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LordOfChaos · Mar 19, 2017

Rodin said:
The problem is that you'd still play this on it

It just wouldn't make financial sense to push the limits of that microconsole.

Of course, and unless they bundled a controller devs may not make full use of the scale it could be capable of...But I still think it would be an interesting microconsole. iirc the A10 only cost in the range of 20-30 dollars on the BoM, probably not too far from the A8 in it, so it's more of a "may as well, and see what comes of it"

If it stuck to iPhone chip updates it could become very powerful very fast.

Plus I just want to see what an A10 can do with no care for thermals or batteries, from a geek perspective.

PrinceKee · Mar 19, 2017

Is it possible for Nintendo to come out with an enhanced dock to improve graphical performance in the future? I know it would be the like N64 ram expansion pack, but I'd be open to buy it...

ultrazilla · Mar 19, 2017

PrinceKee said:
Is it possible for Nintendo to come out with an enhanced dock to improve graphical performance in the future? I know it would be the like N64 ram expansion pack, but I'd be open to buy it...

Theoretically yes. They have the patent for add on devices that improve performance("computational devices") once plugged into the system.

Here's an article on it: http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...uting_device_patent_is_cleared_for_completion

It would make the most sense for them to do this via docks that contain the additional hardware that would increase performance of the system. 4K? 60fps? I *do* expect them to use that patent and will even go as far as saying that they may even talk about it at E3(which would be a great way to entice even more developers).

LordOfChaos · Mar 19, 2017

PrinceKee said:
Is it possible for Nintendo to come out with an enhanced dock to improve graphical performance in the future? I know it would be the like N64 ram expansion pack, but I'd be open to buy it...

It only has gen 1 USB 3, so 5Gb/s. Thunderbolt 3 at 40Gb/s still limits a card like the 1060 to 80-90% of its performance, so I'm not sure what if anything we could possibly expect from a meager 5Gb/s. Unless the entire system, CPU, RAM, etc, was all dock-side, making the tablet do almost nothing...Which would be essentially a new console.

And a wireless SCD would be worse at a theoretical max around 1Gb/s.

ultrazilla said:
Theoretically yes. They have the patent for add on devices that improve performance("computational devices") once plugged into the system.

Here's an article on it: http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...uting_device_patent_is_cleared_for_completion

It would make
the most sense for them to do this via docks that contain the additional hardware that would increase performance of the system. 4K? 60fps? I *do* expect them to use that patent and will even go as far as saying that they may even talk about it at E3(which would be a great way to entice even more developers).

A patent just indicates they may use something in the next two decades...The Switch certainly does not seem to have the bandwidth for it.

Screamapillar · Mar 19, 2017

Let's not pretend that we didn't all pretty much already know this to be true. lol

Mutant · Mar 19, 2017

Is the hardware good enough for Nintendo to pursue temporal anti-aliasing or checkboard rendering solutions?

2+2=5 · Mar 19, 2017

ultrazilla said:
Theoretically yes. They have the patent for add on devices that improve performance("computational devices") once plugged into the system.

Here's an article on it: http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...uting_device_patent_is_cleared_for_completion

It would make the most sense for them to do this via docks that contain the additional hardware that would increase performance of the system. 4K? 60fps? I *do* expect them to use that patent and will even go as far as saying that they may even talk about it at E3(which would be a great way to entice even more developers).

The dock already fits the patent imo.

Plinko · Mar 19, 2017

LordOfChaos said:
It only has gen 1 USB 3, so 5Gb/s. Thunderbolt 3 at 40Gb/s still limits a card like the 1060 to 80-90% of its performance, so I'm not sure what if anything we could possibly expect from a meager 5Gb/s. Unless the entire system, CPU, RAM, etc, was all dock-side, making the tablet do almost nothing...Which would be essentially a new console.

And a wireless SCD would be worse at a theoretical max around 1Gb/s.

A patent just indicates they may use something in the next two decades...The Switch certainly does not seem to have the bandwidth for it.

