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Official 1up Yours GDC Week Thread of Resistance Hatin', Babbling Vagabonds

evlcookie

but ever so delicious
FartOfWar said:
And please no more reducing the argument to Half-Life vs all. Where is this notion of "there's HL and then there's gaming" even coming from?

I dont mean to sound like an asshat, I am a huge fan of GFW and so on, but this notion comes straight from you. HL is always your example for -anything- great, especially story telling. You must have mentioned it 5 + times on yesterday's 1up yours in relation to story and you have mentioned it on previous podcasts. It just sounds like you believe HL was gods gift to gaming.

Of course im sure you dont feel that way, but when HL is the only real example you seem to give just about every time, well thats where the notion comes from.

Sorry Shawn, dont hate me :(
 

FartOfWar

Banned
evlcookie said:
I dont mean to sound like an asshat, I am a huge fan of GFW and so on, but this notion comes straight from you. HL is always your example for -anything- great, especially story telling. You must have mentioned it 5 + times on yesterday's 1up yours in relation to story and you have mentioned it on previous podcasts. It just sounds like you believe HL was gods gift to gaming.

Of course im sure you dont feel that way, but when HL is the only real example you seem to give just about every time, well thats where the notion comes from.

Sorry Shawn, dont hate me :(

Word. I'll draw on Out of this World, Ico, BioShock, Portal, Deus Ex, Psychonauts (good god, this game really nailed it in parts), and others for variety.
 
I don't get why people say Half Life 2 doesn't have cut-scenes. Sure you have control, but the game does occasionally lock you into a room and talk to you for several minutes, with the added disadvantage of never being able to skip that crap on a second playthrough. Just because you can move the camera/character so they don't see the scripted event taking place behind them doesn't make the content any less cutscene-y.

Look at Way of the Samurai, the scripted events in that game are truly interactive: you can ignore them (walking completely away), observe, interfere on either side of a conflict, or run straight in swinging.
 

FartOfWar

Banned
Y2Kev said:
I haven't defended MGS at all, so I definitely haven't thrown that word around.

So tell me what you think I should have gotten from the twist?

Well from your quote--""Yeah, we can build this great narrative and deliver it without ever taking control from you, but when we really need to hammer this point home, you don't have the decision to do anything."--I take it that you think the twist was intended to hammer home the idea that BioShock is 'about building great narrative and delivering without ever taking control from you,' correct?
 

evlcookie

but ever so delicious
FartOfWar said:
Word. I'll draw on Out of this World, Ico, BioShock, Portal, Deus Ex, Psychonauts (good god, this game really nailed it in parts), and others for variety.

God Psychonauts was so much fun, what a strange game, a character with an obsession for bacon is an instant win.
 

TTG

Member
I AM JOHN! said:
Okay, so I was being hyperbolic and simplistic (I was on my iPhone :\), but the gist of my point was that I'm more inclined to agree with Shane on this. Obviously, if you can do a scene in game and convey it well enough, it's going to be just as engaging, if not more so, than a cutscene ever can be (Half-Life 2, and Assassin's Creed to an extent, come to mind). The problem is, like Amy was saying, there's certain concessions you have to make in this that can be a huge detriment to the game; as much as I'm totally gay for Valve, I have no connection whatsoever to Gordon Freeman, and as a character, he's as forgettable to me as Master Chief, or GTA Guy, or any other faceless avatar in a game. Having a connection to Gordon's not the point in Half-Life, obviously, but as someone who cares about how characters are established, be they NPCs or the player character, I'd personally rather someone do a cutscene that takes me out of the action than just have me there in a scene, feeling disconnected in a completely different way. Then again, I think this all kinda taps into the big problem, being that most story writers and designers in the gaming industry are talentless hacks. :|

Sorry again about the shitty post earlier; we cool now? :(


In the conventional way, you play a character through a level or segment then watch what happens to this character in the way the story develops(through a cutscene). As soon as there is a major point in the story the player separates from that character. HL2 on the other hand tries to never divorce you from Gordon. YOU are Gordon and what your motivations and emotions are make up this character. That's why he has to be a blank canvas. And that's part of the immersion. When done right you feel like you are a part of this universe and YOUR actions drive the game forward. Where in a game full of cutscenes you're just getting to the next check point to see what will happen to this main character and where he will take you for the next level.

