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Cracked: 3 Mistakes Women Make When Dealing With Men

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defel

Member
^ That's basically what I've heard.

Looking at it from a biological frame of mind, there isn't any "cost" to a woman if her man is promiscuous and impregnates other women. She's still having her own kid, no matter what, with a guy with great genes/abilities (aside from being a cheater.. which actually in a roundabout way means that he's pretty skillful :p)

But if a woman has sex with another man, her husband might raise that other man's children. The husband might have no children of his own. That's suicide for his genetic line.

What would be costly for a woman is if her man fell in love with another woman, meaning that he might leave her and she'd lose all the economic advantages he provided, and if they had children, no mate to help provide. This explains why woman are more troubled by "emotional cheating", it has a higher cost to women's reproductive potential. While a man is more troubled by "physical cheating", it has a higher cost to a man's reproductive potential. Of course men and women will both feel some betrayal at either form of cheating, but at a primitive emotional level, the physical cheating will bother the man more, and the emotional cheating will bother the woman more.

People are so much more complicated than that in many ways... but it explains where our deep, automatic emotions about relationships often come from.

Great post. Leading on from that the risks women take when they have sex are far greater than that for men. If a man has sex, in the purely animistic world in which we evolved, the father bears absolutely no responsibility for the potential child and pays little to no cost. The female on the other hand risks a pregnancy involving drastic bodily changes, death before or during labour and then 14-18 years of childcare. Its for this reason that the whole "slut" paradigm exists. Its deeply wired into our us.
 

Apath

Member
Great post. Leading on from that the risks women take when they have sex are far greater than that for men. If a man has sex, in the purely animistic world in which we evolved, the father bears absolutely no responsibility for the potential child and pays little to no cost. The female on the other hand risks a pregnancy involving drastic bodily changes, death before or during labour and then 14-18 years of childcare. Its for this reason that the whole "slut" paradigm exists. Its deeply wired into our us.
I feel that's a part of it, but it's definitely not the only reason for it.
 
I don't think men and women are supposed to understand each other.

I went through a single period before my current relationship where I had a lot of women friends. A lot of them would say things like, "you are a great guy but I wouldn't date you," even though I wasn't asking them to be my girlfriend or anything like that. I was just enjoying being single and they just happened to be my friends. Fast forward to now when I find myself in a fairly serious relationship and all of a sudden all these women are coming out of the woodwork telling me they miss me and how they would've dated me if I'd "shown any interest in them." Ain't that some shit? You preemptively cut off any possibility of me being interested in you by telling me you don't like me in that way then you turn it around on me and blame me for not taking the initiative as if I'm supposed to be able to read your mind and automatically know that you mean the exact opposite of the words that are coming out of your mouth.



Have you actually been in a relationship? Because women play hard to get and constantly test you even when they are in a relationship.

Essentially you're more desirable because you've been vetted by one of their kind versus before you might be a nice guy but you weren't properly vetted, this is the same reason why some women would date married men or even divorced men, they got their shot with someone of the female sex before so they couldn't be all bad.
 

Mumei

Member
Just like it's absurd to think that dressing provocatively has no effect on potential sexual assaults, right? If it's a major factor it shouldn't be hard to prove.

No, but it is is absurd to think that dressing provocatively has an effect on whether one is sexually assaulted.

And of course something like this is hard to prove. Can you tell me where we would get the control group for "Women who didn't grow up in a society that shamed and attacked women for pursuing casual sex"?

I don't understand the motivation for skepticism that slut shaming could have something to do with it. I don't understand the rush to embrace biology as the obvious answer, when so much surrounding our attitudes about sex is the result of culture. If I were a straight man, I would think that, well, biology is something that cannot be changed. So if these differences were indeed primarily biological there's very little to do be done about it.

If, however, at least part of the difference might be related to the vastly different ways that women's sexuality and men's sexuality is treated, then that would mean that there is a lot to be done about it. A society in which women's sexuality was as celebrated and validated as men's sexuality (and, yes, in which respect for bodily integrity were more common), that women might actually feel more comfortable pursuing sex without worrying that they would become social pariahs or worry about potentially being victimized.

