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Reflecting on why Hillary Clinton lost

Glix

Member
She has no charisma and called voters names. Is there really much more to say?

She has less charisma then Trump????

She called more voters more names then Trump???? If thats how this works, no one single disabled person would have voted for him and not one single woman would have voted for him.

They were held to entirely different standards. Even now apparently.
 

Clefargle

Member
I had this on in the background last night and I thought Fareed did a good job of explaining the various reasons that led to Trump's win, including his ability to relate to the working class.

"There's a very important distinction between rich entrepreneurs - people who create companies, make things and employ people - and professionals. People in the working class, or people who voted for Trump, don't mind billionaires, but they mind our bossy professionals: teachers, lawyers, journalists who seem to want to tell them what to do or seem to want to tell them how to act."

I guess it might have something to do with availability? Many of these working class stiffs have little to no interaction with billionaires, but they see them on TV in a somewhat glorified light in a capitalist sense. But they do work for people in middle management, deal with teachers and professors in school or at their kids schools, and beurocrats that nag them for paperwork and filings. So of course they have grudges towards the people they perceive as "keeping them down" and empathize with a rich "successful" person because they think they should/could be that person if they weren't held down by all these snobby pencil pushers that don't even deserve their position. That's how it feels to me.
 
yea, that billionaire that literally has a golden bath tub is just like the average joe working construction.

He's white and pretends to be evangelical by way of the "prosperity gospel"...a.k.a. he's down with white supremacist tribalism and worshipping money and laissez-faire capitalism.
 

Bolivar687

Banned
So Fareed admitted the title was a misleading - the question isnt why Trump won. Theres a great post above breaking down how it came to three states and the margin for error. Theres a whole conversarion with Nate Silver in the show about how the polls were wrong for these swing states, late deciders broke heavily for Trump, and the Comey letter made the race so close that the margin for error took care of the rest.

Fareed's real question was why did Trump even come close? He broke it down to four C's:

Capitalism - the economy is only working foe the top, it's no longer bringing the rest of the country along for the ride as it grows.

Culture - a startling large amount of Trump voters listed the changing society as a big reason, if not the most important reason, as to why they voted for him.

Class - Bill Clinton came into office off the blue collar vote but by the end of his presidency, the Democrats became the party of college educated professionals, which includes Wall Street.

Communication - social media, fake news, Russian disruption have all galvanized voters in ways we never imagined.
 
its really just comes down to the rust belt (and Florida i suppose). Hillary had the votes. They just weren't in the right place. She lost those working class whites and whites w/no degrees, groups that were essential to Obama's victories.

Trump capitalized on that with all his empty rhetoric (Coal is coming back guys! And guess what? It's clean too!!) They didn't care that Trump never relayed an actual plan. They just liked that it sounded like Trump was on their side. (America first!) All of the other problems with Trump (misogyny, racism, etc you know the rest) could bite it because Trump was gonna bring the jobs!!!

Hillary also wanted to help job market and get workers better prepared for the future and also had policy to do so but that message was cluttered up by other message that the white working didn't particularly care about (lgbt rights, mass incarceration, women's rights, anti-discrimination, environmental protection etc etc).

so by comparison, on the surface, it looked too many that Trump was the one to be trusted. because he wrapped himself up in an American flag and harped "jobs, jobs, jobs" "the Mexicans and the Chinese are taking them! No its not the white billionaires that are holding all the money. Not at all. And you can trust me because I'm one of them. the Clinton's are the bad rich people.

Trump (and the right wing media) portrayed Hillary as untrustworthy. and trustworthiness is a huuuuge deal for voters. and the Comey letter was the last bullet of that assault.
 
She wasn't well-liked, which made her a terrible candidate to prop up against another terrible candidate. Anecdotally, everyone I knew who voted for her specifically would say things like, "Lesser of two evils" or "Anything but Trump". I know two friends-of-friends that were true Clinton believers and post election, one remains a true-believer and constantly blames "Bernie-bros" for her loss, the other has flipped, and thinks that Bernie would have won.

