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Marvel's The Avengers |OT| (Dir. Joss Whedon) [Spoilers unmarked]

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Iron Man is still the best Marvel film so far.

I would say

IM > IM2 (which I still find disappointing, but has some nice moments) > The Avengers > Thor > Cap > Hulk (Ang Lee) > Incredible Hulk

At least somebody agrees that IM2 isn't that terrible. It gets shit on the most. I really like it.
 
I like when comic book movies are true to comic books as a medium; meaning: I don't give a rat's ass about the story in a comic book movie because by and large mainstream superhero comics have laughably contrived story-lines. I'm ok with that. Superhero team books are excuses for having huge action spreads with 10 or so characters and explosions everywhere mixed with team/team and team/villain banter. I want those things out of my comic book movies. I will watch other films based around other artistic mediums for rich character development and plot.

TLDR: Sculli's review is as close to what I want in The Avengers as I can imagine. If this movie was TDK it would have failed at being an Avengers movie.

Yep. You're going to love it. This is why I said Whedon was the right man for the job. The movie knows exactly what it is and for the most part delivers.
 
At least somebody agrees that IM2 isn't that terrible. It gets shit on the most. I really like it.

Yeah it's fine. It just really suffers from a bad main villain and these kinds of movies are really villain driven, because heroes for all their personality quirks still tend to be heroes in the end.
 
Yeah it's fine. It just really suffers from a bad main villain and these kinds of movies are really villain driven, because heroes for all their personality quirks still tend to be heroes in the end.

The villain was weak. Found myself preferring Stark's struggle with mortality to his battle with Whiplash.
 
Sam Rockwell was hilarious in Iron Man 2.

That's about the most positive thing I can say about that movie. It should have been so much better than it turned out to be.
 
Can someone who has seen this movie answer this?:

Does the Captain America character come off as silly as he did in his own movie?

Or does he have a more somber attitude over the fact that everyone he knew and loved is dead and he's now stuck in an unfamiliar world?
 
As someone who, for the most part, found Iron Man 2 to be fairly enjoyable, the biggest mistake that movie made was War Machine. I felt they could have gone about introducing that character in a lot more spectacular fashion- at least we got a few good action scenes with him and Iron Man.

I'd like a Secret Avengers film just to see more War Machine- who knows, maybe Cheadle has better chemistry with Chris Evans than he does RDJ.
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
Yeah it's fine. It just really suffers from a bad main villain and these kinds of movies are really villain driven, because heroes for all their personality quirks still tend to be heroes in the end.

The problem with Iron Man is that his rogue's gallery kind of sucks.

By which I mean there are like two Iron Man specific villains, and the rest are just sort of Avengers villains that he fights because he's in the Avengers. Also the ones he does have all ALSO wear a suit, or are more of organizations, like AIM.

Of course his traditional foil is the Mandarin, and Marvel apparently doesn't want to touch that.
 

Slayven

Member
As someone who, for the most part, found Iron Man 2 to be fairly enjoyable, the biggest mistake that movie made was War Machine. I felt they could have gone about introducing that character in a lot more spectacular fashion- at least we got a few good action scenes with him and Iron Man.

I'd like a Secret Avengers film just to see more War Machine- who knows, maybe Cheadle has better chemistry with Chris Evans than he does RDJ.

A Secret Avengers film made from the first 3 issues would be legendary.

The problem with Iron Man is that his rogue's gallery kind of sucks.

Ironman has a great rogue's gallery. It tends to be a bit too techno based, but understandable. Wonder Woman, Superman, and Aquaman has sucky rogues.
 

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
At least somebody agrees that IM2 isn't that terrible. It gets shit on the most. I really like it.
It's my favorite Marvel universe movie! Although I can admit its flaws and there are plenty, Iron Man is my favorite of the Avengers and I thought they nailed him both in and out of the suit(s) in IM2 from start to finish, while doing a surprisingly admirable job with War Machine, whom I also love. Whiplash remained fairly weak in execution, but I dug the "fuck it, let's just have IM and WM own a bunch of drones" attitude and he still beats Iron Monger for me in terms of having anything like an interesting motivation. I love Jeff Bridges as much as the next guy but once he got into "super"villain territory he just bored the crap out of me.

