I'm not deflecting anything. You want your pound of flesh, regardless of whether or not it's the appropriate reaction to the situation. If a player starts behaving in a way that makes others uncomfortable, male or female, sexual or non, action should be taken. If they have a history of repeatedly making the environment suck for everyone else? Sure, can em. But you have to give them the rope to hang themselves. Aris has had his dumb, stupid, insensitive, ignorant comments and behavior called out now by thousands of people who don't even know him. He screwed up bad. But it's not the type of screw up you need to ban him for. He's on notice.
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Cross The Line - Sexual Assault... ok, maybe just Sexual Harassment!
- Thread starter The Faceless Master
- Start date
Dang, while I was busy with other things and everyone was dealing with the extremists that make even my agressive stance on the FGC look cuddly. Shame.
It's a great read.
National pride for expressions of rationality.
PsychoSoldier
Banned
I just think the potential to make everyone look bad becomes huge if you put a guy who so publicly gave the community a black eye right back into the spotlight.
And if we're going to make the argument that Aris is a fringe case and should be seen as such, putting him forward as someone we're willing to give a platform after all this happened hurts the argument a bit.
RedAssedApe
Banned
Spot on. Although some people might take the "victim blaming" the wrong way.
Ogrekiller
Member
notworksafe
Member
I see the point, but in the end I don't really care. The only people who will care are those who never cared about the FGC before and won't after this. I'd rather be entertained than placate people who don't care about the scene and probably won't be watching anyway.
Aris apologized and that's enough for me.
Neato_Jinkins
Banned
and that's why the scene you pretend to care about will always be a shitty, insular backwater. good work.
FindMyFarms
Member
The main line Aris crossed was not realizing that he was in a public setting. We say stupid racist/sexist shit all the time in our inner circle of friends, but it's a different story when people that aren't in on the same humor, or are in the same comfort zone/group of friends as you, are the recipients of the remarks.
I'd have absolutely no problem calling a female friend of mine a dirty whore in a joking manner, but no way I'd ever say that to some chic I've known for at the most a couple of days, none the less while on a stream.
edit - to add on to that, for most people, the FGC IS that inner circle of friends, which is why the language is so loose. Unfortunately, some people just don't know better, and the fact that our community is growing to be more than just our inner circle is daunting to a lot. More than anything, Aris isn't fighting for what he believes the FGC is, but the fact that he can treat the FGC as his inner circle. Unfortunately, with any growing hobby, you can't treat it like that at large. His actions aren't right, but at this point and time, he's not just defending his actions, but rather what he feels they represent. While I think he's wrong, I can still empathize with him on some level.
I'd have absolutely no problem calling a female friend of mine a dirty whore in a joking manner, but no way I'd ever say that to some chic I've known for at the most a couple of days, none the less while on a stream.
edit - to add on to that, for most people, the FGC IS that inner circle of friends, which is why the language is so loose. Unfortunately, some people just don't know better, and the fact that our community is growing to be more than just our inner circle is daunting to a lot. More than anything, Aris isn't fighting for what he believes the FGC is, but the fact that he can treat the FGC as his inner circle. Unfortunately, with any growing hobby, you can't treat it like that at large. His actions aren't right, but at this point and time, he's not just defending his actions, but rather what he feels they represent. While I think he's wrong, I can still empathize with him on some level.
Martiallawe
Neo Member
When there is such a diverse group of people as the FGC, there is bound to be a wide array of different and often contrasting opinions; hell, it's the same way for pretty much any group of people who gather around one specific hobby or activity. That, sorry to say, is the way things are; take pretty much any group other than the FGC and it can be divided into numerous subgroups that are in stark opposition to one another on various subjects. For example, within the Starcraft II community (and I am only using it as an example because it seems to be brought up more than any other, but it is doubtless that one could easily find examples in baseball, football, etc.) I have no doubts that various members disagree on issues that they take very seriously; one might (and probably will) find groups who are pro-X and groups who are anti-X as well as people who are Y-ist and people who loathe Y-ism, but the larger group should not be the podium from which one voices these opinions.
The problem with this whole Aris case is that he did just that--he voiced a very controversial point of view in a place where it shouldn't be voiced and acted in a way that he shouldn't have. If he wants to act in such a manner around a slightly more homogeneous group who wouldn't take deep offense to it, it wouldn't be an issue. It's really difficult to change the way in which a person thinks, and I don't think the FGC is the right venue to attempt to do so from anyways, but the way in which one acts is far more controllable. Aris, however, brought his views into the public spectrum and made it an issue. Keep non-FG related affairs (religion, politics, ideologies) out of the spotlight and there won't be a problem. If someone can't do that and is a source of animosity and internal strife because of it, they should be reprimanded and/or penalized as is fair (what this might consist of, however, I'm not sure about). If the FGC is unable to do this, I seriously doubt that it will be able to grow as much as it could and it might lose some of the diversity that it prides itself upon because it will become less about playing and the community as a whole and more about politics and cliques.
