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May Wrasslin |OT| Vince McMahon doesn't give 5 million f**ks what you think.

DKehoe

Member
I figure one exert from the Observer can't hurt. Here is Meltzer's thoughts on the Lesnar match (the article before the actual review)

For the last two years, when the subject of modern wrestling is brought up, noted legend (and WWE stockholder) Terry Funk would almost always bring up that pro wrestling needs a Johnny Valentine.

Old-timers, like the Funks, Jack Brisco, and the other top guys of the early 70s all ranked the father of Greg Valentine as one of the five best men they were ever in the ring with, and when you consider how many different people those

men were in the ring with touring in a business that employed tons more talent, that’s quite the praise.

Valentine’s philosophy was, “I can’t make them think wrestling is real, but I sure can make them think I’m real.”

Terry Funk got his wish a few weeks back when WWE signed Brock Lesnar. Sure, Lesnar had a run as a top guy in pro wrestling, youngest world champion in WWE history at the time, but he gained far more stardom as UFC champion, enough that he could command more than five times the money for less than one-tenth of the dates than he could the last time he and WWE were in negotiations and WWE thought they had a deal about five years ago.

A lot has come out of Extreme Rules and the decision to beat Lesnar in his first PPV match. Perhaps it’ll be something, like the WCW Invasion angle or Eric Bischoff’s shocking debut on Raw where the first thing he did was hug Vince McMahon, pissing away what would have been the most elementary and obvious feud. For all the success WWE has had in wrestling, two of the things on Vince McMahon’s track record is that he usually doesn’t do well in outside businesses, and he sucks when it comes to angles that the real world has handed him as gimmees as opposed to ones he came up with on his own. Still, in his mentality, this should not have fallen into that category. In McMahon’s mind, he made Lesnar, and to a degree, he did, even if he got bigger when he left.

And the promotion of Lesnar was perfect. He was portrayed as something very different from any other wrestler to come along. Unlike Ken Shamrock, a UFC star of another era who they trained to be a pro wrestler, Lesnar came in as a pro wrestler turned UFC fighter who was brought back as a UFC fighter in pro wrestling. He got his sponsors, his board shorts, and with a most willing dance partner, John Cena, got to bust people up legitimately in a way that nobody in WWE has ever been allowed to do, let alone encouraged to do.

In return, Cena may have found a way to be cheered in a way that television and PPV crowds have stopped doing for him for years. The adult male demo, that hated him for whatever reason you choose, were taken for an emotional ride to the point they were probably cheering him without even fully understanding why. But Cena, with his millions in the bank, and millions more to come, at 35 years old, was willing to be busted up to make his new foe into a different level threat.

One can question Cena then beating Lesnar in his first match in all day long, particularly since the match was absolutely perfect, until the finish, in making Lesnar into that something special and different. Cena vs. Lesnar had a level of suspension of disbelief that no WWE match has had in years, not even the Cena vs. Punk match came close. It’s not something you can replicate, because if you did, you’d have no wrestlers left to perform very quickly. Lesnar knocked Cena silly and busted him open right away with hard elbows to the forehead. Cena was covered in his own blood, a level of bloodletting unfamiliar in the modern WWE. Lesnar came in to a level of cheers that almost nobody short of Hulk Hogan or The Rock would get a few weeks ago, but now he was a heel the level that nobody had been in a WWE ring dating back to the days it was WWWF. He had completely replicated the UFC Brock Lesnar who talked into Las Vegas against Frank Mir and Randy Couture, where he represented an affront to the religion of an audience that thought their guys were real and he was fake, except the scariest thing of all, is that very quickly they realized he wasn’t. And it happened again.

If UFC could script outcomes, and Lesnar wasn’t so difficult to work with, he’d have been champion, dominated for so long there would be a natural babyface turn, and eventually lose when it was the right time, after a several year run, to the right guy, and the one loss alone, like when Sammartino lost to Graham, would keep business strong. But they can’t. WWE can.

But the truth is, the decision can be argued. The argument is this. What is Lesnar here for? Many years back, when Vince McMahon was negotiating for Lennox Lewis, the boxing champion, to face Lesnar, his hope to be the next big star, you could make an argument that for money, Lewis winning and then Lesnar coming back to beat him later would mean more. But nobody thought of it that way. The match fell through because Lewis realized Lesnar was more real than he was looking for, wanted a bunch of rule changes, and it became an unbookable match. The only thought, and this match was going to be a shoot, is that our guy who isn’t as big a star, beats the guy who is a bigger star, and gets credibility for it.

