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The argument that sex, (in most cases sexism) sells games is inherently flawed

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
The Point:
I only ever see "sex sells" used in defense of stuff like characters with appearances that make no sense in the context they're in outside of sex appeal. The only reason to use that justification (beyond a bypass of any actual discussion) is if the person genuinely believes that that character design is making a very notable difference to sales beyond a couple of % either way.

Again, if that isn't what people who spam "sex sells" to any analysis or criticism of certain designs mean, then it's a literally meaningless thing to say, or an intentional attempt to derail. I mean, even shitty things frequently sell on the basis of morbid curiosity of just how shitty they are.

The OP
Often times during equality discussions a common rhetoric among the gaming community is a well worn and frankly outdated phrase that doesn't quite make sense in the current climate of video games, and that phrase is that "sex sells."

This is inherently a self defeatist mindset not only meant to stifle discussion of equality and criticism of developers who put problematic elements in their games, but also problematic in how poorly sex is actually represented in this medium compared to sexualization, objectification, two things that at best, boil down to sexism and in the worst cases, boil down to misogyny. See the following:

ba741e258f6f.jpg

hqdefault.jpg

Final-Fantasy-XV-Cidney.jpg

The core issue with the argument that "sex," which to reiterate, is out of place sexism, is that many times characters like the above, their designs, and what they're doing has very little to do with actual sex and typically, like most sexualization in gaming, these characters are really obvious examples of sexism in a medium that has tons of issues with representation for anyone that isn't straight, white, and male.

Even if for a second we start to believe that notion that a sexualized female character design that sticks out from the main cast, (despite compelling evidence to thecontrary that people might actually like nuanced portrayals of women in games instead of objects), will help sell a game, that still doesn't mean that

a)devs can't do better for representation and are incapable of appealing to straight male gamers
b)that we should just accept objectification as something that shouldn't be questioned because "that's just the way it is." and that devs should never be criticised ever for appealing to a perceived audience of straight men at the expense of women who might otherwise, be invested in the project.

So why this argument pops up over and over, is beyond me, as it's part of why the discussion of representation is not where it should be. As myself and others feel that we constantly have to go over basic feminism 101 principles to even get into the nitty gritty of why things are the way they are.

While we're here, I actually wanna address this notion. There's this thing called heroic idealism, in the context of video games characters are rarely fully unattractive, but rather they're ideals, characters are typically in shape, have great figures, and accomplish amazing feats. The character in a game is typically meant to be a self insert for a player. In this sense the player is meant to want to be Nathan Drake, thus he's not ugly, on the same cloth, he's not sexualized either as that would likely interfere with the self insertion. As we know, game devs go to absurd lengths to desexualize male characters in games.

For women, I imagine this is what the equivalent of male character heroic idealism looks like:

This characters are all attractive in their own right, but they aren't sexualized to any degree, and thus, aren't off-putting for the audience. That's the difference between actual sexualization and just being an attractive individual.
 

Chindogg

Member
Not really. There is very little evidence that FFXV moved more copies because Cindy is dressed in that ridiculous getup.

I'd argue that Fire Emblem was basically resurrected because of waifus though.

It's not an end all solution, but it happens in instances.
 

Betty

Banned
The controversies around Quiet and Cindy were pretty much free publicity for the games though.

So in a way sex did help sell those games, with a little hep from offended news outlets.
 
It's not that it gets people to run out and buy the games, it's that it gets people to suddenly pay attention to a product they otherwise wouldn't have noticed. I'm pretty sure nearly everybody of either gender can vouch for this being a thing.

Whether the sexy person in question has to be dressed like Quiet to qualify as sexy is a different issue entirely. Although Quiet definitely got MGS5 some free publicity, so . . .
 
Hard to control for variables in practical metrics, but I'd venture Senran Kagura without it's main selling point wouldn't fare quite as well.

Also the ability to fuck Garrus was an incalculable boon to ME3.
 

JordanN

Banned
It's a case of both.

You don't think marketing execs aren't pushing for these character designs as a means of merchandising them further (i.e dlc, outfits, toys etc)?

Artists who make art on their own time however, aren't influenced by these forces unless they are seeking money (i.e patreon).
 

Two Words

Member
"Sex sells" isn't just about overtly sexualized characters. Pretty much all games have characters that are made to appear attractive. It's not that they make characters sexualized because sex sells. You rarely see ugly characters because sex sells. There's a reason why characters like Laura Croft and Nathan Drake look the way they do. It's because sex sells. And selling with sex appeal isn't just literally selling sex.
 