1. I believe Nintendo execs are on record speaking about moving toward an Apple-like iterative console release schedule of some nature. At the very least, they've hinted at it.

2. Most likely, an SCD would take the form of an entirely new dock.

NolbertoS · Mar 19, 2017

Tron#1 said:
wait you guys have gone back to a SNES vs Genesis debate... wow!

Yeah this was supposed to be about the Tegra X1, but now its back to the SNES vs Genesis days

. Soon it'll be a PS1 vs N64 vs Saturn

Hermii · Mar 19, 2017

Nintendo should have chose a soc thats both super and has blast processing. Best of both worlds.

Jaagen · Mar 19, 2017

Hermii said:
Nintendo should have chose a soc thats both super and has blast processing. Best of both worlds.

Blast processing AND Mode 7. The competition doesn't stand a chance.

calc84maniac · Mar 19, 2017

2+2=5 said:
The dock already fits the patent imo.

Not really. The computing is all still done inside the Switch itself.

geordiemp · Mar 19, 2017

Rodin said:
Do you want me to post again gameplay videos of mobile racing games to see how they look compared to Fast?

No but you could post wipeout from 2008, 10 years ago, was 1080p60...as I dont understand the points being made ?

Its clear some engines can do allot more with a racing genre and its been that way for quite some years from early ridge racer onwards.,

Racing games are not a barometer of gaming power IMO, it is kinda expected to be better but that does not diminish the genre or some fine performance in that space.

GaimeGuy · Mar 19, 2017

Narroo said:
Similar to the Wii?

I never said it wasn't important. Rather, it's shouldn't be the number 1 priority when making a console, as that particular story was implying.

Exactly; making an overly efficient console can be a detriment, because at some point it can kind of defeat the purpose of having a console in the first place. But for a portable system, efficiency actually is the most important aspect.

Consoles didn't exist to be not portable so they could be powerful. They were designed around the entertainment center of mid 20th-early 21st century, the Television in the living room.

AmyS · Mar 19, 2017

ultrazilla said:
Theoretically yes. They have the patent for add on devices that improve performance("computational devices") once plugged into the system.

Here's an article on it: http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...uting_device_patent_is_cleared_for_completion

It would make the most sense for them to do this via docks that contain the additional hardware that would increase performance of the system. 4K? 60fps? I *do* expect them to use that patent and will even go as far as saying that they may even talk about it at E3(which would be a great way to entice even more developers).

TyMiles2012 · Mar 19, 2017

ultrazilla said:
Theoretically yes. They have the patent for add on devices that improve performance("computational devices") once plugged into the system.

Here's an article on it: http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...uting_device_patent_is_cleared_for_completion

It would make the most sense for them to do this via docks that contain the additional hardware that would increase performance of the system. 4K? 60fps? I *do* expect them to use that patent and will even go as far as saying that they may even talk about it at E3(which would be a great way to entice even more developers).

I'm really curious about this. I'm not going to deny that as a possibility though despite USB-C's bandwidth as Thunderbolt is out of the question. Simply because Crackdown 3 supposedly does that on internet bandwidth. Titanfall does the same for AI I heard.

At the same time, I think it would ruin the aspect of the Switch. Unless Nintendo really buckles down and says that you can't make a game that requires it. You wouldn't be able to play those games in portable mode.

PdotMichael · Mar 19, 2017

There is nothing to connect such a box to anything on the Switch. X1 also doesn't support anything in that direction.

Also I guess the focus on cloud computing is the only reason it got accepted, because the idea is neither new nor unique.

TyMiles2012 · Mar 19, 2017

PdotMichael said:
There is nothing to connect such a box to anything on the Switch. X1 also doesn't support anything in that direction.

