• Register
  • TOS
  • Privacy
  • @NeoGAF
  • Like

The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
(10-12-2017, 11:02 PM)
The Technomancer's Avatar

Originally Posted by mlclmtckr

There is a lot of bad-faith shitposting in this thread but there is also some genuine concern. I think those concerns are misplaced but liberals really honestly do believe that any reference to oppression or discrimination must be entirely gravely serious or else it is basically /pol/. Even explicitly sarcastic rephrasings of their opponents' political beliefs are taken as shitty white dudebro brodude brocislist white male bro privilege.

Personally as a poc I have never, ever felt uncomfortable or hurt listening to the show. But I don't really subscribe to the "don't look into the abyss" school of online political discourse.

I suspect I would have less of a problem with Chapo if I ever perceived a degree of significant self reflection by them or by their fanbase. I don't need everything to be gravely serious, but I do think that they get away with (including to themselves) shitty stuff because they've told themselves they "have the right opinions"
Hierophant
Member
(10-12-2017, 11:03 PM)
Hierophant's Avatar

Originally Posted by The Technomancer

I think we're getting into the weeds a bit too much by comparing them to the depths of awfulness of the right, a level on which they are very obviously not. That doesn't mean the issues some people are raising in here are less valid

i agree, they do make shitty jokes that they shouldn't have made and they usually apologise for it and make up in some way (usually donating to a charity)

in the end i just don't like to see them compared to the alt-right when they clearly are better than all of those clowns
PBY
(10-12-2017, 11:03 PM)
PBY's Avatar

Originally Posted by The Technomancer

I suspect I would have less of a problem with Chapo if I ever perceived a degree of significant self reflection by them or by their fanbase. I don't need everything to be gravely serious, but I do think that they get away with (including to themselves) shitty stuff because they've told themselves they "have the right opinions"

This is a good thread
https://www.reddit.com/r/ChapoTrapHo...uggle_session/

There's a lot of bad posts. But also a lot of introspection, and more importantly, good posts by women.

They do get away with a lot btw.

Originally Posted by Hierophant

i agree, they do make shitty jokes that they shouldn't have made and they usually apologise for it and make up in some way (usually donating to a charity)

in the end i just don't like to see them compared to the alt-right when they clearly are better than all of those clowns

Who compared them to the alt-right directly ?
jiji
purveyor and connoisseur
of fine gaming specimens
(10-12-2017, 11:06 PM)
jiji's Avatar

Originally Posted by mlclmtckr

This is disingenuous. If you literally cannot tell the difference between right wing and left wing criticism of the same person then I honestly hope you can't vote.

Politics is about more important shit than civility toward wealthy political failures. If your political worldview is based entirely on politeness then it is worse than useless. If you cannot distinguish anti-imperialist criticism of foreign policy from literal fascism then you might just not actually believe in anything.

So either you think Hillary is Literally Satan or you are Literally Mussolini. OK

Most of the Chapo crew's criticism of Hillary is spot-on, but I don't find the aggrieved rants about irrelevant stuff about her to be useful to any conversation.
Last edited by jiji; 10-12-2017 at 11:11 PM.
trh
Nifty AND saffron-colored!
(10-12-2017, 11:08 PM)
trh's Avatar

Originally Posted by PBY

Who compared them to the alt-right directly ?

They were compared to the_Donald and were said to have an alt right aesthetic on the previous page.
pigeon
fuck yo restraining order
(10-12-2017, 11:09 PM)
pigeon's Avatar

Originally Posted by mlclmtckr

Pretty bad thread tbh



This is disingenuous. If you literally cannot tell the difference between right wing and left wing criticism of the same person then I honestly hope you can't vote.

Politics is about more important shit than civility toward wealthy political failures. If your political worldview is based entirely on politeness then it is worse than useless. If you cannot distinguish anti-imperialist criticism of foreign policy from literal fascism then you might just not actually believe in anything.



There is a lot of bad-faith shitposting in this thread but there is also some genuine concern. I think those concerns are misplaced but liberals really honestly do believe that any reference to oppression or discrimination must be entirely gravely serious or else it is basically /pol/. Even explicitly sarcastic rephrasings of their opponents' political beliefs are taken as shitty white dudebro brodude brocislist white male bro privilege.