Yeah it's fine. It just really suffers from a bad main villain and these kinds of movies are really villain driven, because heroes for all their personality quirks still tend to be heroes in the end.
Funny, I don't find that the Iron Man movies were driven by the villains at ALL. If they were I think they'd have sucked. They're so much more about Tony Stark's various internal struggles and his just barely managing to be a true hero at the end of the day.

The villain was weak. Found myself preferring Stark's struggle with mortality to his battle with Whiplash.
Same :D
 
The problem with Iron Man is that his rogue's gallery kind of sucks.

It's good for a comic but some of those characters just don't translate well on screen and it can quickly turn into a scenario of machine vs. machine without any substance.

I loved the end of IM2 but it didn't provide that much substance. Still, good comic book action.
 
Wow, I have 41 posts here? Movie still doesn't come out for another week and a half here in the States. Might have to bail out to avoid spoilers. I have trouble not clicking on spoiler tags.

I'm thinking I might post my thoughts on the Marvel movies as I rewatch them though.
 

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
The problem with Iron Man is that his rogue's gallery kind of sucks.

By which I mean there are like two Iron Man specific villains, and the rest are just sort of Avengers villains that he fights because he's in the Avengers. Also the ones he does have all ALSO wear a suit, or are more of organizations, like AIM.

Of course his traditional foil is the Mandarin, and Marvel apparently doesn't want to touch that.
There are more than two, but you are right on the money with this. He doesn't have a strong rogues' gallery at all. The most powerful Iron Man stories in my mind, in fact, always involve a primary conflict with an intangible force (i.e. Demon in a Bottle, Extremis) on top of any smash-bang conflicts with a traditional "villain."
 
Typing from my phone which is missing half the physical keyboard, so bear with me here. Good to see Sculli's impressions. Think it's a safe bet I'm going to enjoy the hell out of the movie.
 
Way I see it, Iron Man is famous more for his stories than his villains. When I think of, say, Spider-Man comics, I'll think of Venom, Doc-Ock, Green Goblin. Iron Man comics make me think of the plot arcs throughout the years. Extremis. Demon in a Bottle. Armor Wars. His rogue's gallery isn't all that, but the stories are memorable.

Also, Iron Man is a worldly guy. Spidey's main haunt is NYC, but Iron Man operates with a wider scope, and so it's only natural most of his foes will be enemies of S.H.I.E.L.D. and the likes as well.
 
There are more than two, but you are right on the money with this. He doesn't have a strong rogues' gallery at all. The most powerful Iron Man stories in my mind, in fact, always involve a primary conflict with an intangible force (i.e. Demon in a Bottle, Extremis) on top of any smash-bang conflicts with a traditional "villain."

That's part of the reason why I like Iron Man 2. A big chunk of the middle of the film is him shorting his own shit out, dealing with his imminent death, and a healthy bit of drinking for those "Demon in a Bottle" fans. I was surprised to hear so many complain about that stuff being boring. There's some good character development in that film.
 

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
Way I see it, Iron Man is famous more for his stories than his villains. When I think of, say, Spider-Man comics, I'll think of Venom, Doc-Ock, Green Goblin. Iron Man comics make me think of the plot arcs throughout the years. Extremis. Demon in a Bottle. Armor Wars. His rogue's gallery isn't all that, but the stories are memorable.

Also, Iron Man is a worldly guy. Spidey's main haunt is NYC, but Iron Man operates with a wider scope, and so it's only natural most of his foes will be enemies of S.H.I.E.L.D. and the likes as well.
Haha! You made essentially the same point and mentioned the same first two plot arcs that I did. Outstanding.

edit: Spider-Man and Batman really sort of have a monopoly on the truly great villains, don't they? I think the X-Men have some of the most interesting antagonists, but almost all of them are more-than or not-quite supervillains.
 
