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How Call of Duty: WW2 handles swastikas and female soldiers

Iztli

Member
Yeah I totally get that. However nowadays it just feels forced to have a woman/woman lead in almost every game or movie.

What's gonna be the next hollywood/marketing trend in 5 years? I wouldn't be talking about this if my girlfriend wouldn't complain about it every time.
Its not that they are forcing them into lead characters. Its the fact that one notices this because it goes against everything that has been the norm for decades. People complain about it because they have been conditioned to only accept men as lead roles and not women. Implicit Bias... Also sexism.
 
I'm strongly pro-inclusion, but strongly against cleansing the Nazi image.

My suggestion: all players, from their perspective, play for the Allies. Think America's Army; the enemy always plays the Axis. Players can now customize their avatars and represent a spectrum of humanity without burying the racially coded violence and slaughter perpetrated by the Nazis.

Racial and gender diversity fit great into an escapist WW II shooter. Just not on the Axis side.

Agreed.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Yeah I totally get that. However nowadays it just feels forced to have a woman/woman lead in almost every game or movie.
I genuinely don't think you're paying attention to either the film or the game industry. Because that statement is incredibly inaccurate. Also gotta love the logic that straight and male is the default and that anything deviating from that is "forced."

What's gonna be the next hollywood/marketing trend in 5 years? I wouldn't be talking about this if my girlfriend wouldn't complain about it every time.
Complain about what?
 
Yeah I totally get that. However nowadays it just feels forced to have a woman/woman lead in almost every game or movie.

What's gonna be the next hollywood/marketing trend in 5 years? I wouldn't be talking about this if my girlfriend wouldn't complain about it every time.
You must not be paying attention if you think it's in any way forced. The past few years devs have has to fight publishers to include women as player characters in many games.

It's a realignment. We are going from games having main/player characters that are 99% men to something more equitable if not perfectly even yet.
 
Because women play video games too. And if we're gonna tolerate magical UAVs in WW2 that reveal the position of the enemy that are activated via killstreaks then by god seeing a woman shouldn't be the thing breaking your immersion.


This game isn't art, it isn't educational, it's entertainment, plain and simple. And that's not a slight, good entertainment is immensely hard to produce.
It's digital soft air re-enactment. To cry foul over inclusive measures is not missing the point, but the fucking solar system.

My brother is with a huge european Viking re-enactment group, and they have black guys and gals, indians, Poles, Moroccans, all in Viking or Rus Getup, and no one bats an eye or cries about historical accuracy. It's fun, it's a hobby, and fuck everyone that wants to deny people to participate or to feel welcome.
 

Alienous

Member
I get it I guess. Call of Duty Multiplayer has always been a 'toybox' of sorts, with things like weapons appearing in places where they never saw action.

I also understand, and probably prefer, the Battlefield 1 approach of trying to maintain a context to the extent that it doesn't hinder gameplay. Trying as best as possible to achieve visual and audio authenticity.
 

autoduelist

Member
Because Facism is evil.
And Socialism, in its purest form, is about equality.

All political systems have countless examples in history of those in power using said power to abuse [or jail, or torture, or disappear, or exterminate] the populace. Just as a presidency or monarchy is only as good as the president or monarch, any economic or political system is only as good as those allowed to remain in power are.

Socialism is not 'about equality', or at least, that's a vast oversimplification. Socialism is an economic/political system in which either the community or gov't owns the means of production and distribution of goods and, ultimately, there is no private property. Is that a better system than capitalism? Well, maybe [and I'm no fan of capitalism, though it's certainly an effective economic system for certain time periods]? But it's not inherently good, nor is it necessarily 'about equality' since if history is any guide you can be sure those in power will still find a way to be the 'haves'.

Grant the socialist government too much power, and it should be easy to see how a system in which the government owns everything can go sour real, real quick. And it's a quick shift from 'community owned' to 'government owned'.

More importantly, we need to question -how- a new economic/political system falls into place. For example, how does a society of capitalism shift to socialism? If individuals currently own everything... how exactly does the gov't take control? The short answer is: force. They take everything. Your family business that's five generations old? It's now the government's. Or, how are political dissidents handled? That often has little to do with the economic system in place, and everything to do with the will of those in power.

