Support NeoGAF

TheVoidDragon · Jun 17, 2017

ClosingADoor said:
I always find these reactions so sad. So you didn't agree with a decision made by a publisher, it does not make the game any worse, so why all the bad reviews. Don't buy the game if you don't think it isn't worth the money. These are entertainment products and there is plenty of choice.

I see people giving bad reviews that have put literally thousands of hours into the game. And you are telling me a small price increase suddenly makes the game not worth the money? Get over it.

Seriously? You think it's bad that people aren't just accepting a choice they disagree with and are trying to inform others of the problem? When it comes to Steam Reviews people tend to factor in things beyond the games themselves. Leaving bad reviews like this is a way to alert other potential customers of poor business practices that shouldn't be supported, it's the easiest way to really get large amounts of customers (those who don't look at gaming forums and similar places) and perhaps even the developers themselves to realize people aren't happy with this.

If you just ignore it and don't buy the game, then there's no way for them or other people to know what exactly it is that put you off it in the first place. If you did nothing then there's no way to tell if you just didn't like the look of the game, or there was something you actually disagreed with and didn't want to support.

You're missing the point entirely, this isn't to do with the games themselves. If there was a way to leave reviews for the publishers then i expect people would just do that instead.

Oxymoron · Jun 17, 2017

Stumpokapow said:
It is a little weird to do them retroactively; typically you set a fixed price in each currency at the time of release and update as new products release. But for Paradox I guess a lot of their income is passive catalogue income so they felt the need to do it retroactively.

It's not that unusual. The App Store does its currency adjustments retroactively/universally: publishers set a price in USD, and then Apple decides "0.99 USD is 0.99 CAD", or "0.99 USD is 1.29 CAD", and when they switch the price over, a five year old 2.99 app goes from 2.99 CAD to 3.89 CAD overnight, with no input from the dev.

Given that it's so easy to gift Steam games across borders, it's easy to see why they'd want to change prices retroactively to avoid arbitrage, which would just be plain lost money for them.

kadotsu · Jun 17, 2017

Great timing to adjust for currency just before a Steam sale so your discounts seem higher.

ClosingADoor · Jun 17, 2017

hardcastlemccormick said:
Game reviews seem to be the only way to respond negatively to a publisher/developer decision in a way that they hear you.

It may not be the correct channel, but I'm glad there's an effective one at all.

Adnor said:
It's one of the few ways consumers have to actually be heard. It worked for Arkham Knight, it may work for nonsensical price hikes in third world countries.

But these people have already bought the game. Stop buying them and the DLC if you disagree with the price. Just seems a bit petty. And inflation, exchange rates and purchasing power are real things, so I don't get why publishers shouldn't adjust their pricing to it. Maybe doing it on already released products feels a bit strange, but Paradox isn't exactly bringing out a new EU or HOI every year.

Or make your voice heard through other means, a review should be about the game, not surrounding issues that you might disagree with.

Mavromatis said:
I think the review should include the price as a factor too. A good game with a too high price can easily get a lower rating since the price change the expectations. That's why cheaper games can get better reviews, they are good enough to meet the expectation of that price point.

Sure, but we now have people who literally put over a thousand hours in the game pressing the "not recommended" button. That's just stupid.

Eila · Jun 17, 2017

Oxymoron said:
Given that it's so easy to gift Steam games across borders, it's easy to see why they'd want to change prices retroactively to avoid arbitrage, which would just be plain lost money for them.

Yeah about that... They changed the getting cheap games from a russian reseller years and years ago, and recently they made it hard as heck to gift anything from someone in another country really.

Adnor · Jun 17, 2017

Oxymoron said:
Given that it's so easy to gift Steam games across borders, it's easy to see why they'd want to change prices retroactively to avoid arbitrage, which would just be plain lost money for them.

Valve changed the gift system a while ago, now you can't give games to another country if the prices differs much.

KiraFA37 · Jun 17, 2017

Vinter said:
Yes they do. That is how they can continue to support the games. I understand that some people dislike this business model but they wouldn't make a lot of money otherwise. Their games aren't something that has a huge market.

To add in in what Red Arremer said, Paradox games are usually in the top sellers in steam, EU4 alone has over 1 million copies sold. Stellaris has been a top seller for a couple of weeks after release, so no you cannot just say they do not have a large or sell niche games anymore. Addtionally they have had a very succesfull IPO over a year ago and have been expanding.