It's basically like saying: I'm gonna go save this damsel in distress vs. I'm gonna pass this level and watch the main character save this damsel in distress.
 

Barrett2

Member
FartOfWar said:
I hope you weren't one of the people throwing the word postmodern around as if its a guarantee of quality, as the irony is thick here. BioShock's twist is thoroughly postmodern, only you've missed it entirely (if I'm reading you right). And read this with a smiley. I'm not in a pissy mood at all. Just saying.

And I agree. Bioshock made plenty of mistakes, incredible game that is.

People toss around the term 'postmodern' with reckless abandon, not knowing what it actually means or implies. 'Postmodern' is abused almost as much as the word 'meta.' More often than not, if someone uses the word meta, quit listening.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
FartOfWar said:
Well from your quote--""Yeah, we can build this great narrative and deliver it without ever taking control from you, but when we really need to hammer this point home, you don't have the decision to do anything."--I take it that you think the twist was intended to hammer home the idea that BioShock is 'about building great narrative and delivering without ever taking control from you,' correct?

I don't necessarily mean that the central point of the game was to prove that this was possible or anything, but I'd definitely say that the most powerful scene in the game is basically a cutscene.
 

dfyb

Banned
FartOfWar said:
Psychonauts (good god, this game really nailed it in parts)
....so now you like cutscenes?

i'm trying to get you to solidify your stance. you seem to sorta float around. in one conversation you campaign that cutscenes are bad and then you pick out a game that uses cutscenes and say that it nails it.
 

n1n9tean

Banned
It would have been nice to hear Jaffe on 1UY. But, then again, he was going to be on the "one console future" show and well.....that's an interesting (I'll definitely listen, sure) but an overall useless conversation IMO.
 

TTG

Member
TelemachusD said:
I don't get why people say Half Life 2 doesn't have cut-scenes. Sure you have control, but the game does occasionally lock you into a room and talk to you for several minutes, with the added disadvantage of never being able to skip that crap on a second playthrough. Just because you can move the camera/character so they don't see the scripted event taking place behind them doesn't make the content any less cutscene-y.

Look at Way of the Samurai, the scripted events in that game are truly interactive: you can ignore them (walking completely away), observe, interfere on either side of a conflict, or run straight in swinging.

There's a balance going on there. Ultimately the game should immerse you enough that you wouldn't want to skip these events in the first place. If in the middle of a conversation between Alyx and a Vortigun you decide you want to shoot one of them in the head or go on about your business the game was doing something wrong way before you came to a realization that it's a cutscene... except in first person view.
 
dfyb said:
....so now you like cutscenes?

i'm trying to get you to solidify your stance. you seem to sorta float around. in one conversation you campaign that cutscenes are bad and then you pick out a game that uses cutscenes and say that it nails it.
He's citing the parts that don't use cut scenes. For example, when you're inside the brain of the levitation teacher, and you run off to the side of the stage. At which point she tells you that 'It's a mood killer sort of place'(Not an exact quote). If you punch the chest and jump in, you're led into a room, where you're locked inside a cage and burning children are running around you, asking for help. That room and setting are enough to make her go from the level of a mindless NPC, to one that you empathize with.
 
TTG said:
There's a balance going on there. Ultimately the game should immerse you enough that you wouldn't want to skip these events in the first place. If in the middle of a conversation between Alyx and a Vortigun you decide you want to shoot one of them in the head or go on about your business the game was doing something wrong way before you came to a realization that it's a cutscene... except in first person view.

Exactly. I think the woman from Naughty Dog made a good point about Half Life giving you the freedom to break the narrative's effectiveness, but ultimately if you want to throw a can and go in the corner in Half Life 2 you clearly don't really care about the story all that much. And if you're that way inclined, why force you to be sitting with your hands off the keyboard at that point?
 
I feel like ICO was the only game I have ever played where the gameplay told a well-defined narrative, instead of feeling like the narrative was shoe-horned into the gameplay.

Of course, I also like the stories that are injected, movie-like, into the game (FF, MGS, HL, etc), but ICO is certainly my standard against which all other game-based stories are judged.

