• Register
  • TOS
  • Privacy
  • @NeoGAF
  • Like

Hasphat'sAnts
Member
(10-12-2017, 09:22 PM)
Hasphat'sAnts's Avatar
And honestly it's not surprising to me that half of Weird Twitter came from SA
bigjeffery
Junior Member
(10-12-2017, 09:24 PM)
bigjeffery's Avatar
Yeah, it's not very surprising a good subforum on a good message board spawned the best part of Twitter.
Curious Puppy
Junior Member
(10-12-2017, 09:24 PM)
Curious Puppy's Avatar

Originally Posted by aeolist

if you think that was about them personally ruling the democratic party and not a general statement about centrists needing to move left you might be projecting just a bit

I know that it was a general statement directed towards centrist liberals, but it was a general statement laced with pure venom and hostility and they've demonstrated time and time again they have no interest in actually talking to people who disagree with it. It's just childish, like their fanbase must exclusively be people who just became old enough to vote.
jack_package_200
Member
(10-12-2017, 09:25 PM)
jack_package_200's Avatar

Originally Posted by pigeon

What a weird surprise to discover that the people who love Chapo also love misogyny and racist jokes

I'm so taken aback

timmy
Member
(10-12-2017, 09:25 PM)

Originally Posted by Curious Puppy

Are you actually equivocating this with Chapo regularly spouting ableist garbage insults on their podcast, telling everyone who doesn't align with their smug white Berniebro politics to shut up and get on their knees, that Joy Reid is a phony, etc.?

The ableist language they use deserves scrutiny, but the latter two criticisms here are beyond stupid.
aeolist
Member
(10-12-2017, 09:26 PM)
aeolist's Avatar

Originally Posted by Curious Puppy

I know that it was a general statement directed towards centrist liberals, but it was a general statement laced with pure venom and hostility and they've demonstrated time and time again they have no interest in actually talking to people who disagree with it. It's just childish, like their fanbase must exclusively be people who just became old enough to vote.

i will never condemn anyone on the left who's fed up to the point of hostility with centrist democrats. they deserve all the hate in the world.

edit: i'm 35 in case you want to try that patronizing bullshit again
Catvoca
Member
(10-12-2017, 09:29 PM)
Catvoca's Avatar
I glanced at their sub reddit and I don't even know what you are talking about it saying it's like 4chan. This

Originally Posted by Father_Brain

anyway this is a pretty good discussion on the chapo reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/ChapoTrapHo...uggle_session/

Is a solid and reasonable discussion. it's probably more reasonable than the discussion in this thread.
bigjeffery
Junior Member
(10-12-2017, 09:29 PM)
bigjeffery's Avatar
Maybe I'm just confused because I'm associating all the bad stuff I remember with cum town, their sister podcast, but can someone post evidence of them actually using ableist language to insult someone? Personally, I think as long as it's framed as a joke it's stupid to get upset about it (I know literally all of GAF disagrees with this), but I can't remember Chapo actually doing it.

Originally Posted by Catvoca

I glanced at their sub reddit and I don't even know what you are talking about it saying it's like 4chan. This


Is a solid and reasonable discussion. it's probably more reasonable than the discussion in this thread.


Literally anything funny that some GAFers dislike is "like 4chan."
Father_Brain
Samus made me a Widower :(
(10-12-2017, 09:29 PM)
Father_Brain's Avatar

Originally Posted by jiji

Just peeked at the Chapo subreddit - yikes. Too many channer edgelords.

I'm really not seeing it. Twitter and the SA threads on the show are much closer to that description, tbh
JustenP88
I earned 100 Gamerscore™ for collecting 300 widgets and thereby created Trump's America
(10-12-2017, 09:30 PM)

Originally Posted by Curious Puppy

I know that it was a general statement directed towards centrist liberals, but it was a general statement laced with pure venom and hostility and they've demonstrated time and time again they have no interest in actually talking to people who disagree with it. It's just childish, like their fanbase must exclusively be people who just became old enough to vote.

Are you talking about the attitude centrist Dems had toward anyone who even sniffed a candidate other than the chosen one during the last primary season or are you talking about something else? Hard to keep up.