Personally as a poc I have never, ever felt uncomfortable or hurt listening to the show. But I don't really subscribe to the "don't look into the abyss" school of online political discourse.



This post is the exact opposite side of that coin though.

Iím really disappointed to see this post. Last time we talked about this you said that youíd never encountered any non-intersectional people in the left and you didnít really think they were a meaningful contingent. I believed you! But here you are, in a thread literally full of people arguing that intersectional concerns are unimportant, and youíre posting that actually theyíre fine and thereís no problem.

Not gonna lie, thatís really a bummer.
mlclmtckr
Member
(10-12-2017, 11:10 PM)
mlclmtckr's Avatar

Originally Posted by PBY

I agree with him.



I'm not equating Milo and Chapo - but the defense is effectively the same. "He's trolling, his hateful language isn't real, he doesn't mean it, triggered much?", etc. etc.

Milo's fans believe the things he says and only call it satire when they get called out as a way of annoying and frustrating liberals

Chapos fans are not actually supporters of Erdogan or Jared Fogle, and they only call it satire because it very obviously isn't serious and this discussion only happens when liberals get intentionally obtuse about this exact point.

People posting about white genocide using "it's ironic" as a cover is, actually, in any sane understanding of human behaviour, not the same as someone talking about the traitor Gulen to get laughs.

Internet reactionaries using "it's ironic" as a half-assed dodge somehow convinced all the extremely online libs that irony actually doesn't exist
Hierophant
Member
(10-12-2017, 11:14 PM)
Hierophant's Avatar

Originally Posted by pigeon

That’s what the pictures of him in a gas chamber they keep sending him are meant to signify, genius.

So if that’s not okay does that maybe imply that just saying “this is a joke lol” doesn’t actually make any meme you want to throw out there okay?

Edit: I’m talking about the Nazi twitter trolls, I’m not suggesting Chapo is doing this.

well yeah of course thats not okay, but bringing up nazi twitter trolls is kinda a bit on the absolute far side and they are nowhere in the same ballpark for intent, i can very genuinely believe that a bunch of those pepes want to shove ben shapiro into a gas chamber

not a single way you can convince me that any member of chapo actually wants jared fogle to go free or gulen to burn, or to use the bad joke spouted today, bill cosbys star to stay forever

chapo do make shitty jokes they shouldn't make sometimes and i can totally understand the dislike of it, this is peak irony poisoning and in poor taste and probably shouldn't have left the twitter submit box
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
(10-12-2017, 11:16 PM)
The Technomancer's Avatar

Originally Posted by mlclmtckr

Milo's fans believe the things he says and only call it satire when they get called out as a way of annoying and frustrating liberals

Chapos fans are not actually supporters of Erdogan or Jared Fogle, and they only call it satire because it very obviously isn't serious and this discussion only happens when liberals get intentionally obtuse about this exact point.

People posting about white genocide using "it's ironic" as a cover is, actually, in any sane understanding of human behaviour, not the same as someone talking about the traitor Gulen to get laughs.

Internet reactionaries using "it's ironic" as a half-assed dodge somehow convinced all the extremely online libs that irony actually doesn't exist

Which sort of brings us back to the "autistic" thing, because those are the jokes that seem the least "hurr I'm pretending to be a dipshit conservative" and more just...like actual jokes, that reflect an actual perspective
mlclmtckr
Member
(10-12-2017, 11:19 PM)
mlclmtckr's Avatar

Originally Posted by pigeon

Iím really disappointed to see this post. Last time we talked about this you said that youíd never encountered any non-intersectional people in the left and you didnít really think they were a meaningful contingent. I believed you! But here you are, in a thread literally full of people arguing that intersectional concerns are unimportant, and youíre posting that actually theyíre fine and thereís no problem.

Not gonna lie, thatís really a bummer.

The last time we talked kirblar ran me out of the thread getting the local GAF #resistance all riled up about some completely disingenuous anti immigrant bullshit so I don't exactly remember.

But I don't know who exactly you're conflating me with here. There are all kinds of legitimate concerns with Chapo. The current anger over the Cosby tweet is in my opinion absolutely justified.

