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jviggy43
Member
(09-26-2017, 08:24 AM)
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Don't you all know that when you protest you have to appeal to your oppressors? God.
excelsiorlef
Member
(09-26-2017, 08:25 AM)
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Originally Posted by tapedeck

Now you’re just being daft, but I’ll respond..

You’re basically choosing ‘keeping the message pure’..(or something).. over attempting progress. It’s attitudes like this that keep things as divided as they are.

Nah it's attitudes like yours that demand we tailor protests to what upsets those we are protesting against the least... that causes division.
Jmanunknown
Member
(09-26-2017, 08:25 AM)

Originally Posted by tapedeck

Now youíre just being daft, but Iíll respond..

Youíre basically choosing Ďkeeping the message pureí..(or something).. over attempting progress. Itís attitudes like this that keep things as divided as they are.

Nope racism, bigotry, sexism, and hatred is what keeps america as divided as the country is.
tapedeck
Do I win a prize for talking about my penis on the Internet???
(09-26-2017, 08:26 AM)
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Originally Posted by cdyhybrid

It's these attitudes and not the racism?

Racist attitudes tend to be absolute, illogical, and def to opposing opinions, thatís my point.
excelsiorlef
Member
(09-26-2017, 08:27 AM)
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Originally Posted by tapedeck

Racist attitudes tend to be absolute, illogical, and def to opposing opinions, thatís my point.

What?

That wasn't in your stated point at all.
tapedeck
Do I win a prize for talking about my penis on the Internet???
(09-26-2017, 08:28 AM)
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Originally Posted by excelsiorlef

Nah it's attitudes like yours that demand we tailor protests to what upsets those we are protesting against the least... that causes division.

Thatís not what Iím doing at all Iím simply trying to find the best way towards progress.
excelsiorlef
Member
(09-26-2017, 08:30 AM)
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Originally Posted by tapedeck

That’s not what I’m doing at all I’m simply trying to find the best way towards progress.

You said they shouldn't protest during the anthem because that upsets the right wingers.

You don't protest hoping to avoid making people mad.

Kneeling before means nothing... Do you believe Jerry Jones gives a shit about the things Kaep was kneeling for? What is kneeling before an anthem even mean? There's no vehicle there... the anthem is part of the symbolism. Kneeling before is to say that kneeling during actually is disrespectful.

This is barely above that the Steelers did.
cdyhybrid
(09-26-2017, 08:30 AM)
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Originally Posted by tapedeck

Racist attitudes tend to be absolute, illogical, and def to opposing opinions, thatís my point.

Then why are you bitching about anthem protests being supposedly divisive?

Are these people absolute in their beliefs and illogical or not?
Mr. X
Member
(09-26-2017, 08:30 AM)
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Originally Posted by tapedeck

Thatís not what Iím doing at all Iím simply trying to find the best way towards progress.

And that's to buckle to make right wing racist like our protest choice?

Hey remember when MLK asked those racist which bridge to march or which place to sit in?
Colocho
Member
(09-26-2017, 08:31 AM)
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Kneeling before the anthem is as good as kneeling in your own house, it's useless. If Kaepernick had kneeled before the anthem, then no one would have given a fuck about it, since he did it during, it sends the message that he doesn't tolerate the shit that the anthem stands for.

The Cowboys are compromising with the racists so that they don't get offended as much. That's bullshit right there.
tapedeck
Do I win a prize for talking about my penis on the Internet???
(09-26-2017, 08:32 AM)
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Originally Posted by excelsiorlef

You said they shouldn't protest during the anthem because that upsets the right wingers.

You don't protest hoping to avoid making people mad.

No.

Go re-read my post if you must. My point is sending a message effectively.
excelsiorlef
Member
(09-26-2017, 08:33 AM)
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Originally Posted by tapedeck

No.

Go re-read my post if you must. My point is sending a message effectively.

What evidence do you have that they were sending Kaep's message?

You literally said kneeling during was failing because people were mad so they should kneel at a different time so people won't be mad.

That's what you said.


And when I said nah you accused me of being a purity tester who is part of the problem that is dividing everyone so it's pretty laugh out loud that you now come back saying you care so much about the message.
Mr. X
Member
(09-26-2017, 08:34 AM)
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Originally Posted by tapedeck

No.

Go re-read my post if you must. My point is sending a message effectively.

