Only two out of the four players can make our sunday game this time but the show must go on

Danoss said:

So Mouse Guard got a full writeup on the PA Report. Any exposure for the little guys to encourage people to look past the heavyweights of the industry or even attract them to try it in the first place is excellent.

I've been hearing great things about new gamers being exposed to tabletop games at PAX. I hope the trend continues, these guys deserve to be far more successful than they are.

Click to expand...

I'd love to see a homebrew mod that added hedge magic to it. Sacrilege to some, but I thing it would improved it so much. =)

So, I'll write about My Life with Master, which is a cute little indie game that I think simply must have some more exposure.

I'll start with a story. In our group, we have this guy, Tomer - He's what we call a system-breaker. If your system has a hole in it, he'll make it into a goddamn chasm. If there is a way to make an overpowered character he'll find it an abuse it to hell. He's not a bad player, in fact, he's one of our better players. He actually hates any system that allows him to abuse it. He's usually out indicator to whether the system is good enough. Anyway, he has an ideal when it comes to systems - A game system, should work much like kid's board games. You remember, when you were kids, the guy who owned the game knew the rules, and everyone else would just start playing. Eventually, everyone knew how to play. A system has to be simple enough only one person has to really know it.

My Life with Master completely nails this. The book is small and thin (much like Dread), and character creation and gameplay is so easy you could basically find any couple of guys, gamers or not, and in 20 minutes they'll all get the basic game.

The game is about playing an Igor-like servant for an evil master - Whether he's a mad scientist or a solitary necromancer. The game doesn't really have campaigns, and the game master (quite literally in this case, as the game master is the titular Master) doesn't really have to build a whole lot of plot. The game is so tropey the basic plot and story are always pretty much the same. You live in some castle with your Master, there is a town nearby. Other than that, the setting could be pretty much anything.
Character creation was a great experience, you have some stats (Self-Loathing and Weariness, plus two "game" stats - Fear and Reason.), but those take less than a minute to resolve. Than, you have to give your character one "More than human" and one "Less than human" attribute - those are one good and bad characteristic respectively. They also have to have one "unless" condition. For example, one character in our game, Snetch, could fly with his bat like wings - Unless it was day time. He was also blind - Unless it was night time. You also have to choose two contacts - People who caught your eyes while you were roaming the town.
The game works pretty much like this - Your Master gives each minion one task to fulfill. You than can try and resist him (winning this would bring forth the End Game) or go along with your assignment. Your goal is to resist the Master, through earning Love from the townsfolk you make connections with. Failing to gain Love bring forth more Self-Loathing.
The game is built to really feel like those old horror movies, and it leads you along the way without feeling restricting. I think it's a true example of a story-telling RPG.
The system is pretty simple, I did not like the excessive rolling, which can come up to 10 dice at a time. But seeing as how you roll pretty rarely (one per scene, usually) and that you only roll d4s - We just used some computerized roller and it worked perfectly.

I can't recommend this game enough. It has achieved something few other RPG have - a real pick-up and play feel. It could just as easily work as a party game!
If you want a nice different experience, you should check this out.

dude said:

So, I'll write about My Life with Master, which is a cute little indie game that I think simply must have some more exposure.

I'll start with a story. In our group, we have this guy, Tomer - He's what we call a system-breaker. If your system has a hole in it, he'll make it into a goddamn chasm. If there is a way to make an overpowered character he'll find it an abuse it to hell. He's not a bad player, in fact, he's one of our better players. He actually hates any system that allows him to abuse it. He's usually out indicator to whether the system is good enough. Anyway, he has an ideal when it comes to systems - A game system, should work much like kid's board games. You remember, when you were kids, the guy who owned the game knew the rules, and everyone else would just start playing. Eventually, everyone knew how to play. A system has to be simple enough only one person has to really know it.

My Life with Master completely nails this. The book is small and thin (much like Dread), and character creation and gameplay is so easy you could basically find any couple of guys, gamers or not, and in 20 minutes they'll all get the basic game.

The game is about playing an Igor-like servant for an evil master - Whether he's a mad scientist or a solitary necromancer. The game doesn't really have campaigns, and the game master (quite literally in this case, as the game master is the titular Master) doesn't really have to build a whole lot of plot. The game is so tropey the basic plot and story are always pretty much the same. You live in some castle with your Master, there is a town nearby. Other than that, the setting could be pretty much anything.
Character creation was a great experience, you have some stats (Self-Loathing and Weariness, plus two "game" stats - Fear and Reason.), but those take less than a minute to resolve. Than, you have to give your character one "More than human" and one "Less than human" attribute - those are one good and bad characteristic respectively. They also have to have one "unless" condition. For example, one character in our game, Snetch, could fly with his bat like wings - Unless it was day time. He was also blind - Unless it was night time. You also have to choose two contacts - People who caught your eyes while you were roaming the town.
The game works pretty much like this - Your Master gives each minion one task to fulfill. You than can try and resist him (winning this would bring forth the End Game) or go along with your assignment. Your goal is to resist the Master, through earning Love from the townsfolk you make connections with. Failing to gain Love bring forth more Self-Loathing.
The game is built to really feel like those old horror movies, and it leads you along the way without feeling restricting. I think it's a true example of a story-telling RPG.
The system is pretty simple, I did not like the excessive ruling, which can come up to 10 dice at a time. But seeing as how you rule pretty rarely (one per scene, usually) and that you only rule d4s - We just used some computerized ruler and it worked perfectly.