It could. The AC port isn't power only since the dock is also a USB hub. The supplemental box would plug into that, and the box would be plugged into the wall. It's just that the box will have to have a power supply built in. For computation, it would have to be a crazy form of Optimus where the box will do some rendering, then the Switch's own Tegra would push that frame buffer. Kinda like how the laptop GPU's will do the hard work, and the Intel iGPU will push the frame buffer. Newer laptops will even work with borderless fullscreen games, though the diagonal tearing happens, which Nvidia will never get around to fixing unless they do it for the Switch. The problem at that point would be bandwidth. I've used Bumblebee on Linux and all Optimus GPU's do is renders the image, and pushes a compressed screenshot of each frame to the Intel GPU. Near lossless JPG is the default. I don't think the bandwidth would be sufficient on USB C to do that without compression artifacts.

Taggen86 · Mar 19, 2017

I do not understand why they did not wait for the tegra x2. That could have put the console just below xbox one (or at least closer to it) in terms of power which would imply more 3rd party support and probably a more succesful console in the long run. Why use 2 year old technology and a create a console on par with ps3/xbox 360 when you can create a current gen console for the same price? Consoles should always aim for the latest transistor technology

TyMiles2012 · Mar 19, 2017

Taggen86 said:
I do not understand why they did not wait for the tegra x2. That could have put the console just below xbox one in terms of power which would imply more 3rd party support and probably a more succesful console in the long run. Why use 2 year old technology and a create a console on par with ps3/xbox 360 when you can create a current gen console for the same price? Consoles should always aim for the latest transistor technology

Nintendo wanted to keep it at the $300 mark. Wouldn't have been possible with the X2. Plus, this is the first X1 device in a dedicated console. Despite the downclocks, we don't have the massive Android overhead. I'm not assuming it's as powerful, and I'm keeping my expectations in check, but it's still too early to see what this thing's capable of. We can assume the UE4 demo ran on Android as well, but it still looks damn good. I heard that UE4 Elemental demo was also using the mobile version of UE4 but I haven't found any proof of that.

Hermii · Mar 19, 2017

Taggen86 said:
I do not understand why they did not wait for the tegra x2. That could have put the console just below xbox one in terms of power which would imply more 3rd party support and probably a more succesful console in the long run. Why use 2 year old technology and a create a console on par with ps3/xbox 360 when you can create a current gen console for the same price? Consoles should always aim for the latest transistor technology

It would still be quite a lot below Xbox. If we assume they would aim for the same battery life, the advantages would be double bandwidth and higher clokspeeds, which would be awesome and all but no portable xbox one.

Btw does anyone know how the X2 cpu is configured? Can the denver cores and the A57s run at the same time, and how would denver cores work for gaming?

LordOfChaos · Mar 19, 2017

Plinko said:
1. I believe Nintendo execs are on record speaking about moving toward an Apple-like iterative console release schedule of some nature. At the very least, they've hinted at it.

2. Most likely, an SCD would take the form of an entirely new dock.

2) The dock could be whatever it wants, the Switch tablet itself only has the bus for USB 3 gen 1, aka 5Gb/s (625MBs/). Not much to work with in a graphics context. Unless, as I said, nearly everything was in a new dock, but that would make the tablet part unnecessary.

If they just release an updated tablet, sure, yeah, that's a different case.

PdotMichael · Mar 19, 2017

TyMiles2012 said:
It could. The AC port isn't power only since the dock is also a USB hub. The supplemental box would plug into that, and the box would be plugged into the wall. It's just that the box will have to have a power supply built in. For computation, it would have to be a crazy form of Optimus where the box will do some rendering, then the Switch's own Tegra would push that frame buffer. Kinda like how the laptop GPU's will do the hard work, and the Intel iGPU will push the frame buffer. Newer laptops will even work with borderless fullscreen games, though the diagonal tearing happens, which Nvidia will never get around to fixing unless they do it for the Switch. The problem at that point would be bandwidth. I've used Bumblebee on Linux and all Optimus GPU's do is renders the image, and pushes a compressed screenshot of each frame to the Intel GPU. Near lossless JPG is the default. I don't think the bandwidth would be sufficient on USB C to do that without compression artifacts.