P.S. I really like-to hypenate my-sentences apparently.
 

dLMN8R

Member
Dude, The Milkman Conspiracy level in Psychonauts is one of the most fantastic levels ever created. I'm in the middle of playing through the game for my first time, and it's awesome!
 
TheGreatDave said:
Exactly. I think the woman from Naughty Dog made a good point about Half Life giving you the freedom to break the narrative's effectiveness, but ultimately if you want to throw a can and go in the corner in Half Life 2 you clearly don't really care about the story all that much. And if you're that way inclined, why force you to be sitting with your hands off the keyboard at that point?
But if you are inclined to ignore the story, or you've already played the game through once or twice, the game IS making you sit on your hands. If it was a cut-scene you'd be able to skip it (in most games). It's forced unavoidable narrative, and being able to mindlessly run around the room while waiting for the door to unlock doesn't change that.
 

Tutomos

Member
I think cut-scenes are for motivation to finish a game. I skipped them in games like Mario and Halo becasuse I kinda know where the story is going. I'm saving the princess or saving the world it doesn't matter. I just want to get to the game.

There is one game I thought was great telling a story, that is The Darkness. I was motivated to go on because I cared for what happened to the characters. I want my revenge.
 
TheGreatDave said:
Exactly. I think the woman from Naughty Dog made a good point about Half Life giving you the freedom to break the narrative's effectiveness, but ultimately if you want to throw a can and go in the corner in Half Life 2 you clearly don't really care about the story all that much. And if you're that way inclined, why force you to be sitting with your hands off the keyboard at that point?

I don't think that's quite accurate. I just think that an entirely in-game in-perspective tends not to be as gripping as a good traditional cutscene.

There are now a few examples of films out there that are all 'one take'. Many of them are interesting exercises in style but don't tell the film as effectively as traditional editing would.
 

TTG

Member
TelemachusD said:
But if you are inclined to ignore the story, or you've already played the game through once or twice, the game IS making you sit on your hands. If it was a cut-scene you'd be able to skip it (in most games). It's forced unavoidable narrative, and being able to mindlessly run around the room while waiting for the door to unlock doesn't change that.

So you're saying that this way of storytelling is inferior to cutscenese because you can't skip them? rly? Or that games with cutscenes DON'T have forced unavoidable narrative?

Either way, being able to skip a relatively short forced event(especially by some RPG and metal gear standards) is so far down the list of what's important in making a game with a great atmosphere/story that I don't think it's even a concern for developers.
 

Tendo

Member
I do agree Shane sounded childish in his rush to defend MGS. As soon as Shawn mentioned it Shane busted loose. Garnett quickly pointed out Shane's bias but it was glossed.

I feel cutscenes are fine when used ONLY when necessary. Least restrictive setting. When you are playing MGS and there is a cutscene or codec every few feet it kills discovery and momentum the gameplay had. I do agree with whoever above said that by giving you control with the boss the impact is greater. Had the cut scene decided for you, it wouldn't have made as big an impact.

And I certainly agree with Amy on Assassin's Creed. I remember either Jade or Patrice mentioning you could walk around during the cut scenes as some sort of selling point. All I did was wander around and try to break the scene or mess with people. Why couldn't I jump my target in seen? Why seemingly give control? That was really the least of my problems with that game though.

I think the best example of story through gameplay would be the ending of SotC. Rather than have that last "battle" play out via cutscene, which I think most developers would have done, you played it yourself. You not only saw the ending, but were forced to fight against it, against the fate you have made for yourself. By playing that ending you also got a sense of empathy for the collosi you had slain. On the flip side there is no alternate path or ending, try as you might the game only allows one path, much like MGS3.
 

TTG

Member
Leidenfrost said:
I don't think that's quite accurate. I just think that an entirely in-game in-perspective tends not to be as gripping as a good traditional cutscene.

There are now a few examples of films out there that are all 'one take'. Many of them are interesting exercises in style but don't tell the film as effectively as traditional editing would.

Maybe I'm interpreting your post wrong, I don't know. The point I was trying to make is that in game perspective cutscenes are not just a style the developer picks over the traditional way because they think it's only better from a director's point of view.