Motherfuckers spend 6 months calling everyone in the world racist and sexist, telling people to get in line for the guaranteed L "cuz pragmatism" or some bullshit, then continue to be hysterical when those people don't cease to exist.
Curious Puppy
Junior Member
(10-12-2017, 09:31 PM)
Curious Puppy's Avatar

Originally Posted by bigjeffery

Maybe I'm just confused because I'm associating all the bad stuff I remember with cum town, their sister podcast, but can someone post evidence of them actually using ableist language to insult someone? Personally, I think as long as it's framed as a joke it's stupid to get upset about it (I know literally all of GAF disagrees with this), but I can't remember Chapo actually doing it.




Literally anything funny that some GAFers dislike is "like 4chan."

You mean like Bill Maher used the N word "framed as a joke"?

Just stop using the fucking word. Find other words to use that don't inherently degrade the disabled. There's a lot of them out there.
bigjeffery
Junior Member
(10-12-2017, 09:32 PM)
bigjeffery's Avatar

Originally Posted by Curious Puppy

You mean like Bill Maher used the N word "framed as a joke"?

Just stop using the fucking word. Find other words to use that don't inherently degrade the disabled. There's a lot of them out there.

Could you post evidence of Chapo using ableist language as an insult, please?
Hitlersaurus Christ
Member
(10-12-2017, 09:33 PM)
Hitlersaurus Christ's Avatar

Originally Posted by Curious Puppy

You mean like Bill Maher used the N word "framed as a joke"?

Just stop using the fucking word. Find other words to use that don't inherently degrade the disabled. There's a lot of them out there.

You have yet to point out a single example of what you're talking about.
Finale Fireworker
Member
(10-12-2017, 09:34 PM)
Finale Fireworker's Avatar
I like Chapo Trap House. I like having such an unapologetically Left talk show that challenges people to move more left instead of more right. I've listened to them in tandem with Pod Save America for a long time now because I think they counter-weight each other very well. I feel like PSA creates an argument and CTH violently critiques it. This is valuable because whatever is left standing is really solid.

But I do get frustrated with their incredibly flippant rhetoric. Demonizing liberals and treating them as enemies instead of allies feels like something that's going to backfire immensely as the show goes on. I think it's going to create a radicalized left (in the bad way) the same way 4chan created a radicalized right.

This notion that everybody but them is unacceptable garbage is depressing to me. I got in a fight in the comments of the Patreon (I pledge) because of an episode that said minority representation is meaningless, even in their own movement. They made a case for class solidarity instead, which makes sense, but I was really upset that they saw no problem if their platform isn't enticing to women or POCs.

Chapo Trap House, in my opinion, really really needs to invite outside voices who don't already agree with them or aren't being invited for a struggle session. I'd like to see more earnest crossover between CTH and PSA, to be honest.

For now, I still listen to the show and like what they're doing. But I'm slowly finding it more and more juvenile.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
(10-12-2017, 09:34 PM)
TarpitCarnivore's Avatar
I've only listened to a handful of episodes and I tend to enjoy them discussing things in a more harsh way, but it's at times really hard to get past the 'bernie bro' vibe of the show.

It was nice to have Patton on this past week to drive the conversation a little more and keep the humor more in his arena.
jiji
purveyor and connoisseur
of fine gaming specimens
(10-12-2017, 09:34 PM)
jiji's Avatar

Originally Posted by Father_Brain

I'm really not seeing it. Twitter and the SA threads on the show are much closer to that description, tbh



that irony, wew lad
Curious Puppy
Junior Member
(10-12-2017, 09:35 PM)
Curious Puppy's Avatar

Originally Posted by bigjeffery

Could you post evidence of Chapo using ableist language as an insult, please?

I'm not going to track down a specific timestamp on a specific episode, but an easy google search brings you this: http://souciant.com/2017/07/the-chapo-dilemma/

4th paragraph down and then keep going, youtube video as well. I listened to them for a long time before eventually getting fed up, and they did shit like this or shit similar to this on a regular basis. If you don't remember it its because you didn't care, like most people.

They also constantly call things or people "retarded" if they don't like them.
Last edited by Curious Puppy; 10-12-2017 at 09:38 PM.
aeolist
Member
(10-12-2017, 09:37 PM)
aeolist's Avatar

Originally Posted by Finale Fireworker

I like Chapo Trap House. I like having such an unapologetically Left talk show that challenges people to move more left instead of more right. I've listened to them in tandem with Pod Save America for a long time now because I think they counter-weight each other very well. I feel like PSA creates an argument and CTH violently critiques it. This is valuable because whatever is left standing is really solid.