The old adages that 'power corrupts' and 'money is the root of all evil' are both a bit oversimplified as well, but in general, should be remembered in this case. All political systems and all economic systems can be corrupted. That certainly includes democracy and capitalism, or what most consider those to be nowadays anyway. Socialism certainly has it's good points, but don't make the mistake of oversimplifying and think it's all roses and 'equality'. It's not that simple.
 

ViolentP

Member
True, but considering the kind of "historical accuracy" people ask for in video games, you probably would never know that.

I also edited my post not to assume the poster's race. Even men who are racial minorities can be weirdly sexist.

I can respect if someone is trying to "retell" a story with some level of accuracy to the historical content. I also believe that they should be held accountable for what they ultimately release. So if they choose to omit female soldiers from the single-player campaign, I get it so long as they don't add say, vampires.

Multiplayer tells no tale so restriction should be off the table for all but the most offensive of content.
 

Joeku

Member
I'm strongly pro-inclusion, but strongly against cleansing the Nazi image.

My suggestion: all players, from their perspective, play for the Allies. Think America's Army; the enemy always plays the Axis. Players can now customize their avatars and represent a spectrum of humanity without burying the racially coded violence and slaughter perpetrated by the Nazis.

Racial and gender diversity fit great into an escapist WW II shooter. Just not on the Axis side.

Not gonna work for esports. None of this was a consideration the last time Call of Duty was in WW2.
 

Nepenthe

Member
Yeah I totally get that. However nowadays it just feels forced to have a woman/woman lead in almost every game or movie.

Because that's what's happening. Almost every game or movie being made now has a female lead.

Also, this is somehow more arbitrary than having men lead in almost every game or movie.

What's gonna be the next hollywood/marketing trend in 5 years?

Hopefully more inclusion. More interesting viewpoints. More new settings and stories to tell.

I'm a black woman. I'm kinda tired of seeing white men be the heroes in nearly everything.

I wouldn't be talking about this if my girlfriend wouldn't complain about it every time.

Wow, even a woman's at fault for your own decision to make posts complaining about inclusion.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I get it I guess. Call of Duty Multiplayer has always been a 'toybox' of sorts, with things like weapons appearing in places where they never saw action.

I also understand, and probably prefer, the Battlefield 1 approach of trying to maintain a context to the extent that it doesn't hinder gameplay. Trying as best as possible to achieve visual and audio authenticity.
Battlefield 1 doesn't do that. Soldiers don't look like they did during WW1 and the majority of weapons weren't used anywhere near as frequently.
 

Scoops

Banned
Swastikas needs to be kept in the campaign for historical accuracy. It literally isn't a World War 2 game without them, but I don't very much care if they're in the multiplayer or not.

As far as women NPC soldiers go...I don't mind women soldiers where women actually participated in WW2 but I'm not a fan of re-writing history just to be more inclusive. Like, I shouldn't be seeing women NPC's on Normandy because (to my knowledge) there were none there. Again, I couldn't care less if women are in the multiplayer or not and I don't really care what the player chooses as their own skin to play in the campaign as either.
 

tensuke

Member
Angry people keep asking about why they removed the nazi symbols for MP

People provide them with answers and reasons

Angry people still "muh history!"


You want fucking history accuracy go watch a documentary and go to the library, stop trying to get that shit through a video game played by 12 year olds yelling racial slurs through your TV.

The "answers and reasons" are still dumb. You're fighting nazis, nazis wore swastikas. Nobody's gonna see swastikas in the game and suddenly become emboldened to become more racist or hateful because of those symbols. Everybody knows what the swastika looks like, that nazis wore them, that they were all over nazi germany. It's not some catalyst that Sledgehammer is protecting us from. The advertising/e-sports/german law angle I *get*, but they should be options that are either permanently enabled (for germany) or togglable (for esports/ads). There's no reason to take them out altogether in MP.

It's not like people are clamoring for 100% historical accuracy from call of duty (except the people that seem to have a problem with black/female nazis in MP which is...dumb. they're just avatars, who cares). But having nazis with NO swastikas? And NO swastikas on the tanks or the buildings or the flags? Just dumb.
 

