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God of War: the quest to redeem Kratos

Using Kratos in ANOTHER redemption arc in a GOW sequel is not as amibitous nor interesting as creating an entirely new storyline with new characters, IMO.

Sony and Santa Monica know Kratos is a big name and his games sell. It would have been much more ambitious to start from scratch and go a new direction. Hell, maybe a charier that's actually Norse?

I'm not seeing how starting over is considered ambitious. I would consider that the safe option. It is far more interesting to take pre-existing characters and settings and do something new with them. Wiping away everything and starting over is just an easy out for many ips these days.
 

Two Words

Member
I'm not saying it's out of character (though this example, as I said, felt relatively inconvenient), but basically...



they carried that character to a point that playing as him was no longer cathartic, but just icky.



Yes, this entire eye-rolling sequence, where Kratos finally forgives himself for murdering his wife and child, and finds hope. Because "hope is what makes us strong. It is why we are here. It is what we fight with when all else is lost."

Gag me.
You do realize that is what is inside Pandora's Box, right? You know how Pandora's Box is empty but it turns out it had Hope in it from GOW1 released into Kratos? That is the actual story of Pandora's Box.
 

Lady Gaia

Member
This is a truly fantastic interview, and a wonderful insight into what Barlow had in mind while crafting the game. I couldn't agree more with the author's assessment of Kratos' character, and I'm eager to see him grow.

James Bond is debatable, but how is Iron Man an anti-hero?

You mean aside from being a narsissistic drunk? Not your typical hero material, aside from being charming. Even being rich is starting to feel more like anti-hero material at the moment.
 
You mean aside from being a narsissistic drunk? Not your typical hero material, aside from being charming. Even being rich is starting to feel more like anti-hero material at the moment.
That's a character flaw. However, that's not the kind of thing that makes a character an anti-hero.
 

KyleCross

Member
Because there's nothing to address. You've tried to bring this up in multiple GoW threads and people have continually pointed out to you that Kratos kills an innocent person in a horrendous way in the first three games. It was a running theme. What he does in GoW1 is actually far worse than what happens to the Poseidon princess.

Agreed.

Kratos kills many helpless innocents throughout the series so why is this one scene such a problem? I always found people losing their shit over the Poseidon Princess bit to be incredibly sexist. No one would've bated an eye at this scene if this defenseless sex slave was male. Kratos kills defenseless men to proceed in the series and no one ever gets outraged at this. It's always the Poseidon Princess bit that upsets people.
 
Personally I think the change is good.
If you about it, kratos did have character development in the last three man series games. He started as a character fueled by rage and revenge to a character who was completely consumed by those things. This obviously made the character one dimensional but I liked how they tied it nicely with his redemption in gow 3. So I am looking forward to see what else can be done with his character now
 

Oersted

Member
James Bond is debatable, but how is Iron Man an anti-hero?

Bond rapes and slaps women, murders without remorse and gets called out even inuniverse.

Stark drinks, is a womanizer, has a huge ass ego and his ends justify the means often enough backfire. He is way too flawed for a classical hero.
 

Lady Gaia

Member
That's a character flaw. However, that's not the kind of thing that makes a character an anti-hero.

You’re right, of course, though it’s not always a black-and-white divide. There are certainly times in the MCU when his motivations are suspect. I guess that kind of complexity is one of the things I’ve always appreciated about Marvel characters.
 
Trying to redeem Kratos is like trying to redeem Pol Pot, I'm sorry, the premise of this game just makes me side-eye.

Yeah, it's as if Master Roshi gave up on his burusera addiction and became an advocate against women objectification or if Sonic stopped going fast because he had time to reflect and realized that good things in life pass by quickly so he should take it slow and enjoy them. Blargh.
 
Kratos in GOW 1-3 was a gigantic asshole whose only redeeming quality was that Zeus and Ares were supposedly bigger assholes (although we don't really get to see any of that in the midst of Kratos' murder-fest). There's always been this weird dichotomy between the way the writers wanted the player to see Kratos and how Kratos actually behaved in game. In GOW 3, they try to "redeem" him through Pandora, but by the time Pandora is introduced, Kratos has already brought about an Apocalypse due his killing of Gods that controlled the elements governing the world (as well as killed a sex slave FOR LITERALLY NO REASON other than its convenient). That's ignoring the other weird shit he does, like cucking Arphrodite's husband just cause, and killing titans because they want to help him kill Zeus.