It has a lot to do with the fact that they don't want to ever separate the player from the main character in the game.
 

noonche

Member
Y2Kev said:
I don't necessarily mean that the central point of the game was to prove that this was possible or anything, but I'd definitely say that the most powerful scene in the game is basically a cutscene.

But the whole point of taking away control from you during that sequence was to reinforce the fact that you where never really in control. That statement on control and how illusory it is in the game is the most postmodern thing about Bioshock. In a game that is ostensibly about choices, Bioshock is entirely linear and devoid of any choices that have any meaning (except for the little sisters) and it is this fact that the scene with Ryan attempts to drive home.
 

Rlan

Member
Prey is another example of an In-Game, player controlled cutscene. Sure, it didn't have a whole lot of a story to it, but what was there was made a whole lot better purely because you were never outside of your body
haha see what I did there
and never out of control.

The beginning scene where you're just fucking around, changing TV channels, playing Poker, then suddenly the Aliens come and blow shit up was fun.
 

Kittonwy

Banned
Not sure why games can't tell a good story with cutscenes or in-game narrative or both. Not all games need to follow HL-2 or Bioshock, if the developer can tell a good story with whatever tools they choose to use, what's the fucking problem?
Indifferent2.gif


Sometimes a game works like HL-2 where I'm in the shoes of the main character basically everybody is reacting to me, sometimes I like having cutscenes where I can SEE my character actually interacting physically and conversing with another character, expressing various emotions, and it doesn't always work in a first-person perspective where I'm just fucking around by throwing things at people while a NPC is trying to tell me something, because you never see your character, in a way it lacks that feedback, the feedback in Bioshock is basically seeing other characters' reactions and looking at your hands, it's different from real life because you can feel your own brows furrowing, whereas in a game the player himself might feel angry but other than having clenched fists, in a first-person perspective the feedback is not there.

Uncharted did a great job of having both cutscenes and in-game narrative, the interplay between Drake and Elena could never have been as strong by allowing the player to just run around doing other things, one can see and feel Drake's emotions because it's being expressed on screen. HALO3 did a good job combining the first-person perspective and actual cutscenes where the player can just sit back and enjoy watching things play out, ICO and SOTC have cutscenes too, just as long as cutscenes aren't overly long and overdone and they can get the fucking job done. The problem one runs into is having overly long cutscenes basically forcing the player to sit for an extended period of time without being engaged in gameplay, but cutscenes are a form of pay-off. It's like achieving a goal in a FPS and something blows up, at the end of the day it's all about the pay-off.
Indifferent2.gif
 

zenbot

Member
It was painful to hear Garnett, Bryan and Shane just not get Shawn's arguments for gaming developing a storytelling language of its own, particularly after his absolutely perfect analogy of having a movie pause every 30 minutes to scroll a heap of text. I had to keep from yelling at nobody after Shane's arguing that, "I think you want everything to be high art!" NO THAT'S NOT IT AT FUCKIN' ALL. Games just need to develop methods of storytelling appropriate to the medium! Whether those methods are used to create high art or low is irrelevant. Hell, the example that is always trotted out as an example of how to use the medium to effectively tell a story — Half Life — is not high art at all; when it comes down to it it is pretty standard sci-fi. It is its use and recognition of the medium that really sets it apart.

It was great that Amy Hennig did get it, though, and I think that she's correct in that games are limited by the technology available. I hope that as those limitations are removed we see developers push the medium harder than they have so far.
 
TelemachusD said:
But if you are inclined to ignore the story, or you've already played the game through once or twice, the game IS making you sit on your hands. If it was a cut-scene you'd be able to skip it (in most games). It's forced unavoidable narrative, and being able to mindlessly run around the room while waiting for the door to unlock doesn't change that.

True enough, but when given the option at least in Half Life I can entertain myself if I'm bored with the narrative. It is different to be able to move around and interact as opposed to just watching a cutscene.

zenbot said:
It was painful to hear Garnett, Bryan and Shane just not get Shawn's arguments for gaming developing a storytelling language of its own, particularly after his absolutely perfect analogy of having a movie pause every 30 minutes to scroll a heap of text.

