Valve will "happily" refund pre-purchases (if actioned before the release date) and unredeemed gifts as they're unused products. The matter of activated games is something else entirely and unless there's widespread outrage or you can point to the letter of the law that states the company is obligated to offer a refund, the request is all but guaranteed to be refused.
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EA refuses to refund user for Sim City and then threatens a ban if they chargeback
- Thread starter IcyRhythms
- Start date
Valve will "happily" refund pre-purchases (if actioned before the release date) and unredeemed gifts as they're unused products. The matter of activated games is something else entirely and unless there's widespread outrage or you can point to the letter of the law that states the company is obligated to offer a refund, the request is all but guaranteed to be refused.
I chargedback the purchase of this since they refused to refund. Just want to make it clear that in the 12 years I've been using a credit card this is the first time Ive ever requested one. I don't get all huffy about DRM, but when something is broke how the hell can I not return it? Its so completely insane to me that you can buy a product, it can be completely broken, and you have no recourse. What other product is there anywhere that you can't return if its broken or doesn't work? I know people saying "don't worry, it will be fixed soon". So what? Why am I expected to give a shit? You sold me faulty garbage, I want my money back, end of story. Maybe you fix it later, maybe you don't, I absolutely don't care. I have no reason to trust you, and even if I did I want my money back out of principle. You can't sell me broken shit with the promise of fixing it later, it doesn't work that way. What other facet of life is this strategy acceptable?
Every facet of life unless the fault is considered major, which is unlikely to be the case here. If the fault is minor, the seller is first entitled to repair, replace or reduce the price (you may have the right to reject some of these options). Only if the item can not be repaired or replaced will you have the right to get a refund. Of course a lot of businesses have policies that allow for granting immediate refunds, but that's a right arising from the policy, not law. Immediately chargebacking usually means that you are liable for any damages arising from it and may still be bound by the contract.
Mystic_Wanderer
Member
If something does not function as advertised, you may return it. I am speaking about America, I do not know where you live. There is no requirement to repair - if the product doesn't work, you can return.
I'm fairly certain that this is incorrect or at least not the full story.
Chargebacks are a completely valid option if the merchant refuses to work with you, but you should always exhaust and document all communication (whatever is available of chat, e-mail & phone support) before going through with it. Not only is that common sense before resorting to desperate measures, but sometimes the card issuer will want to see an attempt at resolution, based on the response from the merchant. Most of the time though they just don't give a shit and you will get your way regardless. Just as valid in the digital realm, even more in the case a merchant wants to screw you just because something is digital, when they otherwise wouldn't/couldn't if it was physical.
OldAsUrSock
Banned
No, the music consumer are the weakest. People pay higher prices for music now and at less quality! Many peeps also gladly accept itunes DRM.
RedNumberFive
Banned
Nope, he is completely correct.
Mystic_Wanderer
Member
Um, what? Fairly certain you're inventing magic out of thin air.
If a product does not work, you can return it, period.
Dreams-Visions
Member
iTunes music hasn't had drm in years.
I made references to the distinction of minor/major fault and in the case of a major fault you can generally just return the product. You haven't provided any sources or given any indication that you have a clue what you are talking about, so I've no reason to take your word for it.
Mystic_Wanderer
Member
If you wish to continue making blanket uninformed and false statements, don't look for me to hold your hand. Please proceed, governor.
I see I'm wasting my time with you.
Master Nairb
Member
I wonder if Best Buy will accept a refund? That is where I bought my game. I'm sorry but I can't stand when companies do this. I had a little trouble like this with Blizzard a year ago and now I refuse to play their games. EA is on that list now to
Duane Cunningham
Member
Holy shit, EA. And the threat is to ban his account. Not just from Sim City but from whatever other EA games he legitimately paid for. That's fuuuucked up.
Are you suggesting that the complete inability to play the game you bought is a 'minor' fault?
In what possible way can the fault not be considered major armchair lawyer?
It may be if the issue will likely be resolved quickly. If the service outage lasts long you may get the right to withdraw anyway, but I'm talking about the immediately available remedies.
I'm not an expert in this area, but I'm not an "armchair" lawyer.
Ignoring the fact that it already hasn't been resolved quickly, that's such a spurious claim.
