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timmy
Member
(10-12-2017, 10:06 PM)
Guys, there is only one occasion on which it is ok to accept the bad with the good, and it's when you're voting for president.
Father_Brain
Samus made me a Widower :(
(10-12-2017, 10:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by BUNTING1243

they need to get better at their language because it’s gross and it makes shitty liberals think they have cover to immediately dismiss them and anyone aligned with them politically

and on the listener side: it's frustrating to see so much bad-faith criticism of something you like, but it's important to resist the temptation to get overly defensive and instead point out when they do things like the Cosby tweet or the autism jokes that really are problematic. doesn't do anyone any good to put a podcast up on a pedestal
kadotsu
Member
(10-12-2017, 10:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by pigeon

I admire your willingness to believe this isn't just who they are as people, just like a large proportion of their fanbase.

I have no delusions about what they are. It is just me expressing my sadness that the only semi-popular voice for a 18-25 audience that promotes capitalism critique is such a deeply flawed (to the point of uselessness) one. I'm especially sad that they almost completely displace racism as just another form of capitalistic exploitation when it is clear that those problems are to a certain extent disjunct.
Curious Puppy
Junior Member
(10-12-2017, 10:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hitlersaurus Christ

I get the idea behind what's being said, but I think that article was put together by someone with no regard for the actual content of those quotes. (not that they were of any sort of substance of course)

And for the record I have family members on various levels of the spectrum, since apparently people are questioning that now?

I'm not necessarily questioning it, I'm just really really surprised that anyone who personally knows disabled people would find this kind of language acceptable. I'm friends with several autism parents, and they can't stand hearing this shit.
pigeon
fuck yo restraining order
(10-12-2017, 10:08 PM)
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Originally Posted by BUNTING1243

they need to get better at their language because it’s gross and it makes shitty liberals think they have cover to immediately dismiss them and anyone aligned with them politically

When people defend them for doing this shit it does justify dismissing them. Lie down with racist dogs, get up with racist fleas.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
(10-12-2017, 10:08 PM)
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Originally Posted by kadotsu

I have no delusions about what they are. It is just me expressing my sadness that the only semi-popular voice for a 18-25 audience that promotes capitalism critique is such a deeply flawed (to the point of uselessness) one. I'm especially sad that they almost completely displace racism as just another form of capitalistic exploitation when it is clear that those problems are to a certain extent disjunct.

You and I are basically in the same boat, and I also just can't stand listening to these guys and don't like the effect I perceive them having

Like, fuck, can't we have something better?
nomis
(10-12-2017, 10:09 PM)
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Originally Posted by jiji

Like, Hillary has her problems, but when Chapo does an entire segment/group rant going after her, the result can sound pretty indistinguishable from the_donald or wherever.

maybe if you willfully ignore or can’t comprehend the substance of their criticism of her place in the neoliberal imperialist machine
berzeli
Member
(10-12-2017, 10:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by aeolist

eh, those jokes are shitty even if they weren't intended that way

i had never seen any of this because i didn't follow any of them on twitter before the end of last year and had never heard jokes like this on the show, but it's maki g me reconsider my patreon pledge

Originally Posted by jiji

NGL posts like this make me start to reconsider my monthly pledge.

If you haven't heard/seen this you haven't been listening or looking, it is super blatant.

Originally Posted by Hitlersaurus Christ

I get the idea behind what's being said, but I think that article was put together by someone with no regard for the actual content of those quotes. (not that they were of any sort of substance of course)

And for the record I have family members on various levels of the spectrum, since apparently people are questioning that now?

Ignore the writer's opinion then and just look at the quotes, are you really comfortable with autism being used as a slur and a punchline? Because that is the point, that the Chapo guys are really, really, really comfortable using marginalised groups as such rhetorical devices.
jiji
purveyor and connoisseur
of fine gaming specimens
(10-12-2017, 10:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by nomis

maybe if you willfully ignore or can’t comprehend the substance of their criticism of her place in the neoliberal imperialist machine

Like when they go on a jag indulging in conspiracy theories about her health? Is that about her place in the neoliberal imperialist machine?
Finale Fireworker
Member
(10-12-2017, 10:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by aeolist

you should check out the citations needed podcast (@citationspod)

I will - thank you. I haven't listened to anything yet, but I'm checking them out.