I can't recommend this game enough. It has achieved something few other RPG have - a real pick-up and play feel. It could just as easily work as a party game!
If you want a nice different experience, you should check this out.

Click to expand...

I love the sound of this. May just have to pick it up!

Danoss said:

So Mouse Guard got a full writeup on the PA Report. Any exposure for the little guys to encourage people to look past the heavyweights of the industry or even attract them to try it in the first place is excellent.

I've been hearing great things about new gamers being exposed to tabletop games at PAX. I hope the trend continues, these guys deserve to be far more successful than they are.

Click to expand...

Give Luke more money!

krypt0nian said:

A hahahahaha then he says play 4E. Ask WoTC how 4E is doing for them as they beg people to come back to DnD with their transparent attempts to be the company you just called terrible.

Click to expand...

4E did pretty awesomely and made WoTC a lot of money! Since, you know, if it hadn't they wouldn't be making any new D&D stuff. The fact that they got a backwards idiot on the next design team (Thankfully he's left, so who knows, it might actually be good!) has more to do with his own myopic game design ideas and people listening to retarded internet echo chamber arguments. And Pazio only suceeded because they courted terrible regressive grognards who actively want games to be stagnant and backwards.

So basically if you hate progress and good game design, Pathfinder is for you!

This is the first time I've seen fanboyism in P&P gaming...

PataHikari said:

4E did pretty awesomely and made WoTC a lot of money! Since, you know, if it hadn't they wouldn't be making any new D&D stuff. The fact that they got a backwards idiot on the next design team (Thankfully he's left, so who knows, it might actually be good!) has more to do with his own myopic game design ideas and people listening to retarded internet echo chamber arguments. And Pazio only suceeded because they courted terrible regressive grognards who actively want games to be stagnant and backwards.

So basically if you hate progress and good game design, Pathfinder is for you!

Click to expand...

There is something terribly wrong with you.

@Dude, I'm just putting him on /ignore. It's like talking on the WOW boards to a 10yr old.

I will say that I think Pathfinder is horribly overrated around the web... I don't think it fixes any of the things essentially wrong with D&D or D20 (Like what D&D Next is trying to do, or now possibly was?) It is definitely better than D&D 4e though.
And I find PataHikari's loyalty to WoTC, a horrible company by any measurable means, odd. Say what you will about Pathfinder, but I find Paizo to be an excellent publishers, who's pretty in touch with it's fans.

I dislike both D&D and Pathfinder. They're a long way from where I think RPGs should be. While Pathfinder filled a gap in the market that was left when D&D evolved into the misstep of 4e, I think it was a step in the wrong direction.

WotC have a big job to do at the moment. Trying to be everything to everybody is a huge task. To what degree they succeed remains to be seen, however I am interested to see what they do. It would be a shame to see that brand struggle more, as it is a gateway into this hobby for many.

Luckily there are a plethora of choices out there for us already in the hobby. No point putting down a game system or brand when you can just go and play something else that appeals to you.

AusGAF's D&D group fell apart, so I'm looking to introduce them to one of the Cthulhu systems soon enough. I guess I'll be raining death upon them at some point, and I think dying or being very close to death will be a refreshing change for them. I'm interested in seeing how they react to this and not being able to just crush whatever enemy is presented to the party.

Gah, i'm going to GM first session with my next RPG on Sunday and i ran into a pretty big plot issue, one that will players either to meta-game or they will become apathetic.
I like developing plots but i lack objectivity to notice issues in them. Good thing my mind started wander while talking about another player's character, suddenly realized the issue.

(And while writing this, i more or less solved that.)

Also, an odd question, a but out of place but related to worldbuilding: is there any inert gas that could partially replace nitrogen in atmosphere and is harmless to humans if breathed?
Setting a game on partially terraformed world. Not really big deal, i can always handwave the issue and say "5% oxygen and various other gases compromising the rest".

dude said:

This is the first time I've seen fanboyism in P&P gaming...

Click to expand...

Really? People have been hating on D&D pretty much since it existed. Every few years there be be a "not" D&D fantasy game trying to solve its perceived problems

This though is really the first time the ranks of D&D players have been so splintered. You have 3 camps - those that were disillusioned with 3.x and went back to old school D&D (pretty small but vocal and creative), those that moved ahead to 4e, and the biggest group, those that liked 3.x and who mostly moved to Pathfinder.

DiscoJer said:

Really? People have been hating on D&D pretty much since it existed. Every few years there be be a "not" D&D fantasy game trying to solve its perceived problems

This though is really the first time the ranks of D&D players have been so splintered. You have 3 camps - those that were disillusioned with 3.x and went back to old school D&D (pretty small but vocal and creative), those that moved ahead to 4e, and the biggest group, those that liked 3.x and who mostly moved to Pathfinder.

Click to expand...

Oh, I've seen hate around the web, I've just never seen anyone actually liking WoTC. The most I've seen is indifferent coping. Usually, people develop fanboyish tendencies to White Wolf.

I'm also not sure about which group is the largest - 4e was very beginner-friendly and I think WoTC actually got quite a bit of new players.

Woorloog said:

Gah, i'm going to GM first session with my next RPG on Sunday and i ran into a pretty big plot issue, one that will players either to meta-game or they will become apathetic.
I like developing plots but i lack objectivity to notice issues in them. Good thing my mind started wander while talking about another player's character, suddenly realized the issue.

(And while writing this, i more or less solved that.)