Pre-election popularity

Post-election popularity (Just last month)

I mean seriously. Even after all the shit Trump did, people still find her unlikable.



On top of all this as well. Lots of mistakes were made. LOTS. Which tend to get ignored in threads like this.


Definitely am in agreement with this post.
 
"He's just like us" I could retire if I got a dollar everytime I heard that IRL

yea, that billionaire that literally has a golden bath tub is just like the average joe working construction.

Keep in mind that Trump went to pretty poor areas of the country to campaign. Clinton essentially avoided those areas, and campaigned in city centers instead. They're both super wealthy so let's not pretend either of them know what it's like to be poor or even middle-class. However, one is avoiding poor people, and the other is actively talking to them and trying to court them, it sends a pretty clear message. People already feel unheard, and Clinton pretty much ignored those very people.

Example, Trump came to my relatively poor city. Clinton did not.
 

kirblar

Member
its really just comes down to the rust belt (and Florida i suppose). Hillary had the votes. They just weren't in the right place. She lost those working class whites and whites w/no degrees, groups that were essential to Obama's victories.

Trump capitalized on that with all his empty rhetoric (Coal is coming back guys! And guess what? It's clean too!!) They didn't care they Trump never relayed an actual plan. They just liked that it sounded like Trump was on their side. (America first!) All of the other problems with Trump (misogyny, racism, etc you know the rest) could bite it because Trump was gonna bring the jobs!!!

Hillary also wanted to help job market and get workers better prepared for the future and also had policy to do so but that message was cluttered up by other message that the white working didn't particularly care about (lgbt rights, mass incarceration, women's rights, anti-discrimination, environmental protection etc etc).

so by comparison, on the surface, it looked too many that Trump was the one to be trusted. because he wrapped himself up in an American flag and harped "jobs, jobs, jobs" "the Mexicans and the Chinese are taking them! No its not the white billionaires that are holding all the money. Not at all. And you can trust me because I'm one of them. the Clinton's are the bad rich people.
It's very important for people to understand something about 2020- Trump ran as a fake economic populist. The falsehood has been exposed as he's governed as a generic Republican on economics. The lack of a record to attack there was a serious issue trying to fight against him. In 2020 being able to actually make attacks stick from that angle will be huge.
 

Azzanadra

Member
Keep in mind that he went to pretty poor areas of the country to campaign. Clinton essentially avoided those areas, and campaigned in city centers instead. They're both super wealthy, but one is avoiding poor people, and the other is talking to them, it sends a pretty clear message.

Example, Trump came to my relatively poor city. Clinton did not.

This is pretty much it. Every candidate in history has had factors they could not control that could contribute to their loss, you have to look at your controllables, which Hillary clearly didn't.
 

I really admire your blistering super hot analysis, hammering on Hillary's supposed odiousness repeatedly.

Very insightful stuff that hasn't been repeated by 1000s of people before.

The last thing anyone needs to hear is this ephemeral stealth "Hillary is an awful person who hates the poors," that isn't grounded in reality.

SCHIP alone invalidates your argument.

Talking to voters who won't vote for you is useless.

This election was won because it's very hard to beat a racist who promises that he isn't going to cut entitlements.

The same effect won't exist next time around.
Now, it's known he will cut entitlements.
 

Baraka in the White House

2-Terms of Kombat
It frustrates and angers me that the dozen or so fake "scandals" that were manufactured by the GOP and puffed up by the media are usually ignored in Clinton's campaign post mortem.
 

xxracerxx

Don't worry, I'll vouch for them.
I wished she would but I guess if she wants to run against she does not want be on record saying that.

The fuck are you talking about? She is not going to run again, and she has taken blame. You can take blame but also talk about all the other factors that contributed to your loss.
 

Exile20

Member
Capitalism - the economy is only working foe the top, it's no longer bringing the rest of the country along for the ride as it grows.

So then why would you vote for someone who is a billionaire and admitted to taking advantage of the system, wouldn't show taxes and treat his workers and people who he hired to do jobs for him like absolute shit?

The fuck are you talking about? She is not going to run again, and she has taken blame. You can take blame but also talk about all the other factors that contributed to your loss.