Maybe trying to keep Aris off of the stage & commentary for a little while until he proves that he can act with a bit more tact would be best; I don't know.
The problem with this whole Aris case is that he did just that--he voiced a very controversial point of view in a place where it shouldn't be voiced and acted in a way that he shouldn't have. If he wants to act in such a manner around a slightly more homogeneous group who wouldn't take deep offense to it, it wouldn't be an issue. It's really difficult to change the way in which a person thinks, and I don't think the FGC is the right venue to attempt to do so from anyways, but the way in which one acts is far more controllable. Aris, however, brought his views into the public spectrum and made it an issue. Keep non-FG related affairs (religion, politics, ideologies) out of the spotlight and there won't be a problem. If someone can't do that and is a source of animosity and internal strife because of it, they should be reprimanded and/or penalized as is fair (what this might consist of, however, I'm not sure about). If the FGC is unable to do this, I seriously doubt that it will be able to grow as much as it could and it might lose some of the diversity that it prides itself upon because it will become less about playing and the community as a whole and more about politics and cliques.
Maybe trying to keep Aris off of the stage & commentary for a little while until he proves that he can act with a bit more tact would be best; I don't know.
notworksafe
Member
CountAntonius
Member
Someone here is bound to give you shit for this but I agree and it happens in many circles. childish , immature and crude but when you know certain people long enough pretty much anything goes.
Neato_Jinkins
Banned
So people like you won't like or care about the FGC?
i, too, want my favorite activity to be a sausage fest of perpetual self-congratulation, black t-shirts, and as little introspection as is humanly possible.
oh, how i long for the life of a subterranean moleman.
Knux-Future
Banned
You know your points would be easier to read or agree with if you'd stop coming off like a giant prick.
Geez. You can post with insulting people dude. When all you do is insult people tend to not care what you have to say and before you say I don't care if they care...stop it. You wouldn't be posting if that was the case.
chill out on the insults and abrasive stuff or... you know what keep at it...you aren't long for this board anyway.
Neato_Jinkins
Banned
should i have given him a longwinded rundown on exactly why it's a bad idea to insulate a given community to the extent that it withers and dies for lack of new membership? what's the point? he made it abundantly clear that my opinion (and indeed the opinions of anyone outside of his beloved community) are essentially moot. so why dance around the subject?
he wants to be a moleman.
I really hope FGC doesn't stoop to banning Aris.
Dude made a major fuck up and needs to deal with it, however with as big and diverse the FGC is I much rather it take the believe people aren't as bad as their lowest point.
Aris is a man who has put in a lot of time and effort into the FGC and we all, especially the Tekken scene has benefitted greatly from all the work he has out into it.
Aris should pay his due, but let's not ruin what has proven to be a good thing and for the scene when all is said and done.
Dude made a major fuck up and needs to deal with it, however with as big and diverse the FGC is I much rather it take the believe people aren't as bad as their lowest point.
Aris is a man who has put in a lot of time and effort into the FGC and we all, especially the Tekken scene has benefitted greatly from all the work he has out into it.
Aris should pay his due, but let's not ruin what has proven to be a good thing and for the scene when all is said and done.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
Who's he insulting? He called one person here a cretin, and called Aris a dwarf. Are you upset he called Aris a dwarf? Even after all of his sexist and misogynist, asshole remarks?
Also, it's pretty hard not to come across slightly abrasive when this topic has people in here saying that what Aris did was wrong, but a quick half-assed apology that doesn't even address the issue makes everything okay. Or that they don't care about the opinions of people who aren't integrated into the "FGC" 'scene' already.
So, for the tenth time in this thread, what the fuck?
CountAntonius
Member
Where has this been said cause people keep saying this?
notworksafe
Member
I haven't been seeing the FGC dying out at all because of an incident like this. The "leaders" and "faces" of the community have made their opinions on the matter known and will most likely continue to do so over the next few days/weeks.
I'm mainly speaking about the people who make it known that they know nothing about the FGC and don't want to know much. They demand that actions be taken against people they don't know and insist their opinion is important relative to their outrage.
Because I am not as outwardly offended it is assumed that I condone and approve of this behavior. Because of this response, the person who doesn't care about the FGC and never will is making sure to tell me they have no respect for my scene that they never cared about in the first place.