Also, an odd question, a but out of place but related to worldbuilding: is there any inert gas that could partially replace nitrogen in atmosphere and is harmless to humans if breathed?
Setting a game on partially terraformed world. Not really big deal, i can always handwave the issue and say "5% oxygen and various other gases compromising the rest".

Click to expand...

I don't know shit about chemistry, but unless this is a hard sci-fi game or that this information has some great importance to the player, I wouldn't bother finding the actual mix of the atmosphere. This sounds like, at best, a cool nifty background fact. As a player, I would have forgotten what the mixture is by the time you'd finish telling me. It's cool to have these sort of details, but usually it's best to pick your battles.

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to risk ostracizing myself from a lot of people here. I can't help but think that some of the responses to PataHikari (as mean spirited as his post was) are just a little hypocritical. Every one of the last few pages in this thread has had at least one post that reads like a paid advert or testimonial for Paizo/Pathfinder.

A few days ago I expressed interested in the Gunslinger class in Pathfinder...well there's a pirate themed book coming soon from Paizo™! Excellent publishers, who are pretty in touch with the fans as well as Gamers making products for Gamers.

Songbird said:

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to risk ostracizing myself from a lot of people here. I can't help but think that some of the responses to PataHikari (as mean spirited as his post was) are just a little hypocritical. Every one of the last few pages in this thread has had at least one post that reads like a paid advert or testimonial for Paizo/Pathfinder.

A few days ago I expressed interested in the Gunslinger class in Pathfinder...well there's a pirate themed book coming soon from Paizo™! Excellent publishers, who are pretty in touch with the fans as well as Gamers making products for Gamers.

Click to expand...

He jumped me like a crazed fanboy a page ago. If I was less than nice, it's a theme that has been set.

I do appreciate Paizo recently. They treat their fan with respect, and interact daily on the boards and on FB. Pata is coming at this from such a strange viewpoint. Calling them the worst company which I've found to be simply untrue. Unlike WoTC, they are run by actual gamers, and make choices that benefit gamers. I love this thread, and people have been amazing to each other.

Except for Pata. Much like the #dnd #4e Twitter community, he seems to take criticisms personally, as if his child was attacked, and then lashes out.

Paizo saved the game that I love more than any other. Like I said, while I enjoyed 4E, after two years, it just no longer felt like what I consider D&D. Too many important things were sacrificed in the name of new game mechanics IMO, and while it's a fun tabletop game, and easy to learn, it's not D&D for me and many others. They have mismanaged it from the very start, even before it launched with their adversarial slanted advertising.

I have high hopes for the new game, and look forward to play testing and submitting my findings to help make this new game what I need from Dungeons & Dragons. I love the whole hobby, but for me it always comes back to the main game, D&D. I've played a hundred systems, but my head in the end is hard wired to heroic adventuring in a Tolkien inspired party of compatriots. And for now, Pathfinder is that game.

I fought tooth and nail against it. I saw it as a threat to the game I grew up with, and that gave me endless hours of enjoyment. How funny that, I end up realizing that it's at more in the spirit of the game then Wizards of the Coast's iteration which actually owns the name.

Perhaps I could have turned the other cheek when jumped on, but I am sick to death of his type of attitude online. It's unwarranted, and wrongheaded IMO. He even besmirched Monte Cook's departure, and he did more for this game than anyone since Gygax and Arneson IMO, along with Ryan Dancey's push for the OGL, which caused a gaming renaissance, long before WotC ditched 3.5 since they didn't want to share the spotlight with 3rd parties anymore and took D&D back behind the stone walls of Hasbro.


/rant

krypt0nian said:

He jumped me like a crazed fanboy a page ago. If I was less than nice, it's a theme that has been set.

Click to expand...

Thanks for not jumping on me like you probably should've. You make a lot of sense here!

Songbird said:

Thanks for not jumping on me like you probably should've. You make a lot of sense here!

Click to expand...

Good lord no. You just stated an opinion that wasn't wrong. I did lash out, but I just wanted to express my feelings and the reasoning behind it.

For those who're keen for some of that Roll20 action, here's their latest update in case you're interested.

Roll20 said:

Today is the last day of the Kickstarter. If you haven't already, there are 14 hours remaining to pledge your support for Roll20 and join us during the closed beta.

Beyond that, we're inviting you to join us tonight for our weekly game, which we will be live streaming on Twitch.tv:

http://www.twitch.tv/roll20app

This is NOT meant to be a huge question and answer session-- we'll be busy playing our own game. Nor is it really meant to be an in depth demonstration-- we'll be playing our basic game, the way we play it. There will be homebrewed elements and inside jokes, and all manner of things that could make the stream unenjoyable for some of you (did we mention we've never done this streaming thing before?). BUT we wanted to give a sneak peek to you of this system doing what it does best: allowing friends to gather around a table and tell stories together.

So, those of you that are interested, we'll see you tonight starting at 8:00 PM U.S. Central Time (9:00 PM Eastern). We'll also send out an announcement on our Twitter feed when the broadcast is starting.

And for everyone who will be joining us for the beta, we hope to have you starting your own stories this week.

Click to expand...

I've pledged $25 to get in on the beta and play with some of the AusGAF crew. I'm interested to see how it flows with these guys, even though I'll be able to tinker with it soon enough.

Under 12 hours to go if you want to get in on the closed beta. I believe it will remain in closed beta for a few months before it becomes available for all.

