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Charlottesville alt-right white nationalist torch rally

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Grug

Member
No time to wait for you. You sit on that fence, and slide into that other side when comfortable just to cover your bases. You're not needed, nor wanted.

You just outed yourself as someone who clicks Reply before reading more than 5 words of the post. Grats!

Regardless, you just keep on alienating people who you share common ground with while you present yourself as a soldier for the cause but do nothing but SPEAK on an internet forum in abstractions about matching violence with violence and then doing absolutely nothing of the sort.

Your approach seems more about how you present individually rather than actually achieving a political goal.

Everything I learned in my political science studies (focusing heavily on grassroots politics and the politics of power imbalance) leaves me convinced to the core that if you spent half as much of the effort you spend on binary ideological grandstanding on actually convincing people who ultimately share the same anti-bigotry stance as you why their particular solutions aren't going to work*, and why your solution (if you actually have one) is the only way forward, you'll actually make a positive contribution.

Doubling down on calling potential allies nazi-cuddlers when they are nothing of the sort is so embarrassingly unproductive that it makes me cringe. Your self-aggrandising "Judean People's Front" vs "People's Front of Judea" rubbish is the absolute antithesis of how you build a political movement. Bring like-minded people along for the ride... although that does involve actually putting together a cogent strategy and roadmap to where it all leads. Like i said, the idea of punching a nazi in the face tickles my reptilian brain stem as much as it does yours, but it isn't really a compehensive political strategy. What does the end-game look like in this political environment where seemingly the president and police force are lining up on the dark side? Convince people. It's very easy to do in the abstract.


*And if you actually read my post before clicking reply you would see that I share the same sentiment.
 
+1

I despise Nazis and disagree with anyone that suggests violence is going to accomplish anything beyond making them look like victims and getting yourself locked up.

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."
 
ff673e8d46.jpg


this both sides narrative espoused by the press is very useful to nazis and useless to anybody else
 
I think the narrative of tonight has already been set and it's that this blatant terrorist attack has been labelled as an unfortunate death that was the result of a tense situation by both sides at the hands of a mentally unstable individual.

I'd love to be proved wrong there. I'd love to say that the Nazi's are willing to listen. Fuck, I think persons should be about reeducation rather than punishment. I just don't think that's ever going to happen. So why should we treat these Nazis different to those in WWII?

I think it is a bit too earlier to go with that, I agree that is the immediate perspective because of Trump. However, because of XYZ politicians taking a different view I think that statement is going to be revised, probably tomorrow.

Nah, I agree with you there. They aren't going to listen, you don't put on Nazi shit and go marching through the streets if you are still open to an discussion on your fucked up views. I guess I'm just thinking that politicians (yes even the Republicans) are starting to grow some balls. We have seen that this past week or so when they insulated Mueller and Sessions. However, if there was some distinct counterattack that might change.
 
not very excited to be going back to america in a few days tbh. I really hope this doesn't spark shit around the country.
canada pls stay pure (ish)
 
I propose the solution of not giving a fuck what a moderate thinks.Lot of good their "moderation" has done in the last 5 years.
Anti-violence outside of self defense and war doesn't mean moderate. Violence is illegal for a reason. You're suddenly realizing it could protect a nazi? Like when we made wild wild west violence illegal no one knew it would protect a nazi, rapist, cannibal, pedo? lol. You use other means to fight unless you go to war. You use prision for certain crimes. What should be done against thought crime, I don't know. Someone just posted It's totally a moderate thing to do is be anti violence but have no solutions. Violence isn't a solution and you guys have no soltions either.

A lot of you are for gun bans. Which is it? WWW or gun bans and less violence?
 

Slayven

Member
"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

*cough*

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=537837
 
A "Moderate" sees what happens here, hears "we should not be dismissing violent civil disobedience" and hmms and haws, while simultaneously offering no solutions or compromises beyond "well figure things out, I'm sure eventually it'll get resolved" as they sit on their hands and play the waiting game, to take posthumous credit for an action they had no hand in.
 
Fuck. I was one of them weak ass liberals saying shit wasn't that bad, calling people Nazis was blowing shit out of proportion. Fuck me, fuck people like me that have sat to the side trying to be the superior liberal that wants to fight with old fashioned democracy. This is fucking scary.
 
I do think it is prudent to remember that these Nazis and white nationalists are receiving lots of heat and condemnation today precisely because of their violence.
 
ff673e8d46.jpg


this both sides narrative espoused by the press is very useful to nazis and useless to anybody else
and yet the same people who were jerking themselves at that article are suspiciously absent when the "violent left's" enemies reveal themselves. again.
How are all these white nationalists in Charlottesville employed? Their employers must not care that they are violent racists
well the driver was from ohio so they might have come from all across the country to support their oppressed brothers and sisters
 
I do think it is prudent to remember that these Nazis and white nationalists are receiving lots of heat and condemnation today precisely because of their violence.

I do think it is important to realize they are receiving hate because they ran over people who were protesting fucking nazis.

This is what nazis do. This is why we need to protest them, arrest them, improve our hate speech laws, and yes - when the law fails - to punch them.
 
Anti-violence outside of self defense and war doesn't mean moderate. Violence is illegal for a reason. You're suddenly realizing it could protect a nazi? Like when we made wild wild west violence illegal no one knew it would protect a nazi, rapist, cannibal, pedo? lol. You use other means to fight unless you go to war. You use prision for certain crimes. What should be done against thought crime, I don't know.
The Nazis at this rally came prepared for war. Dressed for it. Armed themselves for it. They came to spill blood. And they executed that plan. I applaud those on the ground who went out to meet these Nazis in an arena the White terrorists pretty much self designated as a combat zone.
 