Originally Posted by jiji

I generally agree with this. I started listening to PSA first (as 1600 before the election). I like how Chapo generally feels more unshackled and goes a lot harder on certain issues, and doesn't have the smug ads or sometimes dry guest interviews. I appreciate Chapo's leftist, DSA-focused perspective as well as the comedy, but there are some areas where they still need to grow up a bit.

Even as a patron, I don't even know how to broach this sort of criticism with them. And I think that's also part of the problem. I'm a fan, and a follower, and a subscriber, and have actually been following all the personalities long before they had a podcast. But I don't feel like I can talk to them or interact with them at all. But they supposedly listen to comments, because they'll unlock episodes when patrons recommend it, but I wish there was a stronger community aspect to the show. I think that would help.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
(10-12-2017, 10:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by aeolist

you should check out the citations needed podcast (@citationspod)

Giving this a look
jiji
purveyor and connoisseur
of fine gaming specimens
(10-12-2017, 10:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by berzeli

If you haven't heard/seen this you haven't been listening or looking, it is super blatant.

I've seen it, just not to the extent some have mentioned in here. What bothers me more is to see excuses or cheering for it.
nomis
(10-12-2017, 10:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by jiji

Like when they go on a jag indulging in conspiracy theories about her health? Is that about her place in the neoliberal imperialist machine?

she just made 20 million dollars cashing in on a disastrous historical inflection point with a book full of blame games

she doesn’t need you defending her character or health from being besmirched by a bunch of angry podcasters. they fuckin voted for her.
jiji
purveyor and connoisseur
of fine gaming specimens
(10-12-2017, 10:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by nomis

she just made 20 million dollars cashing in on a disastrous historical inflection point with a book full of blame games

she doesn’t need you defending her character or health from being besmirched by a bunch of angry podcasters. they fuckin voted for her.

Well, this post speaks for itself.
Curious Puppy
Junior Member
(10-12-2017, 10:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by nomis

she just made 20 million dollars cashing in on a disastrous historical inflection point with a book full of blame games

she doesn’t need you defending her character or health from being besmirched by a bunch of angry podcasters. they fuckin voted for her.

What the fuck?
jack_package_200
Member
(10-12-2017, 10:22 PM)
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I am glad to see some introspection going on here in regards to this podcast.

Leftists deserve better!

Originally Posted by jiji

Well, this post speaks for itself.

Originally Posted by Curious Puppy

What the fuck?

Seems pretty standard for Nomis.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
(10-12-2017, 10:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by nomis

she just made 20 million dollars cashing in on a disastrous historical inflection point with a book full of blame games

she doesn’t need you defending her character or health from being besmirched by a bunch of angry podcasters. they fuckin voted for her.

At what point do Chapos own finances become game for criticism?
Last edited by The Technomancer; 10-12-2017 at 10:31 PM.
Dude Abides
Member
(10-12-2017, 10:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by nomis

maybe if you willfully ignore or can’t comprehend the substance of their criticism of her place in the neoliberal imperialist machine

I hope everybody marked three spaces on their bingo cards.
nomis
(10-12-2017, 10:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by jiji

Well, this post speaks for itself.

Originally Posted by Curious Puppy

What the fuck?

So making jokes about Clinton passing out on the campaign trail is “indulging conspiracies”? They don’t talk about her “kill list” or that “Clinton Cash” bs documentary or any of the other stuff that conservatives have been spewing about her since her husband was in office. But ya you’re right if you plug your ears a little bit they’re basically indistinguishable from a far right podcast
nomis
(10-12-2017, 10:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by The Technomancer

At what point do Chapos own finances become game for criticism?