And even if we pursued such a society, and it turned out that while women did pursue more sex, there was still apparently some biological reason that meant that women generally were less likely to pursue sex, what's the problem? Is it not better that there are more women who feel comfortable expressing their sexuality than before, even if that was still not as common as in men? And would it not be good in itself that a little over half of all people did not have to grow up seeing themselves vilified?

I mean I see the appeal on one level: If you insist that it is biological, you can go into a thread and have a circle-jerk about how it is just biology and lament how awful it is. And then if someone insists that the vastly different cultural treatments of sexuality might also be a pretty major factor (given how societal attitudes are enormously influential on our own implicit attitudes, as anyone who has read about, say, the way that even the person most committed to racial justice is still susceptible to them, it would seem odd to suggest that societal attitudes on sex wouldn't have a similarly powerful effect), you can demand that they provide specific evidence - when you somehow see no need to provide any evidence that it is biological and not the result of culture. But I don't really see the point.
 

Apath

Member
Essentially you're more desirable because you've been vetted by one of their kind versus before you might be a nice guy but you weren't properly vetted, this is the same reason why some women would date married men or even divorced men, they got their shot with someone of the female sex before so they couldn't be all bad.
This isn't exclusive to women though.
 
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...lege-students-respond-being-propositioned-sex

We're done here. In this study, an average looking woman approached men on college campus's and asked them straight-up if they wanted to go back to her place and have sex. 75% of the men said yes. When they reversed it, and an average looking man asked women if they wanted to go back to his place and have sex, none of the women said yes. Not one. If a woman wants to have sex with a man, provided she isn't ugly, she pretty much just has to go up to a stranger, make a few minutes of small talk, and then ask him straight out to have sex.

I've always wondered if anyone did a study like that. Intriguing and also obvious.
 

Derrick01

Banned
So what the hell is negging? Did they mean nagging? Because that's my #1. Can't stand that shit.

edit: Nope they meant negging. Hrm, learn something new every day.
 
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...lege-students-respond-being-propositioned-sex

We're done here. In this study, an average looking woman approached men on college campus's and asked them straight-up if they wanted to go back to her place and have sex. 75% of the men said yes. When they reversed it, and an average looking man asked women if they wanted to go back to his place and have sex, none of the women said yes. Not one. If a woman wants to have sex with a man, provided she isn't ugly, she pretty much just has to go up to a stranger, make a few minutes of small talk, and then ask him straight out to have sex.

no i refuse to believe this men and women will always be equal in my eyes!!!!!
 

marrec

Banned
I may be opening another can, but I do believe that dressing provocatively has an effect on being sexually assaulted.

Dude, why you gotta start this stuff at 1 in the fucking morning? Okay I realize you posted that 2 hours ago, but come on? How am I supposed to take you seriously when you say that with a, presumably, straight face.
 

Satch

Banned
Dude, why you gotta start this stuff at 1 in the fucking morning? Okay I realize you posted that 2 hours ago, but come on? How am I supposed to take you seriously when you say that with a, presumably, straight face.

I actually read it when he posted it, but I decided to play Minecraft instead.
 
Freeze. I should have put this caveat in when I said this, but I don't think that it's a woman's fault if she's sexually assaulted, ever.

Ever.

Just like it's not a person's fault if a gang attacks them for wearing the "wrong" color. The gang is still fucking stupid, the person should not have to change, but the color of the shirt they were wearing did affect whether they were attacked or not.

Shit, you guys always go straight for the attacks.
 

marrec

Banned
I actually read it when he posted it, but I decided to play Minecraft instead.

I'm going to use this when someone posits something so ridiculous that it does not merit response.

'I was going to answer you, but I decided to play Minecraft instead.'

Smart move.
 

marrec

Banned
Freeze. I should have put this caveat in when I said this, but I don't think that it's a woman's fault if she's sexually assaulted, ever.

Ever.

Just like it's not a person's fault if a gang attacks them for wearing the "wrong" color. The gang is still fucking stupid, the person should not have to change, but the color of the shirt they were wearing did affect whether they were attacked or not.

