• Register
  • TOS
  • Privacy
  • @NeoGAF
  • Like

Complicated
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:12 PM)
Complicated's Avatar

Originally Posted by nOoblet16

Halo 5:

1) Does not have as many enemies on screen at a given time as even Destiny 1 (please note the 'at a given time' as it's what makes all the difference)
2) Has half rate animations 10 feet away from player
3) The AI in Destiny is more advanced because it has more enemy variety at any given time with their separate patterns (Vex move different from Hive that move different from Fallen etc), it's basically an advanced version of Bungie's Halo AI which people have said to be better than 343's Halo AI.

What in the fuck am I reading? More enemies on screen? More advanced AI? I must have played a different version of Destiny because my experience was a huge downgrade on both those accounts from Bungie and 343 Halo games.
Yautja_Warrior
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:12 PM)
Yautja_Warrior's Avatar

Originally Posted by MikeHaggar

Does the PS4 Pro version run at native 4K?

That is the question, they have just said 4k but didn't go into detail on native or checkerboarding. Imagine if it was native 4k on Pro, that would really annoy the Scorpio fan boys, I mean the 30fps cap is already annoying some people, who expected 60fps from the new console.

Originally Posted by Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew

Do these CPU limits exist in Scorpio?

Yep, the Pro CPU is 2.1GHz and Scorpio is only 2.3GHz, so only a little bit faster. Not enough of a difference to double the framerate.
Last edited by Yautja_Warrior; 05-19-2017 at 05:16 PM.
CarbonFire
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:13 PM)
CarbonFire's Avatar

Originally Posted by Trup1aya

Which is more a gpu thing, no?

Becides that doesn't explain the lack of 60fps in the 4v4

It's P2P for the multiplayer, THAT explains the limit. At any point, your machine might be tasked with being the host for the game, which puts extra strain on the processor making it harder (or impossible) to hit those 16ms frametimes.
nOoblet16
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:14 PM)
nOoblet16's Avatar

Originally Posted by Kssio_Aug

I have finished Halo 5, palyed some Warzone, and finished Destiny main and TTK campaigns. But I don't remember to see that much more (if any) enemies on screen compared to Halo 5. Warzone is very intense.

The AI in Halo 5 is also not shomething to be ashamed of. In fact, I think Destiny and Halo 5 AI's are both pretty decent compared to what we usually have on the market. In Halo 5 you also have enemies with different behavior together on screen.

That said, I don't think these factors justifies the difference in frame-rate of both games. What I believe may be the key element to that difference is the dynamic resolution, which, in my opinion, is a good solution to keep the 60 frames per second, and I wasn't bothered with it in Halo 5 at any given moment since Xbox isn't that powerful.

Again if the game is CPU bound then dynamic resolution won't increase framerate.

Destiny does have more enemies at a given instance in one fight. Next time you play Warzone I want you to count the number of enemies you fight in a single instance i.e. how many enemies there are in one group (not across the whole map). I can guarantee you it is going to be no where near the 30-40 something that Destiny 1 can have at its peak.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
(05-19-2017, 05:14 PM)
Deadly Cyclone's Avatar
Lot of backseat game devs in here.
Fredrik
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:14 PM)

Originally Posted by Herp Derpington

Destiny 1 plays incredibly smooth at 30fps, I expect this to as well.

Incredibly smooth? Isn't it just like any other 30fps game?
Guess Who
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:14 PM)
Guess Who's Avatar

Originally Posted by nOoblet16

Sarcasm?

I can't tell these days but if you are being serious then fuckin lol ! Not only is it practically impossible it's even impossible in theory.

I can't believe I have to spell it out, but yes, that was sarcasm.
Interfectum
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:15 PM)
Interfectum's Avatar

Originally Posted by Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew

Do these CPU limits exist in Scorpio?