Kneeling during anthem worked, look at how this has blown up. Look how many people are now steering this the original point of the kneeling, trying to stop this rude to the flag rhetoric.
tapedeck
Do I win a prize for talking about my penis on the Internet???
(09-26-2017, 08:35 AM)
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Originally Posted by cdyhybrid

Then why are you bitching about anthem protests being supposedly divisive?

I never Ďbitchedí about anything.

Are these people absolute in their beliefs and illogical or not?

They are yes, which is why itís harder to send the message.
cdyhybrid
(09-26-2017, 08:35 AM)
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Originally Posted by tapedeck

I never Ďbitchedí about anything.


They are yes, which is why itís harder to send the message.

If they are absolute in their beliefs then no message will reach them.

Which is it?
Mael
Member
(09-26-2017, 08:41 AM)
Good to know that the protests are spreading,
that racists are getting mad is at least a sign that they're reacting and have to think for a second why this is done.
Couldn't give less of a shit about Nana Ruth's nephew who wants to ignore people dying for no reasons.
tapedeck
Do I win a prize for talking about my penis on the Internet???
(09-26-2017, 08:42 AM)
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Originally Posted by excelsiorlef

What evidence do you have that they were sending Kaep's message?

You literally said kneeling during was failing because people were mad so they should kneel at a different time so people won't be mad.

That's what you said.

No..so the message might be heard..if itís not then itís a failure but we donít know how itís being interpreted yet.

And when I said nah you accused me of being a purity tester who is part of the problem that is dividing everyone so it's pretty laugh out loud that you now come back saying you care so much about the message.

Well I apologize if I offended you but Iím trying to keep up with all these responses.
aspiegamer
Member
(09-26-2017, 08:49 AM)
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The Pentagon should demand refunds from the NFL for that "salute to service" crap they pay for every year-- Clearly the events aren't needed to hammer the point home. It takes a special type of dedicated racism to be willing to give up a hobby you've followed often your entire life and use as little more than an excuse to binge drink because your team decided to stay in the locker room during the national anthem once.

One irony of this is that, while making the idea of kneeling for the anthem being about maybe a tiny bit more than racial issues now, it's doing an even better job of exposing racists than before.
excelsiorlef
Member
(09-26-2017, 08:50 AM)
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Originally Posted by tapedeck

No..so the message might be heard..if it’s not then it’s a failure but we don’t know how it’s being interpreted yet.


Well I apologize if I offended you but I’m trying to keep up with all these responses.

Why would I be "offended"? I know I'm not part of the divide so any accusations that I am don't "offend me" because they're bold faced ridiculous.

“Our players wanted to make a statement about unity and we wanted to make a statement about equality,” Jones said at a postgame news conference. “They were very much aware that statement, when made or when attempted to be made in and a part of the recognition of our flag, can not only lead to criticism but also controversy.

“It was real easy for everybody in our organization to see that the message of unity, the message of equality was getting, if you will, pushed aside or diminished by the controversy. We even had the circumstances that it was being made into a controversy.”

Jones said the Cowboys alerted the NFL to their plan.

“We planned and it was executed according to plan that we would go out and kneel in prayer, or kneel and basically stand and make the statement regarding the need for unity and the need for equality,” the 74-year-old owner said. “Then we immediately turned around, stood up, walked over to the sideline.

“And that big American flag, it came down that field, and we all stood toes-out on the field and recognized and respected the American flag and the national anthem. So it was a coordinated effort. It was planned and it was executed at the same time that our team was getting ready to play this Cardinal team. I’m very proud of it.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ng-for-anthem/

Read that statement from Jones and tell me if it says anything. There is zero of anything that Kaep was fighting for.

This is becoming It Gets Better levels of cooption and PR

And this further obfuscates as it again it reinforces that those who are kneeling during the anthem are on some level disrespecting the flag and the troops and all that jazz. Unity would have been we all kneel before and those who wish to rise for the anthem can do so and those who wish to further to point can stay kneeling.
Acerac
Alyssa's Significant Otter
(09-26-2017, 08:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by Mael

that racists are getting mad is at least a sign that they're reacting and have to think for a second why this is done.

I think you're giving them far too much credit. Pretty sure the common conclusion they will reach is that anyone who did this is an "ungrateful thug" that doesn't respect the country and leave it at that. As far as they can see those who are protesting are just acting like children.