Shit, you guys always go straight for the attacks.

Like you weren't expecting the attack...

You may not feel it's the woman's fault ever, but that kind of language does not stop the cycle of victim blaming so no matter how many caveats you add it's still damaging.
 
Like you weren't expecting the attack...

You may not feel it's the woman's fault ever, but that kind of language does not stop the cycle of victim blaming so no matter how many caveats you add it's still damaging.

In that case, it was how I worded it that was the problem... It still stands that women are never ever at fault for it. But a lot of people try to cure the victim instead of the problem, which is the guys who are sexually assaulting people.

Oh boy. This thread has made me so incredibly depressed. All of it, just. Ugh.

I'm sorry for offending you.
 

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
In that case, it was how I worded it that was the problem... It still stands that women are never ever at fault for it. But a lot of people try to cure the victim instead of the problem, which is the guys who are sexually assaulting people.

If you're not trying to cure the victim, then there is absolutely no point in speaking about the victim in the way that you did. There's no point in even bringing up what the woman was wearing.
 
In that case, it was how I worded it that was the problem... It still stands that women are never ever at fault for it. But a lot of people try to cure the victim instead of the problem, which is the guys who are sexually assaulting people.

A change of clothes doesn't prevent jack shit. Most sexual assaults and rapes are by acquaintances. Someone who is believed to be trustworthy.
 
If you're not trying to cure the victim, then there is absolutely no point in speaking about the victim in the way that you did. There's no point in even bringing up what the woman was wearing.

I was just responding to the statement that it had no effect. It doesn't matter, like at all, and it's certainly not the problem - I was just saying...
 
I'm going to go out on a limb and posit that dogpiling JokeofSpades isn't going to accomplish much. The internet provides the rare opportunity to expose and correct antiquated and ignorant preconceptions that would otherwise go unchecked. Why waste that?
 
You should try not speaking for all men.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...lege-students-respond-being-propositioned-sex

We're done here. In this study, an average looking woman approached men on college campus's and asked them straight-up if they wanted to go back to her place and have sex. 75% of the men said yes. When they reversed it, and an average looking man asked women if they wanted to go back to his place and have sex, none of the women said yes. Not one. If a woman wants to have sex with a man, provided she isn't ugly, she pretty much just has to go up to a stranger, make a few minutes of small talk, and then ask him straight out to have sex.
.
 

marrec

Banned

So you should edit your post to say:

'75% of college boys would have sex with a woman if asked, which has nothing to do with my stupid fucking assertions that all men are sex crazed, I'm terribly sorry for wasting everyone's time'.

I'll wait.
 
You were just looking to start a fire.

I really wasn't. I hate confrontations like that. In real life I just pretend the disagreement never happened as soon as possible.

I'm going to go out on a limb and posit that dogpiling JokeofSpades isn't going to accomplish much. The internet provides the rare opportunity to expose and correct antiquated and ignorant preconceptions that would otherwise go unchecked. Why waste that?

Thank you. This is exactly true.

Another thing - no, no one speaks for all men or all women. We do generalize. People in this very thread have generalized genders before.

But generalizations are easier for studies and for such arguments.

And I disagree that what a woman's wearing would drive a guy crazy/to sexual assault. But I don't think of women sexually until I actually like them. I'm going to assume I'm weird that way, though, because many guys I know are the other way.
 

grumble

Member
I really wasn't. I hate confrontations like that. In real life I just pretend the disagreement never happened as soon as possible.



Thank you. This is exactly true.

Another thing - no, no one speaks for all men or all women. We do generalize. People in this very thread have generalized genders before.

But generalizations are easier for studies and for such arguments.

And I disagree that what a woman's wearing would drive a guy crazy/to sexual assault. But I don't think of women sexually until I actually like them. I'm going to assume I'm weird that way, though, because many guys I know are the other way.

The thing is, you don't really understand rape very well. Most rape victims aren't some girl walking alone on the street at night wearing a miniskirt and high heels, like you seem to imply. Most rape victims are assaulted by people they know, and rape is often about dominance and control instead of pure lust.