They do but it probably wouldn't matter anyway... Scorpio plays Xbox One games at native 4K. The Xbox One version of Destiny 2 is 30fps, so that's what Scorpio will be regardless.
Scrotum Phillips
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:15 PM)
Scrotum Phillips's Avatar

Originally Posted by Costia

From what i have played Destiny is a co-op game against AI not a PvP one.
Multiplayer in most other games is PvP - so you dont need AI enemies.

What? There's most certainly a PvP mode. Destiny 1 was 6v6. This is 4v4. I certainly enjoyed Crucible in Destiny 1, but there's nothing amazing going on it besides just being a solid PvP mode.

I can't fathom why they couldn't make Destiny 2 PvP 60. It's 4v4 with no AI and likely smallish maps. Especially if the PC does 60 and it's not "breaking" the game. Many games do SP at 30 and MP at 60, shocked Destiny 2 isn't one of them.

PvE at 30 is disappointing, but I can totally see that their explanation probably isn't BS here.
Stallion Dan
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:15 PM)
Stallion Dan's Avatar
So from PS3 to PS4 Pro the jump is 720p>1080p.

PS3 to PS4 Pro...
Xando
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:16 PM)
Xando's Avatar

Originally Posted by Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew

Do these CPU limits exist in Scorpio?

It clocks higher but still has the same shitty jaguar cpu IIRC(?).
Spoo
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:16 PM)
Spoo's Avatar

Originally Posted by nOoblet16

...

I agree with your statement that you have to aim from the start but it also means being ready to heavily sacrifice from the start. With CPU you don't just lose "some things" you lose a lot because the CPUs are weak as is and they are already crawling to get the existing things up and running and yet we have issues with size of world and enemy count etc. I'll also say if you aim for a simulation system then you'll probably not hit 60.

Destiny the way it exists cannot exist on consoles at 60FPS without doing away with the simulation and AI significantly, even if it does a ton of visual sacrifices and looks like ass because visuals again are almost entirely on the GPU not the CPU.

Sorry, I actually edited my original post with further details that are relevant. Basically I just said that I believe in the shift from a PvE sim to a PvP sim, that you are sacrificing things. You're not computing AI, you aren't worried about vehicle physics (unless they are in PvP -- not sure if confirmed or not), basically, you're worried about ragdolls, collision and projectiles. As I said, I think they are giving a completely reasonable case for the PvE side of things, but not the PvP side imo. (And I don't really mind PvE being 30 -- but in a world of games like TF2/CoD/etc being 60 fps in their MP, and the inclination Bungie *should* have to bring PvP to truely competitive, I really want to lobby on the side of them focusing on this for PvP)

Your point about dynamic resolution is a fair one, though.
nOoblet16
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:16 PM)
nOoblet16's Avatar

Originally Posted by Guess Who

I can't believe I have to spell it out, but yes, that was sarcasm.

You do realise the kind of posts you see in GAF in this sort of thread right ? It's not unsurprising that you have to spell it out because people would make even more ridiculous comments than yours while actually being serious.
Raide
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:17 PM)
Raide's Avatar

Originally Posted by Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew

Do these CPU limits exist in Scorpio?

People will say it's just another Jaguar, MS will say it's a heavily modified Jaguar that won't have the same CPU bound issues.

Scorpio could do 60 without an issue, even if it was a variable framerate. Not sure how much Bungie have modified this engine but they are still keeping to baseline PS4/XB1 capabilities.

Not sure MS should be happy about Devs throttling the system because reasons.

I guess we find out about E3!
Trago
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:17 PM)
Trago's Avatar
Man, jaguar's gonna be holding these games back as the gen goes on.

Skimping on CPU wasn't good.
Kaako
Felium Defensor
(05-19-2017, 05:17 PM)
Kaako's Avatar

Originally Posted by Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew

Do these CPU limits exist in Scorpio?

No since it's a custom CPU. Each core is handcrafted by principal AMD engineers.
leeh
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:18 PM)
leeh's Avatar

Originally Posted by Xando

It clocks higher but still has the same shitty jaguar cpu IIRC(?).