But I do not want to operate on this level where these lines are constantly being drawn and people excommunicated. I don't satisfactorily denounce people in this thread and now I'm one of the bad ones. Chapo fans on twitter are reactionary shits and somehow the podcast itself is implicated.

"Lie down with racist dogs, get up with racist fleas" probably feels good to say but what does it mean in practice? Am I as a poc not allowed to enjoy this show because other poc and white people think it's racist?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
(10-12-2017, 11:23 PM)
The Technomancer's Avatar
Here's what I find a good articulation of why the Cosby joke reflects a deeper structural problem with their approach:


Like, this is a perfect example. "Obviously they weren't making fun of victims of sexual assault guys"
Last edited by The Technomancer; 10-12-2017 at 11:26 PM.
mlclmtckr
Member
(10-12-2017, 11:24 PM)
mlclmtckr's Avatar

Originally Posted by The Technomancer

Which sort of brings us back to the "autistic" thing, because those are the jokes that seem the least "hurr I'm pretending to be a dipshit conservative" and more just...like actual jokes, that reflect an actual perspective

The two hosts who started those running jokes have referred to being autistic themselves.

I mean you could pick out some quotes that seem to imply the hosts' "actual perspective" is that phenology is real.
pigeon
fuck yo restraining order
(10-12-2017, 11:26 PM)
pigeon's Avatar

Originally Posted by mlclmtckr

The two hosts who started those running jokes have referred to being autistic themselves.

That is WORSE not better
Lime
Member
(10-12-2017, 11:29 PM)
Lime's Avatar

Originally Posted by kadotsu

I have no delusions about what they are. It is just me expressing my sadness that the only semi-popular voice for a 18-25 audience that promotes capitalism critique is such a deeply flawed (to the point of uselessness) one. I'm especially sad that they almost completely displace racism as just another form of capitalistic exploitation when it is clear that those problems are to a certain extent disjunct.

Originally Posted by The Technomancer

You and I are basically in the same boat, and I also just can't stand listening to these guys and don't like the effect I perceive them having

Like, fuck, can't we have something better?

Youíre not looking the right places or following the right people:

Delete your account
Revolutionary Left Radio
Imagine otherwise
new dawn
Lit Review podcast
Novara media (hit n miss, disliked them after their Nagle bullshit)
aeolist
Member
(10-12-2017, 11:29 PM)
aeolist's Avatar

Originally Posted by The Technomancer

Here's what I find a good articulation of why the Cosby joke reflects a deeper structural problem with their approach:



Like, this is a perfect example. "Obviously they weren't making fun of victims of sexual assault guys"

i mean, i fully believe that this wasn't their intent, but intent doesn't get you anything and the joke itself was bad for all of those reasons

hopefully the fact that they didn't actually mean it that way leads to some introspection
mlclmtckr
Member
(10-12-2017, 11:31 PM)
mlclmtckr's Avatar

Originally Posted by The Technomancer

Here's what I find a good articulation of why the Cosby joke reflects a deeper structural problem with their approach:

I thought the joke was that people defending confederate statues are as out of touch and evil as people who would defend the Cosby star. That the people who would stand up for a statue of Robert E Lee amid the current controversy are functionally the same as people who would defend Cosby amid the recent news about Weinstein.

Just to be clear I'm not defending the joke at all but I really don't see this reading of it
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
(10-12-2017, 11:32 PM)
The Technomancer's Avatar

Originally Posted by aeolist

i mean, i fully believe that this wasn't their intent, but intent doesn't get you anything and the joke itself was bad for all of those reasons

hopefully the fact that they didn't actually mean it that way leads to some introspection

Right, exactly, they didn't intend to but they also clearly didn't understand, and I dunno, it seems like they're not particularly interested in gaining understanding. I hope I'm wrong

Originally Posted by mlclmtckr

I thought the joke was that people defending confederate statues are as out of touch and evil as people who would defend the Cosby star. That the people who would stand up for a statue of Robert E Lee amid the current controversy are functionally the same as people who would defend Cosby amid the recent news about Weinstein.

