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The Last 3 Hours of Bioshock Infinite Are Gaming At Its Best (Unmarked Spoilers)

S

Sande

Member
The last couple of hours of Infinite's story sure were a roller coaster.

That's one of the few positive things I have to say about the game.

Man I really have to get around to playing the remaster. Maybe I wouldn't be so sour on it this time around especially since there aren't any expectations Infinite was never interested in meeting (such as it actually being a Bioshock game).
 
H

HueyFreeman

Banned
nhlducks35 said:
I dunno, the ending is nonsensical and the combat leading up to it is monotonous with tons of bullet sponges. It was a god damn slog to get through the parts on the ships
Click to expand...

BI may be a lot of things, but it's not nonsensical. See this thread for evidence: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=533205

There's a lot in there, and it might be too complex for some people (both cognitively and just taste-wise). But it's not nonsensical.

Sande said:
Maybe I wouldn't be so sour on it this time around especially since there aren't any expectations Infinite was never interested in meeting (such as it actually being a Bioshock game).
Click to expand...

I've always been interested in hearing a cogent explanation as to why BI is "not a bioshock game," rather than "not the bioshock game [x internet user] wanted." Please expand.
 
ethomaz

ethomaz

Banned
Infinite is a masterpiece and more devs needs to look at it before make a game.

The story and ending were absolutely top notch.
 
1

120v

Member
HueyFreeman said:
I've always been interested in hearing a cogent explanation as to why BI is "not a bioshock game," rather than "not the bioshock game [x internet user] wanted." Please expand.
Click to expand...

i think the general contention is that the system shock formula was streamlined into a fairly linear shooter. other than branching out certain abilities it's essentially just shooty bang so that alone is going to piss off tons of people

but if you look at it among other SP shooters of the gen like metro , wolfestein , et al it really was a well made game. it's history just gives it an albatross around its neck
 
T

Toxi

Banned
The last 3 hours are better gameplay-wise because you actually can use some vigors that should have been introduced much earlier in the game.

Bioshock Infinite has a serious problem with how its combat arenas are designed: They are often a bunch of scattered platforms connected by the sky hook system, with some boxes or pillars littered around for cover. These platforms are far apart, but are usually pretty small with the exception of 1 or 2 large central platforms.

What this means is that most combat will take place at mid-to-long range unless you skyhook over, at which point you're right up next to enemies. Unfortunately, most of the weapons in Bioshock Infinite are designed for mid-to-close range, especially the most common weapons enemies drop. Since you can only carry 2 weapons at a time and ammo is scarce because there are 2 pointless variants of every weapon with their own ammo systems, this leads to players often lacking a long-range weapon. So they have to constantly use the skyhook to reach enemies. And once they get to the enemy on a distant platform, they will likely be in spitting range.... Which is where you can just beat foes' brains out with the Skyhook.

For most of the game, vigors basically do one thing: Shoot a projectile. The actual effect of the projectile will be something that deals extra damage or immobilizes the enemy. They act as better guns, which makes many of the actual guns feel even more worthless. The only one that really compliments the guns is Bucking Bronco, but it still doesn't really address the issue of distance.

Charge and Undertow massively improve the combat because they let you more easily control distance. Undertow lets you bring enemies to a range where your weapons are effective, while Charge lets you just zoom around to whatever enemy you want. Suddenly you aren't entirely at the mercy of the level design for which distance you fight enemies at. Of course, Charge is hilariously overpowered, so it kinda breaks the combat, but at least it's more fun that way.

Basically: Bioshock Infinite's 2 weapon limit and spacious arenas need late game vigors and the associated upgrades to actually work on a fundamental level. The enemies are still braindead bullet sponges, but at least you can make your own weapons more satisfying.
 
T

The One Who Knocks

Member
I really enjoyed Infinite in its entirety, which seems to be quite a minority opinion these days, but the first two (maybe three) hours and the final sections stand out in particular, but the Lady Comstock boss fight was frankly unforgivable, let alone that you fought her three times if I remember correctly. It simply serves to highlight the absolute worst parts of the combat system and it was certainly not very fun. It could be largely trivialised with certain vigorous combinations (EDIT: it's kind of funny that the post above basically details how to do this using charge and its hilarious brokenness), but that shouldn't be necessary, and as I'd include it in the final three hours I don't think I could agree with the original post without explicitly excluding that section.
 
D

Dabi

Member
If the game didn't have Bioshock in it's title I'm sure I'd feel a lot different about it. But after coming off Bioshock and Bioshock 2, I had expectations that were not met.

All that aside, I do think it's a terrific game. That intro realy set the tone while the ending was a bit too "out" there for my liking.
 
K

Kevin Shields

Member
Toxi said:
The last 3 hours are better gameplay-wise because you actually can use some vigors that should have been introduced much earlier in the game.

Bioshock Infinite has a serious problem with how its combat arenas are designed: They are often a bunch of scattered platforms connected by the sky hook system, with some boxes or pillars littered around for cover. These platforms are far apart, but are usually pretty small with the exception of 1 or 2 large central platforms.

