Terrell said:

So you switch from arguing for historic precedent to arguing against it?

.... interesting.

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What are you taking about?

Not sure what he's getting at... there is no historical precedent really as this gen is the first w/ digital download services.

but when it comes down to it, what do we expect from MS and Sony? Full compatibility with DD games bought on the previous console? NINTENDO did that. It's a menu down. Is Wii mode that bad? I haven't even started up Wii mode because I have no Wii games or Wii DD games.

BruiserBear said:

What are you taking about?

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If there's a "mountain of evidence" to suggest that VC on Wii U is going to be a trickle, there's a "mountain of evidence" that MS doesn't give a shit about proper backwards compatibility.

Do I believe that? No, because both suggestions are reliant on circumstantial evidence that doesn't apply to the situations that evidence is being used against. But since you brought historic precedent into the thread, it's best that it be applied evenly in all cases, not the ones that you choose to apply it to.

Terrell said:

If there's a "mountain of evidence" to suggest that VC on Wii U is going to be a trickle, there's a "mountain of evidence" that MS doesn't give a shit about proper backwards compatibility.

Do I believe that? No, because both suggestions are reliant on circumstantial evidence that doesn't apply to the situations that evidence is being used against. But since you brought historic precedent into the thread, it's best that it be applied evenly in all cases, not the ones that you choose to apply it to.

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You're grasping at straws now. Just let it go.

There are multiple points of evidence of Nintendo trickling out their Virtual Console releases. They did it with the Wii. They've done it with the 3DS, and now they're currently doling out a single game a month until the full VC is launched, and even then they've already said they're only releasing NES and SNES games. Eventually they promise to get to GBA releases.

Do you know how many Xbox games worked on the 360 the day if it's release? It was 278. Eventually they enabled 478 Xbox games to work on the Xbox 360. As I also mentioned earlier, there is evidence that Microsoft has prepared for backwards compatibility to be much easier on the next Xbox.

I have no idea why you're attempting to take up this cause, and debate, but I can assure you it's a losing battle, for all the reasons I've just listed, and more I haven't bothered to even go into.

H_Prestige said:

How is it extra when you've already paid for the Wii U and the ROM?

Nintendo's handling of VC and Wii BC is pure garbage. They should not be held as the gold standard.

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The game you paid for is perfectly playable on the Wii U. You go into Wii mode and start it up and play. Any of the ones you bought. All the games.

That's full backwards compatibility with the Wii on the Wii U, WiiWare included!

Dave Long said:

I really think it's insane to assume that Xbox 360 and PS3 software is going to be backwards compatible out of the box with the next generation of Sony and Microsoft consoles. Number one, it's clear that the new machines have new architecture that makes that hard. Number two, the current machines are nowhere near the level of being able to be produced "on a chip" the way PS2 or PSX were when Sony introduced their successors. Also, Microsoft struggled with Xbox softtware on Xbox 360 and much of the library went unemulated on 360.

To come into a Nintendo thread about Wii U and throw around how you think Sony and Microsoft got this figured out is just silly because Nintendo has made ALL Wii software work including Virtual Console. The only thing they haven't done is made it work in the Wii U interface or on the gamepad. You might like to have that too, but that's something extra you're asking for, not basic functionality. Nintendo is ahead of the game on this one and likely will remain so.

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i agree, and even if it is backwards compatable, who knows how it will actually perform.

just look at the xbox, fable 1 is downright unplayable

Dave Long said:

The game you paid for is perfectly playable on the Wii U. You go into Wii mode and start it up and play. Any of the ones you bought. All the games.

That's full backwards compatibility with the Wii on the Wii U, WiiWare included!

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Well, not completely full. Certain games like Lost Winds will not transfer for some reason (and also not re-downloadable on Wii Mode either I believe). And a large chunk of the Wii application "channels" cannot be transferred either.

BruiserBear said:

You're grasping at straws now. Just let it go.

There are multiple points of evidence of Nintendo trickling out their Virtual Console releases.

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OK, let's break them down.

BruiserBear said:

They did it with the Wii.

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It was the initial run of the entire concept, using the mistakes of the FIRST RUN is disingenuous for a whole shitload of reasons.

Nintendo has all of their games that they published on the service with the exception of titles where there are legal/licensing issues (Earthbound is the #1 example, Goldeneye is #2) or technical issues (games that used the SuperFX chip).

The rest is up to 3rd-parties, and Nintendo gets NO say on when they can clear that content for VC release because it's not THEIR game. Or has that slipped people's minds?

BruiserBear said:

They've done it with the 3DS,

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Well, this one is easy to explain. Notice how they aren't boasting about its success like they originally did with VC on the Wii? Yeah, perhaps there's a reason for that, like sales of VC titles on 3DS being in the absolute shitter, perhaps? People always talk about how the handheld market has its own distinctions from consoles sales-wise, I could see VC not flying as well as VC on a console would. And if you were in Nintendo's position, would you sink your time into prepping the service for the home console market where it was more successful or sink that time into a lost cause? Everyone always says that Nintendo's decisions are money-motivated, is that somehow not true in this case that no one's coming to this conclusion? And if so, why?