He's like Aiden Pierce if Aiden Pierce decided to up his dickishness.

All that said, GOW 3, as a game, is fucking great.
 
Trying to redeem Kratos is like trying to redeem Pol Pot, I'm sorry, the premise of this game just makes me side-eye.
Yeah, it's as if Master Roshi gave up on his burusera addiction and became an advocate against women objectification or if Sonic stopped going fast because he had time to reflect and realized that good things in life pass by quickly so he should take it slow and enjoy them. Blargh.

I think redeeming Kratos is more about redeeming his one note characterization. The first game was interesting but by the time the third game came out he became a one dimensional and static character, which made him shallow and stale. I think people are on board with Kratos this time around because he might have more interesting motivations (than revenge), and more depth and development to his character.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Holy shit. I watched that sequence and am pretty offended/upset about that. Did that sex slave wrong Kratos in any way to deserve that because it didn't seem like it. He couldn't have used one of the dozens of monsters he just brutally slaughtered to jam the crank? I'm surprised there wasn't much internet outrage at this sequence (or if there was, I don't recall it). Nobody called out the developers on this shit? Did Anita even bring it up in any of her videos?
She literally did nothing to him and to the bolded surprisingly no.
 
She literally did nothing to him and to the bolded surprisingly no.
It's really not that surprising. There wasn't much controversy at all because that's who Kratos is. He has always been someone that just uses others to get what he wants. God of War 3 takes his murdering to new extremes, that Poseidon princess bit never felt out of place.
 
It's really not that surprising. There wasn't much controversy at all because that's who Kratos is. He has always been someone that just uses others to get what he wants. God of War 3 takes his murdering to new extremes, that Poseidon princess bit never felt out of place.

true, that. & exactly why i eventually passed on the series half-way through the second game: i realized that that kinda gratuitous stuff wasn't out of place. it, unfortunately, fit right it :) ...
 

A.Romero

Member
Agreed.

Kratos kills many helpless innocents throughout the series so why is this one scene such a problem? I always found people losing their shit over the Poseidon Princess bit to be incredibly sexist. No one would've bated an eye at this scene if this defenseless sex slave was male. Kratos kills defenseless men to proceed in the series and no one ever gets outraged at this. It's always the Poseidon Princess bit that upsets people.

I'm with you. Didn't think about the sexist angle. I think you are onto something.
 
I think redeeming Kratos is more about redeeming his one note characterization. The first game was interesting but by the time the third game came out he became a one dimensional and static character, which made him shallow and stale. I think people are on board with Kratos this time around because he might have more interesting motivations (than revenge), and more depth and development to his character.

Thing is, I thinking adding "another dimension" to Kratos makes him shallower. The games were about revenge and being an uncontrollable douchebag who would stop at nothing until he set on the world on fire. That's who he was, he was never about morality and that's fine, the world is filled with shitty morality metaphors anyway. Pulling a 180 doesn't make him deeper, it makes him uncomfortably out of place being shoehorned into another The Road clone because the developers didn't have the balls to do a new IP.

Tell you one thing though, this story bothers me but ah whatever I can deal with that. I didn't like the camera angle as well, but maybe they will make it work and it will be a viable option for following hack and slashes. It's about variety after at all. But more than anything this game better not have crafting. At the start of every God of War, you were always fucking shit up. If this game starts with talking and walking and rock collecting and menu exploring for materials to make a fucking sandal I'm going to motherfucking flip and I'll put my PS4 in my microwave. Everything has a limit.
 

Wereroku

Member
Thing is, I thinking adding "another dimension" to Kratos makes him shallower. The games were about revenge and being an uncontrollable douchebag who would stop at nothing until he set on the world on fire. That's who he was, he was never about morality and that's fine, the world is filled with shitty morality metaphors anyway. Pulling a 180 doesn't make him deeper, it makes him uncomfortably out of place being shoehorned into another The Road clone because the developers didn't have the balls to do a new IP.