Eylos

Banned
It's a form of censorship and revisionist history. If certain countries outright ban Nazi imagery, devs could easily replace or discard the Nazi insignia.

It's a grey area because as a developer, they want to attract a wide audience but it seems odd given the material they are working with.

I see it as a work of fiction but people interpret it many different ways. Take, for example, an 60s Trek episode that was skipped in parts of Europe because of fears Neo-Nazism.


bf639fb516a2e2191fa8074b1f710315.jpg


I understand the rationale. Isn't a big deal.
Nazi imagery IS a crime here If its not used in a historical Sense, in books, movies and historical games. But If the imagery is used in a way Like "nazis are awesome or cool" then its a crime, strangely enough the ideology is not a crime, you can be a nazi but you cant use the imagery.
 

SmokedMeat

Gamer™
All seriousness goes out the window when it comes to multiplayer. Run around like a bunch of headless chickens as whatever character you please, with whatever fancied up gun you want.
 

Nepenthe

Member
Nobody's gonna see swastikas in the game and suddenly become emboldened to become more racist or hateful because of those symbols

You literally think alt-right/Gamergate/otherwise racist shitheads would not use the opportunity to play as a Nazi in multiplayer as a springboard to shout racist things, and feel like they're partly condoned in this since the company allowed them to play as a Nazi in the first place?

Really?

Do you also think that many men don't single out those playing female avatars in games and environments that are typically male-dominated?
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I still think the people who want realism should be banned every time their character dies so that their digital character can spend 3 weeks in a military hospital before being sent back to the front. lol
 

kiguel182

Member
I'm strongly pro-inclusion, but strongly against cleansing the Nazi image.

My suggestion: all players, from their perspective, play for the Allies. Think America's Army; the enemy always plays the Axis. Players can now customize their avatars and represent a spectrum of humanity without burying the racially coded violence and slaughter perpetrated by the Nazis.

Racial and gender diversity fit great into an escapist WW II shooter. Just not on the Axis side.

I think making you always play as allies would work yes but given the game probably offers heavy customization it would impact that part.
 

Alienous

Member
Battlefield 1 doesn't do that. Soldiers don't look like they did during WW1 and the majority of weapons weren't used anywhere near as frequently.

I'm sure it isn't 100% accurate, and I'm aware of the weapons thing (that comes under gameplay), but within my limited knowledge of WW1 there was very little that set my 'alarm bells' off in terms of incongruity. The tanks look and sound like I'd imagine, even if they are faster for the sake of gameplay. It has a good surface realism.
 
This sounds nuts to me. It's WWII. It's ok to have the the Nazi's on one side, and allied on the other. This is just over the top PC that I don't think anyone was looking for.
 

TheBowen

Sat alone in a boggy marsh
Swastikas thankfully are remaining in the campaign for immersion and historical sakes, and they are (as far as I'm aware ) only having woman in the campaign to the extent that they were historically there/accurate and it's cool to see a WW2 game focus on the lesser known conflicts and in a way the 'behind the scenes' aspects of WW2, such as the freedom fighthters and I believe engineers? And brits (and a child?) Which would give it a new experience as opposed to the other WW2 games (which usually have Russian/British campaigns to break the flow)

The multiplayer however is fine. Leave swastikas out and allow people to customise there character however they want. Nobody can say they were immersed within a cod multiplayer game (that's a bullshit claim) , if that were true then the ridiculous killstreaks and gun skins should be taken out of that was the issue. The immersion/engagement comes from the gameplay, not from the atmosphere and realism ffs.

Although I do agree it's strange to be able to play as black/white woman on the axis ( if true ) due to the obvious tension of the team they would technically be fighting for.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
The "answers and reasons" are still dumb. You're fighting nazis, nazis wore swastikas. Nobody's gonna see swastikas in the game and suddenly become emboldened to become more racist or hateful because of those symbols.
You say that as if GG, the alt right, 4chan, and /poI don't exist...hell they're the most pissed about the exclusion because they would LOVE to jump at the chance to role play as nazis.