I'd be curious to classify rape victims' attire into conservative, normal or provocative and see how the numbers play out, and I'd expect it to follow the trends of the general population. Sure, there are probably instances where some guys get turned on by a scantily clad girl and force themselves on her, but saying that that is an enabling factor for rape in general is silly.
 
What I think you need to realize, Joker, is that whether a woman's choice of attire has an impact on her chances of being sexually assaulted/harassed or not doesn't matter. It's silly to think about or mention it because it's essentially irrelevant.

You're losing sight of the forest for the trees. Or something like that.
 
A change of clothes doesn't prevent jack shit. Most sexual assaults and rapes are by acquaintances. Someone who is believed to be trustworthy.

The thing is, you don't really understand rape very well. Most rape victims aren't some girl walking alone on the street at night wearing a miniskirt and high heels, like you seem to imply. Most rape victims are assaulted by people they know, and rape is often about dominance and control instead of pure lust.

I'd be curious to classify rape victims' attire into conservative, normal or provocative and see how the numbers play out, and I'd expect it to follow the trends of the general population. Sure, there are probably instances where some guys get turned on by a scantily clad girl and force themselves on her, but saying that that is an enabling factor for rape in general is silly.

That is something that I did not know. I was imagining victims left on the side of the street at night.

But if that's the case why are women afraid of walking alone at night? I thought the argument was along the lines of being sexually assaulted?
 

Satch

Banned
That is something that I did not know. I was imagining victims left on the side of the street at night.

But if that's the case why are women afraid of walking alone at night? I thought the argument was along the lines of being sexually assaulted?

Women are afraid of walking alone at night because they are afraid of being attacked.
 

Shouta

Member
Freeze. I should have put this caveat in when I said this, but I don't think that it's a woman's fault if she's sexually assaulted, ever.

Ever.

Just like it's not a person's fault if a gang attacks them for wearing the "wrong" color. The gang is still fucking stupid, the person should not have to change, but the color of the shirt they were wearing did affect whether they were attacked or not.

Shit, you guys always go straight for the attacks.

Let me explain why you're actually wrong about this because the rest of the people on your back about is absolutely dreadful at explaining it.

First off, your argument in the wider view of events isn't wrong but it isn't right, either. Yes, you shouldn't do things that put you at risk for another. If you don't want to get lung cancer, you shouldn't smoke. If you don't want to destroy your liver, you shouldn't overdrink, etc. Something along those lines, that type of reasoning works because there are perceivable effects and actual mechanisms at work to cause that relationship.

However, trying to apply that logic to human behavior doesn't work. It can't be boiled down to simple steps or cause & effect relationships. If it were that easy, I don't think anyone would ever have trouble finding a significant other. Hell, world peace would probably be easily achievable. Just because you do something like dangle money on a stick doesn't mean you'll get robbed because they may not have the intent of robbing you at all. The mindset of the other person has a huge effect on what happens. You could leave your car door open with the keys running and not be in sight and your car may not be stolen at all or you could have your car locked up like a max security prison but still have someone try to break in.

So trying to say that wearing more provocative clothing = higher chance of being a victim of sexual assault just doesn't work. A woman could be dancing around naked in a front of bunch of guys and it'd be quite possible not one of them would ever assault her. On the other hand, she could be locked up in a chastity belt and wearing whatever clothing Eskimos wear to combat the cold of winter yet still have someone force himself on her.

Now there is one other thing about your argument that doesn't work. As Devolution points out, most rapes don't occur randomly. They often occur in already established relationships. Clothing does not matter in those instances. Moreover, I recall reading somewhere that rapists that target random women don't do so because of clothing but perceived weakness. It's the ultimate, most disgusting power abuse there is and that's why it occurs but because of sexual appeal of the victim.

I certainly agree with you that stating a fact doesn't equate to blaming the victim. I'm all for personal responsible and knowing when to avoid a dangerous situation yourself. However, arguing less clothing results in higher chance of rape is stupid and doesn't work on a lot of levels, even if don't intend to blame the victim.
 
That is something that I did not know. I was imagining victims left on the side of the street at night.

But if that's the case why are women afraid of walking alone at night? I thought the argument was along the lines of being sexually assaulted?