That's part of the reason why I like Iron Man 2. A big chunk of the middle of the film is him shorting his own shit out, dealing with his imminent death, and a healthy bit of drinking for those "Demon in a Bottle" fans. I was surprised to hear so many complain about that stuff being boring. There's some good character development in that film.

I think the problem was that there was some silly stuff interspersed throughout it. The birthday party was cringe-worthy stuff for me. Once John Slattery had his spiel though, I was back into the movie.
 
I think the problem was that there was some silly stuff interspersed throughout it. The birthday party was cringe-worthy stuff for me. Once John Slattery had his spiel though, I was back into the movie.

I liked the birthday party scene. Stark is completely over-the-edge in that moment. He's angry, frightened and acting out like a spoiled little shit. I didn't mind that at all. The daddy issues were a little too on the button but it's what fueled the turn around for the character in the final act.
 

apana

Member
Iron Man is still the best Marvel film so far.

I would say

IM > IM2 (which I still find disappointing, but has some nice moments) > The Avengers > Thor > Cap > Hulk (Ang Lee) > Incredible Hulk

C'mon now, the bolded makes me angry. Also Captain America had some problems but worse than Thor? I can't really see it.
 
I liked the birthday party scene. Stark is completely over-the-edge in that moment. He's angry, frightened and acting out like a spoiled little shit. I didn't mind that at all. The daddy issues were a little too on the button but it's what fueled the turn around for the character in the final act.

Just going off memory here, but I feel like IM2 is very weird tonally. Rockwell's character (which is hilarious) just seems misplaced. The birthday party scene clashes with the poisoning arch. Rourke is all over the place (I vont my bord!). Cheadle is there, reading his lines from the script. Happy Hogan doing more than he ahould be. SHIELD scenes don't help, but I also don't think they're a big problem like so many.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the movie. It's just got too much going on.
 
Funny, I don't find that the Iron Man movies were driven by the villains at ALL. If they were I think they'd have sucked. They're so much more about Tony Stark's various internal struggles and his just barely managing to be a true hero at the end of the day.

But it's a moot point. Iron Man/Tony Stark IS a hero. His struggles separate him from other boy-scout heroes like Cap, but he's still a hero. He will always make the right choice in the end, despite the struggles. Even if they made a Hank Pym movie, it would be the same thing. Yes he creates doomsday devices that lead to the death of his friends, yes he beats his wife, but in the end he's still a hero.

I'm glad you enjoyed IM2 based on Tony Stark's struggles alone, but in a movie about heroes the villain at least has to be interesting enough to pose a true moral as well as mortal dilemma for the hero.
 
Just going off memory here, but I feel like IM2 is very weird tonally. Rockwell's character (which is hilarious) just seems misplaced. The birthday party scene clashes with the poisoning arch. Rourke is all over the place (I vont my bord!). Cheadle is there, reading his lines from the script. Happy Hogan doing more than he ahould be. SHIELD scenes don't help, but I also don't think they're a big problem like so many.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the movie. It's just got too much going on.

I just watched it recently and it is odd tonally. I thought the BD party complimented the poisoning arc. After developing the worlds most advanced battle suit and saving the world, he finds himself completely helpless to save himself. He's also watching the rest of the world continue around him as if nothing is wrong. That's his fault of course because he doesn't want to tell anyone. He's scared to death of admitting it to others because it makes it a lot more real. And as we know, Stark hates reality and responsibility for that matter. He's always trying to cheat it, escape it so that he can maintain his own delusional fantasy.

In an act of selfishness, he lashes out at the b-day party. After saving the rest of the world and being completely shit on for it by the government, he decided to give himself one last birthday for the ages.

I thought it worked.
 