ArjanN · Jun 17, 2017

Vigilant Walrus said:
I've said this before in previous outrage/scandals threads; Changing reviews in large numbers is an incredible interesting way for people to voice their opinion. Steam reviews matter in ways that are more significant than we had 5-10 years ago, when usually what would make news was if 4chan had flooded metacritic Dragon Age 2 reviews.
*snip*.

I think it's kind a lame way of lashing out though, as in practice it mostly just shits up Steam user reviews because someone has an axe to grind about something that usually doesn't even have anything to do with the actual quality of the game.

Mr.Deadshot · Jun 17, 2017

Shit move from Paradox but the games don't get worse because of that. Those "reviews" should be removed. Complain in their forum, per E-Mail, Twitter or whatever is hot nowadays. Reviews should be about the game itself.

TheVoidDragon · Jun 17, 2017

ClosingADoor said:
Sure, but we now have people who literally put over a thousand hours in the game pressing the "not recommended" button. That's just stupid.

The problem with this is what, exactly? If someone has played that much of a game and then decides not to recommend it, that suggests there's a pretty good reason for that change of mind.

hardcastlemccormick · Jun 17, 2017

ClosingADoor said:
But these people have already bought the game. Stop buying them and the DLC if you disagree with the price. Just seems a bit petty. And inflation, exchange rates and purchasing power are real things, so I don't get why publishers shouldn't adjust their pricing to it. Maybe doing it on already released products feels a bit strange, but Paradox isn't exactly bringing out a new EU or HOI every year.

Or you could stop buying the games and explain why. Through the review system.

Why do we always have people who start complaining about customers expressing their discontent in every thread like this? What's so bad about consumers having a voice, and using it?

I also don't understand why the Steam reviews are suddenly a place with purity that needs to be maintained. Half of them are jokes.

Mavromatis · Jun 17, 2017

ClosingADoor said:
Sure, but we now have people who literally put over a thousand hours in the game pressing the "not recommended" button. That's just stupid.

Why? I can't recommend EU4 to a friend at this price point with all the DLCs. It would be recruiting to a pyramid scheme. I couldn't buy most of the DLCs myself despite having tons of gameplay hours on it.

MUnited83 · Jun 17, 2017

The backlash is well deserved. Some of the increases are ridiculous and in no way relate to actual improvement in purchasing power in recent years in the countries affected.

Oxymoron · Jun 17, 2017

Eila said:
Yeah about that... They changed the getting cheap games from a russian reseller years and years ago, and recently they made it hard as heck to gift anything from someone in another country really.

My bad. Still, can't imagine it's that hard for someone in North America to get a Russian Steam account and buy games in rubles.

Mavromatis said:
Why? I can't recommend EU4 to a friend at this price point with all the DLCs. It would be recruiting to a pyramid scheme. I couldn't buy most of the DLCs myself despite having tons of gameplay hours on it.

Pyramid scheme???

ClosingADoor · Jun 17, 2017

TheVoidDragon said:
The problem with this is what, exactly? If someone has played that much of a game and then decides not to recommend it, that suggests there's a pretty good reason for that change of mind.

Game was bought for $40, played for 1000 hours. That is 0,04 an hour. Game is now $60. That is 0.06 an hour. And suddenly these people think the game is too expensive. I just think it is an overreaction and a stupid way to use the review system.

hardcastlemccormick said:
Or you could stop buying the games and explain why. Through the review system.

Why do we always have people who start complaining about customers expressing their discontent in every thread like this? What's so bad about consumers having a voice, and using it?

Because I disagree with the way they use that voice in this case. I think it is strange to suddenly leave all these bad reviews because a price has changed a bit.

Uzzy · Jun 17, 2017

At least for multiplayer you just need one nutter to own the DLC to use it all.

MUnited83 · Jun 17, 2017

Oxymoron said:
It's not that unusual. The App Store does its currency adjustments retroactively/universally: publishers set a price in USD, and then Apple decides "0.99 USD is 0.99 CAD", or "0.99 USD is 1.29 CAD", and when they switch the price over, a five year old 2.99 app goes from 2.99 CAD to 3.89 CAD overnight, with no input from the dev.