Tell you one thing though, this story bothers me but ah whatever I can deal with that. I didn't like the camera angle as well, but maybe they will make it work and it will be a viable option for following hack and slashes. It's about variety after at all. But more than anything this game better not have crafting. At the start of every God of War, you were always fucking shit up. If this game starts with talking and walking and rock collecting and menu exploring for materials to make a fucking sandal I'm going to motherfucking flip and I'll put my PS4 in my microwave. Everything has a limit.

I mean I kind of look at this game as answering the question of what do you do when your whole life is based on revenge and you succeed. I mean he doesn't get anyone back that he lost and he has basically destroyed his homeland and is near immortal to boot so he can't even kill himself. I expect this game to answer those questions.

Also I doubt it has crafting. The only thing they have talked about is skill trees determining your moves and what the kid can do. The most I see happening collectable wise is maybe the stones in his axe can be found and slotted like materia.
 
Trying to redeem Kratos is like trying to redeem Pol Pot, I'm sorry, the premise of this game just makes me side-eye.
More or less.

If you can make Kratos likable, ok good. I think the gameplay looks terrible (Extremely close over the shoulder camera for melee???) and trying to turn the game into Last of Us is extremely wrongheaded. If I actually liked the series I'd be pissed.
 
How is kratos an anti-hero lol. Guy literally wiped out all of mankind in Greece for his own selfish desire for revenge lol. Even wolverine who is an anti hero have some moral codes. But kratos doesn't care about anyone but him.
 
I mean I kind of look at this game as answering the question of what do you do when your whole life is based on revenge and you succeed. I mean he doesn't get anyone back that he lost and he has basically destroyed his homeland and is near immortal to boot so he can't even kill himself. I expect this game to answer those questions.

Also I doubt it has crafting. The only thing they have talked about is skill trees determining your moves and what the kid can do. The most I see happening collectable wise is maybe the stones in his axe can be found and slotted like materia.

Yeah, you a look at this game more reasonably than I'm doing, I admit that. Honestly I thought his arc was over. He got his revenge and killed the entire world, doesn't feel better, doesn't feel anything at all. Ideally he should have died after God of War 3 through some deus ex machina stuff. They're characters, at some point we should just let them die and that's fine.

But even not being hyped, I am going to buy and play this game fair and square and maybe they will convince me. I am giving Santa Monica the benefit of the doubt because I love the series. It's what got me into pretty much my favorite kind of games. Unless it has crafting. If it has crafting I'm out.

He did not need redemption. His character was a surrogate for the gameplay.

Perfectly how I view this as well. He was a wrecking ball and in the gameplay we all wrecked balls and just had an awesome time putting up combos on everything that was in the screen.
 
He did not need redemption. His character was a surrogate for the gameplay.

Back in 2005, maybe. People are forgetting that it's been a decade since the series started, things have changed, games have changed. I know people have used this "change" when talking about series near and dear to me and why they HAVE to change, so only fair all (not only me) can be affected by this "change". It almost makes me think of that infamous Abe Simpson quote:
itll-happen-to-you.png


I don't doubt people will stop and say, "B-but, that wasn't THAT long ago. it was just like yesterday. N-no, that much time hasn't passed..." then realize the last main installment, GoW3 (and if you want to include Ghost of Sparta, it was also the same year), was released in 2010, SEVEN years ago. Nobody's taste and preference is sacred. The most, I believe, you can hope for is that in 20 years or so, GoW gets a reboot that takes it back to its roots (like Doom).
 
Back in 2005, maybe. People are forgetting that it's been a decade since the series started, things have changed, games have changed. I know people have used this "change" when talking about series near and dear to me and why they HAVE to change, so only fair all (not only me) can be affected by this "change". It almost makes me think of that infamous Abe Simpson quote:
itll-happen-to-you.png


I don't doubt people will stop and say, "B-but, that wasn't THAT long ago. it was just like yesterday. N-no, that much time hasn't passed..." then realize the last main installment, GoW3 (and if you want to include Ghost of Sparta, it was also the same year), was released in 2010, SEVEN years ago. Nobody's taste and preference is sacred. The most, I believe, you can hope for is that in 20 years or so, GoW gets a reboot that takes it back to its roots (like Doom).