But I do get frustrated with their incredibly flippant rhetoric. Demonizing liberals and treating them as enemies instead of allies feels like something that's going to backfire immensely as the show goes on. I think it's going to create a radicalized left (in the bad way) the same way 4chan created a radicalized right.

This notion that everybody but them is unacceptable garbage is depressing to me. I got in a fight in the comments of the Patreon (I pledge) because of an episode that said minority representation is meaningless, even in their own movement. They made a case for class solidarity instead, which makes sense, but I was really upset that they saw no problem if their platform isn't enticing to women or POCs.

Chapo Trap House, in my opinion, really really needs to invite outside voices who don't already agree with them or aren't being invited for a struggle session. I'd like to see more earnest crossover between CTH and PSA, to be honest.

For now, I still listen to the show and like what they're doing. But I'm slowly finding it more and more juvenile.

you should check out the citations needed podcast (@citationspod)
berzeli
Member
(10-12-2017, 09:40 PM)
berzeli's Avatar
Are people really not getting it? It's even mentioned in the New Yorker profile on them:

Their argument is inextricable from the way in which they make it. But when an ethos of vulgarity is enthusiastically practiced by a group of white men, this will sometimes translate as chauvinism. Particular strains of “Chapo” invective can be hard to take—people are “pussies,” or they’re “retarded.” Botanical gardens are “gay,” Hillary Clinton is “a freak.”

I tried to listen to them but it is hard to take them seriously as being left on social issues with how they frame and debase people they disagree with. I don't think the concept of "dirtbag left" is an admirable or desirable one.
bigjeffery
Junior Member
(10-12-2017, 09:41 PM)
bigjeffery's Avatar

Originally Posted by Curious Puppy

I'm not going to track down a specific timestamp on a specific episode, but an easy google search brings you this: http://souciant.com/2017/07/the-chapo-dilemma/

4th paragraph down and then keep going, youtube video as well. I listened to them for a long time before eventually getting fed up, and they did shit like this or shit similar to this on a regular basis. If you don't remember it its because you didn't care, like most people.

They also constantly call things or people "retarded" if they don't like them.

Fair enough. Personally, I have a hard time seeing any of that stuff posted as being particularly offensive, but I guess everyone has a different tolerance level.

Originally Posted by berzeli

Are people really not getting it? It's even mentioned in the New Yorker profile on them:


I tried to listen to them but it is hard to take them seriously as being left on social issues with how they frame and debase people they disagree with. I don't think the concept of "dirtbag left" is an admirable or desirable one.


I would argue that a huge appeal of the show is that the people they "frame and debase" deserve it, and its nice to see people I ideologically agree with not be afraid to make fun of them.
Last edited by bigjeffery; 10-12-2017 at 09:43 PM.
BUNTING1243
Member
(10-12-2017, 09:44 PM)
BUNTING1243's Avatar
they need to get better at their language because it’s gross and it makes shitty liberals think they have cover to immediately dismiss them and anyone aligned with them politically
jiji
purveyor and connoisseur
of fine gaming specimens
(10-12-2017, 09:45 PM)
jiji's Avatar

Originally Posted by Finale Fireworker

I like Chapo Trap House. I like having such an unapologetically Left talk show that challenges people to move more left instead of more right. I've listened to them in tandem with Pod Save America for a long time now because I think they counter-weight each other very well. I feel like PSA creates an argument and CTH violently critiques it. This is valuable because whatever is left standing is really solid.

But I do get frustrated with their incredibly flippant rhetoric. Demonizing liberals and treating them as enemies instead of allies feels like something that's going to backfire immensely as the show goes on. I think it's going to create a radicalized left (in the bad way) the same way 4chan created a radicalized right.

I generally agree with this. I started listening to PSA first (as 1600 before the election). I like how Chapo generally feels more unshackled and goes a lot harder on certain issues, and doesn't have the smug ads or sometimes dry guest interviews. I appreciate Chapo's leftist, DSA-focused perspective as well as the comedy, but there are some areas where they still need to grow up a bit.
pigeon
fuck yo restraining order
(10-12-2017, 09:45 PM)
pigeon's Avatar

Originally Posted by berzeli

Are people really not getting it?