Yep. I mean they say customisations but you know its going to be nothing.

There is a hotchips event soon including the Scorpio, so I guess we'll see.
Trup1aya
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:19 PM)

Originally Posted by Stormhammer

have you played destiny? honest question.

i've played halo 5 and played warzones and i don't think it's doing anything more than what i witness in destiny, and looks worse to boot (imo)

I've got about 200hrs in Destiny, yeah.

I mean is the really up for debate? There 24 players in a Warzone map, several dozen enemy AI onscreen at once, there's (at least) 10 different enemy types, each with variants that have different behaviors. Then there are AI and player controlled Land and Air vehicles, all with more detailed physics models than what you see in Destiny.

Yeah halo, looks worse and has a dynamic resolution... but Halo is doing more, and it's an older game than Destiny 2 will be when it launches.

That said, I think i realize the difference is that Halo processes its AI and physics on the server, while Destiny handles all that on a players CPU.

But when you get to the 4v4 that excuse should go out the window.
Last edited by Trup1aya; 05-19-2017 at 05:24 PM.
BiGBoSSMk23
A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
(05-19-2017, 05:19 PM)
BiGBoSSMk23's Avatar
Yeah, right... Because no other FPS out there makes use of physics simulation or destructible environments (Frostbite engine says Hi again).

It's real easy to stroke their dicks on an soft ass interview about how awesome their game is.

Halo 5 is 60fps on a Bone.

You have no excuse, Bungle.
Stormhammer
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:20 PM)
Stormhammer's Avatar

Originally Posted by Complicated

Make the game look worse for competitive modes like every other developer on the planet.

oh damn i didnt realize this was all that needed to be done. i wonder why they never thought of this
Mossybrew
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:21 PM)
Mossybrew's Avatar

Originally Posted by Shikoba

Hmmmm. I don't really get the fuss... Destiny plays really great for a 30fps game. Probably the best console shooter in terms of controller handling and how smooth the gunplay is.

Yeah, it's really a non-issue for me.
JareBear
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:21 PM)
JareBear's Avatar

Originally Posted by Deadly Cyclone

Lot of backseat game devs in here.

Or just informed gamers. Stay frosty, though
KillerMan91
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:21 PM)
KillerMan91's Avatar

Originally Posted by Trago

Man, jaguar's gonna be holding these games back as the gen goes on.

Skimping on CPU wasn't good.

Well regarding of gaffers? yes. Mainstream consumers? They don't give a fuck.
Psychoward
McLovin
(05-19-2017, 05:21 PM)
Psychoward's Avatar

Originally Posted by Stormhammer

oh damn i didnt realize this was all that needed to be done. i wonder why they never thought of this

You say this sarcastically but I mean, yeah? That would have worked. Or ya know, since their (valid) excuse about the cpu for pve doesn't apply to pvp since the areas are much smaller, the player count is much smaller, there's no destruction/physics simulation is much lower, and there isn't any AI they probably wouldn't have even had to adjust the graphics at all.
Last edited by Psychoward; 05-19-2017 at 05:27 PM.
Jaguar Victory
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:22 PM)
Jaguar Victory's Avatar

Originally Posted by nOoblet16

They probably can do Crucible at 60FPS as none of the simulation exists in PvP. It's likely a design decision to not have a split target and a different "feel" between PvP and PvE. Afterall it's one of the reason Bungie is so annoyingly insistent on having weapons work the same way in PvE and PvP despite some people asking for otherwise.


Halo 5:

1) Does not have as many enemies on screen at a given time as even Destiny 1 (please note the 'at a given time' as it's what makes all the difference)

2) Has half rate animations 10 feet away from player
3) The AI in Destiny is more advanced because it has more enemy variety at any given time with their separate patterns (Vex move different from Hive that move different from Fallen etc), it's basically an advanced version of Bungie's Halo AI which people have said to be better than 343's Halo AI.