I actually think it's the opposite. A lot of game designers tastes are changing. They're getting old. They have kids. They want a God of War games they can play with their kids. It reminds me of how absolutely toothless Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull was, more or less for the same reason.

People get old. They have kids. They become boring people. They make boring art.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Agreed.

Kratos kills many helpless innocents throughout the series so why is this one scene such a problem? I always found people losing their shit over the Poseidon Princess bit to be incredibly sexist. No one would've bated an eye at this scene if this defenseless sex slave was male. Kratos kills defenseless men to proceed in the series and no one ever gets outraged at this. It's always the Poseidon Princess bit that upsets people.
You think if he was male they would've put as much effort into making his chest and dick jiggle? Or would've made a trophy name that basically boils down to regretting not raping him? Context matters, and there is a strong difference in the specific way that scene is framed than something like Kratos slamming a poor bastard's head against the wall cause he was in the way.
 

Stop It

Perfectly able to grasp the inherent value of the fishing game.
A few things to note in this thread.

1: How many people decrying Kratos gaining some human feelings other than blind rage are part of the set who also complain about censorship in the name of "Artistic integrity"? Genuine question. I'd love to see how many people actually mean "I want Devs to make games I like and not what they want" as clearly the Devs want Kratos not to be a totally irredeemable cunt forever.

2: I think I see where the US/EU divide comes here. By 3 I can safely say that most people across the pond were pretty much done with a character that had all the depth of a paddling pool left in the sun for a few weeks. However it's clear that there's a larger pool of customers in America who enjoy being a psychopathic arsehole.

3: With very little exception the issue with Kratos wasn't that he was a cunt, but that he not just reveled in it, but seemed to have no thought or care for the consequence of his actions. It made for an experience where the gamer basically had to basically watch as you committed ever worse acts and see Kratos not giving a fuck.

With all that said, as much as giving Kratos a little more depth is noble, the reactions here may explain why they've kept him on this path for so long.

Aside from the hilarious "Why are we over analysing this it's just a game" non sequitur used earlier, it's also clear that some people struggle with a bit of ambiguity. Not everything is black and white and Kratos can still be a violent, power hungry, vengeance fuelled psycho, only with a hint of self reflection and empathy. Some of the best villains are those who you can at least see why they're villains. Kratos started along that path in GOW 1 but quickly went full arsehole. And yes, Kratos is definitely the villain of the series, which is no bad thing.

I'm interested to see how this game splits opinion and if it even has a shot of gaining back the customers it lost in the EU along the way
 

Two Words

Member
More or less.

If you can make Kratos likable, ok good. I think the gameplay looks terrible (Extremely close over the shoulder camera for melee???) and trying to turn the game into Last of Us is extremely wrongheaded. If I actually liked the series I'd be pissed.

Jesus Christ, not every game or story involving an adventure with a child is being like The Last of Us.
 
2: I think I see where the US/EU divide comes here. By 3 I can safely say that most people across the pond were pretty much done with a character that had all the depth of a paddling pool left in the sun for a few weeks. However it's clear that there's a larger pool of customers in America who enjoy being a psychopathic arsehole.
I dont think it's US/EU thing. Myself as a case in point. I think those who are not liking this are either thinking it would be very hard, if not impossible, for them to even pull this off or not seeing Kratos as a character being able to have such a facet or not liking the shift in design and tone, or a combination of all three
 

Stop It

Perfectly able to grasp the inherent value of the fishing game.
I dont think it's US/EU thing. Myself as a case in point. I think those who are not liking this are either thinking it would be very hard, if not impossible, for them to even pull this off or not seeing Kratos as a character being to have such a facet or not liking the shift in design and tone, or a combination of all three
The developers said as much.

After all, the gameplay itself, QTE fest aside a bit isn't something that usually bombs over here yet the series has steadily underperformed as it went on. Maybe it is coincidence but the tone of the series getting steadily darker may have been the key factor.