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
Just going off memory here, but I feel like IM2 is very weird tonally. Rockwell's character (which is hilarious) just seems misplaced. The birthday party scene clashes with the poisoning arch. Rourke is all over the place (I vont my bord!). Cheadle is there, reading his lines from the script. Happy Hogan doing more than he ahould be. SHIELD scenes don't help, but I also don't think they're a big problem like so many.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the movie. It's just got too much going on.
Totally don't agree with the bolded despite agreeing with many of your other points.

The birthday scene is sort of the climax of that subplot. There's even a little scene with ScarJo just to hit you over the head with it ("What would you do if you knew this was your last birthday?"). The fight with War Machine was my favorite action scene in the movie because (on top of the cool holy-shit-we're-wrecking-a-billion-dollar-house destruction) both characters have clear motivations and are on roughly equal footing for believable reasons (Rhodey's just finding his legs in the suit, Stark's plastered). I like that whole sequence a lot except for the shooting the glass wall and having the crowd react all WOOOOOOO. I would've been fucking terrified at that moment.
 
Totally don't agree with the bolded despite agreeing with many of your other points.

The birthday scene is sort of the climax of that subplot. There's even a little scene with ScarJo just to hit you over the head with it ("What would you do if you knew this was your last birthday?"). The fight with War Machine was my favorite action scene in the movie because (on top of the cool holy-shit-we're-wrecking-a-billion-dollar-house destruction) both characters have clear motivations and are on roughly equal footing for believable reasons (Rhodey's just finding his legs in the suit, Stark's plastered). I like that whole sequence a lot except for the shooting the glass wall and having the crowd react all WOOOOOOO. I would've been fucking terrified at that moment.

I would have bailed out when Stark started shooting bottles.
 

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
I would have bailed out when Stark started shooting bottles.
True, but if they had started with that and then he accidentally shot out a wall I would've found it more believable. I would have bought a bunch drunk girls with loose morals wanting to hook up with Iron Man just thinking that was the coolest thing ever and then getting freaked that he wasn't quite in control. The scene as it stands is like... "Oh holy shit Iron Man is a total loose cannon right now capable of killing us all! Let's get him to show off!!"
 

Zzoram

Member
It was fun.

The narrative itself is absolute garbage, but once you realize it is all just an excuse to get these fanboy service (self-service in Whedon's case) scenes on screen, you just sort of roll with it.

And those scenes are where this movie lives. Of course, if you're expecting any serious drama in these scenes, you've come to the wrong movie. Whedon makes no attempt to deviate from his 'let's lighten the mood' mentality, as he is having the characters crack jokes at every single turn.

You don't feel invested in the film in terms of caring about any of the stakes at hand, just as Whedon doesn't really seem invested in the story enough to come up with anything than the most convenient and ridiculous get out of jail free cards to bail out of each narrative conflict.

But like I said, it doesn't matter. You're there to watch these character banter with one another. And it's fun to watch. Like any comedy, I'm not sure how good it will be on rewatch once you know all the jokes, but there is some very satisfying humor and chemistry between the main players - good and bad, without spoiling anything.

The Avengers is Oceans 12 with ILM pumping a whole bunch of CG destruction into the background.

It sometimes loses it's focus and in typical Whedon style, gravitates toward less interesting side characters that are paper thin. There is one part that made me roll my eyes.

Lots of cheese. A lot of the bureau/SHIELD ops dialogue is just bad.

Hulk does absolutely own the film, though without spoiling anything, I will say that I was disappointed that Whedon seemed to contradict our introduction to The Hulk, as if he wasn't sure how to write around him without changing his character.

Action was very decent. I could see Paramount looking to Whedon for the next Transdongers after Bay.

I enjoyed it enough, but probably won't revisit until it hits TV, so that the jokes might hit again.

In the end, it's an ILM showcase with some nice comedy running throughout that doesn't take itself seriously. It's fun, but doesn't come anywhere near the top-tier superhero films.