Some people thought McMahon was paying Lesnar all that money to do something stars were aligned for with Cena, HHH, Undertaker, The Rock and Steve Austin all potential big money matches. Run through several of them, become the hottest heel they’ve ever had, and then lose at WrestleMania.

Instead, the mentality was that we spent tons of money on this guy who has credibility and can garner attention, and how can we best use him to get our guys over. Well, come across as a threat, beat the holy shit out of him, and then our guy makes the comeback and beats him. First time.

The decision to put Cena over at Extreme Rules in Chicago’s All-State Arena on 4/29 was made probably before the match was announced. Lesnar was told at least two weeks ahead of time. He’s made it clear that he’s about the money, not the ego, and if they want him to lose, he has no problem with it as long as they play fair with him. Does that mean he’ll make tons of demands and be high maintenance? Well, he’s still Brock Lesnar. When that segment on Raw that ended the 4/23 show where Lesnar was making all the demands of John Laurinaitis was airing, I was thinking of people in UFC, because that was way too close to real life. Granted, the live audience didn’t get that and many were bored. The segment did play into the angle setting up presumably his next match with HHH, so in hindsight, it was part of a logical story. And today, we should be thankful for that because it’s the exception in modern booking rather than the rule.

Coming off the high of WrestleMania, and the natural post-Mania drop, Lesnar was the perfect direction to go with. They went from the glib entertaining charismatic foe for Cena to the scary ass kicker, who can give the vibe of being real.

Should Cena have been first, because the build and the anticipation is the real money and the capture is the end of the story and the segway to start a new story? Should Cena vs. Lesnar have been at SummerSlam if it was going first? Should Lesnar have won the first win setting up Cena getting his win in a year? All very valid questions.

But Vince was thinking differently. And it’s not unheard of. The Johnny Valentine of the next generation was Bruiser Brody. Brody had a very unique philosophy, which included throwing stiff kicks–not every time–but when the audience had its guard down, and thus would be shocked. Work a few, they think they’re seeing a fake pro wrestling match, and wham, all of a sudden the entire building changes. They think it’s a fight. It’s far more difficult to do that today. But Lesnar showed in the Cena match that it’s not impossible. But unfortunately, the level Brody had to go was enough that guys would be banged up, but they could work the next day, and the day after. To do that today, yes, it’s possible, but there are health concerns in the process. And let’s face it, Undertaker, Austin and The Rock are not letting this guy bust them up with shoot elbows and put his body and most of his power into knocking the wind out of them with a hard knee to the body. Still, Lesnar did bring a new dynamic and just coming out, he brings something out of the crowd that no heel has done in the company in recent times.

How much it could have been worth is something we’ll never know, just how we’ll never know what would have happened had Vince followed his original vision in 2001 after buying WCW, and the Tacoma crowd didn’t cause him to do a 180. PPV numbers, both here and at SummerSlam should give us an idea. Our poll of people who purchased the PPV, after the Lesnar loss, had 23% saying they were not buying another PPV. 11% more said they probably would not buy another but it’s not impossible to change their minds. 14% more said they would buy SummerSlam if he headlines, but not another “B” show. 19% buy WWE PPVs all the time, Lesnar or not. Another 19% would consider buying another show based on Lesnar headlining, but it would depend on the build. And another 15% said they would definitely buy the next show Lesnar headlines.