I don't mind 30fps but your points on Halo are wrong. BTB and Warzone have many more characters on screen with vehicles.

Also the vex are 2 models used over and over again so not Amy different from Halo.
JareBear
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:22 PM)
JareBear's Avatar

Originally Posted by Kaako

No since it's a custom CPU. Each core is handcrafted by principal AMD engineers.

It's a 2.3ghz Jaguar

Pro is a 2.1ghz Jaguar

CPU is still in an issue with Scorpio
Kaako
Felium Defensor
(05-19-2017, 05:23 PM)
Kaako's Avatar

Originally Posted by Rapier

Yeah, right... Because no other FPS out there makes use of physics simulation or destructible environments (Frostbite engine says Hi again).

It's real easy to stroke their dicks on an soft ass interview about how awesome their game is.

Halo 5 is 60fps on a Bone.

You have no excuse, Bungle.

I mean sure they do. They have the perfect excuse:
"We didn't design for 60fps across the board from the beginning of the development cycle."

Originally Posted by JareBear

It's a 2.3ghz Jaguar

Pro is a 2.1ghz Jaguar

CPU is still in an issue with Scorpio

Not if each core is custom handcrafted by principal AMD engineers. There will be no CPU issue with the Scorpio.
Trago
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:23 PM)
Trago's Avatar

Originally Posted by KillerMan91

Well regarding of gaffers? yes. Mainstream consumers? They don't give a fuck.

Yeah probably, but it's still gonna be a problem going forward. Console performance in the latter half of last gen was horrendous.
DrROBschiz
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:25 PM)
DrROBschiz's Avatar
what about this upcoming "new" ps4 everyones whispering about loloolol

Also WTF at least give us the option to run at 60FPS at 1080p

Not everyone wants or needs 4k
AmFreak
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:25 PM)

Originally Posted by scoobs

The Scorpio uses the same CPU, which is why neither of these machines can ever reliably do 60fps in any kind of demanding game. The jaguar is a piece of shit CPU among piece of shit CPUs.

Our only real hope of 60fps glory will be when they drop in an actual CPU into these things.

Not really, Destiny 2 is 30fps because they decided it will be 30fps.
They could have made a Destiny 2 with 60fps, but it would have been a different Destiny 2.
30fps games were also common last gen and the gen before that and so on.
Available power will always be used, but as long as 60fps doesn't become the priority it will be used elsewhere.
If 30fps had a highly negative impact on sales we would be swimming in 60fps games.
In reality the opposite is often true so there is little reason to invest a big chunk of your available power to get to 60fps.
CarbonFire
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:25 PM)
CarbonFire's Avatar

Originally Posted by Trago

Man, jaguar's gonna be holding these games back as the gen goes on.

Skimping on CPU wasn't good.

It's been holding things back almost from the beginning.

Zen will be a revelation when the next gen consoles hit in a couple of years.
JareBear
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:25 PM)
JareBear's Avatar

Originally Posted by Kaako

I mean sure they do. They have the perfect excuse:
"We didn't design for 60fps across the board from the beginning of the development cycle."


Not if each core is custom handcrafted by principal AMD engineers. There will be no CPU issue with the Scorpio.

You're wrong.
Please stop
Kysen
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:25 PM)
Kysen's Avatar

Originally Posted by SirPinkyNose

There must be compromises I guess.
But I don't understand why it can't run 1080p 60fps for PS Pro. Battlefield 1 can do it.

Dedicated servers handle physics and other players replace AI.
KillerMan91
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:26 PM)
KillerMan91's Avatar

Originally Posted by Trago

Yeah probably, but it's still gonna be a problem going forward. Console performance in the latter half of last gen was horrendous.