What this means is that most combat will take place at mid-to-long range unless you skyhook over, at which point you're right up next to enemies. Unfortunately, most of the weapons in Bioshock Infinite are designed for mid-to-close range, especially the most common weapons enemies drop. Since you can only carry 2 weapons at a time and ammo is scarce because there are 2 pointless variants of every weapon with their own ammo systems, this leads to players often lacking a long-range weapon. So they have to constantly use the skyhook to reach enemies. And once they get to the enemy on a distant platform, they will likely be in spitting range.... Which is where you can just beat foes' brains out with the Skyhook.

For most of the game, vigors basically do one thing: Shoot a projectile. The actual effect of the projectile will be something that deals extra damage or immobilizes the enemy. They act as better guns, which makes many of the actual guns feel even more worthless. The only one that really compliments the guns is Bucking Bronco, but it still doesn't really address the issue of distance.

Charge and Undertow massively improve the combat because they let you more easily control distance. Undertow lets you bring enemies to a range where your weapons are effective, while Charge lets you just zoom around to whatever enemy you want. Suddenly you aren't entirely at the mercy of the level design for which distance you fight enemies at. Of course, Charge is hilariously overpowered, so it kinda breaks the combat, but at least it's more fun that way.

Basically: Bioshock Infinite's 2 weapon limit and spacious arenas need late game vigors and the associated upgrades to actually work on a fundamental level. The enemies are still braindead bullet sponges, but at least you can make your own weapons more satisfying.
Click to expand...

I find it hard to argue with that while I still did have a lot of fun with combat earlier in the game. Once charge, return to sender, and undertow are interested I was doing some crazy fun shit. Again why I thought the game improved all around towards the end.

For those who thought the last couple hours were tedious and a slog gameplay wise. Were you doing any crazy shit and mixing vigors and jumping all over the place or you playing it like a cover shooter? Just curious
 
S

Sande

Member
HueyFreeman said:
I've always been interested in hearing a cogent explanation as to why BI is "not a bioshock game," rather than "not the bioshock game [x internet user] wanted." Please expand.
Click to expand...
(Copying some of this from another thread because I'm lazy)

The gameplay is just not Bioshock. What I mean by this is that every other fight is you stepping over an invisible line into a combat arena and enemies start pouring in from everywhere. It was much more natural in Bioshock and you had way more freedom in how to proceed through the levels and when/how to engage in combat. Like, Bioshock had well designed levels with enemies in them. Infinite, for the most part, has clearly separated combat sections and exploration sections.

Infinite has no health kits you can carry (replaced by a regenerating shield ffs), no eve hypos, two weapon limit (that completely destroys the point of upgrading weapons) and the clothing system is ridiculously limited compared to gene tonics. Bioshock wants it to be important when you manage to scavenge a health kit and a couple of buckshots. Infinite does not give a shit and just has Elizabeth throw them to you in the next combat arena. Bioshock wants you to customize your play style with a decent variety of gene tonics. Infinite gives you a wacky hat that randomly zaps enemies or whatever.
 
T

TI82

Banned
Complicated said:
It's a great example of the right way to weave together a story with a complex structure. It would be impressive if it was a movie. The fact that they were able to do it in a video game, and one that isn't excessively linear and controlled, is insanely impressive.

Edit: I'm sure a lot of people prefer straightforward storytelling, which I understand. Most media like this (Inception is a good example) tends to draw very similar criticism from people who call it nonsensical. 99% of games do a bad job telling straightforward stories. I loved Bioshock Infinite because it does an amazing job telling a complex story.
Click to expand...

It's not all that complicated and for a multiverse story it breaks it's own rules and just... isn't good.

Why does Comstock dying somehow stick, when EVERYTHING else has multiple versions? That's just hand wavy garbage. It wouldn't be good or exciting as a movie either. To have good time travel/parallel worlds you need to have hard rules that are defined and stuck to. Think of things like the movie Primer.
 
G

galv

Unconfirmed Member
Infinite is one of those flawed gems that I personally have a soft spot for. Gameplay once it clicks is fantastic and by far the best in the series - once you really get all the Vigors running, the game becomes a lot of fun, moving from skyhook to skyhook, shotguns and melee attacks abound. It's disappointing gear wasn't nearly as impactful as it could have been, and taking away the freedom of a weapon wheel was a step back, but overall, it's still a blast to play. Enemy variety is top notch, and I must be one of the few who actually enjoyed the boss fights in the game.

Story is convoluted and can be a little pretentious, sure, but I can't help but respect the scope of it all. Where BioShock Infinite truly shines is in the massive amount of lore behind Columbia, in the world itself, similar to what the original BioShock did with Rapture. Exploring isn't really rewarding in terms of gameplay, but there's a lot you see
if you stray off the beaten path in terms of lore. I really enjoyed reading all the posters, listening to all the audio clips - few games make me want to actually read/see all of that stuff. The dynamic between Elizabeth and Booker is done well, and Elizabeth is a strong character on her own. The visuals are one of a kind, and I still don't think we've seen anything try this sort of aesthetic yet - daylight horror is something I really wish we see more of in mass media. BioShock Infinite is a cauldron of pure potential - if only it lived up to the initial trailers and hype. But I still think it's a game well worth playing, regardless of flaws. It tried to be different and unique, and aimed incredibly high, but I can't bring myself to dislike it.
 