Given that it's so easy to gift Steam games across borders, it's easy to see why they'd want to change prices retroactively to avoid arbitrage, which would just be plain lost money for them.

You're like 3 years late

Adnor · Jun 17, 2017

ClosingADoor said:
Or make your voice heard through other means, a review should be about the game, not surrounding issues that you might disagree with.

A Steam review is louder than an angry tweet, so if you want to actually be heard it makes sense to use that. If you don't like it, you can always check Metascore instead of Steam reviews.

witchedwiz · Jun 17, 2017

Cels said:
currency adjustments to prices are not anything odd or weird

sure, but when you factor in that paradox is taking out core feature of each game previous iteration and selling it as dlc...
it all adds up, and at some point people will say "gtfo"..

this is just one "corp-move" too many

Phrozenflame500 · Jun 17, 2017

Vigilant Walrus said:
I've said this before in previous outrage/scandals threads; Changing reviews in large numbers is an incredible interesting way for people to voice their opinion. Steam reviews matter in ways that are more significant than we had 5-10 years ago, when usually what would make news was if 4chan had flooded metacritic Dragon Age 2 reviews.

I think it's increased prevalence nowadays is just a natural extension of the "games as a service" mentality that's become more popular nowadays. What's interesting is that while normally it's an ongoing multiplayer game that gets reviewbombed, this time it's a primarily single-player experience. Paradox has sort of established that their model includes ongoing support via both free patches and DLC and not just a single purchase, so this similar response makes sense.

Eila · Jun 17, 2017

Oxymoron said:
My bad. Still, can't imagine it's that hard for someone in North America to get a Russian Steam account and buy games in rubles.

It is hard (need russian credit card, address and VPN), not to mention punishable by Valve. Don't know anybody who does that.
Before the only way to get cheaper games for someone in the first world was to buy them from a Norwegian reseller, games were a little cheaper there generally, but now you can't buy steam gifts and store them in your inventory anymore, and you can't cross-gift between regions if the price difference is high. That's right, if you are american and want to gift a game to someone in Brazil you can't do it anymore even though the game should be more expensive.

hardcastlemccormick · Jun 17, 2017

ClosingADoor said:
Game was bought for $40, played for 1000 hours. That is 0,04 an hour. Game is now $60. That is 0.06 an hour. And suddenly these people think the game is too expensive. I just think it is an overreaction and a stupid way to use the review system.

It's a good idea to review a game from the perspective of somehow who hasn't played it for 1000 hours, though. Would you recommend the game to a new person? Maybe they wouldn't, with the DLC policies and prices, and these new anti-consumer moves that may continue into the future. I think it's very responsible to warn folks away.

ClosingADoor said:
Because I disagree with the way they use that voice in this case. I think it is strange to suddenly leave all these bad reviews because a price has changed a bit.

OK, so, consumers not allowed to complain in reviews about price. Got it. Never again will any review ever have a negative opinion due to price. Reviews - price-free opinions.

texhnolyze · Jun 17, 2017

The scummy thing about this is that I'm pretty sure that they're planning to give the highest discount from this new base price in the upcoming summer sale so that the games will be more appealing, while actually they'e still the same as their regular discount before the price hike.

ClosingADoor · Jun 17, 2017

hardcastlemccormick said:
It's a good idea to review a game from the perspective of somehow who hasn't played it for 1000 hours, though. Would you recommend the game to a new person? Maybe they wouldn't, with the DLC policies and prices, and these new anti-consumer moves that may continue into the future. I think it's very responsible to warn folks away.

OK, so, consumers not allowed to complain in reviews about price. Got it. Never again will any review ever have a negative opinion due to price. Reviews - price-free opinions.

Me saying this case is a bit of an overreaction is not me saying no review can mention a price. It's just me saying I think the reviews are a bit unfair seeing a a lot of the people leaving them have played the game hundreds to thousands of hours.

xealo · Jun 17, 2017

Mavromatis said:
Why? I can't recommend EU4 to a friend at this price point with all the DLCs. It would be recruiting to a pyramid scheme. I couldn't buy most of the DLCs myself despite having tons of gameplay hours on it.

There's only 2, maybe 3, that are absolutely essential to play of the DLC. The ones that aren't art of war, common sense, and maybe cossacks are all situational The rest really depends on if someone wants the features in it. It's certainly expensive to get into EU4 at this point, but it's by no means a pyramid scheme, with how deep and frequent sales are.