I imagine sex sells in games like Mass Effect, Persona, and Fire Emblem with the relationship aspect being a major part. On the other hand, the character models are pretty unappealing for basically everyone in ME:A so it's having the opposite effect.

I guess there's not much definitive data to work on, but I think there's enough there to not throw out the argument completely. Though that's not to say sexist portrayals are ok
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Not really. There is very little evidence that FFXV moved more copies because Cindy is dressed in that ridiculous getup.
This, there's very little concrete evidence that out of place sexualization will help the sales of a game, especially considering the backlash and criticism that various triple A games get for including those problematic elements. Which is why I propose that games sell IN SPITE OF these elements, not because of them. Even more so as more and more gamers have alternatives and games that exclude that entirely.
 

depths20XX

Member
I still feel that your understanding of the term "sex sells" isn't correct.

"Sex in advertising is the use of sex appeal in advertising to help sell a particular product or service. Sexually appealing imagery may or may not pertain to the product or service in question. Examples of sexually appealing imagery include nudity, pin-up models, and muscular men."

It's a term, based on something that is used by marketing in reality.

You're in some weird place where you're trying to argue against the harmful effect of pop up ads or something.

"Sex sells", is a reality.
 

nekkid

It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
The controversies around Quiet and Cindy were pretty much free publicity for the games though.

So in a way sex did help sell those games, with a little hep from offended news outlets.

Complaining about "sex sells" sells.
 
And before anyone mentions hentai games, I feel a distinction should be made between "sex sells products" and "sex sells AS a product".

Tits in a standard RPG don't necessarily sell the RPG but tits in a hentai visual novel are obviously the whole point.

I have argued against this too and I don't think there's any statistics that prove that sex helps in selling a product that is not inherently about that.
 

Cerium

Member
I'd argue that Fire Emblem was basically resurrected because of waifus though.

It's not an end all solution, but it happens in instances.
I didn't know people actually took that meme seriously.

Fire Emblem Awakening sold well because it improved the presentation, shook up the artstyle, had a great and memorable cast of characters, introduced quality of life features for people who are not good at videogames, and added interesting mechanics to the gameplay as well as a customizable avatar. It also received more marketing than any other entry in recent memory.

This is the main heroine and BY FAR the most popular character from the game.

tumblr_inline_mnnlbmMaEd1qz4rgp.png


No part of that design is sexualized.
 

Kazuo Hirai

I really want everyone to know how much more Titanfall 2 sold than Nioh. It was a staggering amount.
You know that some "Japanese Games" on Steam really sold well because...
 
Attractiveness sells. "Sex" is some kind of attractiveness.


So yeah the phrase is still true.
Proof for that? Ask yourself. You don't want something you're not attracted to in whatever way. Sex is just one possible way.


Overuse of oversexualization and overestimating of "Sex sells" is a different topic and for that OP is correct
 

Mesoian

Member
Not really. There is very little evidence that FFXV moved more copies because Cindy is dressed in that ridiculous getup.

While true, Cindy's involvement in the prerelease marketing is fairly similar, if not identical, than the plotting of most current day alcohol ads in japan. I'm not going to say that had she been excluded from the marketing or the game itself, it would have sold better or worse, we have no way of knowing if that's true. But I will say that Square was emulating other successful marketing campaigns that rely on titillation.

In gaming, the concept of sex selling usually doesn't mean very much because the people designing the characters in question usually have very little to nothing to do with the actual marketing of the game. Bayonetta looked like Bayonetta years before a marketing team was called, same with the mortal kombat girls, same with Quiet, same with the characters in a George Kamitami game.

The question is, does putting those designs at the forefront make a game sell better? And the answer is, we honestly don't know because not enough games do that for us to come to any sort of meaningful conclusion, at least as far as the states are concerned.

For the most part, Marketing remains aimed at the male demographic ages 12-30 because it's the safest and easiest way to market video games. And it's a lot easier to do that with traditional machoism than it is with titilation. Beer ads have been swinging that way for the better part of a decade now, at least as far as the states are concerned, and as they are non offensive, safe, no one complains, wares get sold, and much less money has to be spent.

Attractiveness sells. "Sex" is some kind of attractiveness.


So yeah the phrase is still true.
Proof for that? Ask yourself. You don't want something you're not attracted to in whatever way. Sex is just one possible way.

People don't know what they want. This ad killed. Most people, when asked, can't even give a reason why they liked it.

At the end of the day, as far as marketing is concerned, most people are fine with anything, and as long as there's some small amount of recall, brand owners don't care.

This is the main heroine and BY FAR the most popular character from the game.

Lucina_official_art.png


No part of that design is sexualized.