Everybody knows what the swastika looks like, that nazis wore them, that they were all over nazi germany. It's not some catalyst that Sledgehammer is protecting us from. The advertising/e-sports/german law angle I *get*, but they should be options that are either permanently enabled (for germany) or togglable (for esports/ads). There's no reason to take them out altogether in MP.
You're right, everyone knows the context so really no reason to let idiots be be even more idiotic and alienate a large amount of people, (Germany), by including them.

It's not like people are clamoring for 100% historical accuracy from call of duty (except the people that seem to have a problem with black/female nazis in MP which is...dumb. they're just avatars, who cares). But having nazis with NO swastikas? And NO swastikas on the tanks or the buildings or the flags? Just dumb.
Where do you stand on soldiers in WW2 using UAVs?
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I'm sure it isn't 100% accurate, and I'm aware of the weapons thing (that comes under gameplay), but within my limited knowledge of WW1 there was very little that set my 'alarm bells' off in terms of incongruity. The tanks look and sound like I'd imagine, even if they are faster for the sake of gameplay. It has a good surface realism.
Did they ever add a true trench warfare map into the game? It's like the one "signature" of WW1 and all the maps feel like they could be from any modern conflict.
 

Clockwork

Member
I'm not sure what I would do if I was the developer, but I don't think they should sacrifice historical accuracy for the sake of diversity nor should the content be censored/sanitized.

I know they want to do it to widen the audience (and in turn make more sales/money) but it just rubs me the wrong way.

There are plenty of other games to play if certain gamers don't care for the subject matter or are upset they are not being catered to.
 

Nepenthe

Member
I still think the people who want realism should be banned every time their character dies so that their digital character can spend 3 weeks in a military hospital before being sent back to the front. lol

I would honestly love for some company under fire for not adhering to the "artistic vision" of the players and making their own thing actually make a ridiculously historically accurate game mode that does trolling shit like this.

- Highly limited stamina and sprint speed
- No health regen
- Debris now has collision and can cause damage/death
- Hospitalization
- Discharge/Permadeath

I'm not sure what I would do if I was the developer, but I don't think they should sacrifice historical accuracy for the sake of diversity nor should the content be censored/sanitized.

They're not censoring themselves. They're making the game they want to make and gave the reasons why. I thought gamers were all about letting the artist do what they want to do.

There are plenty of other games to play if certain gamers don't care for the subject matter or are upset they are not being catered to.

There are plenty of other games to play if certain gamers don't care for the comfort of their fellow players and value historical accuracy above a more welcoming multiplayer environment.
 
I'm not sure what I would do if I was the developer, but I don't think they should sacrifice historical accuracy for the sake of diversity nor should the content be censored/sanitized.

I know they want to do it to widen the audience (and in turn make more sales/money) but it just rubs me the wrong way.

There are plenty of other games to play if certain gamers don't care for the subject matter or are upset they are not being catered to.

The single player is literally what you're asking for.
 
Were the germans in CoD ever represented by the swastika in multiplayer? I might be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure it was always the iron cross.
 

Alienous

Member
Did they ever add a true trench warfare map into the game? It's like the one "signature" of WW1 and all the maps feel like they could be from any modern conflict.

Did you ever try the Operations gametype? That has quite a focus on having players navigate between trenches.

But again, it's a choice that makes sense from a gameplay perspective - similar to Call of Duty picking the most 'interesting' places where combat occurred.
 
I would honestly love for some company under fire for not adhering to the "artistic vision" of the players and making their own thing actually make a ridiculously historically accurate game mode that does trolling shit like this.

- Highly limited stamina and sprint speed
- No health regen
- Debris now has collision and can cause damage/death
- Hospitalization
- Discharge/Permadeath
This was called Operation Flashpoint, and it sucked ass
 

Stiler

Member
"on the Axis side even though the German forces were made up entirely of white men."


ojFH5I6.jpg


There were black soldiers that fought under Germany in WWII.

That picture is from the Freies Arabien Legion.

They weren't common no, but some did exist.
 