That said, the outrage against second/third world country price hikes are definitely warranted.

The Hamburglar · Jun 17, 2017

they've doubled the price of some games, even ones year old. that is just fucked up. Not to mention their shitty DLC practice.

texhnolyze · Jun 17, 2017

ClosingADoor said:
Me saying this case is a bit of an overreaction is not me saying no review can mention a price. It's just me saying I think the reviews are a bit unfair seeing a a lot of the people leaving them have played the game hundreds to thousands of hours.

Because if you're not doing anything to give the publisher the right message and accept this kind of shitty behavior, other devs would see this move acceptable and follow suit.

Look from the the bigger picture.

TheVoidDragon · Jun 17, 2017

ClosingADoor said:
Game was bought for $40, played for 1000 hours. That is 0,04 an hour. Game is now $60. That is 0.06 an hour. And suddenly these people think the game is too expensive. I just think it is an overreaction and a stupid way to use the review system.
.

You're really missing the point. You're only considering the game itself and the hours they got from it, there's more to it than that. It's not about how much enjoyment they got out of the game, it's whether or not they think the developer/publisher deserves to be supported after making this change. It's not like they went "Oh, i got 1000 hours at $40 and that was worth it, but 1000 hours at $60 wouldn't be, that's too much for it!". It's more like "I've got lots of fun out of this game but i can't support what i think is a terrible decision and don't think others should either, so i can't recommend it anymore unless that changes". I think if someone with that much time suddenly decides to say you shouldn't buy it, that holds more weight than if someone who has only just bought the game says not to; they're clearly someone who likes the game a lot, so whatever has made them decide against telling others to buy it as well is probably fairly bad.

It's using the review system to show they disagree with the decisions that have been made that affect the developer and the game itself, there's nothing wrong with that, especially as it's pretty much the only way to show they're unhappy other than just posting on forums that ultimately aren't likely to make much difference .

Stiler · Jun 17, 2017

Vinter said:
Yes they do. That is how they can continue to support the games. I understand that some people dislike this business model but they wouldn't make a lot of money otherwise. Their games aren't something that has a huge market.

I think you misunderstood my point.

You brought up the continued support and dlc as a reason for them to hike the price up of the base game because they keep working on them years after the base game has released.

I am making a point that the dlc itself costs money and thus they make a profit on dlc and that's why it makes little sense the hike the base game price up as the game gets older.

They are trying to make more money on the base game even after it's 5+ years old, that's not how the market works and as you can see from the outcry against it not a lot of people are happy about it.

They went from offering good post-release content and fans supporting it to being too greedy and the fans having a backlash because of it.

RinNowaru · Jun 17, 2017

ClosingADoor · Jun 17, 2017

texhnolyze said:
Because if you're not doing anything to give the publisher the right message and accept this kind of shitty behavior, other devs would see this move acceptable and follow suit.

Look from the the bigger picture.

Most other publishers already have higher prices then Paradox charges for their games though.

Guess I just buy games differently then the people angry about this. I just think "is this game worth my money?" and leave it at that. And everyone can make that decision for themselves. If they decide to charge a higher price, I buy another game, not like there isn't enough choice on Steam of all places.

Stiler said:
They are trying to make more money on the base game even after it's 5+ years old, that's not how the market works and as you can see from the outcry against it not a lot of people are happy about it.

But that is how the market works. The UK for example has seen price increases due to exchange rates. The market changes, so do prices.

Vandiger · Jun 17, 2017

RinNowaru said:
Steam users are a bunch of cry babies.. also why the heck do steam allow anyone to review a game after only played 30 minutes

People buying games just to place a negative review and then refunding it should be community banned

LOL have you seen the prices of the DLC on their games? Its insane.

TheVoidDragon · Jun 17, 2017

RinNowaru said:
Steam users are a bunch of cry babies.. also why the heck do steam allow anyone to review a game after only played 30 minutes

People buying games just to place a negative review and then refunding it should be community banned

Also i never understand how people can get so fuzzed over DLC

If you don't want to buy DLC then dont buy it. Its not rocket science.

So you're saying if you don't agree with a poor business decision that negatively impacts customers, you should just ignore it and hope it goes away on its own? Steam reviews are a way to draw attention to the issue and show the community isn't happy.