What would be a better response for me to have?
Neato_Jinkins
Banned
point of order: i wasn't the one to call aris a dwarf.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
The last 5 pages have quite few comments saying that Aris seems like a "very nice guy", and that his apology is enough for them. That's the tangent the topic is on now. People jumping to "what do you want, him to be put in jail?!" from others simply suggesting a suspension and/or other form of sincere apology.
Ogrekiller
Member
Really?
The problem here is using the term dwarf as a prerogative, not the person it was applied to.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
And yet that doesn't negate the entire other points he, or others, were making, regardless of how much some of you wish it did.
Personally, I'd be calling this Aris fellow a lot more than dwarf if I had any kind of relationship with a female he harassed excessively.
He apologized many times according to Spooky, he also did it live and in the presence of 3000 people on A stream and didn't have any excuse, just said it was on him and it was his fuck up.
The twitter apology might not be worded how you would like, an and apology might not be enough, that doesn't change the fact he has done it in about every way he can.
BronsonLee
Member
The FGC will be fine either way. That being said, they have never accepted change well or corporate ANYTHING. This will probably not help matters. Status quo for something or someone to fuck up a corporate sponsorship or some such.
I couldn't tl;dr any harder than this; Aris can apologize all he wants; it's not enough. This is repeated behavior. If he's anywhere near a mic on any stream, that instantly means I'm not watching it.
And yes, I watch plenty of FGC streams, so it's not like an outsider coming in.
I couldn't tl;dr any harder than this; Aris can apologize all he wants; it's not enough. This is repeated behavior. If he's anywhere near a mic on any stream, that instantly means I'm not watching it.
And yes, I watch plenty of FGC streams, so it's not like an outsider coming in.
CountAntonius
Member
Nobody said a suspension would be a bad thing and nobody has said that his comments weren't absolutely stupid and offensive. We are saying casting him out of the community forever and continuously bashing him over and over again is not the way to go about it.
Neato_Jinkins
Banned
nobody thinks the FGC is going to die out because of this, but if they collectively refuse to become a more inclusive group, sure, it'll be detrimental over time.
and while i admit that i'm not as much of a scene junkie as the other people in this thread, i have been paying attention for about two years now. i actually prefered aris' commentary at evo2011 to just about everybody else's because he seemed to be the least uptight person there (unlike the insufferable bald guy who insisted on taking twitter questions for several hours). i don't have a personal grudge against the guy, and i don't dislike him.
i do dislike what he said, and i do know for a fact that the only way bigots learn is through public shame and consequences. that's why i think he needs to be pulled out from under the spotlight for a while.
Next time I'm at the bar and the waitress messes up my order, I'll be sure to call her a "fucking cretin". I'm sure that will go over swimmingly.
Kifftopher
Neo Member
As lots of reasonable people have pointed out, this isn't an isolated incident that he's being overly punished for, this is a straw that broke the camel's back. He's an ass.
notworksafe
Member
Being an ass with your words is not worthy of a ban from fighting game tournaments.
Being an asshole isn't wrong and many in the community have expressed similar view and crass jokes along side him.
Sexual harassment not included of course.
BronsonLee
Member
Sexually harassing people on multiple occasions at different times does, in fact, justify me not wanting you in the same general space as me.
But maybe not for others.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
So we're here again, where people sum up the entirety of his actions as "being an ass with words". This is why people are responding to some here in disbelief.
It's not sexual harassment! Just being an ass with words, man. In fact, non-physical sexual harassment doesn't exist. As long as it's something with words, it's just being an ass.
CountAntonius
Member
Sure and he is definitely paying for it but I for one am done pointing that out and rather move forward to the larger problem in this community that sexism is rather than lynch a single guy. At this point saying the obvious over and over again is not really adding to the discussion in this thread nor is it a positive to come in here with sarcastic remarks and insulting people they think are defending him(which they are not). That's just my opinion though and I should have just shut up and left the thread a few pages ago when it started getting ugly.
Has he said he was sorry because he was wrong and that was inexcusable, or just sorry he offended people? Big difference.
FindMyFarms
Member
I think most people can relate to saying things deemed "inappropriate" in our inner circle of friends, the problem is when it goes outside that circle of friends. For Aris, he still feels that the FGC IS "inner circle" when in reality, it's anything BUT that anymore. Miranda is not a close friend of his, he cannot talk to her in a manner as if they've known each other forever and anything will fly, he HAS to treat her in a professional manner, something that I KNOW he is not used to.
edit - also, at the end of the day, if someone isn't comfortable with what you're saying, regardless of how well you know them you just don't push it. I can call said female friend a filthy whore, and she can call me a walking pair of balls, but if at any point neither of us were cool we wouldn't push it.