Kinyou

Member
You literally think alt-right/Gamergate/otherwise racist shitheads would not use the opportunity to play as a Nazi in multiplayer as a springboard to shout racist things, and feel like they're partly condoned in this since the company allowed them to play as a Nazi in the first place?
I imagine that's going to happen with or without swastikas. After all is everything else that relates to nazi imagery still there.

I suspect the push to remove it came more because of e-sport and youtube guidelines.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I'm sure it isn't 100% accurate, and I'm aware of the weapons thing (that comes under gameplay), but within my limited knowledge of WW1 there was very little that set my 'alarm bells' off in terms of incongruity. The tanks look and sound like I'd imagine, even if they are faster for the sake of gameplay. It has a good surface realism.
It's hollywood realism.
 
The "answers and reasons" are still dumb. You're fighting nazis, nazis wore swastikas. Nobody's gonna see swastikas in the game and suddenly become emboldened to become more racist or hateful because of those symbols. Everybody knows what the swastika looks like, that nazis wore them, that they were all over nazi germany. It's not some catalyst that Sledgehammer is protecting us from. The advertising/e-sports/german law angle I *get*, but they should be options that are either permanently enabled (for germany) or togglable (for esports/ads). There's no reason to take them out altogether in MP.

It's not like people are clamoring for 100% historical accuracy from call of duty (except the people that seem to have a problem with black/female nazis in MP which is...dumb. they're just avatars, who cares). But having nazis with NO swastikas? And NO swastikas on the tanks or the buildings or the flags? Just dumb.

Very well said.
 
I think they don't want to create a scenario that enables some people to deliberately associate themselves to swastikas and feel empowered to express their matching views and beliefs because of that.
That's understandable.
 

Nepenthe

Member
I imagine that's going to happen with or without swastikas. After all is everything else that relates to nazi imagery still there.

I suspect the push came more because of e-sport and youtube guidelines.

I don't doubt it's going to happen either. Shitheads are going to shithead. But at the same time, the company is not obligated to artistically condone that kind of behavior either. Sledgehammer has made it clear on where they stand in regards to potentially glorifying Nazi propoganda, and I hope they aren't hypocritically bullied into changing it.
 
I would take swastikas over Soviet markings, after all it wasn't the Germans who tried to take my country and ruin it like they did with the every other country that it borders (in European side). *

Germans helped us when nobody else wouldn't, can't see wrong with that. But I understand that our situation was rather unique.

And I prefer my games as authentic as possible, if it doesn't hinder gameplay. DICE does it right, but maybe Europeans can handle these things better than the US? I mean, it was this continent that was raped. Again. If CoD devs are EU base, I apologise.

Of course Sweden was neutral and exploited every side of the war, selling their wares throughout the war... Easier to them to be neutral against Nazis/Soviets etc...

There was also females fighting, rare sight tho but they were there. Of course that CoD style shrieking is borderline insulting towards the brave women that helped to keep Europe free from the two bullies.


Well, to be fair, Germans split the Europe with Soviets and was a part reason to USSR aggression towards my country, but anyway...
 
This is nonsense but this is also just a game so no big deal.

If Sledgehammer Games would simply add an option to the settings menu that allows the Nazi iconography to be toggled on or off, everything would be fine.

For E-sports - just toggle it "off" on all played/streamed games to preserve sentiment.

Simple.
 
It's probably because they know racist/fascists/bigots/assholes/the scum of the gaming world will probably be trying to ride that Nazi train in MP as hard as possible including lawding the iconography if it was present. I'm fine with it in a more historically accurate single player (which probably won't be that accurate knowing these games and their focus) and a more inclusive MP that doesn't have imagery that many would most likely abuse and use to their own fucked up ends.

I think it's more of how it will be perceived in the right-leaning media. Remember, to the right, the ideas of free speech and political incorrectness that they love so much do not apply to video games as they are new-fangled liberal technology. CoD is no stranger to criticism from these sources (No Russian) so this may be a way to try and appease all sides especially in such a high-profile release.
 

Kalentan

Member
If Sledgehammer Games would simply add an option to the settings menu that allows the Nazi iconography to be toggled on or off, everything would be fine.

For E-sports - just toggle it "off" on all played/streamed games to preserve sentiment.

Simple.

It's not that simple. It's never that simple.
 
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