The dock would be its own console. Rather pointless trying to go through the Switch.

QuantumZebra · Mar 19, 2017

Tron#1 said:
wait you guys have gone back to a SNES vs Genesis debate... wow!

There should be some sort of internet law describing the phenomena where all console debates must eventually devolve into Genesis vs. SNES arguments

AmyS · Mar 20, 2017

PdotMichael said:
There is nothing to connect such a box to anything on the Switch. X1 also doesn't support anything in that direction.

Also I guess the focus on cloud computing is the only reason it got accepted, because the idea is neither new nor unique.

There's nothing preventing Switch from taking advantage of Nvidia GRID / GeForce Now, correct?

Instro · Mar 20, 2017

The main issue I see with this is the memory bandwidth. That's going to be a bottleneck that they probably could have done something about. They could have also shrunk the TX1 to 16nm to get some performance improvement. I think both of those would have been very worthwhile customizations, particularly the former.

guybrushfreeman · Mar 20, 2017

Is this a hardware fanfiction thread again now?

Night Angel · Mar 20, 2017

guybrushfreeman said:
Is this a hardware fanfiction thread again now?

Looks like it.

ArtHands · Mar 20, 2017

Taggen86 said:
I do not understand why they did not wait for the tegra x2. That could have put the console just below xbox one in terms of power which would imply more 3rd party support and probably a more succesful console in the long run. Why use 2 year old technology and a create a console on par with ps3/xbox 360 when you can create a current gen console for the same price? Consoles should always aim for the latest transistor technology

That will increase the price tag of Switch.

gregor7777 · Mar 20, 2017

QuantumZebra said:
There should be some sort of internet law describing the phenomena where all console debates must eventually devolve into Genesis vs. SNES arguments

SNES VS Genisis wars were serious stuff.

SNES obviously

TwilightPrincess · Mar 20, 2017

Taggen86 said:
I do not understand why they did not wait for the tegra x2. That could have put the console just below xbox one in terms of power which would imply more 3rd party support and probably a more succesful console in the long run. Why use 2 year old technology and a create a console on par with ps3/xbox 360 when you can create a current gen console for the same price? Consoles should always aim for the latest transistor technology

It's not only on par with PS360.... and the difference between Maxwell and Pascal isn't that big. We wouldn't have gotten a portable Xbox One anyway.

Also there is no X2, Nintendo would have had to build it with Nvidia. Parker isn't designed for tablets, even Nvidia uses the 2nd iteration of X1 in the 2017 version of Shield Android TV.

The Last One · Mar 20, 2017

Since this is a thread about the Switch hardware I gotta ask. When the Switch is docked it runs at higher clockspeeds? I ask this because the only differente in Zelda is the resolution when playing in both modes.

Ricerocket · Mar 20, 2017

The Last One said:
Since this is a thread about the Switch hardware I gotta ask. When the Switch is docked it runs at higher clockspeeds? I ask this because the only differente in Zelda is the resolution when playing in both modes.

Yes. GPU is running at twice the speed docked compared to portable mode basically. CPU stays the same.

guek · Mar 20, 2017

Taggen86 said:
I do not understand why they did not wait for the tegra x2. That could have put the console just below xbox one in terms of power which would imply more 3rd party support and probably a more succesful console in the long run.

No it couldn't have, why do people keep saying this

xochipiltontli · Mar 20, 2017

Even if the X2 didn't bring the system to the Xbox One's level, the Switch would have benefitted from Pascal in various ways. The system could have either had a better battery life and no need for active cooling, or it could have actually reached the TX1's peak clock speeds assuming they stuck with the fan and shitty battery life. Meaning we could've either gotten 5 hours of Breath of the Wild on the go or we could've gotten the game at 1080p or at least at 900p with no drops and better texture filtering or something.