It may not and of course the gameplay shift may muddy the waters too much to know if it does make a difference either way but it's still interesting. Especially so as it's not just a journalist opinion of the series, but the developers who seen a potential issue with their series and sought to change it.
 
Personally from what I've seen so far it's just had for me to reconcile this Kratos with old Kratos. I feel like they tried to have their cake and eat it too by keeping Kratos cause he's iconic and using this time skip to essentially turn Kratos into a different character that fits their story. Old Kratos was a fucking supervillain, a selfish coward he sold his soul to Ares and only thought about getting rid of his nightmares as a result of his own actions and lashed out at the world cause they wouldn't go away.

It remains to be seen where the new game ultimately takes Kratos, I just hope Cory remembers Kratos is a fuckhead to the core, after all he cemented it with God of War 2.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Personally from what I've seen so far it's just had for me to reconcile this Kratos with old Kratos. I feel like they tried to have their cake and eat it too by keeping Kratos cause he's iconic and using this time skip to essentially turn Kratos into a different character that fits their story. Old Kratos was a fucking supervillain, a selfish coward he sold his soul to Ares and only thought about getting rid of his nightmares as a result of his own actions and lashed out at the world cause they wouldn't go away.

It remains to be scene where the new game ultimately takes Kratos, I just hope Cory remembers Kratos is a fuckhead to the core, after all he cemented it with God of War 2.
There's a line in the trailer with a woman telling him that his past doesn't matter so not giving me much hope that he'll get what he straight up deserves considering he's a mascot character.
 

Lady Gaia

Member
Thing is, I thinking adding "another dimension" to Kratos makes him shallower.

Not according to any definition of depth that most English speakers would recognize. Here's one definition: "If you say that someone or something has depth, you mean that they have serious and interesting qualities which are not immediately obvious and which you have to think about carefully before you can fully understand them."

Kratos' history and the context you fought your way through were the only interesting things about him. Sure, it was glorious spectacle in a classic summer blockbuster sense but there are only so many sequels you can churn out before the audience gets restless and goes to see something new. Given that you could describe his character in a single word, I think it's utterly fair to say Kratos was entirely without depth.

I actually think it's the opposite. A lot of game designers tastes are changing. They're getting old. They have kids

That's undeniably true, and it's also inevitable. Not a lot of immortals working on games these days.

They want a God of War games they can play with their kids.

That's something I see zero evidence of. It's still an extremely violent game, not toned down in any way that I can see.

People get old. They have kids. They become boring people. They make boring art.

As with all art, you're never going to please everyone. I think it's incredibly smart to realize that the audience who remembers God of War fondly is going to be a decade older than when the series was introduced, and to consider their changing tastes. It's easy to proclaim all art born of a lifetime of experience to be "boring" but it's incredibly dismissive. I happen to find the new direction for God of War refreshingly thoughtful — and I thought Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull was a waste of time.
 

firelogic

Member
I absolutely loved 3 and love the hell out of Kratos (not nostalgia goggles. I played 3 remastered on PS4 recently). Not every character needs to have Superman's virtues and be deeply introspective. Variety is the spice of life as they say. There's always room for a no-nonsense badass that firmly believes the end justifies the means. If he needs to sacrifice innocents to get what he wants, so be it.

BUT, GoW3 does end with him changing his character and acknowledging what he's done and what he means to the world at large. He's not simply a rage-monster.

AND people forget that he was a Spartan. He was bred for war and even amongst his own kind, he was power-hungry. Plus his actions were appropriate. What would you do if a God tricked you into killing your entire family?

I'm highly anticipating the new game but I am going to miss the "classic" GoW formula because there really is no game series like it. The cinemeatic presentation, the fluid combat with those chained blades, the iconic music, Kratos jumping on a cyclops and ripping its eye out as he's bathed in blood is something we're never going to see again. Or Kratos eviscerating a centaur and watching its guts tumble out. Or ripping the head of a God clean off. I'm really going to miss him :'(
 
Kratos jumping on a cyclops and ripping its eye out as he's bathed in blood is something we're never going to see again. Or Kratos eviscerating a centaur and watching its guts tumble out. Or ripping the head of a God clean off. I'm really going to miss him :'(
What makes you think that such violence won't be in the game?