But is that because she's a cool character, or is it because she's just "Girl Marth"?
 

Dio

Banned
Here's something I want to clarify.

It seems like a lot of people think that if you set the camera to sell the sexuality, and dress a character sexily, that's objectification because the fictional character didn't get a choice when positioning the character or choosing their clothes.

How do I create an extremely sexual and sexy character without them being 'objectified'?
 

duckroll

Member
Sexy shit doesn't sell in a vacuum, but aesthetics that result in sexy shit does have an impact on perception and appeal. Take Metal Gear for example. It's very much macho military scifi design. The artists who design stuff like that well are more likely to be inclined to design female characters with a more exaggerated male gaze. Does the sexy chick add more sales on her own? Hard to tell, probably not significantly. Does the overall tone of the game communicate a strong style which audiences have been programmed to think is badass and cool? Absolutely. I don't think sitting on a philosophical tower debating things like this in isolation has any real value.
 

SalvaPot

Member
I believe Sex Appeal sells games, yes, but is also important that said appeal is not off-putting. Compare Bayonetta and Nier:Automata walking animations and they are very similar but in Bayonetta can come off as weird and over the top while in Nier it seems more tasteful.

My GF has seen both (She likes to look over my shoulder when browsing GAF) and she couldn't take Bayo seriously (She did like the game when we played it together), while when he saw the Nier gif she really liked the style and even looked into cosplay potential and is looking into getting the game for herself later on. And in my mind both could be considered a "Sex Sells" moment since they are portraying a woman in a sexy situation.

Then you go into what appeals to who and then its a matter of what type of sells appeal to what type of costumer, and then we have niches like the senran kagura games, or the otome games with pretty boys.
 

Madness

Member
Not really. There is very little evidence that FFXV moved more copies because Cindy is dressed in that ridiculous getup.

That is anecdotal. Yeah maybe that example didn't sell, but James Cameron had a great point when he was making Avatar. He said he purposely got Zoe Saldana to be the Na'vi lead because he wanted people to believe that the main character could fall in love with her. To make her a waifu sort of. It creates greater emotional feelings to have a gf/sidekick character that is attractive or brings up sexual feelings. Look at Cortana in H5, I didn't care for the look but so many said they never felt closer to Cortana. My marketing class from years ago now is outdated, but we had empirical evidence that sex, attraction, catering to certain human emotions sells. This doesn't mean you have characters ridiculously busty or weird proportions, but you will see good looking or sexualized portrayals.
 
I'd argue that Fire Emblem was basically resurrected because of waifus though.

It's not an end all solution, but it happens in instances.
I've had this argument on GAF so many times, but as a huge Fire Emblem fan I'll try to explain why this is not the case.

1. Fire Emblem has always had 'waifus'. Seriously, thus aspect of the fanbase has existed since the games first came out in the west. It's nothing new. It did not save the franchise.

2. The franchise was resurrected almost entirely due to QoL and accessibility changes, like Casual Mode, Pair Up, utilization of the bottom screen for stats, ease of support acquisition, etc. They made the games a lot easier to understand at a glance and less obtuse with Awakening, as well as providing options to lower the difficulty, and it brought people in.

Did Kozaki's modern anime style art help? Sure. Did the My Unit's ability to marry any unit get people talking? Yes. But that is not what made the games popular again. Echoes is great proof of this. They removed marriage and children, they are having Hidari do the art (beautiful but more restrained/conservative like pre-Awakening FE), they removed My Unit. But what did they keep? Casual mode and QoL features. Because that's what made Fire Emblem sell.
 

GLAMr

Member
Cindy is one of the (many) reasons I refuse to buy FFXV.

I think sex sells to a particular type of person. My awkward 15 year old virgin self lapped up DoA. Now I find it off-puting.

Edit: Messy plurals...
 
Has the opposite effect on me. I don't buy DOA anymore. Things like lollipop chainsaw got a skip from me as well. I immediately put clothes on the girl in mgsv too. Maybe I'm a prude.
 

Joeku

Member
Not always, but it does.

- Dead or Alive series
- Senran Kagura

In these cases it feels like sex sells because they're specifically selling sexiness, and that's totally fine. It's the sexing up of things that are thematically and narratively non-sexy that feels cheap.
 
This, there's very little concrete evidence that out of place sexualization will help the sales of a game, especially considering the backlash and criticism that various triple A games get for including those problematic elements. Which is why I propose that games sell IN SPITE OF these elements, not because of them. Even more so as more and more gamers have alternatives and games that exclude that entirely.

you're ignoring the part that the main cast of FFXV are all very handsome men and pretty boys. That involves sex as well.
 