It's hard to convince people of something when it would require them to actually care about institutionalized discrimination which they benefit from
berzeli
Member
(10-12-2017, 09:46 PM)
berzeli's Avatar

Originally Posted by bigjeffery

I would argue that a huge appeal of the show is that the people they "frame and debase" deserve it, and its nice to see people I ideologically agree with not be afraid to make fun of them.

cool.

-A desire to exploit autistic people:

Will Menaker, Dec. 12, 2016: “This weekend Brandy told me I looked like an ‘undercover autistic cop’ and let’s just say I have a new TV show I’m ready to pitch.”

-Promoting stereotypes about autistic people, like they’re all good at math or obsessed with trains:

Matthew Christman, Dec. 2, 2015: “I must have been double-vaccinated or something because my crippling awareness of social cues and awful math skills make me an anti-autistic.”
-Linking autistic people to criminality and extremism:

Will Menaker, July 27, 2015: “We are witness to a great becoming: the conservative [movement] transforming from one of wealth and reaction to autistic neo-Nazis who worship Odin.”

-Denying the existence of atypical neurology:

Matthew Christman, June 28, 2016: “It wasn’t until the mid-21st century that doctors realized the condition they called ‘autism’ was actually just ‘being online.’”

-Denouncing people they don’t like as being autistic:

Felix Biederman, April 7, 2016: “Pundits live in an atmosphere that is basically a high school for rich autistic kids and believe everyone is like them.”

And it goes on and on.

cool, cool, cool.
bigjeffery
Junior Member
(10-12-2017, 09:48 PM)
bigjeffery's Avatar
Yes, pundits, neo-nazis and online Alt-Right guys all deserve to be made fun of.
berzeli
Member
(10-12-2017, 09:49 PM)
berzeli's Avatar

Originally Posted by bigjeffery

Yes, pundits, neo-nazis and online Alt-Right guys all deserve to be made fun of.

As does people with autism apparently.
Curious Puppy
Junior Member
(10-12-2017, 09:49 PM)
Curious Puppy's Avatar

Originally Posted by berzeli

cool.

cool, cool, cool.

Thanks for this. Its fucking infuriating.

These people could not make their ignorance any more clear. People sticking up for this shit have likely never met a truly disabled person in their lives.

Originally Posted by bigjeffery

Yes, pundits, neo-nazis and online Alt-Right guys all deserve to be made fun of.

And the disabled for being born, I guess. But you personally don't see anything offensive about it, so I guess we should all just handwave it away.
bigjeffery
Junior Member
(10-12-2017, 09:50 PM)
bigjeffery's Avatar

Originally Posted by berzeli

As does people with autism apparently.

When they're pundits, neo-Nazis or Alt-Right guys, sure.
Catvoca
Member
(10-12-2017, 09:51 PM)
Catvoca's Avatar

Originally Posted by BUNTING1243

they need to get better at their language because it’s gross and it makes shitty liberals think they have cover to immediately dismiss them and anyone aligned with them politically

Agreed. Like I'm with them on a lot of their critiques of liberalism and the left but when you listen to show sometimes and hear a bunch of predominantly white dudes using harsh language to make fun of prominent left of centre figures, it can make me cringe a bit. I completely understand people being totally put off by that and not seeing the genuinely funny, insightful or positive things they bring to the table.
pigeon
fuck yo restraining order
(10-12-2017, 09:51 PM)
pigeon's Avatar

Originally Posted by bigjeffery

Yes, pundits, neo-nazis and online Alt-Right guys all deserve to be made fun of.

And what better way to make fun of them then by calling them autistic?

Why not just call them faggots? That would burn them pretty hard too!
Hitlersaurus Christ
Member
(10-12-2017, 09:52 PM)
Hitlersaurus Christ's Avatar
OK, I understand that those can be offensive but that article is reaching with stuff like the "denying the existence of atypical neurology" one. That's COMPLETELY missing what was being said for the sake of it.

Originally Posted by pigeon

And what better way to make fun of them then by calling them autistic?

Why not just call them faggots? That would burn them pretty hard too!