Just to be clear I'm not defending the joke at all but I really don't see this reading of it

I actually find the joke a bit incoherent so I'm not sure what its original intent was, but the explanation they've put out was that it was pointing out the hypocrisy of Hollywood turning on Weinstein despite...still having a Cosby Star on the walk of fame. Even though...Cosby has also been...rejected by the entire industry?
mlclmtckr
Member
(10-12-2017, 11:33 PM)
mlclmtckr's Avatar

Originally Posted by pigeon

That is WORSE not better

So just so we're clear you don't think that people with autism should make jokes about autism
mlclmtckr
Member
(10-12-2017, 11:35 PM)
mlclmtckr's Avatar

Originally Posted by The Technomancer

I actually find the joke a bit incoherent so I'm not sure what its original intent was, but the explanation they've put out was that it was pointing out the hypocrisy of Hollywood turning on Weinstein despite...still having a Cosby Star on the walk of fame. Even though...Cosby has also been...rejected by the entire industry?

Oh yeah that makes it even worse. Fuck, that's stupid
kadotsu
Member
(10-12-2017, 11:35 PM)
kadotsu's Avatar
When I think about the morality of insulting an opponent through satire I always go back to the Steward Lee Top Gear bit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7CnMQ4L9Pc&t=8m34s

The whole thing is worth watching but the part I highlighted is the core of what I see as the problem with using the ownage based poster jargon. There are a trillion good satiric punchlines to deal with the dreck of the right. Don't use the few that have real suffering behind it (like autism) just because it is a part of the ownage vernacular.

Originally Posted by Lime

Youíre not looking the right places or following the right people:

Delete your account
Revolutionary Left Radio
Imagine otherwise
new dawn
Lit Review podcast
Novara media (hit n miss, disliked them after their Nagle bullshit)

I was talking popularity. I do thank you for the recommendations.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
(10-12-2017, 11:36 PM)
The Technomancer's Avatar

Originally Posted by mlclmtckr

Oh yeah that makes it even worse. Fuck, that's stupid

Like I'll fully admit that this is abnormally dumb. This is its own special brand of stupid. I just think that its also, eh, characteristic of a lot of what's earned them criticism
Hierophant
Member
(10-12-2017, 11:36 PM)
Hierophant's Avatar

Originally Posted by The Technomancer

I actually find the joke a bit incoherent so I'm not sure what its original intent was, but the explanation they've put out was that it was pointing out the hypocrisy of Hollywood turning on Weinstein despite...still having a Cosby Star on the walk of fame. Even though...Cosby has also been...rejected by the entire industry?

actually i'm quite surprised they haven't taken his star off or someone hasn't scratched it off, at least a symbolic gesture because i thought it'd get at least as much harassment as the trump one did
Father_Brain
Samus made me a Widower :(
(10-12-2017, 11:41 PM)
Father_Brain's Avatar

Originally Posted by pigeon

Iím really disappointed to see this post. Last time we talked about this you said that youíd never encountered any non-intersectional people in the left and you didnít really think they were a meaningful contingent. I believed you! But here you are, in a thread literally full of people arguing that intersectional concerns are unimportant, and youíre posting that actually theyíre fine and thereís no problem.

Not gonna lie, thatís really a bummer.

I agree with you that class-first leftism is real, that it's bad and bad for the left, and that it should be called out.

I also think your definition of class-first leftism is so broad and amorphous as to be levied against basically anyone you disagree with on a matter of intra-party politics, and thus worthless for any actual analysis of it as a real-world problem. Substance-less accusations like the bolded just reinforce that.
badcrumble
Member
(10-12-2017, 11:41 PM)
badcrumble's Avatar
Honestly, this feels like a reckoning thatís been on its way since they gave Angela Nagleís reactionary ideas a platform.
HillGAF donít quote me you suck even more. When people can correctly explain why e.g. linguistics-forward politics are a strategic dead end, just trimming the branches of the evil tree instead of pulling it out by the roots et cetera, but canít explain why or how those tendencies arose or were popularized in the first place, and especially when they primarily seem to be seeking freedom from social censure, I reserve the right to be deeply suspicious about whether they actually give a shit about liberation for any of the groups they say are doing it wrong, and to be skeptical about the motives behind their participation in the left in general. HillGAF donít quote me you suck even more. Sometimes you can see the reactionary turn coming long before it happens. HillGAF donít quote me you suck even more. The organs of critique often end up not being the best organs for actual movement-building or for crafting good standalone political theory.

Originally Posted by Father_Brain

I agree with you that class-first leftism is real, that it's bad and bad for the left, and that it should be called out.