Danoss said:

I've pledged $25 to get in on the beta and play with some of the AusGAF crew. I'm interested to see how it flows with these guys, even though I'll be able to tinker with it soon enough.

Under 12 hours to go if you want to get in on the closed beta. I believe it will remain in closed beta for a few months before it becomes available for all.

Click to expand...

Damn, I can't afford beta access. Will try and watch the stream though!

Danoss said:

For those who're keen for some of that Roll20 action, here's their latest update in case you're interested.



I've pledged $25 to get in on the beta and play with some of the AusGAF crew. I'm interested to see how it flows with these guys, even though I'll be able to tinker with it soon enough.

Under 12 hours to go if you want to get in on the closed beta. I believe it will remain in closed beta for a few months before it becomes available for all.

Click to expand...

SOOOO HYPED that they got funded and overfunded! This may be the table that catches on finally.

Totally forgot to fund this and would kill to beta this as my main group is spread across the country.

We're running a Primetime Adventures game next week, I'm pretty excited - it sounds great!

dude said:

We're running a Primetime Adventures game next week, I'm pretty excited - it sounds great!

Click to expand...

Not familiar but googling now.

krypt0nian said:

Not familiar but googling now.

Click to expand...

It's basically a game about playing in a TV series, with the game master being the "producer". I has a neat little system for keeping true to the TV series formula and sounds pretty cool in general.

dude said:

It's basically a game about playing in a TV series, with the game master being the "producer". I has a neat little system for keeping true to the TV series formula and sounds pretty cool in general.

Click to expand...

neat, sounds like a homebrew setup some friends of mine and I threw together that we called "Dungeons...of DOOM", with your favorite evil Dungeon Overlord, Bob Ross.

dude said:

It's basically a game about playing in a TV series, with the game master being the "producer". I has a neat little system for keeping true to the TV series formula and sounds pretty cool in general.

Click to expand...

That does sound cool. Do you know the show's premise yet?

Did you ever get a reply from Evilore?

krypt0nian said:

That does sound cool. Do you know the show's premise yet?

Did you ever get a reply from Evilore?

Click to expand...

No... and I PM'd him twice I think! Maybe I should PM another mod? A less busy one?

And not yet... I'm not running the game though, will have to ask the Producer

I have this idea for a scifi setting: Our own solar system only, with alternate history where the Cold War beetween USA and Soviet Union is still ongoing, though in space. Somewhat retro, no? One odd addition though: whereas computer tech is not as advanced as in our world, cyborgs are very common. Cyborgs with modular implants/cybernetics, easily swappable. These would be part of the "skill" system.
Anyway, before proceeding with this, i need to figure out what players could do in such a world. It won't be about exploration like my current scifi game. Politics and war would be heavily present but those tend to be in every game... so what else? I would love to have something other than combat and persuding NPCs. Oh, all sorts of more mundane stuff works but... well, i find it hard to think something interesting to do there, mundane is rarely that interesting.
I would like to avert this being military science fiction, if possible. Though my current game is not military SF so i could run a more militaristic game next.

Are there any other good PnP RPG podcasts like Critical Hit and the Penny Arcade one? Really love listening to those.

This is the part I hate about PnP RPGs, trying to get the Pathfinder group going again and everytime someone or two cant that evening. I wanna go about adventuring with my Half-Orc Monk again.

Got another group now interested to play Shadowrun over the net, going to be my first time playing and also GMing it. Doing the introductory adventure On the Run included in the Runners Toolkit.

Keasar said:

This is the part I hate about PnP RPGs, trying to get the Pathfinder group going again and everytime someone or two cant that evening. I wanna go about adventuring with my Half-Orc Monk again.

Got another group now interested to play Shadowrun over the net, going to be my first time playing and also GMing it. Doing the introductory adventure On the Run included in the Runners Toolkit.

Click to expand...

Yeah... That's the biggest flaw of RPGs, getting everyone together week after week. Every time a player is missing, the game feels weird story-wise and the player feels like he's missing out.
That's why we made our current group setup like this: We're basically some friends (about 20 people) on this Facebook group I opened, at any time someone will open a game (usually once per week), rather than campaigns we'll play one-shot stuff or occasionally 2-3 session games. Everyone in the group who can go to or has interest in playing the game can join (we usually cap the session at about 5 players and if there's a strong demand the GM will open another one). It both allow us to play a lot without people missing out, try out loads of different games and the rotating GMs and players make for a lot of diversity in game style.

We also had, simultaneously, a campaign game going until about a month ago but that died for the usual reasons (people couldn't make it, games were getting delayed etc. etc.)
Long campaigns are getting less and less reasonable in my age group (22), everybody's working at odd hours, has stuff to do, classes to attend.
This thing is working perfectly for us right now and I recommend more people to try a similar setup.

Yeah scheduling drives me mad too. Makes me long for the endless summers and the days and nights of adventure.

I've been lucky enough to join a group of friends that have been together since early high school. The oldest of them is a bit over 40 and as well as the newest member, I'm also the youngest at 30.

We get together once a fortnight on Saturday and play for 6 hours between 1-7. The off-week is either a week off or we play some board games together for whoever feels like turning up. This gives everyone some free time to themselves if they want it, but can play some other games if they feel like it too.

This seems to be a great formula and we will continue on if someone can't make it. That has only happened one time since we decided to do that. We roleplayed it that he had a fungal infection and had to recover at a nearby outpost, mostly because that was the funniest thing we could think of.