Seriously. It's not about whether or not you think MGS has fantastic direction and writing (lolz) it's about it not being anything more but one medium's language being put in another medium.
 
zenbot said:
It was painful to hear Garnett, Bryan and Shane just not get Shawn's arguments for gaming developing a storytelling language of its own, particularly after his absolutely perfect analogy of having a movie pause every 30 minutes to scroll a heap of text. I had to keep from yelling at nobody after Shane's arguing that, "I think you want everything to be high art!" NO THAT'S NOT IT AT FUCKIN' ALL. Games just need to develop methods of storytelling appropriate to the medium! Whether those methods are used to create high art or low is irrelevant. Hell, the example that is always trotted out as an example of how to use the medium to effectively tell a story — Half Life — is not high art at all; when it comes down to it it is pretty standard sci-fi. It is its use and recognition of the medium that really sets it apart.

It was great that Amy Hennig did get it, though, and I think that she's correct in that games are limited by the technology available. I hope that as those limitations are removed we see developers push the medium harder than they have so far.

Yeah I was really disappointed when Shawn let Shane derail him like that. I wanted them to actually argue about Metal Gear's storytelling. That podcast was such a cock tease, I really wanted them to bring the storytelling argument to a close.

I don't completely agree with Shawn's call for video games to develop their own voice. This is because I do enjoy games that tell their story through cut scenes, and as of this moment there is no developer that can make a game that tells a story which is of an epic scale without cut scenes.
 
Im not sure why its either or...third person cutscenes certainly have a place in the genre...there are different ways of immersing a player...I have always enjoyed ff cutscenes and while games like HL2 can tell a rivetting story without taking breaks from the gameplay, I find the story set pieces alot less impressive...

However, with advances in technology the potential is incredible...I think games should have both, I would love to see some interactive story elements in ff games
 
TTG said:
So you're saying that this way of storytelling is inferior to cutscenese because you can't skip them? rly? Or that games with cutscenes DON'T have forced unavoidable narrative?

Either way, being able to skip a relatively short forced event(especially by some RPG and metal gear standards) is so far down the list of what's important in making a game with a great atmosphere/story that I don't think it's even a concern for developers.
People always complain about unskippable cut-scenes (especially after you've seen them already). I'd just like to be able to skip Half Life 2's locked-in-a-room-scenes like I can with any of say SotC's cut-scenes.

I'm not saying cut-scenes are superior to in-game events. Whether or not to have cut-scenes often depends on the type of game and how much focus and control the developer wants on certain story elements.

I honestly don't think that they're all that different IF the game doesn't give you any options other than a) watch cut-scene / pay attention to in-game event, or b) skip cut-scene / ignore in-game event. If the only method of interacting while this in-game storytelling is going on is to look or not look with no effect on the consequences either way, what's the point?
 
FartOfWar said:
Well your gut rumbling because you're predisposed to agree with someone's sentiment is hardly taking the piss out of anything. When your argument is the one above (I agree with Shane, I love watching MGS cutscenes and that means they're every bit as effective as any other conceivable strategy) there never will be any taking the piss out of anything. It's no different than me saying I don't like band X for these reasons and then you saying well yeah I love band X cos they feel soooo right. It's not a winnable debate in either direction (at least conducted as such).

And please no more reducing the argument to Half-Life vs all. Where is this notion of "there's HL and then there's gaming" even coming from?
You're misinterpreting me, Shawn (which is my fault for posting a shitty reactionary post that didn't actually convey what I was trying to say, but regardless). I'm not arguing "Half-Life vs. all" - I'm just using HL because it's one of the few games I think gets it almost perfectly right, since any other game I can think of either pulls you out of the action for plot points (Deus Ex, Elder Scrolls, STALKER) or the narrative is so throwaway or poorly-told that you don't give a shit (Call of Duty and Assassin's Creed).

Bioshock did it well too, I think, but for completely different reasons.
 
TTG said:
Maybe I'm interpreting your post wrong, I don't know. The point I was trying to make is that in game perspective cutscenes are not just a style the developer picks over the traditional way because they think it's only better from a director's point of view.

The point I'm trying to make is that all in-game, in-control storytelling is extremely limiting in the grand scheme of things. I'm not saying that limiting is bad--in many instances art thrives on limitation--but not every type of story that one wants to tell works well with in-game, in-control mechanics.


It has a lot to do with the fact that they don't want to ever separate the player from the main character in the game.