D i Z

Member
You just outed yourself as someone who clicks Reply before reading. Grats!

Regardless, you just keep on alienating people who you share common ground with while you present yourself as a soldier for the cause but do nothing but SPEAK on an internet forum in abstractions about matching violence with violence and then doing absolutely nothing of the sort.

Your approach seems more about how you present individually rather than actually achieving a political goal.

Everything I learned in my political science studies (focusing heavily on grassroots politics and the politics of power imbalance) leaves me convinced to the core that if you spent half as much of the effort you spend on binary ideological grandstanding on actually convincing people who ultimately share the same anti-bigotry stance as you why their particular solutions aren't going to work*, and why your solution (if you actually have one) is the only way forward, you'll actually make a positive contribution.

Doubling down on calling potential allies nazi-cuddlers when they are nothing of the sort is so embarrassingly unproductive that it makes me cringe. Your self-aggrandising "Judean People's Front" vs "People's Front of Judea" rubbish is the absolute antithesis of how you build a political movement.




*And if you actually read my post before clicking reply you would see that I share the same sentiment.

Too much bullshit to attempt to address here while I have things to do, So I'll just highlight where you went wrong, and exactly how wrong you are.
 
Canada has hate speech laws that would have prevented this happening in the first place.

Racism doesn't go away when its underground. Its still propagated easily even with arbitrary restrictions of expression. The first amendment is important. Slander, libel and threats of violence. No exceptions.
 
fuck off.

poor white supremacists getting beat :ccccccccccc

fuckin goddamnit. she better get so much shit for that.

"Poor ISIS members getting punched in the face!" This is how people sound to me defending this shit. Pretending they're "moderate". They're not moderate. Nothing moderate about treating White terrorists as anything other than terrorists. You know what that is? Enabling. That's right. You're enabling more right wing terrorism to continue by not calling it blatantly out and treating it for what it is.

No one would protect US born ISIS members to walk down the street, fly ISIS flag and call for the death of Americans. But it's ok for White terrorists to do the same? Why?
 
"Poor ISIS members getting punched in the face!" This is how people sound to me defending this shit. Pretending they're "moderate". They're not moderate. Nothing moderate about treating White terrorists as anything other than terrorists. You know what that is? Enabling. That's right. You're enabling more right wing terrorism to continue by not calling it blatantly out and treating it for what it is.

No one would protect US born ISIS members to walk down the street, fly ISIS flag and call for the death of Americans. But it's ok for White terrorists to do the same? Why?

If these people were advocating Sharia Law instead of FUCKING GENOCIDE (needs to be repeated) they'd all be dead already.
 

D i Z

Member
What a cop out.

I wasn't done. I'll be right back.

Fuck it. let's get it started.

Yeah, and while I am well I'm truly in the "punch a Nazi in the face" camp, I feel a bit sorry for the people in this thread who get called Nazi enablers because they express unease at the idea of all-out escalating violence. Opposing a violent response in itself doesn't mean "we need to reach out to these people", as much as some people in here try to put an equals sign between the two of them.

It is probably fair to argue that those who are still hopeful of a political/legislative solution to the white supremacy plague are naive and blind to the reality, but being anti-Nazi and fundamentally anti-violence aren't inherently mutually exclusive. And I feel sorry for the people here having their characters slammed because of some 2 + 2 = 5 conclusions made by others.

Like I said at the start, I'm sliding into the "punch a nazi" camp but let's not unfairly marginalise our allies who have a different notion of how best to deal with these racist pieces of shit.


You need to explain the first two bolded before we start. The third we can get to in a minute.
 
Anti-violence outside of self defense and war doesn't mean moderate. Violence is illegal for a reason. You're suddenly realizing it could protect a nazi? Like when we made wild wild west violence illegal no one knew it would protect a nazi, rapist, cannibal, pedo? lol. You use other means to fight unless you go to war. You use prision for certain crimes. What should be done against thought crime, I don't know. Someone just posted It's totally a moderate thing to do is be anti violence but have no solutions. Violence isn't a solution and you guys have no soltions either.

A lot of you are for gun bans. Which is it? WWW or gun bans and less violence?

Violence ended Nazism the first time... first through an actual war and then through state violence via arrests and jail time for being one in public.
 
"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

Absolutely nothing in that quote disagrees with nonviolence.

Because King never advocated violence.

There were not rifles at Selma, at least none wielded by the protesters. In Montgomery, King never bombed the buses, or city hall. He never once wavered from his commitment to nonviolence, and that is why he was as successful as he was.

White America has diluted King into an anodyne Mr. Rodgers "let's all get along," figure, but the left's attempt to portray him as a latter day Che Guevera is hardly more historical.
 
I love all the people that keep chiming in with "Violence is not the answer! I don't have any solutions to offer but I need you to know that I know violence isn't the answer!"
 

Grug

Member
So what's your solution?

What is anyone's "solution" at this stage?

Lots of abstract talk about violence which provides plenty of emotional catharsis to myself as it does everyone else, but it's not exactly a well mapped out strategy is it?

But if we are genuinely discussing other short-medium term goals, surely taking back the house in 2018 has to be first on the list right?
 
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