When they achieve political office and get people of color in the middle east blown to smithereens with their policies? When they become the democratic candidate and have such hubris that they lose 2020 to Donald Trump? I don’t know where that line is for me actually. They’ve lately tried to lampshade their immense patreon income with jokey throwaway lines, but I don’t know how long they can keep that up without seriously addressing it themselves.
Squire
Member
(10-12-2017, 10:31 PM)
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I don't know how you can say Dems need to stop inching rightward, but it's A-OK for leftists to preach with an alt-right aesthetic.

Gross shit is gross. It's not that complicated.
Hitlersaurus Christ
Member
(10-12-2017, 10:33 PM)
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Because an "alt-right aesthetic" is a arbitrary concept that is completely subjective?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
(10-12-2017, 10:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hitlersaurus Christ

Because an "alt-right aesthetic" is a arbitrary concept that is completely subjective?

Rhetoric is not cleanly divisible from politics. We need to be able to critique rhetorical strategies on the grounds that they influence the politics they express
Squire
Member
(10-12-2017, 10:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hitlersaurus Christ

Because an "alt-right aesthetic" is a arbitrary concept that is completely subjective?

They think it's funny to call people autistic. It's a mainstay of Chan humor.

You're being a little obtuse about this, at best.
pigeon
fuck yo restraining order
(10-12-2017, 10:38 PM)
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Forum/chan/reddit culture really did a number on an entire generation of dudes.
PBY
(10-12-2017, 10:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by pigeon

Forum/chan/reddit culture really did a number on an entire generation of dudes.

Add in gaming, but no lie.

Pretty much any sub-culture that is male-dominated that became part of those dudes' identities = in the bushes.
Curious Puppy
Junior Member
(10-12-2017, 10:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by pigeon

Forum/chan/reddit culture really did a number on an entire generation of dudes.

Yep. And they've crossed into their 20s being staunchly defensive of their warped sense of humor. They're fucked.
Dude Abides
Member
(10-12-2017, 10:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by Squire

They think it's funny to call people autistic. It's a mainstay of Chan humor.

You're being a little obtuse about this, at best.

You're arguing with a guy who chose "Hitlersaurus Christ" as a username.
Tain
Member
(10-12-2017, 10:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by Father_Brain

and on the listener side: it's frustrating to see so much bad-faith criticism of something you like, but it's important to resist the temptation to get overly defensive and instead point out when they do things like the Cosby tweet or the autism jokes that really are problematic. doesn't do anyone any good to put a podcast up on a pedestal

yuup

the cosby tweet is pretty dumb
trh
Nifty AND saffron-colored!
(10-12-2017, 10:44 PM)
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It's definitely my least favorite part of the shows, but I don't think them indulging in bullshit low brow rhetoric is quite the same as the right wing propaganda. They peddle some dumb stuff with insincere tones presuming the audience understands what's going on, unlike the right wing that literally tries to pass off complete fabrications as truths by deceiving and lying to their audience. It's very different.
PBY
(10-12-2017, 10:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by trh

It's definitely my least favorite part of the shows, but I don't think them indulging in bullshit low brow rhetoric is quite the same as the right wing propaganda. They peddle some dumb stuff with insincere tones presuming the audience understands what's going on, unlike the right wing that literally tries to pass off complete fabrications as truths by deceiving and lying to their audience. It's very different.

At some point, through layers of whatever presumed irony or justification based on intent you grant them, its effectively the same.

Also - THEY HAVE A GREAT MESSAGE. This doesn't help promote their ideals to a broader group, when effectively their message and platform is clearly not a safe space for marginalized groups. I'm not involved with the DSA, but I can't imagine that they're happy with this (one of the dudes is an LA chair or something?). Fuck that.
aeolist
Member
(10-12-2017, 10:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by Dude Abides

You're arguing with a guy who chose "Hitlersaurus Christ" as a username.

ok this is pretty funny
pigeon
fuck yo restraining order
(10-12-2017, 10:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by trh

It's definitely my least favorite part of the shows, but I don't think them indulging in bullshit low brow rhetoric is quite the same as the right wing propaganda. They peddle some dumb stuff with insincere tones presuming the audience understands what's going on, unlike the right wing that literally tries to pass off complete fabrications as truths by deceiving and lying to their audience. It's very different.