Now that I don't fully agree with. What does that even mean? Does it mean games should always have to be in the first person perspective or risk alienating the player from the character? Does that mean that the character should have no dialogue and as little a personality as possible because a fully developed character might risk the player's self-identification? I think that kind of attitude underestimates the ability of a player to experience a narrative.

Full disclosure: I find Half-Life 2 sort of narratively infuriating in a way. Piloting a voiceless cipher from point A to Z as the game pulls a series of repetitive goal bait-and-switches in such an obvious way is not my idea of a grand time. The fact that Freeman has no personality to speak of doesn't draw me into the game, in fact it sort of makes me wonder why I should care. And that's fine, that's just my personal preference.

And thus lies the crux of the problem: "Personal Preference". There is no magic bullet mechanic or style which will many any and every game objectively better.
 
What about Psychonauts, where we have a game that rewards players with cutscenes and jokes for exploring the environment, creating a more cohesive game world?

It's not either/or with cutscenes, but it's all about their implementation into the game. What's swallowable without pulling gamers out of the game, but long enough to be a meaningful exchange?
 
I'm really glad that Shawn in on 1upyours to even out the discussions there. And I agree with most of what you're saying, Shawn, though I think that HL is still very limiting in its storytelling. It did revolutionize storytelling in games, but since you're basically a mute who cannot interact with characters or environments other than by shooting stuff and using certain kinds of equipment, the main difference between the storytelling in a HL game and say, Uncharted, is that you're the cameraman and happen to be the main character as well.

Something like a complex conversation system (think Facade), I think, is the future of interactive storytelling in games. When Alyx and Eli talk to me and all I can do is point a gun at them it feels really odd. And until we get there we have to use certain crutches like cut scenes to aid the story, do what HL does and compromise things like the main character's personality (since Freeman is just the mute cameraman), or use a more subtle mechanics and control-based approach like ICO did so well.

But I'm with you, and I look forward to games being able to move away from putting cut scenes in between gameplay. Just like film got away from trying to be like stage, and artsy photography got away from trying to emulate painting. Film and photography broke free of that when the tech got better and artists started thinking about the inherent quality of those media. I bet we'll look back at games in a similar light.
 

tino

Banned
Going back to the shawn/cut scene thing. Even if, for the sake of argument, cut scene is unnecesary and not a good narrative device for gaming, using the most tell told, or at least one of the most beloved cut scenes (MSG3 boss ending) to argue against the cut scene is just...trolling.

Now I am not going to call Shawn a PC fanboy, because that's easy. I am convinced Shawn deep down inside, has so much sarcasm that there is no space for empathy.

Basically Shawn Elliot is the gaming David Spade.
 

zenbot

Member
tino said:
Going back to the shawn/cut scene thing. Even if, for the sake of argument, cut scene is unnecesary and not a good narrative device for gaming, using the most tell told, or at least one of the most beloved cut scenes (MSG3 boss ending) to argue against the cut scene is just...trolling.

Now I am not going to call Shawn a PC fanboy, because that's easy. I am convinced Shawn deep down inside, has so much sarcasm that there is no space for empathy.

Basically Shawn Elliot is the gaming David Spade.
Babble on, you vagabond!
 

TTG

Member
Leidenfrost said:
The point I'm trying to make is that all in-game, in-control storytelling is extremely limiting in the grand scheme of things. I'm not saying that limiting is bad--in many instances art thrives on limitation--but not every type of story that one wants to tell works well with in-game, in-control mechanics.




Now that I don't fully agree with. What does that even mean? Does it mean games should always have to be in the first person perspective or risk alienating the player from the character? Does that mean that the character should have no dialogue and as little a personality as possible because a fully developed character might risk the player's self-identification? I think that kind of attitude underestimates the ability of a player to experience a narrative.

Full disclosure: I find Half-Life 2 sort of narratively infuriating in a way. Piloting a voiceless cipher from point A to Z as the game pulls a series of repetitive goal bait-and-switches in such an obvious way is not my idea of a grand time. The fact that Freeman has no personality to speak of doesn't draw me into the game, in fact it sort of makes me wonder why I should care. And that's fine, that's just my personal preference.

And thus lies the crux of the problem: "Personal Preference". There is no magic bullet mechanic or style which will many any and every game objectively better.