I can understand it being hard as a young 22 year old, because lots of friends will want to go out and drink, meet girls, and just do other things with their free time. I know I did at that age. But it gets easier as you get older an settle down. Different obstacles get in the way, like children and such, but they can be worked around. That's why fortnightly works great for us, it's not taxing on the player, their partner or their family.

My group is all Disneyworkd/Universal actors/singers who also do side gigs so it's gotten harder to schedule. But we try for bi-weekly and make it about 70% of time so I'm greatful.

krypt0nian said:

My group is all Disneyworkd/Universal actors/singers who also do side gigs

Click to expand...

Oh man, they must be good!

Songbird said:

Oh man, they must be good!

Click to expand...

Would be funny if everytime the GM started with "So, you are all on a road to~" and they start singing some happy tune for the travel.

I've been DMing the Carrion Crown Path for my group for a few sessions and it has been a lot of fun for both me and the players. 3 sessions in and they have only been in 3 fights lol

Are there actually people in this thread claiming that 4E is a legitimate Dungeons & Dragons game?

Truly a defence force for everything on GAF.

Bought Mistborn Adventure RPG digital edition (only 11€ or so, so why not?) by Crafty Games. Has anyone tried it?
Dunno if my group will ever try it but... At least it has stuff written by Brandon Sanderson even if i don't get to play it anytime soon.

Xisiqomelir said:

Are there actually people in this thread claiming that 4E is a legitimate Dungeons & Dragons game?

Truly a defence force for everything on GAF.

Click to expand...

Why would you even say this? Troll someplace else.

I like 4th ed. As a casual RPG, its good.

Simple get togethers, minis, good times.

ChiTownBuffalo said:

I like 4th ed. As a casual RPG, its good.

Simple get togethers, minis, good times.

Click to expand...

Definitely the best DnD for low level one shots. Game just sets itself up.

Xisiqomelir said:

Are there actually people in this thread claiming that 4E is a legitimate Dungeons & Dragons game?

Truly a defence force for everything on GAF.

Click to expand...

I'm not a fan of it, but if it didn't exist, I wouldn't be role playing at all.

Yes, there are far better RPGs out there, I'm not going to argue that point because I agree. I think the reliance on a grid is far from good, it bogs the game down and pulls focus away from what makes a good game. It doesn't promote role playing, it doesn't encourage or reward it either. None if these are good things for an experienced or passionate roleplayer.

That said, the things that make it a bad RPG make it attractive to many new players. The heavy tactical combat and titled roles of a party give these new players, who are likely to have played video games before, something to identify with. They see how it works, and it's simple for them to grasp. If there's one thing that can be appreciated about the game, it's that. If they have a good GM who can RP and encourage these new players to do the same, they can easily be led away to other, better games.

Standing back and purely mocking it without appreciating that fact is silly. This hobby needs new blood, without which future generations might not get the opportunity to play what we consider far better games, many that haven't even been created yet.

I can thank D&D 4e, Penny-Arcade, and my current RP group who are passionate gamers for introducing this hobby to me. It's because of them that I have something truly fun to look forward to once a fortnight. It's because of them that I'm in this thread sharing the enjoyment of great games with other cool gamers. It's because of them that I'll be introducing some other people on this forum to games other than D&D 4e to broaden their horizons and share good times with.

D&D 4e is not without it's flaws, but I can't fault it for any of these things.

Xisiqomelir said:

Are there actually people in this thread claiming that 4E is a legitimate Dungeons & Dragons game?

Truly a defence force for everything on GAF.

Click to expand...

It's called 'Dungeons & Dragons' and was created by the copyright holders of that property.

Unless your stance is "anything not designed by TSR is illegitimate", that's about as "legitimate" as it is possible to get.

It's quality is another matter entirely, but you can discuss that without sounding snobbish and factually challenged.

This won't be anything we haven't seen dozens of times before over the last four years, so let's just focus on one broken facet of 4E, the skill challenge system, and how it straitjackets roleplaying.

To borrow the comparison from another entertainment line I've played and loved over many years, let's look at Street Fighter. Here it's pretty clear that one mechanic, parry, is solely responsible for eliminating the majority of the character archetypes, as well as homogenizing interactions between the few remaining character types. I don't think anyone does a better explanation of why 3S isn't really an SF game than Evo 2k11 Marvel champ Viscant:

Why is it stupid to reward randomness and punish the mental game? Then why are you playing the game in the first place. The reason SF3 will never be a real SF is because the mind games are so stupid.

Parry makes every character fight at the same range. It's like...why is there a full screen area in SF3? You can play it in a phone booth, there are only minor range differences and even those differences become negated due to the parry. If you're at a range where you have a distinct advantage, then my parry will ruin your advantage. I can look out for what advantage you have and just parry it at no cost to me. Instead of identifying and utilizing advantages and creating opportunities to use them, in SF3 the game creates your opportunities for you and negates advantages. The skill in setting someone up is gone...the game has done it for you.

There is no O.Sagat in SF3. There is no A3 Rolento in SF3. There is no Guile in SF3. There are no charge characters in SF3. The parry forces all characters to be the same so that they aren't at distinct yomi disadvantages; even Remy and Oro have motion supers.

Basically SF3 is just Street Fighter except the game tells you how to play. And it's all the fault of the parry.

It's no wonder that the people who enjoy SF3 the most are the ones who had the most trouble with mind games in real SF.

Click to expand...