I've really been enjoying my Switch as is, but I do feel like waiting until the holidays for an X2 would have been better for the future of the platform.

guek · Mar 20, 2017

xochipiltontli said:
Even if the X2 didn't bring the system to the Xbox One's level, the Switch would have benefitted from Pascal in various ways. The system could have either had a better battery life and no need for active cooling, or it could have actually reached the TX1's peak clock speeds assuming they stuck with the fan and shitty battery life. Meaning we could've either gotten 5 hours of Breath of the Wild on the go or we could've gotten the game at 1080p or at least at 900p with no drops and better texture filtering or something.

Look, if you're gonna get upset that Nintendo didn't put in something better than the X1, pining for a chip that has never been applied to mobile or gaming tech is not the way to go about it. Nintendo could have die shrunk the X1 or increased the bandwidth or gotten rid of the A53s and done something with the space or SOMETHING to make it custom and more efficient. Pining for the X2 though doesn't make any amount of sense when that chip is only currently found in cars.

xochipiltontli · Mar 20, 2017

guek said:
Look, if you're gonna get upset that Nintendo didn't put in something better than the X1, pining for a chip that has never been applied to mobile or gaming tech is not the way to go about it. Nintendo could have die shrunk the X1 or increased the bandwidth or gotten rid of the A53s and done something with the space or SOMETHING to make it custom and more efficient. Pining for the X2 though doesn't make any amount of sense when that chip is only currently found in cars.

Oh I forgot that the X2/Parker was actually only for use in cars. In that case I'd rephrase my statement to just refer to what you said, an actual 16nm custom chip with increased bandwidth. I still think that using a stock X1 wasn't that great of a decision.

Polygonal_Sprite · Mar 20, 2017

ultrazilla said:
Theoretically yes. They have the patent for add on devices that improve performance("computational devices") once plugged into the system.

Here's an article on it: http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...uting_device_patent_is_cleared_for_completion

It would make the most sense for them to do this via docks that contain the additional hardware that would increase performance of the system. 4K? 60fps? I *do* expect them to use that patent and will even go as far as saying that they may even talk about it at E3(which would be a great way to entice even more developers).

I expect Nintendo to talk about an SCD or a standalone dedicated console at E3 (using fully clocked Tegra chips). Switch is simply the first in a family of NX systems which will all play the same games using the same architecture, accounts and OS.

Astral Dog · Mar 20, 2017

Polygonal_Sprite said:
I expect Nintendo to talk about an SCD or a standalone dedicated console at E3 (using fully clocked Tegra chips). Switch is simply the first in a family of NX systems which will all play the same games using the same architecture, accounts and OS.

Yeah...no.
It won't be a different system from Switch that is console only with more third party than what they are currently offering for $300.

This thread has gone full fan fic just now

Saint Gregory · Mar 20, 2017

ultrazilla said:
Theoretically yes. They have the patent for add on devices that improve performance("computational devices") once plugged into the system.

Here's an article on it: http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...uting_device_patent_is_cleared_for_completion

It would make the most sense for them to do this via docks that contain the additional hardware that would increase performance of the system. 4K? 60fps? I *do* expect them to use that patent and will even go as far as saying that they may even talk about it at E3(which would be a great way to entice even more developers).

Having that tech in their back pocket may have just been to hedge bets if Switch failed to take off or to introduce a mid-gen upgrade to the devices later. Since the Switch actually seems to be doing OK out of the gate I seriously doubt that they want to muddy the waters so early and confuse their base with a power add-on in the first year.

Vash63 · Mar 20, 2017

Polygonal_Sprite said:
I expect Nintendo to talk about an SCD or a standalone dedicated console at E3 (using fully clocked Tegra chips). Switch is simply the first in a family of NX systems which will all play the same games using the same architecture, accounts and OS.

Prepare to be disappointed at E3 then. I could see a full on Switch revamp like the New 3DS or DSi in a few years but a separate, non-portable SKU (dock or otherwise) would ruin their vision for what the Switch is.