I also think your definition of class-first leftism is so broad and amorphous as to be levied against basically anyone you disagree with on a matter of intra-party politics, and thus worthless for any actual analysis of it as a real-world problem. Substance-less accusations like the bolded just reinforce that.

Yep. Neither class-only leftism nor never-discuss-class* centrism, please.

*talking about the middle class a lot really, really counts as not discussing class lol
Aquavelvaman
Member
(10-12-2017, 11:42 PM)
Aquavelvaman's Avatar
Where can you find the statement that they made about the joke? About it being about Weinstein? That explanation doesn't make any sense to me so I gotta wonder what they were thinking. I thought it was about people defending statues of confederate monsters, too.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
(10-12-2017, 11:43 PM)
The Technomancer's Avatar

Originally Posted by Aquavelvaman

Where can you find the statement that they made about the joke? About it being about Weinstein? That explanation doesn't make any sense to me so I gotta wonder what they were thinking. I thought it was about people defending statues of confederate monsters, too.

I saw someone quote it, digging for the source
Last edited by The Technomancer; 10-12-2017 at 11:47 PM.
badcrumble
Member
(10-12-2017, 11:44 PM)
badcrumble's Avatar
The LA DSA dude who posted this needs to follow Fetonte out the back door, IMO.
PBY
(10-12-2017, 11:45 PM)
PBY's Avatar

Originally Posted by badcrumble

Honestly, this feels like a reckoning thatís been on its way since they gave Angela Nagleís reactionary ideas a platform.
HillGAF donít quote me you suck even more. When people can correctly explain why e.g. linguistics-forward politics are a strategic dead end, just trimming the branches of the evil tree instead of pulling it out by the roots et cetera, but canít explain why or how those tendencies arose or were popularized in the first place, and especially when they primarily seem to be seeking freedom from social censure, I reserve the right to be deeply suspicious about whether they actually give a shit about liberation for any of the groups they say are doing it wrong, and to be skeptical about the motives behind their participation in the left in general. HillGAF donít quote me you suck even more. Sometimes you can see the reactionary turn coming long before it happens. HillGAF donít quote me you suck even more. The organs of critique often end up not being the best organs for actual movement-building or for crafting good standalone political theory.

Yep. Neither class-only leftism nor never-discuss-class* centrism, please.

*talking about the middle class a lot really, really counts as not discussing class lol

But actual leftists and DSA members feel like they don't have a safe space and feel unwelcomed so what do you do with that?
Father_Brain
Samus made me a Widower :(
(10-12-2017, 11:45 PM)
Father_Brain's Avatar
i stupidly bought Nagle's book because she was on Chapo and other lefty podcasts I listen to and I thought she had some interesting ideas. it is bad enough that I couldn't even get to the really problematic parts about tumblr and such.
badcrumble
Member
(10-12-2017, 11:47 PM)
badcrumble's Avatar

Originally Posted by PBY

But actual leftists and DSA members feel like they don't have a safe space and feel unwelcomed so what do you do with that?

This is something the DSA is absolutely in the midst of struggling with (see: Fetonte, other Harringtonites) and itís not a process thatís finished by a long shot. I hope this sorry-ass episode provides the impetus to push things further in a good direction and to understand that the work of making women, minorities, queers, and the disabled feel safe in the DSA is faaaaaar from over.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
(10-12-2017, 11:47 PM)
The Technomancer's Avatar

And yes, people should be able to apologize and learn from their mistakes. But they also have to be better. This is another chance for people to watch and see if other people actually become better
pigeon
fuck yo restraining order
(10-12-2017, 11:59 PM)
pigeon's Avatar

Originally Posted by Hierophant

not a single way you can convince me that any member of chapo actually wants jared fogle to go free or gulen to burn, or to use the bad joke spouted today, bill cosbys star to stay forever

chapo do make shitty jokes they shouldn't make sometimes and i can totally understand the dislike of it, this is peak irony poisoning and in poor taste and probably shouldn't have left the twitter submit box

ok we gucci

Originally Posted by mlclmtckr

But I do not want to operate on this level where these lines are constantly being drawn and people excommunicated. I don't satisfactorily denounce people in this thread and now I'm one of the bad ones. Chapo fans on twitter are reactionary shits and somehow the podcast itself is implicated.