You want an example of different layers of mind games that other games have that 3s can't because of the parry? All right. Let's say we're playing ST. Blanka vs. Vega (ironically, both of these characters couldn't exist in 3s anyways), both characters have charged meter. Blanka has a small lead, about 10%. There are about 30 seconds left in the match. Let's say in this situation, Blanka is walking forward and Vega reacts to that with jab roll. Blanka blocks and this pushes him about 3/4 screen from the corner. Vega does low jab xx KKK. If Blanka jumps forward or walks forward I do super and he's about 80/20 going to eat it and most of the 20 he's going to eat claw swipe. If he hops back, I do super to the far wall to break his charge and he's about 85/15 to eat the super and again most of the 15 he's going to eat claw swipe. If you do ball, I have a charge built up and will flip kick combo you. If he sits still, I can slide and push him back towards the corner in which case I'm going to corner guard him and he really has little shot at the match from this position since all my throw ticks are now in play and his reversal (blanka ball) becomes unsafe.
Now, I wrote this scenario carefully. There is a very critical mistake Blanka made in this scenario. Do you see what it was? What could he have done in this situation to avoid a very very bad position? Failing that and this played out the way it did anyways, what is your move?

This is an example of a multi-layered mind game. I did a move (jab roll) to set up a scenario many moves in advance taking into account all factors including position, time, health, meter to hopefully set up a scenario where I'd have a good chance to win the fight. Now in a situation with parry, none of this is available because Blanka could parry the low jab. If you know Vega's character design, the only high move that could reach Blanka from that position after a claw roll is a low claw poke or stand fierce. You could "guess" low and react block to high (and even if your reactions are awful and you get hit, you're still slightly leading). A multi-level game involving position is basically useless due to the parry (and this is presuming you didn't parry the jab claw roll in the first place).

Click to expand...

It's pretty easy to see how the skill challenge mechanic then causes heavy grief in a great proportion of your typical encounters.

The Basics
To deal with a skill challenge, the player characters
make skill checks to accumulate a number of success-
ful skill uses before they rack up too many failures and
end the encounter.
Example: The PCs seek a temple in dense jungle.
Achieving six successes means they find their way.
Accruing three failures before achieving the successes,
however, indicates that they get themselves hopelessly
lost in the wilderness.

Click to expand...

Running a Skill
Challenge
Begin by describing the situation and defining the
challenge. Running the challenge itself is not all that
different from running a combat encounter (see Chap-
ter 3). You describe the environment, listen to the
players’ responses, let them make their skill checks,
and narrate the results. The skill challenge description
outlines the skills that are useful for the challenge and
the results of using them.
Roll initiative to establish an order of play for the
skill challenge. If the skill challenge is part of a combat
encounter, work the challenge into the order just as
you do the monsters.
In a skill challenge encounter, every player charac-
ter must make skill checks to contribute to the success
or failure of the encounter. Characters must make a
check on their turn using one of the identified primary
skills (usually with a moderate DC) or they must use
a different skill, if they can come up with a way to
use it to contribute to the challenge (with a hard DC).
A secondary skill can be used only once by a single
character in any given skill challenge. They can also
decide, if appropriate, to cooperate with another char-
acter (see “Group Skill Checks,” below)

Click to expand...

Every single bolded point is garbage, but absolutely the worst are the ordered initiative and the mandatory "contribution". Forcing ordered participation can easily result in a high-initiative character botching the challenge for a group if he lands failures before the rest of the party accrues successes. Not even combat is this restricted in 4e, since in any combat you could easily disengage a monster, retreat, and remove yourself as an active participant.

It is of course, any group's prerogative to immediately houserule this into a sensible system by throwing it out and replacing it with functional 3.x skill ranks or 2E AD&D NWPs, but this is the only edition of the game where the entire noncombat system has to be disposed of wholesale to be made playable.

So that's one aspect. I could write about the weirdness of the ADEU power system applied across every class, the source of the ubiquitous "tabletop MMO"/"World of Dungeons and Dragons" complaint, but you can read about that here instead, or a dozen different other places instead. I could talk about how overpowered PCs are relative to monsters even at very early levels, but you can look at the matchup between a 3.x/PF Lvl 1 PC to this orc, who can easily OHKO if it wins initiative, or the equivalent 4E matchup, which is a walk for the PC even with multiple orcs. I could talk about the dearth of meaningful and engaging campaign settings, particularly in the Planes, but that's been done too.

In any case, the whole discussion is moot. 5E/DDN will probably drop around 2014, making 4E's tenure the shortest of any of the editions (assuming one treats 3.5 as an extension of 3.0). I hope WotC's designers try to make a better game, and I will give it a fair go as I usually do with new editions (I have a Lvl 15 and a Lvl 12 4E character in LFR), but if they don't there's always my own 2E game or any of the many Pathfinder games around town.

On a different note,

Eclipse Phase seems totally awesome. An innovative futuristic setting, with an available set of high-quality, downloadable pdf rulebooks with functioning indexes and gorgeous art for absolutely free. It's certainly not short of critical acclaim, either. I really want to give this a shot some time. Anyone played it in a live session?

We like 4 for our entirely first timer group, where we focus mostly on roleplaying, but 4 gives us a nice easy enough system to plugin for battles when required. But of course we have plenty of our own house rules and play it pretty loose and fun.