That would appear to be SummerSlam, against HHH, based on an angle shot the next day in Dayton where Lesnar used a Kimura, given that name instead of its pro wrestling term, the double wristlock, to “break the arm” of HHH in storyline. Because Lesnar used so many of his limited dates (five already in the first month), he’s probably going to be around sparingly if at all. It would make sense from here to go with Lesnar vs. HHH, and since HHH is largely retired, to give Lesnar a big win to start building him for a match with Rock, Austin or Undertaker at Mania. According to those close to the situation, it was made clear to Lesnar and Cena that this was a one match program, Cena gets his win, because that story of the babyface taking the ungodly beating and coming back to win has been told. Maybe it could have been months long, or a year long, and more money could have been drawn, but they felt that in real life, as opposed to storyline, Lesnar could leave at any time. They felt needed their top guy getting the win first time out to make sure it happened. They weren’t in the business of booking multiple Lesnar vs. Cena matches. They decided to only do one. And Cena probably is the guy who should beat Lesnar, but it also should have been at the end of the run, not the beginning. But you do have the New Japan example, where Lesnar was brought in, beat everyone and was to lose the IWGP title to Hiroshi Tanahashi. And instead, that never happened. In fairness to Lesnar, they cut his pay before the match so he decided not to return for less money than the original deal. But business wise, that’s the same Lesnar but a completely different game. This Lesnar after being UFC champion is multiple times the star of the New Japan version. And he’s also making even more multiple times the money, which is a factor that makes it a lot less likely he’ll bail ahead of time.

Last year’s Extreme Rules show did 108,000 domestic buys. Given that aside from Mania, the general trend is down, a base show without Lesnar would have probably doing in the 98,000 range. If Lesnar vs. Cena means as much as C.M. Punk’s threatening to quit and promo work, they hit 146,000. If it’s more, and it should be by a lot, and needs to be given what they are paying him, then Lesnar’s first time in had substantial drawing power. The thing is, the more added people Lesnar drew, the more they did hurt themselves having him lose. If this shows up and does 200,000, he’s got some huge drawing power because Rock couldn’t do that at Survivor Series and Punk couldn’t do that with one of the best angles WWE has done in years. If that happens, unless SummerSlam comes in and hits a very sizable increase from last year, then most likely the loss will have hurt. But if it does in the 130,000 range, while he would have drawn some extra fans, it’s not a ton extra, so he’s likely not drawing a ton extra at SummerSlam, whether he won or lost.

Our poll numbers were way up, but that’s to be expected. This kind of an angle hits our audience far more than the mainstream, just like the Punk angle did. Our numbers were 5% lower than for Punk vs. Cena last year, but I don’t read anything into that. Punk has never made a difference in a PPV number since, and he was put over. With Lesnar, there are so many dynamics in play.

But Vince’s attitude is not unprecedented, harkening back to Brody. Antonio Inoki always wanted to beat Brody from day one which led to all sorts of problems and eventually the relationship falling apart even though Brody was making ridiculous money based on that era. But that’s how Inoki did business.

In arguably New Japan’s biggest angle of its history, when the world champion shooter Nobuhiko Takada (amazing how much perceptions can change when reality interjects with fake reality) faced world champion Keiji Muto at the Tokyo Dome, doing at the time the biggest gate in history (and still among the biggest for pro wrestling), New Japan made the call that their guy won the first time. A lot of people argued with that, but wrestling was hot enough at the time and Takada was over enough that they got two more Dome sellouts. Takada won the title in the rematch, and then Shinya Hashimoto represented the home team and won the company’s world title back.

But years later, in a similar situation–the first All Japan vs. New Japan singles main event, Toshiaki Kawada vs. Kensuke Sasaki, New Japan put the outsider over. In doing so, they got a sellout the second time as well. But after Sasaki went over in the rematch, Kawada was never anywhere close to the level of a draw for New Japan again.

But uncertainty was another issue. In Memphis, when Jerry Lawler was top dog and would face a newcomer for a long program, he’d almost always lose the first time, sometimes the second time, but talk people into coming back and in the end he’d get his win. But with Brody, because of the uncertainty of how long Brody would stay, when he went to Memphis, they really pushed for Brody to lose right away. As it turned out, I don’t even know that they ever had a singles match. If they did, the whole program only lasted a few weeks and nobody ever beat the other so from a storytelling standpoint it didn’t have strong beginning or ending because Brody wasn’t going to lose because of Japan, and for Lawler, except for the uniqueness of having him in some tags, they couldn’t do a singles program for that reason.

The match itself was phenomenal, but again, it’s a one-time thing that really couldn’t be duplicated. My thought going in was that the key to this match was to build Lesnar for bigger money matches, which means not risking a long match, and having him go over strong. It was worked perfectly, and not only that, was such a great match without hurting Lesnar at all, at least in the body of the match, that going long was not just to the benefit of the match, but would have been to the benefit of long-term business. The finish is what it was. They had their reasons for the call. It was the wrong call for long-term business if Lesnar was staying long enough to get a few wins and build for a meaningful loss at the end. If Lesnar is gone before SummerSlam, it’s the right call.