That will be pretty much always the case. Average performance of PS4 and Xbox One titles this gen have been miles ahead compared to last gen during same timeframe. I mean people complain about 30fps games on consoles but last gen a lot of games couldn't hold even that. Especially open world games.
Mass Appeal
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:26 PM)
Mass Appeal's Avatar

Originally Posted by mcrommert

Absolute nonsense

Real reason... We like shiny graphics



I love Halo 5...it doesn't look nearly as good as destiny 2


Yah that's a ridiculous statement. I have halo 5 and imo Destiny 1 looks better. Destiny 2 looks A LOT better then Halo 5.


Edit: halo 5 multi might be 60fps but most of the maps look like ass plus there is so much more going on in destiny pvp. I just can't take anyone seriously when they say Halo 5 looks good.
Last edited by Mass Appeal; 05-19-2017 at 05:30 PM.
enzo_gt
tagged by Blackace
(05-19-2017, 05:27 PM)
enzo_gt's Avatar
Very reasonable, and a stable framerate always trumps barely and inconsistently hitting 60fps to jack off elitists.
Taliban Stan
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:28 PM)
So for many, Destiny 2 will be so choppy and unresponsive that it's completely unplayable, no?
nynt9
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:29 PM)
nynt9's Avatar

Originally Posted by Kaako

No since it's a custom CPU. Each core is handcrafted by principal AMD engineers.

Originally Posted by Kaako

Not if each core is custom handcrafted by principal AMD engineers. There will be no CPU issue with the Scorpio.

Man, Microsoft PR is so good at getting people.
Last edited by nynt9; 05-19-2017 at 05:32 PM.
chubigans
y'all should be ashamed
(05-19-2017, 05:29 PM)
chubigans's Avatar

Originally Posted by Kaako

No since it's a custom CPU. Each core is handcrafted by principal AMD engineers.

Originally Posted by Kaako

Not if each core is custom handcrafted by principal AMD engineers. There will be no CPU issue with the Scorpio.

uhhhhhhhhhhh
nOoblet16
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:31 PM)
nOoblet16's Avatar

Originally Posted by Spoo

Sorry, I actually edited my original post with further details that are relevant. Basically I just said that I believe in the shift from a PvE sim to a PvP sim, that you are sacrificing things. You're not computing AI, you aren't worried about vehicle physics (unless they are in PvP -- not sure if confirmed or not), basically, you're worried about ragdolls, collision and projectiles. As I said, I think they are giving a completely reasonable case for the PvE side of things, but not the PvP side imo. (And I don't really mind PvE being 30 -- but in a world of games like TF2/CoD/etc being 60 fps in their MP, and the inclination Bungie *should* have to bring PvP to truely competitive, I really want to lobby on the side of them focusing on this for PvP)

Your point about dynamic resolution is a fair one, though.

Yes the can absolutely do Crucible at 60FPS because none of these constraints exist in PvP. But they didn't maybe cause they felt they didn't want a disparity (they don't even want disparity in weapons and abilities). Now that is a developer decision through and through and not technical and we can discuss on whether that decision was right or not. I personally feel it was not and PvP should have been 60FPS. I was never expecting PvE to be 60, but I am a bit disappointed eventhough I'm not surprised that PvP is the same.

Btw they also have this hybrid networking thing going on in PvP where they are constantly changing hosts every minute or so. I don't know how much stress that has on the CPU.
Trup1aya
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:31 PM)

Originally Posted by Trup1aya

Which is more a gpu thing, no?

Besides that doesn't explain the lack of 60fps in the 4v4.

Reading some more posts though, I think I see the reason. In halo5, the physics and AI is handled by the server, whereas in destiny, it's all pvp- So whichever player is chosen for Hosting duties will have some of his CPU compute devoted to those items.

If you have to reserve it for one player, you have to reserve it for all, or else the host would essentially be getting punished

Originally Posted by CarbonFire

It's P2P for the multiplayer, THAT explains the limit. At any point, your machine might be tasked with being the host for the game, which puts extra strain on the processor making it harder (or impossible) to hit those 16ms frametimes.

Yeah you might not have caught my edit, but that's what I've been saying.