I dunno, I feel like I see variations on this basic theme get posted all the time and ultimately they all boil down to the same thing: "I like this thing, I don't want to stop liking it, you're saying it's problematic and that makes me feel guilty for liking it, so stop making me feel guilty."

I don't really care what media you consume. I think this show is problematic. I consume all kinds of problematic media myself! But you need to be cognizant of the ways in which it's problematic, because otherwise it's going to shape your perceptions. This is especially true when we're talking about a political podcast, whose explicit goal is to shape perceptions and drive policy.

Do you feel super confident that politicians inspired by Chapo Trap House, or by their fans, are going to enact intersectional solutions that are going to be good for everybody? If not, maybe that's...a problem that needs consideration? If a bunch of the defenses of Chapo in this thread are people explicitly denying any responsibility for what they say in their "jokes," and the Reddit discussion is full of people earnestly making the argument that "incivility" is fine, doesn't that represent a problem with the leftist culture that's being spawned and driven by this show?

If not, what exactly are you planning to do about it, other than post in this thread saying actually it's all fine?

Originally Posted by mlclmtckr

"Lie down with racist dogs, get up with racist fleas" probably feels good to say but what does it mean in practice? Am I as a poc not allowed to enjoy this show because other poc and white people think it's racist?

You can enjoy whatever the fuck you want, man, but if you're here posting about how unreasonable it is to criticize leftists who think misogynistic jokes are hilarious, people might have takeaways from that, and can you really blame them?
Aquavelvaman
Member
(10-13-2017, 12:01 AM)
Aquavelvaman's Avatar

Originally Posted by The Technomancer

And yes, people should be able to apologize and learn from their mistakes. But they also have to be better. This is another chance for people to watch and see if other people actually become better

Huh, yeah they really fucked that up. Man, I don't want Chapo to go to shit over low-effort irony poison.

As long as we're criticizing Chapo, one thing I've never seen mentioned is about the many times Felix has bragged about picking up women (fans) on twitter. It could be all on the level, but the chance of it later coming out to be a Nick Robinson kind of thing seems high. Maybe it was just jokes, but it didn't seem like it was.
pigeon
fuck yo restraining order
(10-13-2017, 12:02 AM)
pigeon's Avatar

Originally Posted by Father_Brain

I agree with you that class-first leftism is real, that it's bad and bad for the left, and that it should be called out.

I also think your definition of class-first leftism is so broad and amorphous as to be levied against basically anyone you disagree with on a matter of intra-party politics, and thus worthless for any actual analysis of it as a real-world problem. Substance-less accusations like the bolded just reinforce that.

People are arguing in this thread that using autistic as a slur is fine because it's just a joke. That is bad! That does not seem that complicated to me, it seems quite clear and narrowly framed. Why do you consider that "so broad and amorphous?" It strikes me as an airy way of saying you think some of the people I think are bad are actually fine and that I'm being disingenuous.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
(10-13-2017, 12:09 AM)
The Technomancer's Avatar
Noah elaborates on his thoughts here: https://www.patreon.com/posts/14839774

The joke failed miserably, as Androsky acknowledged. I don't think it was just an accident, though. You don't fuck up this thoroughly by chance. Or to put it another way, what on earth made these folks think that the best response to the Harvey Weinstein scandal was sneering at "liberals" while joking about Bill Cosby?

The answer is that Chapo's default response to discussions of sexism is to look for hypocrisy. In dirtbag left analysis, "feminism" is generally seen, not as a good in itself, but as a bad-faith "liberal" distraction from real issues of class oppression. In addition, the dirtbag left is knee-jerk anti-Hollywood. They see all Hollywood performers as out-of-touch elites, who only talk about racism and sexism in order to show their own virtue.

The Harvey Weinstein revelations demonstrate that people who work in Hollywood can in fact be oppressed and suffer workplace harassment, exploitation,and sexism. That's not a message the dirtbag left has been especially interested in hearing. So, these guys deflected. Instead of trying to show solidarity with the women who were abused, they did their usual riff on "Hollywood elites are hypocrites, hah hah."