In the trailers and footage, we've seen:
- Kratos crush an enemy's skull so hard that their jaw rips off
- Cleave an enemy in half with his axe
- Tear an enemy in half with his bare hands
- Crush an enemy's head into the ground sending blood splattering everywhere
- Decapitating enemies
and so on
 
I don't understand why people think kratos is suddenly gonna become some super nice guy. Adding depth to his internal struggle doesn't suddenly mean he's going to be talking about his feelings and not butchering people. He'll be making a conscious effort not to be as much an obnoxious prick as in the first games I think, but Barlog has said that he still has the beast within him and everything we've seen of the game has shown Kratos as being a rage filled badass, just one who is self-aware of that and is conflicted. Not sure why people wouldn't want Kratos to be a more interesting character either, which again has nothing to do with the amount of murderous rage he does or does not display. I think most people can agree that Joel from the Last of Us was a "badass" and tough dude, but his more nuanced internal conflict made him 100x more interesting.
 

Gold_Loot

Member
I think a lot of people forget that in old Greek mythos, human life didn't hold much weight with the gods. They were more like pets or "play things" to them. With Kratos being a demigod, combined with his depression and anger, it makes more sense in that context.
 
Personally from what I've seen so far it's just had for me to reconcile this Kratos with old Kratos. I feel like they tried to have their cake and eat it too by keeping Kratos cause he's iconic and using this time skip to essentially turn Kratos into a different character that fits their story. Old Kratos was a fucking supervillain, a selfish coward he sold his soul to Ares and only thought about getting rid of his nightmares as a result of his own actions and lashed out at the world cause they wouldn't go away.

It remains to be scene where the new game ultimately takes Kratos, I just hope Cory remembers Kratos is a fuckhead to the core, after all he cemented it with God of War 2.

now who does that remind me of? :) ...

130304135858-pkg-boulden-uk-livingstone-lara-croft-reset-00021427-story-top.jpg
 
Not according to any definition of depth that most English speakers would recognize. Here's one definition: "If you say that someone or something has depth, you mean that they have serious and interesting qualities which are not immediately obvious and which you have to think about carefully before you can fully understand them."

Kratos' history and the context you fought your way through were the only interesting things about him. Sure, it was glorious spectacle in a classic summer blockbuster sense but there are only so many sequels you can churn out before the audience gets restless and goes to see something new. Given that you could describe his character in a single word, I think it's utterly fair to say Kratos was entirely without depth.

Gee way to cut out the rest of my post where I explained what I meant by that. My point is that "depth" had nothing to do with the character, he wasn't a thinker and didn't offer any moral catharsis we westerners are so fucking obsessed with. He was the lead in a simple revenge story and it was all about gameplay. Adding "depth" (and I should make it clear that I don't think it's actually depth at all) makes him shallower IMO because it misses that point in favor of some ham-fisted righteousness tale about the integrity and rectitude of a multi layered fucking father figure with a troubled past. That dimension doesn't make him deeper, it makes him out of place in yet another The Road story.
 
Back in 2005, maybe. People are forgetting that it's been a decade since the series started, things have changed, games have changed. I know people have used this "change" when talking about series near and dear to me and why they HAVE to change, so only fair all (not only me) can be affected by this "change". It almost makes me think of that infamous Abe Simpson quote:
itll-happen-to-you.png


I don't doubt people will stop and say, "B-but, that wasn't THAT long ago. it was just like yesterday. N-no, that much time hasn't passed..." then realize the last main installment, GoW3 (and if you want to include Ghost of Sparta, it was also the same year), was released in 2010, SEVEN years ago. Nobody's taste and preference is sacred. The most, I believe, you can hope for is that in 20 years or so, GoW gets a reboot that takes it back to its roots (like Doom).
My issue is Sony's homogenization. God of War, an action series, is trying to be The Last of Us -- because gameplay is not as important to most gamers. They would rather have a 'strong' narrative for muh immersion.
 
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