Well, I'd assume they were trying to infer they were bad at picking up on social cues. Offensive though it may be it's not being used as a blanket insult.
Last edited by Hitlersaurus Christ; 10-12-2017 at 09:54 PM.
jiji
purveyor and connoisseur
of fine gaming specimens
(10-12-2017, 09:53 PM)
jiji's Avatar
Like, Hillary has her problems, but when Chapo does an entire segment/group rant going after her, the result can sound pretty indistinguishable from the_donald or wherever.
berzeli
Member
(10-12-2017, 09:53 PM)
berzeli's Avatar

Originally Posted by bigjeffery

When they're pundits, neo-Nazis or Alt-Right guys, sure.

Are you intentionally not getting it at this point? They're not just making fun of right wingers even in those examples posted.
And even if they were, using autistic as a slur is utterly despicable.

But hey, if this is what the American left strives to then you fucking deserve Trump.

Originally Posted by Hitlersaurus Christ

OK, I understand that those can be offensive but that article is reaching with stuff like the "denying the existence of atypical neurology" one. That's COMPLETELY missing what was being said for the sake of it.

Almost as much as you're missing what is being said if that is your takeaway.
Curious Puppy
Junior Member
(10-12-2017, 09:54 PM)
Curious Puppy's Avatar

Originally Posted by bigjeffery

When they're pundits, neo-Nazis or Alt-Right guys, sure.

Then address how stupid it is that they're pundits, neo-Nazi's, or Alt-Righters instead of generalizing them into a net as wide as the entire spectrum of Autism. Why even bring mental disability into the conversation? Do you know how many autistic people can't even speak? Are they alt-righters and neo-nazis too? Generalizing like that serves no one and only exposes your own ignorance.
aeolist
Member
(10-12-2017, 09:56 PM)
aeolist's Avatar

Originally Posted by Hitlersaurus Christ

OK, I understand that those can be offensive but that article is reaching with stuff like the "denying the existence of atypical neurology" one. That's COMPLETELY missing what was being said for the sake of it.

eh, those jokes are shitty even if they weren't intended that way

i had never seen any of this because i didn't follow any of them on twitter before the end of last year and had never heard jokes like this on the show, but it's maki g me reconsider my patreon pledge
BUNTING1243
Member
(10-12-2017, 09:57 PM)
BUNTING1243's Avatar

Originally Posted by Curious Puppy

Thanks for this. Its fucking infuriating.

These people could not make their ignorance any more clear. People sticking up for this shit have likely never met a truly disabled person in their lives.



And the disabled for being born, I guess. But you personally don't see anything offensive about it, so I guess we should all just handwave it away.

i have close family that are differently abled, please stop with your assumptions about anyone’s lived experiences.
kadotsu
Member
(10-12-2017, 09:59 PM)
kadotsu's Avatar
The weird thing is that they clearly got the comedic chops to get their point across without the stuff that could have been written by the conservative comics they make fun off. They need to get rid of their internet atheist ownage instincts.
JustenP88
I earned 100 Gamerscore™ for collecting 300 widgets and thereby created Trump's America
(10-12-2017, 09:59 PM)
I don't know how I've missed that the whole point of this podcast is shitty autism jokes and explaining that white male privilege isn't actually a thing.

Holy shit. All that flew right over my head.
Tankman
Junior Member
(10-12-2017, 09:59 PM)
Tankman's Avatar

Originally Posted by Hitlersaurus Christ

OK, I understand that those can be offensive but that article is reaching with stuff like the "denying the existence of atypical neurology" one. That's COMPLETELY missing what was being said for the sake of it.

Most of those examples are grasping at straws. If we are going to read a comedy podcast completety straight, where was the outrage when Chapo repeatedly endorsed pedophilia with #freejared. Irreverent ironic jokes combined with adovcacy for real leftist policy is the appeal of the show.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
(10-12-2017, 10:00 PM)
The Technomancer's Avatar
I listened to a few episodes right after the election because I needed catharsis, and I checked the fuck out. Not what I was looking for. The person above who said that they have basically 0% positive interest in anyone who isn't already on board with everything they believe in is spot on, which is especially rich considering some of the legit criticism they get from various marginalized folks

Mostly I'm just done with irony. Fuck irony. Its a poison that is killing the left
bigjeffery
Junior Member
(10-12-2017, 10:01 PM)
bigjeffery's Avatar

Originally Posted by Curious Puppy

Then address how stupid it is that they're pundits, neo-Nazi's, or Alt-Righters instead of generalizing them into a net as wide as the entire spectrum of Autism. Why even bring mental disability into the conversation? Do you know how many autistic people can't even speak? Are they alt-righters and neo-nazis too? Generalizing like that serves no one and only exposes your own ignorance.