"If you were a real fan you'd know they didn't really mean it and they're actually good guys."
PBY
(10-12-2017, 10:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by pigeon

"If you were a real fan you'd know they didn't really mean it and they're actually good guys."

How is this different from the defense of Milo from the right?
BUNTING1243
Member
(10-12-2017, 10:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by PBY

At some point, through layers of whatever presumed irony or justification based on intent you grant them, its effectively the same.

Also - THEY HAVE A GREAT MESSAGE. This doesn't help promote their ideals to a broader group, when effectively their message and platform is clearly not a safe space for marginalized groups. I'm not involved with the DSA, but I can't imagine that they're happy with this (one of the dudes is an LA chair or something?). Fuck that.

I think it depends on what they are talking about, the Cosby joke absolutely crossed the line. I would feel better about it if they seemed to be learning at all, but none of them seem to have minus Felix.

And yeah, it really undercuts the message and that sucks. They have a lot of potential
Hierophant
Member
(10-12-2017, 10:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by pigeon

"If you were a real fan you'd know they didn't really mean it and they're actually good guys."

but they don't mean it?

unless you genuinely believe felix wants to free jared fogle?
PBY
(10-12-2017, 10:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hierophant

but they don't mean it?

unless you genuinely believe felix wants to free jared fogle?

At some point there's no fucking difference?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
(10-12-2017, 10:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by PBY

How is this different from the defense of Milo from the right?

Pigeon is saying that as criticism, unfortunately demonstrating the exact point he was trying to make himself!
Hierophant
Member
(10-12-2017, 10:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by PBY

How is this different from the defense of Milo from the right?

because milo is actually a fucking shitbag monster who wrote about black crime for his horrifically racist magazine for years and steadily made it vogue to be alt-right for a bunch of chuds

get a grip dude
PBY
(10-12-2017, 10:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by The Technomancer

Pigeon is saying that as criticism, unfortunately demonstrating the exact point he was trying to make himself!

I agree with him.

Originally Posted by Hierophant

because milo is actually a fucking shitbag monster who wrote about black crime for his horrifically racist magazine for years and steadily made it vogue to be alt-right for a bunch of chuds

get a grip dude

I'm not equating Milo and Chapo - but the defense is effectively the same. "He's trolling, his hateful language isn't real, he doesn't mean it, triggered much?", etc. etc.
Hitlersaurus Christ
Member
(10-12-2017, 10:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by Squire

They think it's funny to call people autistic. It's a mainstay of Chan humor.

You're being a little obtuse about this, at best.

And that's fair enough, but not everything that is offensive in that sense should qualify as an "alt-right aesthetic."
Hierophant
Member
(10-12-2017, 10:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by PBY

I agree with him.



I'm not equating Milo and Chapo - but the defense is effectively the same. "He's trolling, his hateful language isn't real, he doesn't mean it, triggered much?", etc. etc.

if you go onto the chapo reddit (biggest community for the pod) and look at the current myriad of discussion and callout posts, nobody is saying "triggered much?", mostly just talking about bad the joke is

https://www.reddit.com/r/ChapoTrapHo...ou_have_to_be/

its definitely not real but its agreed its not good either there
pigeon
fuck yo restraining order
(10-12-2017, 10:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hierophant

but they don't mean it?

unless you genuinely believe felix wants to free jared fogle?

Do you genuinely believe those twitter trolls want to stuff Ben Shapiro in a gas chamber?

Does that make it fine?

(Also, some of them clearly do, but that just emphasizes my point.)
trh
Nifty AND saffron-colored!
(10-12-2017, 10:58 PM)
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Even ignoring intent, what they're doing is vastly different from alt right figureheads. People like Milo and PJW are fabricating lies by twisting truths and sometimes completely making things up. CTH don't do that. It is incredibly disingenuous to say they're the leftist version of those people.
Hierophant
Member
(10-12-2017, 10:58 PM)
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Originally Posted by pigeon

Do you genuinely believe those twitter trolls want to stuff Ben Shapiro in a gas chamber?