You know, after 2 days of this Stockholm Syndrome shit I can't even be bothered to argue anymore, if people want to get defrauded by companies, if people don't actually want any consumer rights then fucking go for it.
I did not suggest that "completely inability" to play the game for 4 days straight is a minor flaw. If the service has really been completely unavailable for the whole period, it seems very likely that you can withdraw from the contract. All I'm saying is that there is no blanket right to withdraw immediately if it's not immediately apparent that the defect is significant. Also the situation is a bit different here as it's an issue with the service.
I'm not saying that consumers shouldn't have strong and immediate remedies available in situations like this.
I don't know what country Mystic_Wanderer and syllogism are arguing about, but syllogism would be correct in the UK.
People think they're entitled to a refund if something doesn't work, but this is only the case if the retailer is unable to provide a repair or replacement within a reasonable length of time.
People think they're entitled to a refund if something doesn't work, but this is only the case if the retailer is unable to provide a repair or replacement within a reasonable length of time.
OldJadedGamer
Banned
Never support always on DRM.
Yeah, sorry, it wasn't directed at you particularly (hence my use of 'people'), I've just reached the end of my tether with this stuff.
I've never seen a forum like GAF before, with just so many people willing to bend over and take it from companies, then thank them for it and ask for more. It's really strange and disheartening.
OK, one more and then I'm done. That isn't true at all, under the Sale of Goods Act you have a 'reasonable amount of time' to reject an item and get a full refund if the item is not 'as described, of satisfactory quality and fit for purpose.'
Know your rights!
Steverulez
Member
What gets me about this situation is that you could see from a million miles away that these connection issues were going to happen. Not because its EA, but because it was clearly a crappy practise to do it in the first place.
I also don't think anyone should have willingly reviewed it (and put their score/review up) before launch to see how the servers were going to hold up. Polygon keeping changing their score is a bit ridiculous though, whats the point?
EA not giving refunds is just shitty EA customer service, I wouldn't expect anything less and they haven't come out of this looking good but in the end I don't it will really affect their sales of the game.
I also don't think anyone should have willingly reviewed it (and put their score/review up) before launch to see how the servers were going to hold up. Polygon keeping changing their score is a bit ridiculous though, whats the point?
EA not giving refunds is just shitty EA customer service, I wouldn't expect anything less and they haven't come out of this looking good but in the end I don't it will really affect their sales of the game.
While I think MS needs to be more gracious with their return policy; I think banning if the user does a chargeback through their credit card is totally reasonable.
Think about it, it's a digital license. You buy the game with the credit card, validate the digital license so you can play it, then get your money back through your credit card, but still have the license to play it? That's not right. However, "banning" that account, thus making it impossible for you to play with a license that you no longer paid for seems reasonable.
I'm not sure why that's even a part of the thread title, as it makes it more sensational.
However, if it's "banning" from the entire EA servers (including other games that are legit licensed), that's crap, and EA needs to fix it.
Think about it, it's a digital license. You buy the game with the credit card, validate the digital license so you can play it, then get your money back through your credit card, but still have the license to play it? That's not right. However, "banning" that account, thus making it impossible for you to play with a license that you no longer paid for seems reasonable.
I'm not sure why that's even a part of the thread title, as it makes it more sensational.
However, if it's "banning" from the entire EA servers (including other games that are legit licensed), that's crap, and EA needs to fix it.
Disagree with this part. Its sure as hell is technically possible to have a 99.x% flawless always online service, tons of MMOs and content providers do it everyday.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Steverulez
Member
I know its completely technically possible. It should have been an easy thing to do, but looking at this game and the issues people had with EAs anti-consumer practises I think for this game, it was an inevitability.
You are right. I forgot about the fit for purpose clause. I know in the past people have claimed that buggy games should be refundable, describing the bugs as "faulty", but because they are present in every copy of the game, it was quirk of the product, but not a fault. They didn't qualify for a refund.
Obviously in these cases the bugs would not have rendered the game "not fit for purpose". When the game is completely unplayable like SimCity I think you have a pretty good argument for a refund.
kingellesar
Member
Fifa does the same every year, clubs, ultimate team, seasons no matter what they end up running into troubles the first few weeks of launch.
EAs servers are just crap, tesco value or something.
Mystic_Wanderer
Member
Normally I'd ask if you read what I posted before commenting, but based on your "don't know what country" when I clearly stated America, it shows you didn't read.