Why would they question their beliefs? I'd imagine most will just double down.
btrboyev
Member
(09-26-2017, 08:53 AM)
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Heís taking more shots on John McCain today on Twitter too.
Grug
Member
(09-26-2017, 08:56 AM)
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Originally Posted by excelsiorlef

Read that statement from Jones and tell me if it says anything. There is zero of anything that Kaep was fighting for.


Depends, what it does definitely do is completely leave no wiggle room for people trying to connect protesting racial equality to disrespecting the flag or the military.

That's good or bad depending on your angle. If your angle is that the only effective way to show solidarity for Kaepernick is to completely mirror his protest (which is a valid position), then you aren't going to like that statement.

But if you are looking for a good case study to throw in the face of conservatives who persist with the false equivalence of "protesting during a game" = "spitting on the flag and the military" then Jones have given you one there.
Mael
Member
(09-26-2017, 08:58 AM)

Originally Posted by Acerac

I think you're giving them far too much credit. Pretty sure the common conclusion they will reach is that anyone who did this is an "ungrateful thug" that doesn't respect the country and leave it at that. As far as they can see those who are protesting are just acting like children.

Why would they question their beliefs? I'd imagine most will just double down.

One day someone they like will kneel for it and they'll try to rationalize why they can't put the guy in the "ungrateful thug" box or they'll just keep being pieces of shit.
It's basically people being mad at sport people doing a moment of silence or something in the end.
Sure some idiot is mad that he can't get his match 1min earlier but we don't need to cater to these idiots.
And seriously people who are mad at this would probably side with the white supremacist anyway so fuck them.
excelsiorlef
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(09-26-2017, 08:59 AM)
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Originally Posted by Grug

Depends, what it does definitely do is completely leave no wiggle room for people trying to connect protesting racial equality to disrespecting the flag or the military.

That's good or bad depending on your angle. If your angle is that the only effective way to show solidarity for Kaepernick is to completely mirror his protest (which is a valid position), then you aren't going to like that statement.

But if you are looking for a good case study to throw in the face of conservatives who persist with the false equivalence of "protesting during a game" = "spitting on the flag and the military" then Jones have given you one there.

Not really because no one kneeled during the anthem... thus reinforcing the idea that doing so is disrespectful/wrong/etc...

And nothing in that statement even mentions police brutality or you know black people.
BlackSalad
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(09-26-2017, 09:05 AM)
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This whole thing is very difficult to explain to children, like really hard.
excelsiorlef
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(09-26-2017, 09:08 AM)
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Originally Posted by BlackSalad

This whole thing is very difficult to explain to children, like really hard.

The anthem and flag while they represent many of the great things America can be it also represents many of the horrible things and kneeling is to acknowledge those horrible things in hopes of keep working towards fixing them.

One sentence.
Acerac
Alyssa's Significant Otter
(09-26-2017, 09:20 AM)
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Originally Posted by Mael

One day someone they like will kneel for it and they'll try to rationalize why they can't put the guy in the "ungrateful thug" box or they'll just keep being pieces of shit.
It's basically people being mad at sport people doing a moment of silence or something in the end.
Sure some idiot is mad that he can't get his match 1min earlier but we don't need to cater to these idiots.
And seriously people who are mad at this would probably side with the white supremacist anyway so fuck them.

No doubt, they're upset because their racist ideals are being challenged. I'm just warning you that if you have hope for any large amount of them to have a moment of realization you're in for disappointment.

Originally Posted by BlackSalad

This whole thing is very difficult to explain to children, like really hard.

Some people love our country but doesn't like some things it does.

Others (who also love the country) think that somebody who has gotten so much from living in the US shouldn't question how it is run.

Seems pretty easy to break down?
EdibleKnife
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(09-26-2017, 09:34 AM)
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Originally Posted by Acerac

No doubt, they're upset because their racist ideals are being challenged. I'm just warning you that if you have hope for any large amount of them to have a moment of realization you're in for disappointment.

I guarantee that very few black people, activists, or even Kaepernick himself believe in the idea that a giant switch will be flipped throughout all of racist white America when it's historically known that our protest style doesn't matter because white America continually likes to paint any effort by black people fighting for their civil rights negatively and resist them fervently; even violently.