And just after the match ended, something happened. This is the description. Lesnar was furious and making a scene. During the match, in the latter stages, Lesnar did a springboard flying clothesline to Cena, and inadvertently, he flew over the top rope with Cena, which was not his plan. He landed awkwardly on his leg, and at first appeared to blow out his knee. Apparently he was okay, because after getting an “oh shit” look on his face, he limped a few steps, then kept going and stopped limping. After the match he was complaining that Cena pulled down the rope, which caused him to fly over the top, and nearly blow out his knee.

In addition, when he was given the finish, he was told he was being protected because he was destroying Cena, that Cena would get the win, collapse, and have to be helped out of the ring and left for dead. Instead, Cena did a weird promo that based on what we were told, he was not authorized to do. Everyone backstage, including Vince McMahon either had no idea what he was doing (and it was not in the script for the show), or maybe Vince knew and was pretending. But given how it turned out, I’d bet on the former. In the interview, Cena talked about how much he gave for the match, and he did, how he was now going on vacation for a while. He talked about how everyone in WWE, good guys, bad guys, big guys and small guys, do everything they can to entertain you people. He said he was proud he could have a match like this in Chicago, and that if he’s leaving for a while, he wouldn’t want to have gone out any other way.

Then he was back on TV the next day, and announced as being the main event of the next PPV show, the 5/20 Over the Limit show in Raleigh that features Cena vs. John Laurinaitis, C.M. Punk vs. Daniel Bryan for the WWE title and while not announced yet, the plan was also for Sheamus vs. Alberto Del Rio for the world title.

Lesnar complained that he was double-crossed, said he was quitting and when Mark Carrano (who works under Laurinaitis in the Talent Relations department) tried to calm him down, Lesnar reportedly told him to do what the old DX catch phrase was, but not in comedic terms.

As far as what is and isn’t legit, everyone will interpret their own way. Carrano was said to be giving orders to Lesnar at that moment, and Lesnar was very mad about a lot of different things that happened and that the only time he came even close to wanting to quit was all due to how Carrano acted around him. Even those who insist the Lesnar quitting was a partial work say Carrano was not part of it and Lesnar was ready to quit over him. But that had nothing to do with what happened in the ring. Another person said Lesnar wasn’t mad or felt double-crossed on the promo in reality life, but he was legitimately upset over a number of things that happened during the match. But any talk of quitting past the Carrano deal was just to play into the angle that was supposed to happen. But that ended up being tweaked, as he never quit on the show. Instead, after breaking HHH’s arm in storyline, the only thing said is he was kicked out of the building by security. Announcer Michael Cole said that he was almost surely being fired, which is carny for tune in next week and see how they get out of it but he’ll be back for the grudge match.

Others have said both Cena and Lesnar were knocked silly from stiffing each other in the match, and Cena’s weird promo may have been because he was on auto pilot by that point in time from all the shots to the head during the match. Lesnar took a Cena chain shot that was hard enough to legitimately bust him open hard way to set up the finish.
 

Kaladin

Member
Pro wrestling fans looking to get into MMA are probably best checking out a fight that has a great storyline behind it. Silva/Sonnen 2 is a great example of this since it has a better storyline than anything the WWE has done in years. Watch the countdown shows, get to know who the guys are and why they are fighting each other and it becomes much more enjoyable for a beginner.

I find it difficult to care about most of the fighters. Sure the big names like Silva, Rampage, Jones and GSP all have great characters, but a lot of them might as well just be jobbers. I know there are countdown shows and The Ultimate Fighter, but those aren't as entertaining sometimes. Sometimes the countdown shows feel like I'm watching an hour long PPV highlight reel and that just gets boring.
 

Heel

Member
I was just curious because I was a longtime fan of pro wrestling but stopped watching during 02 or 03. I browse wrestling threads on GAF from time to time and am always surprised at how overwhelmingly negative the tone of the thread is in general.

So I was just curious what % of people tried the Ultimate out as a way to try to get their sports entertainment fix, or to the uninitiated an invitation to the insular community as it is.