The Last One · Mar 20, 2017

Ricerocket said:
Yes. GPU is running at twice the speed docked compared to portable mode basically. CPU stays the same.

Thanks, I guess the biggest difference between docked and undockes will always be the resolution then.

KingSnake · Mar 20, 2017

With just the USB port that Switch tablet has now the possibility of an SCD that helps in any significant way is very slim. There's just not enough bandwidth to support that. Not to mention that it would still face the bottlenecks in the RAM bandwidth and CPU processing power. A SCD for the current Switch sounds like an awful idea.

calc84maniac · Mar 20, 2017

KingSnake said:
With just the USB port that Switch tablet has now the possibility of an SCD that helps in any significant way is very slim. There's just not enough bandwidth to support that. Not to mention that it would still face the bottlenecks in the RAM bandwidth and CPU processing power. A SCD for the current Switch sounds like an awful idea.

Would it free up enough bandwidth if the Switch doesn't output a DisplayPort signal over the USB? If the dock has its own GPU, theoretically the dock could output the HDMI from that instead of using USB bandwidth for the video signal.

guybrushfreeman · Mar 20, 2017

calc84maniac said:
Would it free up enough bandwidth if the Switch doesn't output a DisplayPort signal over the USB? If the dock has its own GPU, theoretically the dock could output the HDMI from that instead of using USB bandwidth for the video signal.

There's not enough bandwidth for anything. As people already pointed out the only way it works is if the dock does everything, at which point it's just a seperate device and doesn't need the tablet in the first place

AzaK · Mar 20, 2017

guek said:
Look, if you're gonna get upset that Nintendo didn't put in something better than the X1, pining for a chip that has never been applied to mobile or gaming tech is not the way to go about it. Nintendo could have die shrunk the X1 or increased the bandwidth or gotten rid of the A53s and done something with the space or SOMETHING to make it custom and more efficient. Pining for the X2 though doesn't make any amount of sense when that chip is only currently found in cars.

If anything, more bandwidth would have been nice so it could hit 1080, smooth in something like Zelda.

Pasedo · Mar 20, 2017

Would people be happy if all games on Switch hit 900p but with locked 30fps? And if so is it possible to get say Battlefield 1 to run at this on Switch?

Mokujin · Mar 20, 2017

AzaK said:
If anything, more bandwidth would have been nice so it could hit 1080, smooth in something like Zelda.

This kind of statements are misleading, that a fast port of a game designed for another completely different architecture on a day one release on a new platform is not running at 1080 and has some frame drops here and there does not imply in any shape or form that it can't be done.

Or maybe is that Nintendo has a technical prowess so, so good that they are capable of reaching the maximum limits of their new hardware day one?

Hermii · Mar 20, 2017

Pasedo said:
Would people be happy if all games on Switch hit 900p but with locked 30fps? And if so is it possible to get say Battlefield 1 to run at this on Switch?

I think it would require severe downgrades in addition to halving the framerate. Also I doubt it would be a cheap investment from EA, which means its not happening.

Taggen86 · Mar 20, 2017

TwilightPrincess said:
It's not only on par with PS360....

Well it is very close in terms of gflops. the switch is weaker than both the ps3 and the xbox 360 in portable mode if we believe the specs in the DF article ((256 * 2) * .3072 = 157.2864 gflops) compared to 192 gflops (ps3) and 240 gflops (xbox 360). The console is around twice as powerful as those consoles in dock mode (switch dock=393 gflops).so games in portable mode should be on par with PS360 while games in dock mode will basically be upressed PS360 games (900-1080p) since most games must work in portable mode aswell

Sources: last gen specs: https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/g...ent-gen.55710/
switch specs: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...-spec-analysis

TwilightPrincess said:
Also there is no X2, Nintendo would have had to build it with Nvidia. Parker isn't designed for tablets, even Nvidia uses the 2nd iteration of X1 in the 2017 version of Shield Android TV.

That is why I wrote that they should have waited

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