Also, as a few others have pointed out, you're wrong.
this. i always have online problems with ea games. they are most definitely the worst. it's odd, since you'd think they'd have good servers with how many they shut down to save money.
kingellesar
Member
Yep. Touch wood I've never had specific issues BUT:
One of my friends wasn't allowed to play online on ANY EA game for months due to age restrictions, he phoned up and told them hes never had problems with it before but they never helped him. He was 21 at the time (UK) so there were no issues.
Another friend had a lot of problems playing Fifa clubs with us (he is a member on here!) and had to get an EA person to monitor his usage on it to see if they could detect the issue.....he never heard back.
Ea servers are absolute garbage and always have been but we just have to put up with it if we want to play their games!
So I just received this email from GMG after asked them for a refund explaining to them the sale of goods act at this is what I recieve
Its so frustrating and I seem to be getting now where. They wont reply to my replies making me open another ticket every time. The fact they acknowledged that the game has issues makes it worst as it is not fit for purpose etc.
Its so frustrating and I seem to be getting now where. They wont reply to my replies making me open another ticket every time. The fact they acknowledged that the game has issues makes it worst as it is not fit for purpose etc.
fabricated backlash
Member
And this is why we need comprehensive laws and regulations about this stuff ASAP. The EU should finally step in and clear this once and for all. It's a travesty that companies can just do whatever they want while screwing over the customer without no protection at all.
Same reply I got from them. Your only option is doing a chargeback, theyre not going to refund you.
RoninChaos
Member
Ain't that the fucking truth.
Yeah I really wish they would make it easier to claim. I love how GMG are just saying it says in their T&Cs and have no understanding on the sale of goods act. I am definitely going to be complaining to trading standards and may also right into watchdog or something as stupid as it sounds!
What if GMG has no way of revoking the key they gave you? If they were to give you a refund you would be essentially getting the game for free.
NullPointer
Member
Its an always online game isn't it? And this always-online (lolz) service has to validate the user's access to the game somehow. Can't they just provide/inform EA of the licenses\credentials to revoke?
Its 2013. Why the hell is this even an issue?
GMG and others should at least provide credit. This is such a clusterfuck and highlights just how shitty customer protections and regulations are for 'services'.
Amazon can, EA can, why wouldn't they be able too?
I suppose the situation here is quite similar to that of an internet service that is too slow or intermittently unavailable. The internet service operator is always given the opportunity to fix the issue, although you may be entitled to compensation if the service is down for a longer duration. The quality of the service can also wildly vary and still be deemed acceptable. Of course, the contracts also do not promise 100% uptime and the speeds come with the qualifier "up to ". Similarly Origin terms of service does not guarantee that the service is always available. The product itself isn't defective, at least in the legal sense (as a side note, software bugs are rarely if ever grounds for a refund).
The difference is though that the gaming service is a single time, upfront payment. Even though there is a delay in the performance (if it's completely unavailable), if the issues get fixed in a reasonable time frame, the buyer does not suffer any real damages arising from the delay. The gaming service provider might even argue that the buyer couldn't reasonably expect to get flawless service at this price point, because similar products that do not have service elements aren't any cheaper (yes, few gamers think the service adds any value at all to the product, but running the service does cost money).
The difference is though that the gaming service is a single time, upfront payment. Even though there is a delay in the performance (if it's completely unavailable), if the issues get fixed in a reasonable time frame, the buyer does not suffer any real damages arising from the delay. The gaming service provider might even argue that the buyer couldn't reasonably expect to get flawless service at this price point, because similar products that do not have service elements aren't any cheaper (yes, few gamers think the service adds any value at all to the product, but running the service does cost money).
Really don't give a crap what the law says in regards to faulty software, because the law on that stuff is in is infancy and a complete joke. It doesnt take anything more than common sense to realize if you buy a piece of software and it doesnt work from the moment you got it and continues to not work for another 5 days that youre more than entitled to a refund. I dont understand why its so damn difficult to get a refund. I'm not asking for compensation, I just want my money back. There isnt even a restocking procedure or any wear and tear to the digital good. there brutal and archaic refund policies are setup the way they are because no one has really challenged them and the consumer wont have real recourse until its challenged in a meaningful way.
TLDR; - Fuck you, I want my money back.
TLDR; - Fuck you, I want my money back.