Because while 2/3 of times women are attacked by someone known to us, 1/3 of the time women are attacked by strangers. Basically we have a lot to fear from guys and then despite the numbers of women sexually assaulted and raped we get called paranoid.
 
What I think you need to realize, Joker, is that whether a woman's choice of attire has an impact on her chances of being sexually assaulted/harassed or not doesn't matter. It's silly to think about or mention it because it's essentially irrelevant.

You're losing sight of the forest for the trees. Or something like that.

I guess. I was never trying to imply that it was their fault. I remember when Devo was talking about it a while ago (before my account was approved), I was rolling around the question in my mind as to whether it had mattered or not. I came to the conclusion that it still wasn't their fault.

But looking at Timedog's post, I guess he's right - words like that do serve to put the attention in the wrong place - I'm just specific about such statements, I guess. I meant no blame towards the women.

The example I came up with (and I've no idea if it's offensive or not - I'll repeat my plea of ignorance a third time) was that wearing a bulletproof vest or armor all the time would prevent people getting shot. But we should not (and as you can see) don't wear that all the time, and we shouldn't be required to (war is something entirely different). Nor should women be forced to dress differently than they want to dress to prevent anything. The responsibility is on the guys to not rape, period.

And that's something we should always remember.
 
Let me explain why you're actually wrong about this because the rest of the people on your back about is absolutely dreadful at explaining it.

First off, your argument in the wider view of events isn't wrong but it isn't right, either. Yes, you shouldn't do things that put you at risk for another. If you don't want to get lung cancer, you shouldn't smoke. If you don't want to destroy your liver, you shouldn't overdrink, etc. Something along those lines, that type of reasoning works because there are perceivable effects and actual mechanisms at work to cause that relationship.

However, trying to apply that logic to human behavior doesn't work. It can't be boiled down to simple steps or cause & effect relationships. If it were that easy, I don't think anyone would ever have trouble finding a significant other. Hell, world peace would probably be easily achievable. Just because you do something like dangle money on a stick doesn't mean you'll get robbed because they may not have the intent of robbing you at all. The mindset of the other person has a huge effect on what happens. You could live your car door open with the keys running and not be in sight and your car may not be stolen at all or you could have your car locked up like a max security prison but still have someone try to break in.

So trying to say that wearing more provocative clothing = higher chance of being a victim of sexual assault just doesn't work. A woman could be dancing around naked in a front of bunch of guys and it'd be quite possible not one of them would ever assault her. On the other hand, she could be locked up in a chastity belt and wearing whatever clothing Eskimos wear to combat the cold of winter yet still have someone force himself on her.

Now there is one other thing about your argument that doesn't work. As Devolution points out, most rapes don't occur randomly. They often occur in already established relationships. Clothing does not matter in those instances. Moreover, I recall reading somewhere that rapists that target random women don't do so because of clothing but perceived weakness. It's the ultimate, most disgusting power abuse there is and that's why it occurs but because of sexual appeal of the victim.

I certainly agree with you that stating a fact doesn't equate to blaming the victim. I'm all for personal responsible and knowing when to avoid a dangerous situation yourself. However, arguing less clothing results in higher chance of rape is stupid and doesn't work on a lot of levels, even if don't intend to blame the victim.

That absolutely makes sense. Even visual cues mean nothing in regards to the mindset. No, no that makes sense - I revoke my previous statement. Crazies gonna... be crazy. Duly noted.
 
Women are afraid of walking alone at night because they are afraid of being attacked.

Of getting mugged.

I assumed that the fear had been sexual, but this is also true.

Because while 2/3 of times women are attacked by someone known to us, 1/3 of the time women are attacked by strangers. Basically we have a lot to fear from guys and then despite the numbers of women sexually assaulted and raped we get called paranoid.

Who the hell calls people paranoid for that? It's realism.
 

marrec

Banned
I take it you missed the thread in which a prominent atheist woman talked about getting propositioned in an elevator and suffered hell for it. Even Dawkins was patronizing her.

Now you're opening old wounds, Dawkins never backed down from that either, not really.
 
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