Originally Posted by Washington Post


It's never been about the method of the message but the message itself that pisses them off. That's why no one buys the "You should have protested at this time, in this place and with these specific words to get your point across". The book Post-Traumatic Slave Disorder by Dr. Joy DeGruy touches on the idea that white America does have its own pathology, its own engraved behavior instilled from centuries of black oppression, that results in not only the perpetuation of racist institutions but the eagerness to assume the worst about black assembly, solidarity, and efforts toward equality. It's not something black people are supposed to fix by finding out the right formula so that racists don't get angry but something white America itself has to reckon with on its own with the efforts of the small percentage of white Americans who the message has reached.

Washington Post: A & B
VOX
Mael
Member
(09-26-2017, 09:36 AM)

Originally Posted by Acerac

No doubt, they're upset because their racist ideals are being challenged. I'm just warning you that if you have hope for any large amount of them to have a moment of realization you're in for disappointment.

Who's asking for that?
It's the same kinds of idiots who were perfectly ok with Jim Crows and random terrorist groups that targeted minorities.
Fuck them, at least everyone should let them know how despicable everyone think they are INCLUDING people they think are heroes.
Flo_Evans
Banned
(09-26-2017, 09:40 AM)
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Itís times like these Iím glad Iím not really invested in patriotism/nationalism or most sports. We donít even have an NFL team to be angry/happy with anymore! Whew!
jwk94
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(09-26-2017, 09:47 AM)
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Not sure if it's been posted yet, but the two protagonists from the X Files (sully and molder?? Idk their names) posted a picture of them taking the knee too.

https://twitter.com/GillianA/status/912497054454370305
Hesemonni
Junior Member
(09-26-2017, 09:56 AM)
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Originally Posted by jwk94

Not sure if it's been posted yet, but the two protagonists from the X Files (sully and molder?? Idk their names) posted a picture of them taking the knee too.

https://twitter.com/GillianA/status/912497054454370305

*swoons*
Acerac
Alyssa's Significant Otter
(09-26-2017, 09:59 AM)
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Originally Posted by EdibleKnife

I guarantee that very few black people, activists, or even Kaepernick himself believe in the idea that a giant switch will be flipped throughout all of racist white America when it's historically known that our protest style doesn't matter because white America continually likes to paint any effort by black people fighting for their civil rights negatively and resist them fervently; even violently.



It's never been about the method of the message but the message itself that pisses them off. That's why no one buys the "You should have protested at this time, in this place and with these specific words to get your point across". The book Post-Traumatic Slave Disorder by Dr. Joy DeGruy touches on the idea that white America does have its own pathology, its own engraved behavior instilled from centuries of black oppression, that results in not only the perpetuation of racist institutions but the eagerness to assume the worst about black assembly, solidarity, and efforts toward equality. It's not something black people are supposed to fix by finding out the right formula so that racists don't get angry but something white America itself has to reckon with on its own with the efforts of the small percentage of white Americans who the message has reached.

Washington Post: A & B
VOX

No doubt. The whole reason I love this situation is because it puts everything in to stark contrast for anyone who wishes to engage in critical thinking. Apologies if this comes off as presumptuous, but I just don't believe that racists dominate that category, hence my skepticism that many of them will be reached.

Originally Posted by Mael

Who's asking for that?
It's the same kinds of idiots who were perfectly ok with Jim Crows and random terrorist groups that targeted minorities.
Fuck them, at least everyone should let them know how despicable everyone think they are INCLUDING people they think are heroes.

When I read that you said they would rationalize the situation I misinterpreted that as you meaning they'd have a moment of reflection towards their actions. Apologies for the miscue there.
Blizzard
Banned
(09-26-2017, 10:02 AM)
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Originally Posted by jwk94

Not sure if it's been posted yet, but the two protagonists from the X Files (sully and molder?? Idk their names) posted a picture of them taking the knee too.

https://twitter.com/GillianA/status/912497054454370305

Mulder and Scully, and that's really cool.
jwk94
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(09-26-2017, 10:06 AM)
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Originally Posted by Blizzard

Mulder and Scully, and that's really cool.

I was close lol. Thanks!
SolidSnakex
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(09-26-2017, 10:16 AM)
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So, Pat Tillman's wife isn't particularly happy with Trump using his image to push his agenda

"As a football player and soldier, Pat inspired countless Americans to unify," Marie Tillman told CNN. "It is my hope that his memory should always remind people that we must come together. Pat's service, along with that of every man and woman's service, should never be politicized in a way that divides us. We are too great of a country for that. Those that serve fight for the American ideals of freedom, justice and democracy. They and their families know the cost of that fight. I know the very personal costs in a way I feel acutely every day."