Yes I want to invite all of our fellow Sports Entertainment friends to join us for the UFC on FOX card this weekend. The uninitiated won't mind the lack of star power.

Plus you'll get to see newly minted main eventer Nate Diaz, a man with the intellect and articulation to rival Scott Steiner.
 

DKehoe

Member
I find it difficult to care about most of the fighters. Sure the big names like Silva, Rampage, Jones and GSP all have great characters, but a lot of them might as well just be jobbers. I know there are countdown shows and The Ultimate Fighter, but those aren't as entertaining sometimes. Sometimes the countdown shows feel like I'm watching an hour long PPV highlight reel and that just gets boring.

Agreed, too many of the guys are just bland and interchangable in terms of personality. But I think a lot of the guys are starting to see that if you can be entertaining in what you say and can present yourself like a star (as Chael Sonnen has done) then people are going to care about you a lot more (and therefore you are going to make a lot more money) than if you are just a bland, respectful guy who has strung together a nice winning streak.
 

A Pretty Panda

fuckin' called it, man
If I was watching wrestling back when Bork was getting in to MMA I probably would have jumped ship that way. But now he's back and I dislike both of them. Oh well.
 
Are you aware of the history of the PRIDE MMA promotion in Japan? Originally having roots in UWFI and shoot-style wrestlers like Kazushi Sakuraba, Nobuhiko Takada, Kazuyuki Fujita etc. from that era transitioning to fighting in legitimate MMA matches.

MMA and wrestling are a lot more closely tied than most people think with Inoki etc.

I know of Pride, and of guys like Takada, Sayama & Maeda's involvement in MMA, but haven't really checked out any Japanese MMA.

sounds like you'd be a fan of former japanese pro wrestler Sakuraba, or Josh Barnett with his catch wrestling and great mic skills.

Yeah, I saw Barnett against Jerome Le Banner on one of Inoki's IGF shows and was surprised by how much I enjoyed it (given that IGF is mostly a train wreck).
 
Barnett is always fun in his pro wrestling matches in Japan. He did a good job at Dream's 12 hour New Years event this year. Though Sylvia in his, yeesh.
 
images-products-W02770pi.jpg



^Anyone know where I can get this?




But I prefer the blue one. Probably would be my first and only wrestling t-shirt.

It's one of the first reprints they did and sold on WWEShop. It went clearance a few months ago and snaged one. Good Luck if you can find one.
 

Heel

Member
Agreed, too many of the guys are just bland and interchangable in terms of personality. But I think a lot of the guys are starting to see that if you can be entertaining in what you say and can present yourself like a star (as Chael Sonnen has done) then people are going to care about you a lot more (and therefore you are going to make a lot more money) than if you are just a bland, respectful guy who has strung together a nice winning streak.

Yeah, in the last few years MMA fighters are figuring out how to market themselves and work the mic to their advantage. Sports Entertainment in MMA is in its infancy. Very few realize that there's more to drawing a crowd (and a lucrative contract) than winning by any (sometimes boring) means necessary.

That said, the action of the sport can be more than entertaining enough on its own merits.


lol
 

DKehoe

Member
Yeah, in the last few years MMA fighters are figuring out how to market themselves and work the mic to their advantage. Sports Entertainment in MMA is in its infancy. Very few realize that there's more to drawing a crowd (and a lucrative contract) than winning by any (sometimes boring) means necessary.

Even Jon Fitch was talking about this in an interview recently. Jon Fitch
 

Heel

Member
Even Jon Fitch was talking about this in an interview recently. Jon Fitch

Yeah, this is who I had in mind while writing that. He is one of the MMA holdouts who is actively against being entertaining, and thinks he's defending the sports' 'purity' or some crock of shit.

All the while he's going on some ungodly long winning streak but never getting a title shot. He should ask himself why. Boring style, no mic skills and not a draw. He's what's wrong with MMA to a lot of people.
 

dream

Member
also awesome from this week's Observer:

Lesnar wore a mouthpiece and wore the board shorts with sponsors, so he was UFC Brock Lesnar, except wearing wrestling boots. Michael Cole noted those were the same boots he wore to win the UFC title.

Raw on 4/30 ticked upward coming off the Extreme Rules PPV, doing a 3.33 rating and 4.87 million viewers. It did this going against two NBA playoff games on TNT, an early game that did a 3.28 rating and a late game that did a 3.55 rating. Raw was 2nd for the night behind the late game in ratings but had the most viewers of any cable show for the night.