Apologies for the wall of text but here is a overview of our second pathfinder session;

Session 2:
The party ventured into the old smuggler tunnels beneath the warehouse district. The adventurers discovered that the goblins themselves had come under stack whilst in the tunnels and this was likely the reason their attack and ended in chaos and confusion (it was more akin to a panicked flight through the town). The players soon came under attack from foul goblin mutants. They had grown large and fierce with horn and claw protruding from open wounds in their bodies. Vicious close quarter combat broke out after the party planned to use a natural narrow tunnel as a bottle neck. Rendan the ranger caught their foes attention with a well placed arrow to the rib cage of one of the beasts. High pitched screeching rang out though the tunnels and combat was joined. Trig the Gnome took centre stage as he allowed himself to draw the attention of tow of the creatures, his small size giving him a good advantage in the cramped tunnels. Cha’ka used his Orcish heritage to stare down one of the beasts which was clearly shaken as it joined the melee. An inappropriate Quip from the rogue Silence about how Cha’ka had actually succeeded in intimidating the beast broke the tension. The spawn were quickly put to the sword. The final blow came from Rendan with a critical shot through one of the creature’s eyes.
The adventurer’s then began a more cautious search of the tunnels. Silence used his abilities to discern a secret door which would bypass a barricaded doorway and allow the party quick access into the next rooms. Though the party mused it was perhaps the most pointless secret door should the other door not have been barricaded, poor architectural design there...
A magical shrine that conferred blessings from the Ocean was found beyond as well as a crossbow bolt to Trig as he sauntered a little too far ahead and came under attack from the surviving goblins. Combat was short as many of the little creatures fled into another room. The next room was mostly flooded from sea water that seeped in through a collapsed natural archway that ships were perhaps sailed into. Upon a small island stood the remnants of the goblins lead by Quick Fox. Negotiations got off to a bad start as Rendan once again hit the mark with an arrow that flew over the flooded chamber to the small island the goblins were holed up upon. Trig was mocked for not wanting to get his feet wet mounting an aquatic assault and Silence blended into the shadows to watch event unfold. The goblins again tried to surrender and were able to speak with Cha’ka using an Orcish dialect. Quick Fox revealed his goblin tribe had been exiled from the rest of the tribes for urging them to raise banners with a sorceress named Sil. She had brought word of a kingdom arising in the North that would reward the Goblins aiding them as mercenaries. The goblins had also brought a substance that Sil had introduced to them but the results were nothing like Sil had told them. The mutated goblins had turned on their own and the plan had broken down. Quck Fox and a few of his kind had been sealed in the tunnels by fleeing goblins and he had been forced to barricade himself within in the hopes of surviving. The party decided to send word to the monk’s of the redeemer who Cha’ka was a member of. They would escort the goblins for holding until the party were done with the tunnels and could involve Bars and the town guard.
The party then scoured the rest of the tunnels. Finding a strange black door carved with ships upon an ocean and beneath the waves tentacle horrors lay in wait. A carving upon the door was deciphered by Silence to be an old tongue that stated’ those who dream will unlock the way ‘. Much time was spent here pondering what to do. A nearby tattered and faded note alluded to something being sealed beyond named ‘the bone coast devil’ by the smuggler’s who once used these tunnels. Eventually the party thought sleeping in front of the door may give answers especially as dreams were mentioned. This was indeed the correct thing to do. Silence dreamt of a door and once he had unlocked it the door back in the real world was now open.
Beyond laid dark chambers with looted chests. Somebody had left here many years ago and in a hurry. The chamber beyond the door housed an ornate statue. It depicted one of the merfolk, a female. She stood hands outstretched in front of a huge natural opening; blue energy crackled from her hands and eyes to form a shield of energy blocking the opening. Trig stepped too close and then jumped back in shock as a huge Xorn crashed against the barrier. Driven insane by long years trapped in the warded magical field the Xorn was now a mindless beast. With some experimaentation the party realised you could walk through the barrier and somehow there was perhaps rules the wards used for what could be held beyond and how. Risking not being able to come back through the brave (crazy?) adventurers stepped through. Oh and quickly dived back after realising this crazed beast was far beyond their abilities.
The party decided to leave the tunnels now and vowed to return to face the Xorn one day in the future. Silence added they should claim the tunnels as their own base now.
The party then met with Bars and some of the monks who had been holding the goblins. Quick Fox was willing to give the location of Sil and the remaining exiled goblins of his trial. They were holed up in a place named Reef Claw ruins. Bars commented that he had heard of this place. It was the site of a set of ruins. The civilisation is was from was unknown but it was largely given a wide berth due to the treacherous currents of the ocean on one side and the goblin tribes on the other. Once again Bars asked the party as temporary deputies to confront this sorceress Sil and find out exactly what was going on. Quick Fox and his goblins were then hauled off to the dungeons.
The party then found themselves with a little down time and headed to the three arrows inn for a drink and a rest. Trig found out his catastrophic attempts at field surgery had not killed Milos the inn keep. Trig then spoke with the others about them helping with tracking the man named Trask who had killed his brother and father and made off with an artefact known as the ‘god in the stone’ a number of years ago. Trask’s journal had stated he was to meet a scholar named Dethmold (ripped off from witcher 2 but i love the creepy name)here in Odessa’s Stand before he was due to head north. Cha’ka had heard of Dethmold, a scholar suspected of necromancy and forbidden magic but illusive enough to never have anything pinned on him. The scholar lived in a small house nearby and as night drew in the party made their way there. A drunken guard at the home’s gate was the first test but was easily passed with some verbal sparring. Cha’ka then got a bit ahead of himself asking the rogue to unlock the front door after a couple of knocks went unanswered. It was at this point the rogue felt an odd sensation, as if power and knowledge once forgotten to him was suddenly returning. He was able to discern magic sources and felt keenly aware of their locations. Oddly Silence could detect where magical wards and traps had been placed on the house and was able to guide the party in unscathed. Inside was probably the strangest moment in this party’s story yet. A stuffy living room awaited them, piles of tomes and dusty tables filled with scrolls filled much of the space. The oddest thing however was a robed skeleton sat in front of the fire poking the dying embers with a metal rod. It turned and spoke in a bored voice that it regrettably would have to act out a dull procedure its master had enchanted it to carry out should anybody break into the house. That it would have to ask a couple of questions before it attacked. If correctly answered it would remain seated. Cha’ka was particularly incensed over this that a skeleton animated by banned death magic’s was sitting there chatting with them with a care free attitude. The rest of the party stood scratching their heads as Cha’ka entered into a rambling argument with, as he put it, a glorified coat hanger. Eventually questions were asked on obscure dates in history that were answered by Cha’ka who had done some studies on the subject during his time with his order and the party headed upstairs to check the upper floor leaving the skeleton known as Bones to continue idly poking the embers in the fire place. Upstairs it was discovered that Dethmold had lured Trask here to try and claim the stone for himself, the outcome clearly not as intended when Dethmold’s body was found, throat slit. An activated ward trap on the sky light in the attack gave Trask’s escape away but there was no way of following him. This had happened at least a day or two ago.
Trig vowed to continue the search when time permitted and the party then discussed making the three day journey to the reef claw ruins and confronting Sil. The journey on the whole was generally uneventful, strange lights that no one could discern the source were seen on the edges of Thornwood and the party also spend more time than they should trying to scale some cliffs to save time on going around them. Eventually the party arrived on the coast and lashed by cold winds blowing over from the Ghostlands the players observed the ruins beneath them. The splintered ruins of ships covered the beach and hung on the strange mineral spikes that jutted from the ocean.
The party headed down and into the ruins just as a huge goblin warband was spotted heading towards them along the cliffs. Silence staed they had probably an hour here. Just outside sleeping goblin sentries were silently dispatched. Inside however Trig’s stomping brought attention on the party and once again brutal tunnel fighting broke out as the party made its way through the tunnels. Strange murals covered the walls and gave insights into the civilisation that built these tunnels. Trig placed at the front as a meat shield also failed to spot a trap and had a large rock dropped on his head. The session ended after another brutal melee where Silence discovered more strange elemental powers coursing through his veins. From nowhere he was suddenly able to fire electricity from his hands reducing a number of goblins to ash. The session came to a close with Silence downed from a surprise rear attack from the goblins.