Pat Tillman stepped away from the NFL while in his playing prime to join the U.S. Army in 2002 and was killed in action in 2004.

"The very action of self expression and the freedom to speak from one's heart -- no matter those views -- is what Pat and so many other Americans have given their lives for," Marie Tillman said. "Even if they didn't always agree with those views. It is my sincere hope that our leaders both understand and learn from the lessons of Pat's life and death, and also those of so many other brave Americans."

On Monday, President Donald Trump retweeted a Twitter account that invoked the memory of Pat Tillman and included the hashtags "StandForOurAnthem" and "BoycottNFL."

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2...ot-politicized
Raylan Targaryen
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(09-26-2017, 10:40 AM)
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Originally Posted by UraMallas

I mean. I'm a white dude from the midwest so maybe it isn't my place to say this but isn't this pretty fucking disingenuous? Takes it away from the anthem and stands up with the entire team as a white billionaire who has no fucking idea what Kaep and minorities face. It's like he totally coopted this to be about him and his ilk because the President hurt his feefees.

Thatís exactly what his whole thing has been about?

Everyone that was kneeling on Sunday did it because their feelings were hurt besides maybe the Seahawks.
Grug
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(09-26-2017, 11:04 AM)
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Pat Tillman's family about to get Trump's very special brand of Gold Star treatment.
iapetus
Scary Euro Man
(09-26-2017, 11:14 AM)
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I know a lot of people are arguing (quite rightly to some extent) that the actions taken by some of the teams and players are moving away from the original point of the protest.

But.

When I look at the NFL social media feeds I follow, I'm still seeing the Trump-supporting racist factions getting really upset by it. And when people (other fans, veterans, a wide cross section of the country and beyond) are responding to them, they're not just making vague noises about unity, they're talking about the actual issues that this all started with. So even if the teams and players aren't making the right point in the right way, it's still leading to the real issues being talked about front and center, and the bullshit of the don't-disrespect-the-flag crowd being called out. Which can't be a bad thing.
FinaruDensetsu
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(09-26-2017, 11:18 AM)
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Originally Posted by Randolph Freelander

But what they *say* is it's direspecting the flag / soldiers / whatev

Obviously, everybody knows what that actually mean. They think it's actually pretty OK to indiscriminately kill black people.

Yeah I understand. I'm just saying the people "saying" that are doing so disingenuously and deep down know what their actual intentions and meanings are. They aren't going to admit it though no matter how transparent they are. Even if everyone points out to them "Hey you guys are obviously not objecting to the anthem because they did it before the anthem", they'll just ignore it all and continue saying what they are saying.
OrangeGrayBlue
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(09-26-2017, 11:22 AM)
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Originally Posted by Colocho

Kneeling before the anthem is as good as kneeling in your own house, it's useless. If Kaepernick had kneeled before the anthem, then no one would have given a fuck about it, since he did it during, it sends the message that he doesn't tolerate the shit that the anthem stands for.

The Cowboys are compromising with the racists so that they don't get offended as much. That's bullshit right there.

You're right that Kaepernick would not have gotten the same attention if he knelt before the anthem, but at this point I think the act of taking a knee (especially on a football field) has taken such a symbolic meaning that it isn't quite as important when someone does it. For instance, there's that viral pic of some white veteran deciding to #TakeaKnee along with some other athletes and celebrities and I doubt those pictures were even taken during the anthem playing, nor would it really matter. The stance itself carries symbolism behind it at this point.
excelsiorlef
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(09-26-2017, 11:23 AM)
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Originally Posted by OrangeGrayBlue

You're right that Kaepernick would not have gotten the same attention if he knelt before the anthem, but at this point I think the act of taking a knee (especially on a football field) has taken such a symbolic meaning that it isn't quite as important when someone does it. For instance, there's that viral pic of some white veteran deciding to #TakeaKnee along with some other athletes and celebrities and I doubt those pictures were even taken during the anthem playing, nor would it really matter. The stance itself carries symbolism behind it at this point.

It's both. Doing it during the anthem still counts for something.

If you go out of your way to avoid doing it doing the anthem that is making a statement unto itself and not a productive one.