It appears the rating was drawn based on the curiosity of the show and Lesnar, since the first quarter with Lesnar, HHH and John Laurinaitis did a 3.53 and was the highest rated segment of the show. The second quarter lost only 9,000 viewers, but Lesnar putting the Kimura on HHH came after the 15:00 mark and I’d guess that period did huge and they dropped for Santino Marella vs. Miz. Layla vs. Nikki Bella vs. Brie Bella lost 479,000 viewers. Chris Jericho vs. Big Show and Brodus Clay vs. JTG gained 282,000 viewers. Randy Orton vs. Jack Swagger lost 68,000 viewers in the 10 p.m. time slot. You could probably count on one hand the number of times they lost viewers in that slot over the last year. That’s the time of the show that people naturally by force of habit gravitate toward. The tag title change with R-Truth & Kofi Kingston over Primo & Epico lost 245,000 viewers. Great Khali vs. Kane gained 81,000 viewers. Daniel Bryan vs. Jerry Lawler lost 198,000 viewers. The final segment with John Cena being attacked by Laurinaitis, Lord Tensai and Sakamoto gained 578,000 viewers to a 3.49 overrun.
 

Seraphis Cain

bad gameplay lol
You guys know what I find to be awesome? When bad things happen to someone everyone else in the thread likes. That makes me cool and different, right?
 

Kaladin

Member
Recent Steiner twitter highlights via pwinsider......

"With eric bn gone chant 609 when garrett is in the ring... Instead of getting rid of the guys who are the problem they keep paying hogan n b-tchoff n try To save money else where,they no longer fly Taz n Tenay in for the tapings they Do voice overs in nashville..i betcha eric will try n replace them/one bn himself/ Saying hes saving the company money

"As i tweeted 3 wks ago jeremy Borash was the other guy that b-tchoff ripped on social Media which alot of guys came to his defense and called eric a piece of sh-t,so he realize he got heat so thats where That segment came from when Jeremy calld him out on open fight night tryin to defuse the heat by Putting it on the show,which then 609Garrett came out at the end of show to save the day..wtf bullsh-t... The thing is Borash has done more for TNA than b-tchoff has,and hes bn there since the beginning, And the last time i checkd all b-tchoff does is kill the ratings,and as bad as it is with him pushing his son

"The original plan was much worse,hogan n b---hoff sons were going to wrestling camp at same time... Thank god hogans son has his p-ssy genes and quit otherwise the fans would have to suffer with These 2 a--holes nepotism's their non athletic sons to the top,as soon as b---hoff leaves TNA,609Garrett Career will be over,bcuz guys will kick his a-- out of spite bcuz Eric is such a piece of sh-t"

WTF.....so glad we don't have Nick Hogan in TNA with Garrett Bishoff.
 

dream

Member
Judging by the hundreds of thousands of viewers that change the channel every time Daniel Bryan is on Monday Night Raw Supershow, liking Daniel Bryan is what makes you different.
 

Ithil

Member
Who knew Steiner had so much coherent truth in him?

I'd written him off as completely bonkers by this time but seems like he doesn't miss a beat.
 

Seraphis Cain

bad gameplay lol
Judging by the hundreds of thousands of viewers that change the channel every time Daniel Bryan is on Monday Night Raw Supershow, liking Daniel Bryan is what makes you different.

Being different from the average wrestling fan isn't something I'm ashamed of.
 

Chopper

Member
He'll only be Rhyperior once he gets traded to Smackdown.
God dammit. That is the best fucking Pokemon/wrestling crossover joke I have ever heard in my entire life. If I knew how to post gifs from my iPad, I would Citizen Kane the shit out of that. Bra-fucking-vo. My day won't get any better! I'm going to bed.
 

RBH

Member
And just after the match ended, something happened. This is the description. Lesnar was furious and making a scene. During the match, in the latter stages, Lesnar did a springboard flying clothesline to Cena, and inadvertently, he flew over the top rope with Cena, which was not his plan. He landed awkwardly on his leg, and at first appeared to blow out his knee. Apparently he was okay, because after getting an “oh shit” look on his face, he limped a few steps, then kept going and stopped limping. After the match he was complaining that Cena pulled down the rope, which caused him to fly over the top, and nearly blow out his knee.