Why do you have to be so aggressive? Can you point to where she took the blame?
 
I really admire your blistering super hot analysis, hammering on Hillary's supposed odiousness repeatedly.

No analysis. Just a poll showing what a lot of people feel about Trump and Clinton.

Very insightful stuff that hasn't been repeated by 1000s of people before.

And constantly ignored. We're still talking about factors out of the campaigns control like emails, hacking, etc, but conveniently ignoring other factors that could have been controlled and accounted for, but were not.

The last thing anyone needs to hear is this ephemeral stealth "Hillary is an awful person," that isn't grounded in reality.

Stealth? I never said she's an awful person, implied or outright said. I think your sensitivities to the issue are putting words and meaning where they don't exist. She's an unliked candidate, before and after the election. The polls show this is true. Has nothing to do whether she's a good person or not. If you think people are implying this by bringing up her unpopularity, you're bringing your own personal sensitivities into the matter.

SCHIP alone invalidates your argument.

I have absolutely no idea how or why SCHIP is supposed to invalidate my argument. I'm sure you can point me to a website so I can read up on it instead of actually doing the work in explaining it yourself.

It frustrates and angers me that the dozen or so fake "scandals" that were manufactured by the GOP and puffed up by the media are usually ignored in Clinton's campaign post mortem.

She had the email scandal, but Trump had a lot of literal true scandals going into the election. You really can't blame emails when Trump had audio recordings, lawsuits, sexual harassment, and tons of other scandals working against him. It seemed like every week the GOP was throwing up their hands like it was over because of the trash surrounding Trump.
 

inner-G

Banned
The DNC did it to themselves. If Hillary wants to continue finger-pointing, that's her prerogative but she's not any closer to the truth than she has been since Election Day.
 

kirblar

Member
So then why would you vote for someone who is a billionaire and admitted to taking advantage of the system, wouldn't show taxes and treat his workers and people who he hired to do jobs for him like absolute shit?
Because they're valuing racism over economics. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...p_and_why_obama_voters_defected_to_trump.html (there are two good detailed analyses linked in the article.)

Most populists, according to Drutman, were already Republican voters in the 2012 election, prizing their conservative views on identity over liberal economic policies. A minority, about 28 percent, backed Obama. But four years later, Clinton could only hold on to 6 in 10 of those populist voters who had voted for Obama. Most Democratic defectors were populists, and their views reflect it: They hold strong positive feelings toward Social Security and Medicare, like Obama voters, but are negative toward black people and Muslims, and see themselves as ”in decline."

This is a portrait of the most common Obama-to-Trump voter: a white American who wants government intervention in the economy but holds negative, even prejudiced, views toward racial, ethnic, and religious minorities. In 2012, these voters seemed to value economic liberalism over a white, Christian identity and backed Obama over Romney. By 2016, the reverse was true: Thanks to Trump's campaign, and the events of the preceding years, they valued that identity over economic assistance. In which case, you can draw an easy conclusion about the Clinton campaign—even accounting for factors like misogyny and James Comey's twin interventions, it failed to articulate an economic message strong enough to keep those populists in the fold and left them vulnerable to Trump's identity appeal. You could then make a firm case for the future: To win them back, you need liberal economic populism.

But there's another way to read the data. Usually, voters in the political crosscurrents, like Drutman's populists, have to prioritize one of their chief concerns. That's what happened in 2008 and 2012. Yes, they held negative views toward nonwhites and other groups, but neither John McCain nor Mitt Romney ran on explicit prejudice. Instead, it was a standard left vs. right ideological contest, and a substantial minority of populists sided with Obama because of the economy. That wasn't true of the race with Trump. He tied his racial demagoguery to a liberal-sounding economic message, activating racial resentment while promising jobs, entitlements, and assistance. When Hillary Clinton proposed a $600 billion infrastructure plan, he floated a $1 trillion one. When Clinton pledged help on health care, Trump did the same, promising a cheaper, better system. Untethered from the conservative movement, Trump had space to move left on the economy, and he did just that. For the first time in recent memory, populist voters didn't have to prioritize their values. They could choose liberal economic views and white identity, and they did.