That isn't what is happening. If it was people wouldn't agree that he should be held accountable.
Calling for a punishment to fit the crime, and not agree about the severity of the punishment is much different then saying we condone what happened.
Kifftopher
Neo Member
A lot of people seem to sincerely not understand how big of a problem this guy represents. Sexism is completely and utterly pervasive and wrong, but the "molemen" are more concerned with their precious community's public image.
Neato_Jinkins
Banned
i'm genuinely shocked that people are still having trouble differentiating standard trash talk (which generally revolves around a player's lack of skill at a video game) and harassment based on factors intrinsic to who and what the victim is.
seriously.
He made a public apology for his statements about sexual harassment and has apologized multiple times to Miranda.
As for the "nice guy" thing, there are respected people from the fighting game community who are saying this. This doesn't mean that they support what he did. What they are saying is that he is not sexist, homophobic, racist or whatever impression people got from watching this.
CountAntonius
Member
Absolutely.
BronsonLee
Member
I can't believe this is even up for the discussion, to be perfectly honest with you all.
This is not a one off thing. He Has Done This Before.
The fact that there is even a goddamn discussion beyond, at minimum, making sure he is nowhere near a microphone during stream (and with a stream chat, because he did it to get attention and amuse himself), and best case scenario, shunning the shit out of him.
I don't get where the goalposts are anymore. Is sexual harassment not enough to tell a dude 'hey man, I don't think you should come around anymore'?
COME ON.
And to the guys asking what else he can do? Besides giving empty apologies and whatnot, don't show up for a while. Just don't go. You lost that privilege.
This is not a one off thing. He Has Done This Before.
The fact that there is even a goddamn discussion beyond, at minimum, making sure he is nowhere near a microphone during stream (and with a stream chat, because he did it to get attention and amuse himself), and best case scenario, shunning the shit out of him.
I don't get where the goalposts are anymore. Is sexual harassment not enough to tell a dude 'hey man, I don't think you should come around anymore'?
COME ON.
And to the guys asking what else he can do? Besides giving empty apologies and whatnot, don't show up for a while. Just don't go. You lost that privilege.
Well, sure. Let's do that. I do think we (and me) are too hung up on Aris. How do we make the FGC a more inclusive place? How do we get the message across that this shit is not okay? What will actually make people change their behavior, and in the short term?
Personally, I think the FGC leaders taking this seriously (because they haven't) and establishing set guidelines for what is and isn't okay, with punitive measures to those who step out of line would be one way to start. And again, forget about Aris. This is for stuff going forward.
Note that we have more than one poster (Kirblar, notworksafe) saying that just being a misogynist does not mean you should be banned from FGC tournaments, because it's just words.
FallingEdge
Member
who cares if it is a sausage fest.
If you go to tourneys, just be sure to shower first. Some ridiculous funk be going on all the damn time.
Riposte
Member
Well, I can understand getting him away from a mic, at the least for certain events (for example one officially produced by Capcom lol). I'm totally not okay with not allowing him to "come around" and compete in competition-centric events.
MScoutsDCI
Member
Somebody needs to whip out the ol dictionary and look up "sexual harrasment." I don't know where you learned what you said, but you need to not learn things from that source anymore.
CountAntonius
Member
They need to keep guys off the mic who don't know the difference between being entertaining and being culturally and sexually insensitive. They should call out that behavior when it happens. They also have to understand not everyone is in their circle of friends. Keep the hype and trash talk drop the slurs and harassment.
They can't control individual streams, nor what people say amongst friends but they can and should control their events. Prejudice is everywhere and in every community you can't nullify it completely but you can send out a message that it won't be tolerated. From the tweets and articles I have seen written from many figures in the community they agree it's a time for a change. Look at Level Up for an example how some people have started this way before this event.
That only applies to FGC personalities. That's not the entirety of the problem. It's impossible that Aris is the only person who feels the way he does (and we have stories that no, it's not just him). What about people who aren't on streams/mics? How do you let them know that it's not okay to behave that way, when it happens? How do you make the FGC a more inclusive place?
FunkyMunkey
Banned
Wikipedia: Sexual harassment is intimidation, bullying or coercion of a sexual nature, or the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors.
You can check dictionary.com and other legal sites as well. Unless of course you didn't notice my post was laden with sarcasm in response to someone else here, and thought I was serious in saying he was merely "being an ass".
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