In addition, when he was given the finish, he was told he was being protected because he was destroying Cena, that Cena would get the win, collapse, and have to be helped out of the ring and left for dead. Instead, Cena did a weird promo that based on what we were told, he was not authorized to do. Everyone backstage, including Vince McMahon either had no idea what he was doing (and it was not in the script for the show), or maybe Vince knew and was pretending. But given how it turned out, I’d bet on the former. In the interview, Cena talked about how much he gave for the match, and he did, how he was now going on vacation for a while. He talked about how everyone in WWE, good guys, bad guys, big guys and small guys, do everything they can to entertain you people. He said he was proud he could have a match like this in Chicago, and that if he’s leaving for a while, he wouldn’t want to have gone out any other way.

Then he was back on TV the next day, and announced as being the main event of the next PPV show, the 5/20 Over the Limit show in Raleigh that features Cena vs. John Laurinaitis, C.M. Punk vs. Daniel Bryan for the WWE title and while not announced yet, the plan was also for Sheamus vs. Alberto Del Rio for the world title.

Lesnar complained that he was double-crossed, said he was quitting and when Mark Carrano (who works under Laurinaitis in the Talent Relations department) tried to calm him down, Lesnar reportedly told him to do what the old DX catch phrase was, but not in comedic terms.

As far as what is and isn’t legit, everyone will interpret their own way. Carrano was said to be giving orders to Lesnar at that moment, and Lesnar was very mad about a lot of different things that happened and that the only time he came even close to wanting to quit was all due to how Carrano acted around him. Even those who insist the Lesnar quitting was a partial work say Carrano was not part of it and Lesnar was ready to quit over him. But that had nothing to do with what happened in the ring. Another person said Lesnar wasn’t mad or felt double-crossed on the promo in reality life, but he was legitimately upset over a number of things that happened during the match. But any talk of quitting past the Carrano deal was just to play into the angle that was supposed to happen. But that ended up being tweaked, as he never quit on the show. Instead, after breaking HHH’s arm in storyline, the only thing said is he was kicked out of the building by security. Announcer Michael Cole said that he was almost surely being fired, which is carny for tune in next week and see how they get out of it but he’ll be back for the grudge match.

Others have said both Cena and Lesnar were knocked silly from stiffing each other in the match, and Cena’s weird promo may have been because he was on auto pilot by that point in time from all the shots to the head during the match. Lesnar took a Cena chain shot that was hard enough to legitimately bust him open hard way to set up the finish.
So Cena basically did go into business for himself with that promo.
 
D

Deleted member 47027

Unconfirmed Member
Who knew Steiner had so much coherent truth in him?

I'd written him off as completely bonkers by this time but seems like he doesn't miss a beat.

He's got his head on straight, I like it. He's not as insane as he plays on tV.
 

dream

Member
Gutierrez was called by John Laurinaitis on 4/25 and asked when he could return, and he said he was hoping to be back in June, and Laurinaitis told him that it looks like July because you’re suspended for two months. The company announced the suspension publicly the next day.

Holy shit that is badass.
 

Chopper

Member
Meltzer said:
Others have said both Cena and Lesnar were knocked silly from stiffing each other in the match, and Cena’s weird promo may have been because he was on auto pilot by that point in time from all the shots to the head during the match. Lesnar took a Cena chain shot that was hard enough to legitimately bust him open hard way to set up the finish.
Whattamark. Lesnar clearly bladed.
 
So Cena basically did go into business for himself with that promo.

he ether did it on his own in which case he is a douche bag who didnt want to make Brock look good or he did it with Vinces approval in which case he is still a douche bag.



Really if he did it after the cameras where off I dont think anyone would give a shit. The fact the PPV was still on air makes me think Vince approved it.



But they really need to make Brock look strong again after that ending with Cena.

Hopefully Triple H lets him get the win in there feud.
HA

I get that they want to have him put over the current guys but you have to build someone up before doing that. Booking 101.

You build up a bad guy... he beats your top guys.. then after a few months a young guy gets the win and is made a superstar.

Now that they already made Brock beatable and weaker then Cena any losses Brock has mean a hell off a lot less then what they could have.