I agree. What I said earlier was that I don't think storytelling through cutscenes will or should be phased out. There's definitely not one mechanic or style in which to make a game. It just seems to me like a style that I think lends itself very well to videogames(and may be unique to videogames) is being severly underused/underdeveloped.
 

TTG

Member
skip said:
I have a feeling brian jarrard won't be able to make it to 1UPY due to scheduling conflict


Nooooooooooooooooooooooo

The Bungie guy was the one I was looking forward to the most.
 

colinp

Banned
This was a fantastic podcast. If they all hold up this well this is going to be one hell of a week.

Keep up the great work everyone!
 

FartOfWar

Banned
Kittonwy said:
Not sure why games can't tell a good story with cutscenes or in-game narrative or both. Not all games need to follow HL-2 or Bioshock, if the developer can tell a good story with whatever tools they choose to use, what's the fucking problem?
Indifferent2.gif


Sometimes a game works like HL-2 where I'm in the shoes of the main character basically everybody is reacting to me, sometimes I like having cutscenes where I can SEE my character actually interacting physically and conversing with another character, expressing various emotions, and it doesn't always work in a first-person perspective where I'm just fucking around by throwing things at people while a NPC is trying to tell me something, because you never see your character, in a way it lacks that feedback, the feedback in Bioshock is basically seeing other characters' reactions and looking at your hands, it's different from real life because you can feel your own brows furrowing, whereas in a game the player himself might feel angry but other than having clenched fists, in a first-person perspective the feedback is not there.

Uncharted did a great job of having both cutscenes and in-game narrative, the interplay between Drake and Elena could never have been as strong by allowing the player to just run around doing other things, one can see and feel Drake's emotions because it's being expressed on screen. HALO3 did a good job combining the first-person perspective and actual cutscenes where the player can just sit back and enjoy watching things play out, ICO and SOTC have cutscenes too, just as long as cutscenes aren't overly long and overdone and they can get the fucking job done. The problem one runs into is having overly long cutscenes basically forcing the player to sit for an extended period of time without being engaged in gameplay, but cutscenes are a form of pay-off. It's like achieving a goal in a FPS and something blows up, at the end of the day it's all about the pay-off.
Indifferent2.gif

You're not getting it. If that's the pay off, many of us are saying we want our money back.
 

FartOfWar

Banned
dfyb said:
....so now you like cutscenes?

i'm trying to get you to solidify your stance. you seem to sorta float around. in one conversation you campaign that cutscenes are bad and then you pick out a game that uses cutscenes and say that it nails it.

I keep running headfirst into this "you can get with this, or you can get with that" mindset when I honestly don't think I ought to be. When Psychonauts creates character through its very levels, their content, and the actions you perform within each, it's nailing it. Each level tells a story of a characters history and state of mind. So liking that means I loooove me some cutscenes? Besides it's not even a case where I simply cannot stomach any cutscene ever. We're entertaining a larger discussion about the state of game design and where its going, how it relates to other media and such.
 
FartOfWar said:
What of it?

It's high time I take Amy's advice regarding message boards. Fuckin A.

Shawn, no worries, some people are retarded. Don't leave because of them =( We still love the double futa furries. <3
 

skip

Member
just finished 1up yours (robert bowling from IW flew solo, we'll have to get the bungie guys next time for sure). cutting GFW next.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
FartOfWar said:
What of it?

It's high time I take Amy's advice regarding message boards. Fuckin A.

First, I really, really hope I'm not upsetting or irritating you. That is not my goal at all, and if you feel I am misinterpreting you, then please just let me know.

Second, like Amy said, if you're going to make me sit through a linear, cutscene driven narrative, make it good. I agree that non-interactive cutscenes in general don't necessarily leverage the strengths of the format, but since we're just talking about cutscenes now anyway, they better be good if they are going to exist at all. Otherwise they are just an abstraction blocking gameplay.

I don't think you would have skipped the cutscenes in Halo 3 necessarily if they weren't really awful. And they are...they are really bad and they aren't even really visually appealing. But something like Heavenly Sword (which I know you might not have played) has really well animated and acted cutscenes.

I realize I'm way off what was being discussed before, but I was just focusing on what Amy said-- make them worthwhile.
 
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