BruiserBear said:

and now they're currently doling out a single game a month until the full VC is launched, and even then they've already said they're only releasing NES and SNES games. Eventually they promise to get to GBA releases.

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No, they're doing a PROMOTION of the service, selling games that are already finished and ready at a super-cheap price. And they said that they are STARTING with NES/SNES games, not that those will be the ONLY games available. Unless you've got the release schedule in front of you, you're making speculative logic jumps based on a personal interpretation of what you heard in the Nintendo Direct.

BruiserBear said:

Do you know how many Xbox games worked on the 360 the day if it's release? It was 278. Eventually they enabled 478 Xbox games to work on the Xbox 360. As I also mentioned earlier, there is evidence that Microsoft has prepared for backwards compatibility to be much easier on the next Xbox.

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Define "work". Let's look at this list and pick out a small sample of the critical darlings and the big sellers, the ones that should be working to appease the largest portion of their base:

Soul Calibur II

Framerate sometimes dips when fighter is airborne, especially when fighting in the Library arena. 720p native, but runs in 4:3 window.

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Silent Hill 2

Has an issue where the light from the flashlight shines behind the character as well as in front. Textures can frequently load in wrong areas (such as door textures on the floor) or not load at all displaying only gray space. This includes the "picture" views. Later levels lose music and sound effects audio. Many "game over" events render the game unplayable, as game will not reboot once it has been shut off. One method to avoid corrupted saves is to only save to the first slot, and rewrite it on every save. Never save in more than one slot.

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Shenmue 2

Changing the game's 'Filter' to a different color does not work and causes a brief pause. Camera snap shots also causes a brief 1-2 second pause but do work. Sound issues with advanced scart leads and VGA cable. Arcade games (i.e.: Outrun, Space Harrier) have noticeable glitches in the textures and the classic games do not work in PAL60 mode. Sometimes, geometry will not get rendered leading to creepy artifacts, such as headless people. Slowdown increases in certain areas, most notably the Dimsum Qr. Also the shadowing effects no longer work.

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Read Dead Revolver

Sky flickers from blue to black and parts of many objects flicker during gameplay in widescreen. Objects in the load screens and cutscenes flicker. Game freezes during Chapter 8 (the canyon level) usually during the boss fight, if Bad Bessie manages to attack with her whip. Shoot her from a distance, or use explosives. As long as she does not touch you, game will not freeze and gameplay can continue. Game also freezes at the loading of the 12th level (Bar Fight). Game is unplayable after this lock-up; however, changing the Xbox's output to 480p should fix this .

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Ninja Gaiden Black

Cannot remove hard drive or save file will be erased. Noticeably lower framerate during CG cutscenes.

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Halo 2

Noticeably lower framerate in four player split-screen.
Performance problems when playing on the Backwash multiplayer map.
Occasionally, 'ghost' images stay on screen unless console is reset, usually after a cutscene.
Dolby Digital sound cuts out when playing across system link.
When VGA cables are used with 4:3 monitors, the image is compressed onto the narrow monitor as if running on a 16:9 widescreen television. The problem can be avoided by running the game at a resolution of 640x480.
DLC will corrupt if the 360's hard drive is used with another 360.

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And this isn't even mentioning Fable, Conker, Forza, Panzer Dragoon Orta, JSRF, Marvel v. Capcom 2 and a WHOLE bunch of others, including best-sellers like GTA3 that NEVER EVEN MADE THE LIST. Microsoft's answer to this problem? To congratulate themselves on a job well done and walk away. That was back in 2007.

BruiserBear said:

I have no idea why you're attempting to take up this cause, and debate, but I can assure you it's a losing battle, for all the reasons I've just listed, and more I haven't bothered to even go into.

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Because you can't use historic evidence only when it suits your purpose or without any basis to claim that the events of the past were intentional or planned.

If we're going to talk about Nintendo's track record, then your disregard of or lack of acknowledgement of this glaring and heavily-documented example of MS' commitment to backwards compatibility is hypocritical when discussing next-gen backwards compatibility as a given, no matter what you think you know about how it's going to play out for them.

Hell, I don't even disagree with you, but I temper my statements by saying that MS SHOULD have backwards compatibility sorted out next-gen. It's not a guarantee, and especially with prior examples of how MS has handled BC, I'd be a fool to think it would be. Talking like it's set in stone how things are going to pan out based on the past is and always has been a foolish thing to do.

This is the only thing I've taken issue with, if you flip back to what my original objection was that started this discussion in the first place.

Nintendo doing well with VC is in their best interests. MS getting backwards compatibility right is in their best interests. In both cases, given that their previous histories are less likely to reflect their actual goals, I'm not holding it against either of them.