In a perfect logical word Cena would have lost and taken that break he was talking about. Brock would have continued beat people up for a few months then Cena returns and causes Brock to lose to someone in the midcard.

That mid card guy gets the biggest win of his career and Cena can finish his feud with Brock at SummerSlam or something.


Before all this I did think that Cena was just a nice guy and Vince was the one afraid of letting his money machine lose but now I see Cena is in WCW hogan mode and doesnt want to let anyone else on his level which explains the years of dirty finishes and "oh but my foot as on / under the ropes"
 
What exactly happened to kill the Luger/Perfect angle? Perfect fucked over Luger at WM10, did the promo on Raw, and then just disappeared again. Luger then immediately started the angle with Ted DiBiase that led to Tatanka's heel turn.

It is foolish to hold out hope for an Iron Man match at one of the two PPVs? Both are unimportant PPVs, the WWE may not care about taking up a lot of one.

Welcome back.
 

Novid

Banned
he ether did it on his own in which case he is a douche bag who didnt want to make Brock look good or he did it with Vinces approval in which case he is still a douche bag.



Really if he did it after the cameras where off I dont think anyone would give a shit. The fact the PPV was still on air makes me think Vince approved it.



But they really need to make Brock look strong again after that ending with Cena.

Hopefully Triple H lets him get the win in there feud.
HA

I get that they want to have him put over the current guys but you have to build someone up before doing that. Booking 101.

You build up a bad guy... he beats your top guys.. then after a few months a young guy gets the win and is made a superstar.

Now that they already made Brock beatable and weaker then Cena any losses Brock has mean a hell off a lot less then what they could have.


In a perfect logical word Cena would have lost and taken that break he was talking about. Brock would have continued beat people up for a few months then Cena returns and causes Brock to lose to someone in the midcard.

That mid card guy gets the biggest win of his career and Cena can finish his feud with Brock at SummerSlam or something.


Before all this I did think that Cena was just a nice guy and Vince was the one afraid of letting his money machine lose but now I see Cena is in WCW hogan mode and doesnt want to let anyone else on his level which explains the years of dirty finishes and "oh but my foot as on / under the ropes"

Maybe he became that way. Stay in one place long enough and you would think you own the whole damn place.
 
Hello sports entertainment friends, I'd like to poll members of Wrassle-GAF to see what percentage of fans are also fans of Ultimate Fighting, pro wrestling's second cousin.

If I had to speak for the Ultimate Fighting community on GAF, it appears that a majority of our members are former pro wrestling fans that have branched out to other forms of sports entertainment.

here are some informative posts if you would like to learn more about Ultimate Fighting.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=30644141&postcount=1
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=37508436&postcount=1

I encourage some of the disillusioned fans of sports entertainment to join the most insular sports entertainment community on GAF.

We've got squash matches, bad booking, an egomaniac president/company spokesman, some good mic work, and our pay-per-views are on Saturday.

Regards

I enjoy my fare share of MMA. I'm around for every UFC PPV, and even sat through HOURS of that DREAM New Year's show which was way more entertaining than it had any right to be. I don't really participate in day-to-day MMA discussion because, frankly, backstage wrestling politics are way more fun.
 
D

Deleted member 8095

Unconfirmed Member
You guys act like HHH has never lost a match.
 

Novid

Banned
This is the problem. Lesnar was ready to job. He knew the drama it would create for the little jimmies that Cena basicly get destroyed. Great story. The kids would cry again and realize - Cena is just human (finally).

But i dont even Vince realized how Cena screwed this up. The problem is he cant say anything. Maybe Cena got concussed on one of the botches. who knows. but to just say thank you im going to do movies for a bit instead of playing the part and saving the company face? Diva-esce bitch ass move. The sad truth is that Vince is dying. I know it just based on his actions. And everybody is trying to put its own mark on the company.
 
I was pretty big into UFC for about a year, around the time Lesnar started. My favorite fight of that time was Forrest Griffin v Rampage Jackson. Was a really good fight, and a good build too.

Last show I watched was Lesnar v Mir 2, when Lesnar cut a pretty awesome promo and made all the marks I was watching with get way mad. Not too long after that I just stopped following though.

I'm probably going to be watching my first UFC show in three years this Saturday, as long as work doesn't decide to call me.
 
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