In this case, though, the most important people speaking against Weinstein were his victims. Smearing those who care about sexual assault as "libs" comes off as callously insulting people who were abused. The frame "libs" vs. "true leftists" doesn't work especially well when the relevant dichotomy here is "men in power" (like Weinstein, Ben Affleck, and Cosby) and "women (and sometimes men) with less power."

I won't go so far as to agree with "the dirtbag left automatically treats discussions of feminism as disingenuous distractions", I think he's being selective with some negative examples to draw from, but I do think he's absolutely right that the problem here was that their instinctual reaction was how to frame the Weinstein stuff in terms of their war between "liberals" and "the true left". And that sort of goes back to what Finale Fireworker was saying on the last page: this whole thing feels intensely tribal, in a way that leads to mistakes like this.
BUNTING1243
Member
(10-13-2017, 12:14 AM)
BUNTING1243's Avatar

Originally Posted by pigeon

That is WORSE not better

Iím honestly super curious why you think that makes it worse.
pigeon
fuck yo restraining order
(10-13-2017, 12:24 AM)
pigeon's Avatar

Originally Posted by BUNTING1243

I’m honestly super curious why you think that makes it worse.

I mean, mostly because it doesn't really sound like they're actually autistic, it sounds like they say "oh I'm autistic" about themselves. Autism is not like gluten sensitivity. People actually get diagnosed with autism, it's a disability for which you're guaranteed aid by the state, etc. I don't think it particularly makes things better if you're like "oh well I joke about autism but it's because I'm like totally autistic." I can find no evidence of them actually being autistic or talking seriously about having autism online.

If they are actually diagnosed autistic it doesn't make it worse. It still doesn't actually make it better that they use "autistic" as a slur, though, that remains bad either way.
Father_Brain
Samus made me a Widower :(
(10-13-2017, 12:26 AM)
Father_Brain's Avatar

Originally Posted by The Technomancer

Noah elaborates on his thoughts here: https://www.patreon.com/posts/14839774



I won't go so far as to agree with "the dirtbag left automatically treats discussions of feminism as disingenuous distractions", I think he's being selective with some negative examples to draw from, but I do think he's absolutely right that the problem here was that their instinctual reaction was how to frame the Weinstein stuff in terms of their war between "liberals" and "the true left". And that sort of goes back to what Finale Fireworker was saying on the last page: this whole thing feels intensely tribal, in a way that leads to mistakes like this.

tbh, I think it may have also just been along the lines of the occasional jokes about Chapo as a "racism factory" - "the shitlibs will call us racist/misogynistic no matter what, might as well ironically 'own' that." Which I guess is worse.
mlclmtckr
Member
(10-13-2017, 12:35 AM)
mlclmtckr's Avatar

Originally Posted by pigeon

I mean, mostly because it doesn't really sound like they're actually autistic, it sounds like they say "oh I'm autistic" about themselves. Autism is not like gluten sensitivity. People actually get diagnosed with autism, it's a disability for which you're guaranteed aid by the state, etc. I don't think it particularly makes things better if you're like "oh well I joke about autism but it's because I'm like totally autistic." I can find no evidence of them actually being autistic or talking seriously about having autism online.

If they are actually diagnosed autistic it doesn't make it worse. It still doesn't actually make it better that they use "autistic" as a slur, though, that remains bad either way.

Me, an idiot: I have listened to these two dudes for over a hundred hours and heard them talk about autism affecting their lives and outlooks, I am going to believe that they are autistic

You, a genius: I googled "Virgil Texas childhood medical records" and couldn't find an official diagnosis of autism signed by a doctor so I will continue to call him ableist
Father_Brain
Samus made me a Widower :(
(10-13-2017, 12:44 AM)
Father_Brain's Avatar

Originally Posted by pigeon

People are arguing in this thread that using autistic as a slur is fine because it's just a joke. That is bad! That does not seem that complicated to me, it seems quite clear and narrowly framed. Why do you consider that "so broad and amorphous?" It strikes me as an airy way of saying you think some of the people I think are bad are actually fine and that I'm being disingenuous.