Hmm, I'm curious as to how NieR: Automata is doing compared to the original. I don't really look into sales or pay them much mind, but in the first game you play as Gary Busey in BDSM barbarian garb. In Automata you play as an android woman whose skirt does not even attempt to try to hiding the wedgie she's sporting between her huge ass. I would not be surprised if the latter has picked up more of a following than the former.

That said, I like sexualized character designs. However, I like sexualized characters of all types so I do agree that the targeting for those characters are way disproportionate to one demographic.
 

tsundoku

Member
Cindy rubs herself all over the Regalia in a scene barely different then the parody in Deadly P.

Mika slaps her ass canonically and shoves her butt at people

and Quiet portrays the best (worst? best? worst?) Japanese homage to the Necessecitated French Director Shower Dcene

Their sexuality is inherent to all of their character designs, and definitely sells copies to some people either through positive or negative press about "Sexy" or "Empowering" or "Misogynist" or "Pornographic/Disgusting" character designs
 

Korigama

Member
And then there's Dead Or Alive, that series has somehow continued despite being an...okayish fighting game at best.
5:LR is certainly more than "okayish" (ditching Itagaki and the sensibilities that he applied in limiting 4 as a viable fighter, in addition to working with AM2 while retooling the gameplay, saw to that). That said, there's no denying that the costume DLC for the game has been a steady source of revenue for Team Ninja.
 
I've bought some games (in part) due to sex, broadly defined.

I have chosen not to buy some games due to sexism.

I wonder if (or to what degree) easy access to free pornography has changed the truth of "Sex sells", if it was true.
 

ckaneo

Member
There is a difference between sex and perversion.

Overly sexed characters can make it embarrassing to buy your games for the general audience. Same way having questionable child like anime women can.

On a side note, the worst part of quiet's design is how "ugly" she looks. Literally one of the least sexy characters that are suppose to look sexy ive ever seen. Should have made a much better looking design if they were gonna embarrass themselves like that
 

kuroshiki

Member
I wouldn't call either of those commercial successes. They have an audience and they get by, but...they're not pulling in Metal Gear numbers.

wait what? what is this even...

They are definitely commercial success. Just because they didn't pull millions doesn't mean they failed.
 
5:LR is certainly more than "okayish" (ditching Itagaki and the sensibilities that he applied to limiting 4 as a competitive fighter, in addition to working with AM2 while retooling the gameplay). That said, there's no denying that the costume DLC for the game has been a steady source of revenue for Team Ninja.

Eh, I personally never liked 3d fighters so that's more my opinion than objective fact. Blazblue/Guilty Gear are more my speed tbh.

Oh man Guilty Gear IS 3d now, isn't it? Well, it's on a 2d plane..
 
Not only is it because she's a cool character, but she's also a lot more popular than Marth, who is not actually a cool or popular character.
Yep, Marth is kind of lame. He sucks in his game and his game is the worst of the franchise released in the west. He's only cool in Smash Bros.
 

Mesoian

Member
Hmm, I'm curious as to how NieR: Automata is doing compared to the original. I don't really look into sales or pay them much mind, but in the first game you play as Gary Busey in BDSM barbarian garb. In Automata you play as an android woman whose skirt does not even attempt to try to hiding the wedgie she's sporting between her huge ass. I would not be surprised if the latter has picked up more of a following than the former.

That said, I like sexualized character designs. However, I like sexualized characters of all types so I do agree that the targeting for those characters are way disproportionate to one demographic.

Keep in mind, in Japan, Nier was a waifish teenage boy slightly older than Yonah. There were two versions of that game at release, one with daddy Nier and one with Teenage Nier, because Japanese marketing was worried that the japanese gaming public would not want to play a game as a less attractive musclebound man.

The argument of, "does sex sell" is something that's still shuffled around the meeting room table, even when it shouldn't be.
 
Hmm, I'm curious as to how NieR: Automata is doing compared to the original. I don't really look into sales or pay them much mind, but in the first game you play as Gary Busey in BDSM barbarian garb. In Automata you play as an android woman whose skirt does not even attempt to try to hiding the wedgie she's sporting between her huge ass. I would not be surprised if the latter has picked up more of a following than the former.

That said, I like sexualized character designs. However, I like sexualized characters of all types so I do agree that the targeting for those characters are way disproportionate to one demographic.

Automata's first week sales in Japan were higher than Nier's lifetime sales there.
 

mokeyjoe

Member
I don't really understand, given that the internet exists and, er, risqué content is hardly difficult to find, who would buy a videogame for the sex?
 
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