Terrell said:

It was the initial run of the entire concept, using the mistakes of the FIRST RUN is disingenuous for a whole shitload of reasons.

Nintendo has all of their games that they published on the service with the exception of titles where there are legal/licensing issues (Earthbound is the #1 example, Goldeneye is #2) or technical issues (games that used the SuperFX chip).

The rest is up to 3rd-parties, and Nintendo gets NO say on when they can clear that content for VC release because it's not THEIR game. Or has that slipped people's minds?



Well, this one is easy to explain. Notice how they aren't boasting about its success like they originally did with VC on the Wii? Yeah, perhaps there's a reason for that, like sales of VC titles on 3DS being in the absolute shitter, perhaps? People always talk about how the handheld market has its own distinctions from consoles sales-wise, I could see VC not flying as well as VC on a console would. And if you were in Nintendo's position, would you sink your time into prepping the service for the home console market where it was more successful or sink that time into a lost cause? Everyone always says that Nintendo's decisions are money-motivated, is that somehow not true in this case that no one's coming to this conclusion? And if so, why?



No, they're doing a PROMOTION of the service, selling games that are already finished and ready at a super-cheap price. And they said that they are STARTING with NES/SNES games, not that those will be the ONLY games available. Unless you've got the release schedule in front of you, you're making speculative logic jumps based on a personal interpretation of what you heard in the Nintendo Direct.

Because you can't use historic evidence only when it suits your purpose or without any basis to claim that the events of the past were intentional or planned.

If we're going to talk about Nintendo's track record, then your disregard of or lack of acknowledgement of this glaring and heavily-documented example of MS' commitment to backwards compatibility is hypocritical when discussing next-gen backwards compatibility as a given, no matter what you think you know about how it's going to play out for them.

Hell, I don't even disagree with you, but I temper my statements by saying that MS SHOULD have backwards compatibility sorted out next-gen. It's not a guarantee, and especially with prior examples of how MS has handled BC, I'd be a fool to think it would be. Talking like it's set in stone how things are going to pan out based on the past is and always has been a foolish thing to do.

This is the only thing I've taken issue with, if you flip back to what my original objection was that started this discussion in the first place.

Nintendo doing well with VC is in their best interests. MS getting backwards compatibility right is in their best interests. In both cases, given that their previous histories are less likely to reflect their actual goals, I'm not holding it against either of them.

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That's a very poor attempt on your part of re-framing the discussion at hand. Let's go back to the original posts that started this back and forth between you and I.

Terrell said:

I love how people are talking about the pace of VC content releases before the service has even been fucking re-launched. I mean FFS, get a fucking grip, people!

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Right there you suggested those of us who once again expected a trickle from the Wii U virtual console were crazy.

I presented you with evidence showing how they handled it with the Wii, how they handled it with the 3DS, and now how they've begun handling it with the Wii U.

Throw out every excuse you want, there are plenty of obvious reasons why someone would expect an exact repeat with the Wii U virtual console release schedule. You can keep on talking, but don't think for a moment I'm not gonna make a point of bringing this up for you once again when they finally "officially" launch the Wii U virtual console. Of course I fully expect you to dodge, weave, and re-write the conversation once that happens, but I won't let you get away with it then, just like i didn't let you get away with it now. You are arguing from a stance of denial, and it's a weird stance for anyone to take. Every single example we have of Nintendo's behavior with the virtual console says one clear thing, they drip drip drip the releases, but you're the only person saying "what makes you think that's going to happen again?!?". Uh, how about every single piece of evidence we have so far?

The funny thing is it's already begun with the Wii U, with this silly "promotion" period of one release per month. Did you ever dawn on you that no one is limiting that promotion to a single game per month except, Nintendo? They could have started the promotion by releasing 5 games, right? But they didn't. They chose ONE.

I'm not too worried about updates, either a weekly trickle or clumps wouldn't surprise me. I'm also pretty sure Nintendo, Sega/M2 and D4E will all be on board updating their platforms (and adding new stuff), my major worry is Hudson. Their PSN Classics and 3DS VC support seemingly dropped off the face of the Earth after the Konami War Crime Buyout. Are Dracula X and Ys I&II eternally cursed to Wii mode?

kinggroin said:

Balloon fight is 4:3. It should have black borders on the side. Or do you mean all the way around?

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All the way around. Tap the screen while playing Balloon Fight to go into the VC menu, then press HOME, go into Miiverse and press X. You should see that the TV screenshot has a black border all around while the GamePad's screenshot is completely filled up.

I notice the scaling is much less blurry on F-Zero than Balloon Fight. I wonder if this is a general change for the better, whether their scaling settings will be different for different systems, or something else.

Based on F-Zero not taking up full height of the TV screen in 1080p, I'm guessing it uses a cleaner-than-bilinear 4.5x scaling in each direction for an 1152x1008 image. HOWEVER, on the Gamepad it's taking the full height. If that full height is 480, that would make its scaling more like 2.143x. Much less even, and it shows in that the Gamepad image looks worse.