Does that make it fine?

wait when did they ever say they wanted to shove him into a gas chamber?

and no i guess it isn't?

which is funny because all they do is just make short jokes about him

the only people i've seen them come close to anything like that would be like kissinger, hoping he croaks soon (which i do too honestly)
PBY
(10-12-2017, 10:59 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hierophant

if you go onto the chapo reddit (biggest community for the pod) and look at the current myriad of discussion and callout posts, nobody is saying "triggered much?", mostly just talking about bad the joke is

https://www.reddit.com/r/ChapoTrapHo...ou_have_to_be/

its definitely not real but its agreed its not good either there

I'm not trying to shit on the Chapo community -
https://www.reddit.com/r/ChapoTrapHo...uggle_session/

Think this is a better discussion (with a minority - but still a good portion - of bad responses that clearly don't get it).
mlclmtckr
Member
(10-12-2017, 11:00 PM)
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Pretty bad thread tbh

Originally Posted by jiji

Like, Hillary has her problems, but when Chapo does an entire segment/group rant going after her, the result can sound pretty indistinguishable from the_donald or wherever.

This is disingenuous. If you literally cannot tell the difference between right wing and left wing criticism of the same person then I honestly hope you can't vote.

Politics is about more important shit than civility toward wealthy political failures. If your political worldview is based entirely on politeness then it is worse than useless. If you cannot distinguish anti-imperialist criticism of foreign policy from literal fascism then you might just not actually believe in anything.

Originally Posted by JustenP88

I don't know how I've missed that the whole point of this podcast is shitty autism jokes and explaining that white male privilege isn't actually a thing.

Holy shit. All that flew right over my head.

There is a lot of bad-faith shitposting in this thread but there is also some genuine concern. I think those concerns are misplaced but liberals really honestly do believe that any reference to oppression or discrimination must be entirely gravely serious or else it is basically /pol/. Even explicitly sarcastic rephrasings of their opponents' political beliefs are taken as shitty white dudebro brodude brocislist white male bro privilege.

Personally as a poc I have never, ever felt uncomfortable or hurt listening to the show. But I don't really subscribe to the "don't look into the abyss" school of online political discourse.

Originally Posted by pigeon

Forum/chan/reddit culture really did a number on an entire generation of dudes.

This post is the exact opposite side of that coin though.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
(10-12-2017, 11:00 PM)
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I think we're getting into the weeds a bit too much by comparing them to the depths of awfulness of the right, a level on which they are very obviously not. That doesn't mean the issues some people are raising in here are less valid
pigeon
fuck yo restraining order
(10-12-2017, 11:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hierophant

wait when did they ever say they wanted to shove him into a gas chamber?

and no i guess it isn't?

which is funny because all they do is just make short jokes about him

That’s what the pictures of him in a gas chamber they keep sending him are meant to signify, genius.

So if that’s not okay does that maybe imply that just saying “this is a joke lol” doesn’t actually make any meme you want to throw out there okay?

Edit: I’m talking about the Nazi twitter trolls, I’m not suggesting Chapo is doing this.
PBY
(10-12-2017, 11:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by mlclmtckr

Pretty bad thread tbh



This is disingenuous. If you literally cannot tell the difference between right wing and left wing criticism of the same person then I honestly hope you can't vote.

Politics is about more important shit than civility toward wealthy political failures. If your political worldview is based entirely on politeness then it is worse than useless. If you cannot distinguish anti-imperialist criticism of foreign policy from literal fascism then you might just not actually believe in anything.



There is a lot of bad-faith shitposting in this thread but there is also some genuine concern. I think those concerns are misplaced but liberals really honestly do believe that any reference to oppression or discrimination must be entirely gravely serious or else it is basically /pol/. Even explicitly sarcastic rephrasings of their opponents' political beliefs are taken as shitty white dudebro brodude brocislist white male bro privilege.

Personally as a poc I have never, ever felt uncomfortable or hurt listening to the show. But I don't really subscribe to the "don't look into the abyss" school of online political discourse.



This post is the exact opposite side of that coin though.

Way to totally miss the part where women lefties and other minority DSA members felt uncomfortable. That's where you have a problem.

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