Xisiqomelir said:

This won't be anything we haven't seen dozens of times before over the last four years, so let's just focus on one broken facet of 4E, the skill challenge system, and how it straitjackets roleplaying.

*snip*

It is of course, any group's prerogative to immediately houserule this into a sensible system by throwing it out and replacing it with functional 3.x skill ranks or 2E AD&D NWPs, but this is the only edition of the game where the entire noncombat system has to be disposed of wholesale to be made playable.

Click to expand...

My 4e groups do this, sort of. Skill challenges are broken and stupid, and I've never met anyone who likes them. That said, the abstraction of 3.x skill ranks into "trained" and "untrained" I really liked. It was largely what I already did in 3.x, but made into a simpler mechanic. As long as there are skills, there will be skill checks, but the whole skill challenge system has always sounded to me like the sort of thing that was never playtested.

Regardless, to point the finger at 4e and say "this shit is broken" feels odd to me, because every edition of D&D I've yet played (2, 3, 3.5, 4) has been broken as shit, in their own ways. To say that an edition of D&D is less legitimate of a role playing system for a few flaws is silly. Every edition of D&D has been house ruled to hell and back to "fix it", to "mold it to the group", and just generally to make the game run smoother, better, and facilitate role playing. 2e had kit idiocy, 3e had PrC idiocy, 4e has skill challenges. You cut out what you don't like, and leave the rest.

My motto is, and will probably always be, "The onus is on the players". The DM isn't going to tell you how to beat that big boss monster. WotC isn't going to tell you how to persuade the king to help you. The onus is on the players. It's up to their tenacity, their skills (both on the page and at the table), and a few lucky dice rolls to save the world, or whatever they're doing.

My point is that the game is fun, and executes well in most of the arenas it tries to execute in. If you want to hate on it for that, then obviously I can't stop you, but I honestly hoped you were just trolling when you said it's just not a legitimate role playing game. Role Playing has never been about the ruleset.

House rules are totally the way to go with 4e.

Even when I DM Encounters, the rule at my table is that a critical failure will always have dire/hilarious consequences.

I'm leaping headfirst into GMing a campaign using the new Legends of the Wulin book; it's a kung-fu setting with some interesting mechanics. Anyone else have experience with this? Advice?

Evlar said:

I'm leaping headfirst into GMing a campaign using the new Legends of the Wulin book; it's a kung-fu setting with some interesting mechanics. Anyone else have experience with this? Advice?

Click to expand...

I never ran it, but I own the original version of the game (Weapons of the Gods). I'm not sure that my players would have ever bought into the Loresheets. It always seemed a little too crunchy for a wire-fu type game, but I haven't read it in quite a while so I could be mis-remembering.