As in there's a difference between Duchovny and Anderson taking a knee in solidarity far away from the field, same with that vet because it's clear they are doing it in solidarity with those taking a knee during the anthem...

It becomes less clear what it means when you do what the Cowboys did and release a mostly meaningless press release and then go out of your way to make sure you're not kneeling for the anthem.
OrangeGrayBlue
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(09-26-2017, 11:27 AM)
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Originally Posted by excelsiorlef

It's both. Doing it during the anthem still counts for something.

If you go out of your way to avoid doing it doing the anthem that is making a statement unto itself and not a productive one.

I agree, I'm not sure Jerry Jones recognized that his gesture would still get the same kind of conservative backlash as if he had knelt during the anthem, but you're right that actually doing it during the song is the strongest way to make a statement and I hope any players who continue protesting don't stray from that fact.
excelsiorlef
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(09-26-2017, 11:31 AM)
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Originally Posted by OrangeGrayBlue

I agree, I'm not sure Jerry Jones recognized that his gesture would still get the same kind of conservative backlash as if he had knelt during the anthem, but you're right that actually doing it during the song is the strongest way to make a statement and I hope any players who continue protesting don't stray from that fact.

I don't for a second think Jones gives much of two shits about the issues Kaep cares about, this is cheap PR of "protesting the right way" (btw without actually protesting anything...again that press release is empty) ... His press release makes no reference to police brutality or even black people... but it does take extra care to note how as soon as the flag appeared they all stood and honoured it and the anthem...

The message there is clear... we don't disrespect the flag/anthem/vets/whatever the fuck unlike those other guys....

Now that conservatives are still going to get mad just speaks volumes to how fucked up they are... but that in itself should not in any way speak positively to how Jones and the Cowboys went at it.
OrangeGrayBlue
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(09-26-2017, 12:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by excelsiorlef

I don't for a second think Jones gives much of two shits about the issues Kaep cares about, this is cheap PR of "protesting the right way" (btw without actually protesting anything...again that press release is empty) ... His press release makes no reference to police brutality or even black people... but it does take extra care to note how as soon as the flag appeared they all stood and honoured it and the anthem...

The message there is clear... we don't disrespect the flag/anthem/vets/whatever the fuck unlike those other guys....

Now that conservatives are still going to get mad just speaks volumes to how fucked up they are... but that in itself should not in any way speak positively to how Jones and the Cowboys went at it.

I'm with you on all of that. Jerry doesn't seem to be on the same page with the initial cause of this protest and his point may very well have been some "this is the right way to protest" condescending nonsense but I'm still glad his gesture inadvertently exposed the "disrespecting the flag" rhetoric for the thinly veiled scapegoat it is, even if I can't credit them for intentionally setting out to prove that point.


That said, I think Shannon Sharpe's commentary is pretty spot on: it shouldn't have taken the president insulting NFL players directly to get them on board, and it's kinda shameful that a sport-wide protest kinda-sorta aligned with Kaepernick's original cause only came about after the president shouted profanities at them. Now that this moment has passed, it's going to be very telling to see how the protests continue going forward.
excelsiorlef
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(09-26-2017, 12:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by OrangeGrayBlue

I'm with you on all of that. Jerry doesn't seem to be on the same page with the initial cause of this protest and his point may very well have been some "this is the right way to protest" condescending nonsense but I'm still glad his gesture inadvertently exposed the "disrespecting the flag" rhetoric for the thinly veiled scapegoat it is, even if I can't credit them for intentionally setting out to prove that point.


That said, I think Shannon Sharpe's commentary is pretty spot on: it shouldn't have taken the president insulting NFL players directly to get them on board, and it's kinda shameful that a sport-wide protest kinda-sorta aligned with Kaepernick's original cause only came about after the president shouted profanities at them. Now that this moment has passed, it's going to be very telling to see how the protests continue going forward.

It shouldn't have and I'd caution that it still hasn't, they're on board with kneeling as a nebulous act but all the issues have fallen to the wayside a lot and will likely continue to.

This whole thing has potential to completely erase just why Kaep was kneeling for... oh and Kaep will probably still be blackballed
Slayer-33
Liverpool-2
(09-26-2017, 12:36 PM)
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F'ing fixated child
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
(09-26-2017, 12:38 PM)
HP_Wuvcraft's Avatar
.... the president doesn't know how television works.

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