Because it's a joke.

There's probably no point in continuing this conversation as I think there's a fundamental disconnect in the way each of us view humor.
pigeon
fuck yo restraining order
(10-12-2017, 10:01 PM)
pigeon's Avatar

Originally Posted by kadotsu

The weird thing is that they clearly got the comedic chops to get their point across without the stuff that could have been written by the conservative comics they make fun off. They need to get rid of their internet atheist ownage instincts.

I admire your willingness to believe this isn't just who they are as people, just like a large proportion of their fanbase.

Originally Posted by bigjeffery

Because it's a joke.

Like this guy. Literally what the people sending gas chamber memes are saying.
Squire
Member
(10-12-2017, 10:01 PM)
Squire's Avatar

Originally Posted by Tankman

Most of those examples are grasping at straws. If we are going to read a comedy podcast completety straight, where was the outrage when Chapo repeatedly endorsed pedophilia with #freejared. Irreverent ironic jokes combined with adovcacy for real leftist policy is the appeal of the show.

This is Chan humor.
Curious Puppy
Junior Member
(10-12-2017, 10:02 PM)
Curious Puppy's Avatar

Originally Posted by Tankman

Most of those examples are grasping at straws. If we are going to read a comedy podcast completety straight, where was the outrage when Chapo repeatedly endorsed pedophilia with #freejared. Irreverent ironic jokes combined with adovcacy for real leftist policy is the appeal of the show.

It's really easy to say "haha its just a joke" when you aren't actually affected or know anyone who's affected by ableist language. It's a fucking poison and I'm sick of seeing proclaimed leftists say it isn't a big deal when they're actually in no place whatsoever to say whether its a big deal or not.

Originally Posted by bigjeffery

Because it's a joke.

No, you don't get to say whatever you want and use "it's a joke" as an excuse. You're just demonstrating a profound lack of understanding in how society normalizes and accepts behavior.
jiji
purveyor and connoisseur
of fine gaming specimens
(10-12-2017, 10:02 PM)
jiji's Avatar

Originally Posted by Tankman

Most of those examples are grasping at straws. If we are going to read a comedy podcast completety straight, where was the outrage when Chapo repeatedly endorsed pedophilia with #freejared. Irreverent ironic jokes combined with adovcacy for real leftist policy is the appeal of the show.

NGL posts like this make me start to reconsider my monthly pledge.
Hitlersaurus Christ
Member
(10-12-2017, 10:03 PM)
Hitlersaurus Christ's Avatar

Originally Posted by berzeli

Are you intentionally not getting it at this point? They're not just making fun of right wingers even in those examples posted.
And even if they were, using autistic as a slur is utterly despicable.

But hey, if this is what the American left strives to then you fucking deserve Trump.

Almost as much as you're missing what is being said if that is your takeaway.

I get the idea behind what's being said, but I think that article was put together by someone with no regard for the actual content of those quotes. (not that they were of any sort of substance of course)

And for the record I have family members on various levels of the spectrum, since apparently people are questioning that now?
pigeon
fuck yo restraining order
(10-12-2017, 10:04 PM)
pigeon's Avatar

Originally Posted by The Technomancer

Fuck irony. Its a poison that is killing the left

Ironically, it's actually lead.

Originally Posted by Hitlersaurus Christ

I get the idea behind what's being said, but I think that article was put together by someone with no regard for the actual content of any of those quotes.

And for the record I have family members on various levels of the spectrum, since apparently people are questioning that now?

Actually we're just pointing out that that shit is deeply offensive but good to hear you have black friends buddy
aeolist
Member
(10-12-2017, 10:05 PM)
aeolist's Avatar
the joke about "free jared fogle" is that felix is an idiot. that's fine.

the joke in those autism tweets is "these bad things are because of autism" which isn't fine.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
(10-12-2017, 10:05 PM)
The Technomancer's Avatar
Like I get it, I get the utility they serve. Shit sucks, especially if you're a leftist, listening to some funny people who agree with you has emotional value. But these guys?
PBY
(10-12-2017, 10:05 PM)
PBY's Avatar
All of the criticisms on this page are 100% dead on.

Thread Tools