I think the big difference is that 343 offloaded many CPU intensive tasks to the server, while Bungie still has us playing p2p.

That's the real travesty here.
therealbigrich
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:33 PM)
Can't wait till someone builds a comparable rig and tried out destiny 2 at 60 fps . Would be nice just to get the option of 1080p uncapped
Fisty
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:34 PM)
Fisty's Avatar
Guys Kaako is joking, ease up

God I really hope Kaako is joking
10k
I am not employed in the video game industry and I was previously banned after posting a bunch of questionable NX rumors I collected by talking to people on Twitter.
(05-19-2017, 05:35 PM)
10k's Avatar

Originally Posted by Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew

Do these CPU limits exist in Scorpio?

If it's still jaguar based, yes. The clock increase might not be enough.
Jaguar Victory
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:35 PM)
Jaguar Victory's Avatar

Originally Posted by nynt9

Man, Microsoft PR is so good at getting people.

Originally Posted by chubigans

uhhhhhhhhhhh

I think you guys are missing the sarcasm.
Tecnniqe
Would die a thousand deaths just for one gun
(05-19-2017, 05:36 PM)
Tecnniqe's Avatar

Originally Posted by Kaako

No since it's a custom CPU. Each core is handcrafted by principal AMD engineers.

Originally Posted by Kaako

I mean sure they do. They have the perfect excuse:
"We didn't design for 60fps across the board from the beginning of the development cycle."


Not if each core is custom handcrafted by principal AMD engineers. There will be no CPU issue with the Scorpio.









lul
nOoblet16
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:36 PM)
nOoblet16's Avatar

Originally Posted by Trup1aya

Yeah you might not have caught my edit, but that's what I've been saying.

I think the big difference is that 343 offloaded many CPU intensive tasks to the server, while Bungie still has us playing p2p.

That's the real travesty here.

You know what? You might be onto something here.

I'm now thinking what if the AI and simulation was done server side ? They probably won't have any of this bottleneck. It'll probably cost a ton of money to maintain servers but as an added benefit we'd have dedicated servers. But I guess it comes down to cost-benefit thing. A few thousand servers vs half a million to a million servers. Halo 5 has Azure to thank for and since it is first party they get to use it for cheap I guess, but unfortunately other platforms don't have this liberty. So either they don't fully in the gaming platform itself or have a similar network set up for both PC and PS4 which means shit ton of money.
Yautja_Warrior
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:37 PM)
Yautja_Warrior's Avatar

Originally Posted by JareBear

It's a 2.3ghz Jaguar

Pro is a 2.1ghz Jaguar

CPU is still in an issue with Scorpio

Yep this.

As much as the fanboys are trying to run damage control, the fact is the CPU is still a 2.3GHz Jaguar, no matter what MS has done to customise it and Destiny seems to be CPU bound, needing a better CPU to run at 60fps.
nynt9
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:37 PM)
nynt9's Avatar

Originally Posted by Jaguar Victory

I think you guys are missing the sarcasm.

Seeing post like this:

Originally Posted by Raide

People will say it's just another Jaguar, MS will say it's a heavily modified Jaguar that won't have the same CPU bound issues.

Scorpio could do 60 without an issue, even if it was a variable framerate. Not sure how much Bungie have modified this engine but they are still keeping to baseline PS4/XB1 capabilities.

Not sure MS should be happy about Devs throttling the system because reasons.

I guess we find out about E3!

And all the crazy scorpio hype, it's not safe to assume every post is trolling. Also, deadpan sarcastic shitposting is still shitposting.
BleedOrange
Member
(05-19-2017, 05:38 PM)
BleedOrange's Avatar

Originally Posted by KainXVIII

Same for Scorpio, i guess

This is one of the dumbest things I've heard in relation to the PS4 Pro. As is a higher resolution wasn't an inherent advantage as well. I'm 100% sure they're just trying to combat the narrative surrounding the CPU power.

Thread Tools