Dude, I've literally seen you argue that anyone who wasn't enthusiastic about voting for HRC must have been insufficiently concerned with racism. You can claim you meant something much narrower than what you actually said, i don't really care.
PBY
(10-13-2017, 12:47 AM)
PBY's Avatar

Originally Posted by mlclmtckr

Me, an idiot: I have listened to these two dudes for over a hundred hours and heard them talk about autism affecting their lives and outlooks, I am going to believe that they are autistic

You, a genius: I googled "Virgil Texas childhood medical records" and couldn't find an official diagnosis of autism signed by a doctor so I will continue to call him ableist

Ehh also not fair

I'm a weekly listener, and I don't think its exaaaactly as clear cut. Their association with Cum Town (which makes that joke a super-regular trope) doesn't help.
pigeon
fuck yo restraining order
(10-13-2017, 12:47 AM)
pigeon's Avatar

Originally Posted by mlclmtckr

Me, an idiot: I have listened to these two dudes for over a hundred hours and heard them talk about autism affecting their lives and outlooks, I am going to believe that they are autistic

You, a genius: I googled "Virgil Texas childhood medical records" and couldn't find an official diagnosis of autism signed by a doctor so I will continue to call him ableist

Fair enough. I'll believe they're really autistic, I don't listen to the show. It's still obviously unacceptable to use "autistic" as a slur.
pigeon
fuck yo restraining order
(10-13-2017, 12:54 AM)
pigeon's Avatar

Originally Posted by Father_Brain

Dude, I've literally seen you argue that anyone who wasn't enthusiastic about voting for HRC must have been insufficiently concerned with racism.

I actually don't recall ever arguing that people had to be enthusiastic about voting for Hillary. If so, I'm happy to retract that. They certainly should have done it to avoid the whole incompetent white supremacist thing, though.
sphagnum
Member
(10-13-2017, 01:02 AM)
sphagnum's Avatar
Its times like this Im glad I dont listen to podcasts.
PBY
(10-13-2017, 01:03 AM)
PBY's Avatar

Originally Posted by sphagnum

Its times like this Im glad I dont listen to podcasts.

Podcasts aren't the problem, but they do elevate ideas beyond their nature into the personalities that deliver them. The right has had this issue with talk radio for a minute.
travisbickle
(10-13-2017, 01:22 AM)
travisbickle's Avatar

Originally Posted by sphagnum

Its times like this Im glad I dont listen to podcasts.


RHLSTP ... RHLSTP is good.
Curious Puppy
Junior Member
(10-13-2017, 02:08 AM)
Curious Puppy's Avatar

Originally Posted by The Technomancer

I actually find the joke a bit incoherent so I'm not sure what its original intent was, but the explanation they've put out was that it was pointing out the hypocrisy of Hollywood turning on Weinstein despite...still having a Cosby Star on the walk of fame. Even though...Cosby has also been...rejected by the entire industry?

Chapo Trap House has been telling their fans to their face the kind of people they are for quite a while now, and yet we still have people in this thread telling us not to believe our own lying eyes. It's the same routine with every popular YouTuber or Pod with a reputation for saying stupid shit, they have a deluded core fanbase that sticks by them no matter what and spins blatantly dumb shit in ways that let them try and dodge accountability. "It's just a joke bro", or "Hey that's not who they are", and "Well I'm personally not offended by it". Make a bingo card.
Last edited by Curious Puppy; 10-13-2017 at 02:10 AM.
Father_Brain
Samus made me a Widower :(
(10-13-2017, 02:08 AM)
Father_Brain's Avatar
Discourse Collective, Citations Needed, Intercepted, and Delete Your Account are good. Katie Halper can be good when she isn't overly focused on relitigating the 2016 primary, which is not enough of the time, unfortunately.

Austin Walker should really do a leftist podcast.
Sou Da
Member
(10-13-2017, 02:09 AM)
Sou Da's Avatar

Originally Posted by Father_Brain


Austin Walker should really do a leftist podcast.

Some critics would call that Waypoint Radio.
Massive Duck, C.M.
Member
(10-13-2017, 02:19 AM)
Massive Duck, C.M.'s Avatar

Originally Posted by Father_Brain

Discourse Collective, Citations Needed, Intercepted, and Delete Your Account are good. Katie Halper can be good when she isn't overly focused on relitigating the 2016 primary, which is not enough of the time, unfortunately.

Austin Walker should really do a leftist podcast.

I donít see Waypoint Radio appealing to the same demo

Thread Tools