Trump ran by lying his ass off on economics, but was truthful on the racism, and they went right along with him. It worked once (barely) but won't work again b/c he' s governed as a standard R on economics.
 

Rookhelm

Member
hardcore conservatives are being more and more convinced that there's literally nothing worse than a liberal. Combine that with being a Clinton, and the right just hates her so much.
 

Exile20

Member
Because they're valuing racism over economics. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...p_and_why_obama_voters_defected_to_trump.html (there are two good detailed analyses linked in the article.)



Trump ran by lying his ass off on economics, but was truthful on the racism, and they went right along with him. It worked once (barely) but won't work again b/c he' s governed as a standard R on economics.

Trump blamed minorities for whites not having jobs. Blacks sucking up money from hand outs, illegals stealing jobs. It wasn't that they value racism over the economy but that he used racism as to why they don't have jobs.
 

kirblar

Member
Trump blamed minorities for whites not having jobs. Blacks sucking up money from hand outs, illegals stealing jobs. It wasn't that they value racism over the economy but that he used racism as to why they don't have jobs.
He was also giving lip-service to economic populist bullshit like Glass-Steagall (it would have no effect on anything related to the causes of the '08 crash) and other similar policies. He's of course followed through w/ none of them.
 

Joe T.

Member
But she has...

"I'm to blame, but..." isn't very convincing. She needed to just own it, regardless of whether it was right or not to place the blame squarely on her. She would have earned sympathy if that was the case, instead she (and the party as a whole) continues to pin the blame elsewhere. How would you be able to criticize someone that accepted 100% of the blame for something that we can all agree wasn't 100% her doing? You don't. It's unfortunate, but she earned her unpopularity.
 

Neoweee

Member
The DNC did it to themselves. If Hillary wants to continue finger-pointing, that's her prerogative but she's not any closer to the truth than she has been since Election Day.

Specifically what did the DNC do? I want some specifics.

The DNC, or the rotating group of people that are actually part of the DNC at any given moment, rotates so rapidly that they don't really have a giant stake in the election, nor are they the biggest losers of the election.
 
Another good point from the video is that there were still a lot of undecideds a week or two before the election compared to 2012. which was most likely because of the growing "lesser of two evils" narrative

This was the attitude of the majority of bernie or busters and third-party voters (especially Johnson voters)

This narrative/position was perpetuated by the media (CNN being the biggest offender). This was my biggest gripe of the election. Below is that gripe being succinctly described by filmaker Ethan Coen in NYT piece

Thank you for preserving reportorial balance. You balanced Donald Trump’s proposal that the military execute the innocent families of terrorists, against Hillary’s emails. You balanced pot-stirring racist lies about President Obama’s birth, against Hillary’s emails. You balanced a religious test at our borders, torture by our military, jokes about assassination, unfounded claims of a rigged election, boasts about groping and paradoxical threats to sue anyone who confirmed the boasts, against Hillary’s emails. You balanced endorsement of nuclear proliferation, against Hillary’s emails. You balanced tirelessly, indefatigably; you balanced, you balanced, and then you balanced some more. And for that — we thank you.
 

Particle Physicist

between a quark and a baryon
yea, that billionaire that literally has a golden bath tub is just like the average joe working construction.

It's so fucking crazy. I got infuriated watching one of the CNN videos interviewing people in "Trump country" about various things. 'He speaks just like us!' after being questioned about their thoughts on Trump's inappropriate comment to Brigitte Trogneaux.

...

>(
 

Particle Physicist

between a quark and a baryon
Hillary lost because she lost in 3 states she thought were in the bag and didn't bother campaigning that hard in those 3 in the last few weeks -- Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. All states Obama won both times. Trump got pretty much the same numbers as Romney did in all 3 states, however Hillary LOST voters in every state compared to Obama turnout. In every one of those states the margins were tiny.


We can't discount the incredible voter suppression tactics at play in those three key states as well. Has anyone done an analysis on how much those tactics affected Democratic voter turnout?
 