Out of curiousity, what do you consider the top-tier so I have a sense of comparison?
 
I'm glad you enjoyed IM2 based on Tony Stark's struggles alone, but in a movie about heroes the villain at least has to be interesting enough to pose a true moral as well as mortal dilemma for the hero.

I agree that Whiplash himself is a pretty weak villain in the movie, but he and Hammer both do exactly this for Tony in Iron Man 2.

The message kinda just carries over from the first film and isn't quite as strong, but Tony comes into this movie thinking that all the troubles he created as Tony Stark are completely manageable now that he's Iron Man. By announcing himself as a superhero, he thinks there won't be another Obediah Stane or Iron Monger. Justin Hammer and Whiplash are exactly that and it almost costs him his life, his company, and his best friend to understand it.

I understand some of the complaints about this movie. The foundations are there and I don't think the Avengers stuff takes away from the movie itself when you're watching it (as far as screentime goes), but it's clear that the development of Tony's story in this film had to share much of its time with getting Fury, Romanoff and the rest of SHIELD in there. I would have really liked to see the movie come out with all the potential it had, but it's not a trainwreck like most people make it out to be.
 

mjc

Member
I don't think IM2 was a trainwreck either. Actually, I think I enjoyed it more than Captain America. Like you guys said already, I liked the personal demons that Stark had to get through while simultaneously dealing with Whiplash and Hammer. I could have done without the extreme inclusion of Shield....but what can you do?
 
I don't think IM2 was a trainwreck either. Actually, I think I enjoyed it more than Captain America. Like you guys said already, I liked the personal demons that Stark had to get through while simultaneously dealing with Whiplash and Hammer. I could have done without the extreme inclusion of Shield....but what can you do?

They aren't that involved unless you're counting ScarJo's screen time. Members of shield other than Black Widow are on screen time no more than ten minutes from what I saw and I just watched it on Saturday morning.

Black Widow isn't very good though. ScarJo basically just walks through the film like a zombie reading her lines. No emotion whatsoever.
 

RichardAM

Kwanzaagator
Black Widow isn't very good though. ScarJo basically just walks through the film like a zombie reading her lines. No emotion whatsoever.

I know it's cool to hate on both her and Hawkeye, but I want to see loads of them in the film.

Along with Nick Fury and Coulson i'm hoping for a much bigger screen presence for them all, simply because they've just been shoehorned for so long. I hope it's not the case here too.

RE Ironman 2 generally, I liked it quite a bit. It did all feel a bit rushed though, especially as far as Justin Hammer/Whiplash as villains were concerned.
 
I know it's cool to hate on both her and Hawkeye, but I want to see loads of them in the film.

Along with Nick Fury and Coulson i'm hoping for a much bigger screen presence for them all, simply because they've just been shoehorned for so long. I hope it's not the case here too.

RE Ironman 2 generally, I liked it quite a bit. It did all feel a bit rushed though, especially as far as Justin Hammer/Whiplash as villains were concerned.

I want to see Black Widow and Hawkeye work in The Avengers as well. I hope Whedon worked some magic to make ScarJo give a damn about the character. I'm not sure she knew what was going on in IM2.

Does Hawkeye have any witty wise cracks in the film?

No details, just tell me if he does or not.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
I think Oceans 12 with superheroes is the perfect way to describe The Avengers. No real interesting plot, no real dramatic stakes, convenient narrative turns abound to the point where nothing really matters, but if you like the characters, watching them all interact with one another is like going out on the town with the boys, only to finish the night reminiscing and laughing about that time Damon fucked up the meeting in the cafe by trying to speaking gibberish.

Oh and I should point out that I saw it in glorious 2D, because fuck that converted shit.

But Ocean's Twelve is more than just dumb fun, it's also a cleverly self-reflexive film about filmmaking.
 

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
Tragically not Marvel Universe, which is too bad considering he could to a degree neutralize Thor, Captain America and Iron Man singlehandedly
KuGsj.gif
 
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