Red Arremer · Jun 17, 2017

RinNowaru said:
Also i never understand how people can get so fuzzed over DLC

If you don't want to buy DLC then dont buy it. Its not rocket science.

Look I can clearly tell you don't play Paradox games otherwise you wouldn't make this comment.

Their DLC isn't just some additional levels, characters or items, we're talking about straight up mechanics that heavily affect the game and how it is played. Some of these DLC mechanics are heavily intertwined with how the (base) game works, and without them, makes for a much worse experience.

Let me give you an example from EU4. Province development, which not only is a mechanic gated behind DLC, it's a mechanic gated behind DLC that the lead designer of EU4 has openly stated was a mistake to make paid DLC.
Province development is an extremely significant mechanic that allows you to increase the value of your land by using the resources the game gives you. It is insanely important and heavily impacts how the game is played, as it not only allows you to make your land better and gives you avenue to spend those resources, it also has a massive indirect impact on diplomacy, warfare, etc.

texhnolyze · Jun 17, 2017

ClosingADoor said:
Most other publishers already have higher prices then Paradox charges for their games though.

Guess I just buy games differently then the people angry about this. I just think "is this game worth my money?" and leave it at that. And everyone can make that decision for themselves. If they decide to charge a higher price, I buy another game, not like there isn't enough choice on Steam of all places.

The difference is, those games set the higher price from the start, which is totally fine. Though in some cases people also react for bad initial pricing in the past. Not sure how can't you see it. The appeal of Steam is that people can expect price drop from older games, which is the norm, not the opposite. Your accepting this new behavior is creating a new shitty norm for the customers.

Slayven · Jun 17, 2017

EU4 down to Mostly Negative with 29% positive
CK2 down to Mixed with 40% positive
HoI4 down to Mixed with 58% positive
Victoria 2 down to Mixed with 48% positive
Stellaris down to Mixed with 63% positive

Damn

Faabulous · Jun 17, 2017

I just LOL'd pretty hard when I saw the prices here in Brazil. As a paradox faithful, I've been keeping up with the DLC releases for EU4 and CK2 because I love those games and wanted to support their niche effort, but let me tell you: they weren't worth the price then, they sure as hell aren't worth double.

Come on paradox, if you expect me to pay double for your thin-ass DLC, you better feed them A LOT more content. We're paying half the price of the base game for 1/10 of the content and that doesn't even include graphical content, that's another 26 Brazillian Fun Bucks please. Come the fuck on, the review bombing is justified, their DLC policy was already shit before, is even worse now

xealo · Jun 17, 2017

Red Arremer said:
Look I can clearly tell you don't play Paradox games otherwise you wouldn't make this comment.

Their DLC isn't just some additional levels, characters or items, we're talking about straight up mechanics that heavily affect the game and how it is played.

Let me give you an example from EU4. Province development, which not only is a mechanic gated behind DLC, it's a mechanic gated behind DLC that the lead designer of EU4 has openly stated was a mistake to make paid DLC.
Province development is an extremely significant mechanic that allows you to increase the value of your land by using the resources the game gives you. It is insanely important and heavily impacts how the game is played, as it not only allows you to make your land better and gives you avenue to spend those resources, it also has a massive indirect impact on diplomacy, warfare, etc.

It also ties in the tech system hugely since 1.18 when they overhauled it away from westernisation.

The way province development ties into forcing institutions to spawn to avoid a massive tech cost without making development increases a base feature is just incredibly scummy.

This is why the Common Sense pack is so essential to play, and paradox is gouging people with this setup.

Red Arremer · Jun 17, 2017

xealo said:
It also ties in the tech system hugely since 1.18 when they overhauled it away from westernisation.

The way province development ties into forcing institutions to spawn to avoid a massive tech cost without making development increases a basse feature is just incredibly scummy.

This is why the Common Sense pack is so essential to play, and paradox is gouging people with this setup.

Yeah, that's part of the indirect impact. I also edited my post to mention the intertwining of base mechanics with DLC mechanics. Technology being indirectly tied to province development is is one of those examples.

darkinstinct · Jun 17, 2017

Steam users are nothing but tr...olls.

Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew · Jun 17, 2017

Cels said:
currency adjustments to prices are not anything odd or weird

It's not weird when a game hasn't released. Once out, stick to your price. Who cares if buying power changes, you're not losing any more customers over CENTS. And now you are losing DOLLARS.

This is dollars over cents, and its quite silly.

Kadin · Jun 17, 2017

Is this due in part to sites like cdkeys selling games on the cheap from other regions?

TheVoidDragon · Jun 17, 2017

darkinstinct said:
Steam users are nothing but tr...olls.

Disagreeing with a business decision that negatively affects people is trolling? what?

Faabulous said:
I just LOL'd pretty hard when I saw the prices here in Brazil. As a paradox faithful, I've been keeping up with the DLC releases for EU4 and CK2 because I love those games and wanted to support their niche effort, but let me tell you: they weren't worth the price then, they sure as hell aren't worth double.

Come on paradox, if you expect me to pay double for your thin-ass DLC, you better feed them A LOT more content. We're paying half the price of the base game for 1/10 of the content and that doesn't even include graphical content, that's another 26 Brazillian Fun Bucks please. Come the fuck on, the review bombing is justified, their DLC policy was already shit before, is even worse now

Their DLC seems pretty highly priced in the first place, and while people claim that it allows them to keep supporting the game, i think that misses that the content that does get added (at least from what I've seen of Stellaris so far) isn't exactly as good as it could be. As an example the developers said that making ship trails a different colour was "good enough" for Empire differentiation, and the mid-game was now "satisfactory" after recent updates despite it still lacking any depth or anything significant to do.

Eila · Jun 17, 2017

Kadin said:
Is this due in part to sites like cdkeys selling games on the cheap from other regions?

This is not going to stop that. It's completely unrelated.

Red Arremer · Jun 17, 2017

Kadin said:
Is this due in part to sites like cdkeys selling games on the cheap from other regions?

Valve has essentially curbstomped regional key-trading. It barely even exists anymore, if at all. If you're in the US or EU you can't buy for cheap anymore from Russia for instance.
At worst you'll get the key cheaper by a handful of dollars, but it's still similar pricing.

Keinning · Jun 17, 2017

Does Paradox even know where or what Brazil is? "Increased purchasing power"? We're in the middle of a political shitstorm, unemployment is on the rise, our economy weaker and weaker... .but sure, i'll pay double for your games now, paradox, why the hell not?

Kadin · Jun 17, 2017

Eila said:
This is not going to stop that. It's completely unrelated.

Red Arremer said:
Valve has essentially curbstomped regional key-trading. It barely even exists anymore, if at all. If you're in the US or EU you can't buy for cheap anymore from Russia for instance.
At worst you'll get the key cheaper by a handful of dollars, but it's still similar pricing.

Ah okay. I only asked because I saw the discount on Stellaris here ($16.89) and wondered how the pricing was so cheap and thought maybe it was related to what they're trying to do to prevent it. Then again on that page it says the normal price is $60 which should be $40.

Red Arremer · Jun 17, 2017

Kadin said:
Ah okay. I only asked because I saw the discount on Stellaris here ($16.89) and wondered how the pricing was so cheap and thought maybe it was related to what they're trying to do to prevent it. Then again on that page it says the normal price is $60 which should be $40.

As far as I remember:
CD Keys and similar retailers buy keys in bulk when they go on sale and then resell them for the lowest sale price.

If you buy from CD Keys you're not going to get a Russian key.

RinNowaru · Jun 17, 2017

m_dorian · Jun 17, 2017

No company is my friend. That includes companies that usually treat their customers fair like CDPR or Paradox.

I generally love Paradox's output but i tend to buy their products after their development cycle when they are complete, usually on a sale. For the titles i rushed to buy at launch sometimes i reward Paradox's tender care of their products by buying a DLC or two. Although i really dislike their DLC business practice i can understand it, live with it and bypass it.

However that pricing change is the straw that broke the camel's back. I believe they deserve every single downvote they get and i will play my tiny and inconsequential part on this. I will still buy their products but i will never again buy at launch, buy DLC and buy when not on sale.

Support NeoGAF

Negative reviews on Paradox Interactive games because of price increases

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

For you.

Member

Member

Member

For you.

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Banned

Member

Member

Banned

Banned

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Member

...lacks reading comprehension.

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Similar threads