I think the racist were always there for every election. I think racist are always fired up.

Racists were always there, true. But they've never been more enabled and fired up than by Trump. Now all their racism and sexism was OK because Trump didn't like being "Politically correct" either.
 

Exile20

Member
Why self-reflect when we can just dismissively decree that people are stupid?

I know we all say that but it isn't that they are stupid although his biggest base is uneducated white males but they just believed he was the chosen one.

The one to fix everything wrong with Washington
The one to get jobs back
The one to Make America Great Again

I gotta admit, they really know how to come up with slogans. MAGA, DTS, Lock Her Up, etc.

The DNC never had a cheer to rally behind. I mean there was #pussygrabber.
 
It's sad, in hindsight, how much shit he got for that blog.

Similarly, when Nate Silver/538 DARED to give Trump even the slightest chance of winning, they were lambasted on here as being inaccurate and terrible. Everyone moved on to a different pollster who had Clinton all the way.
Anyone who dared to mention that they didn't like Clinton was dogpiled on.
Embarrassing.
I don't go outside of Neogaf for this kind of thing, but I imagine it was very much the same out there.
 

entremet

Member
Terrible candidate. That simple. I like Hilary, but let's face it, she's not someone they Democrats should've put their hopes on.
 

kirblar

Member
Racists were always there, true. But they've never been more enabled and fired up than by Trump. Now all their racism and sexism was OK because Trump didn't like being "Politically correct" either.
Yup. One of the reasons we were pretty sure no hacking was involved w/ actual results was because the rural turnout patterns were showing up all over the map.
 

Exile20

Member
Racists were always there, true. But they've never been more enabled and fired up than by Trump. Now all their racism and sexism was OK because Trump didn't like being "Politically correct" either.

You can vote for Trump or whoever without showing how racist you are. What Trump did embolden them to come out to the public but I think whether it was Trump or not they same racist would have voted but we wouldn't have have seen how how racist they are in public.
 
hardcore conservatives are being more and more convinced that there's literally nothing worse than a liberal. Combine that with being a Clinton, and the right just hates her so much.

You can thank Drudge, Breitbart, and Alex Jones for that. and certain number Trump voters thought Hillary was literally the devil. literally. in the flesh
 

jtb

Banned
There is no such thing as a perfect campaign.

Hillary made bad mistakes before and during the campaign. Hillary was also subject to a near unprecedented level of interference from actors both foreign and domestic.

If the election occurs a week earlier, she's the president. But it didn't. Where that falls within 'why' she lost is up to you.

Similarly, when Nate Silver/538 DARED to give Trump even the slightest chance of winning, they were lambasted on here as being inaccurate and terrible. Everyone moved on to a different pollster who had Clinton all the way.
Anyone who dared to mention that they didn't like Clinton was dogpiled on.
Embarrassing.
I don't go outside of Neogaf for this kind of thing, but I imagine it was very much the same out there.

Nate showed the whole world his ass during the primaries and eagerly torched his credibility at every turn. That was a completely self-inflicted wound.
 

Let's face it: Our biggest problem here isn't Trump – it's Hillary. She is hugely unpopular — nearly 70% of all voters think she is untrustworthy and dishonest. She represents the old way of politics, not really believing in anything other than what can get you elected. That's why she fights against gays getting married one moment, and the next she's officiating a gay marriage. Young women are among her biggest detractors, which has to hurt considering it's the sacrifices and the battles that Hillary and other women of her generation endured so that this younger generation would never have to be told by the Barbara Bushes of the world that they should just shut up and go bake some cookies. But the kids don't like her, and not a day goes by that a millennial doesn't tell me they aren't voting for her.

Voted for her because of the alternative, but Moore was dead fucking on in everything he said.
 

I still remember when he went on Real Time and talked about how he feared Trump would win due to what he described as the Brexit strategy (which is also in that blog). The crowd booed and Bill told them that they need to hear what he's saying because it could happen. But people just dismissed it as both of them just fear mongering. In the end he won due to exactly what Michael described.
 
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