J

jayTOH

Member
What does it mean when people say Infinite is pretentious? Not trying to imply that there isn't any pretentiousness going on in the game, but I'm unsure of which parts of the game give off those vibes as my understanding of the word is very lacking even after looking up the definition.
 
O

Octavia

Unconfirmed Member
Absolutely not. The game's tedium was absolutely at maximum at that point. I was just hoping to get it over with. It overstayed its welcome and the airship area was really unfun with waves and waves of bulletsponges.

I did enjoy the last few story revelations and cutscenes though, that was acceptable to me.
 
T

TI82

Banned
jayTOH said:
What does it mean when people say Infinite is pretentious? Not trying to imply that there isn't any pretentiousness going on in the game, but I'm unsure of which parts of the game give off those vibes as my understanding of the word is very lacking even after looking up the definition.
Click to expand...

It thinks it has this amazing well written story when it kind of falls all over itself and never lives up to the hype.
 
E

Elixist

Member
giphy.gif


ill give you the ending i enjoyed that. the last bits of gameplay were alright at best for me though.
 
K

Kevin Shields

Member
TI82 said:
It's not all that complicated and for a multiverse story it breaks it's own rules and just... isn't good.

Why does Comstock dying somehow stick, when EVERYTHING else has multiple versions? That's just hand wavy garbage. It wouldn't be good or exciting as a movie either. To have good time travel/parallel worlds you need to have hard rules that are defined and stuck to. Think of things like the movie Primer.
Click to expand...

I understood it as some things being constants in the timelines. So if someone went back and murdered Booker/Comstock as a baby. Booker and Comstock would have never existed. The baptism was when Comstock became Comstock so it murdered him before that version of himself could have ever existed. In booker's timelines he never became Comstock ever if he wasn't baptized.
 
d00d3n

d00d3n

Member
The ending was the worst part of the game imo. The repetitive encounter design started to be a problem several hours earlier, but the last stretch really made it obvious that they had delivered an overlong and badly paced experience. This is how the game length in Bioshock Infinite compares to two of the best first person shooters back then:

bioshockinfmetrowolfkgsfg.png


The competing games extensively supported stealth gameplay, had substantial optional content to explore, and impeccably mixed up encounter arenas with modifiers and other stuff to do. Bioshock Infinite needed to offer more than a string of encounter arenas mixed with story exposition to make sense as a 15 hour game.
 
BadAss2961

BadAss2961

Member
jayTOH said:
What does it mean when people say Infinite is pretentious? Not trying to imply that there isn't any pretentiousness going on in the game, but I'm unsure of which parts of the game give off those vibes as my understanding of the word is very lacking even after looking up the definition.
Click to expand...
It's a game that's very into its story. Might come off as pretentious if you don't care for it.

I checked out midway through and didn't care to understand what was going on the rest of the way.
 
T

TI82

Banned
Kevin Shields said:
I understood it as some things being constants in the timelines. So if someone went back and murdered Booker/Comstock as a baby. Booker and Comstock would have never existed. The baptism was when Comstock became Comstock so it murdered him before that version of himself could have ever existed. In booker's timelines he never became Comstock ever if he wasn't baptized.
Click to expand...

That doesn't make sense within the story though because everything we have seen up until then has shown that for every action there are thousands upon thousands of universes with different outcomes. To just say "oh Comstock is special his death actually sticks" completely breaks those rules and makes the whole house of cards fall down.
 
C

Crooked16th

Banned
Game is amazing till you go into the future then it starts to fall apart. Also the forced rapture cameo is terrible and just feels like they needed it in there for the dlc. Then there's the retcon of the rest of the series with the whole always a man and a lighthouse.
 
Shang

Shang

Member
The last three hours were easily the worst part of a bad game. Anticlimactic gameplay climax, and a whole fuckton of shit being explained to you and immediately contradicted. Couldn't disagree with OP more
 
H

Hazmat

Member
The last three hours of Bioshock Infinite are hands-down the worst three hours in any of the Bioshock games. The combat is terrible, the story is stupid, and the ending is just something not great that someone wrote masquerading as being profound because it dealt with a completely fictitious view of time and space.
 
G

gforguava

Member
jayTOH said:
What does it mean when people say Infinite is pretentious? Not trying to imply that there isn't any pretentiousness going on in the game, but I'm unsure of which parts of the game give off those vibes as my understanding of the word is very lacking even after looking up the definition.
Click to expand...
It it is a game that thinks it has something to say when it really, really doesn't. The racism set dressing alone is enough to get it rightfully labeled as 'pretentious'.

And, yeah, definitely don't agree with the OP, easily the worst part of the game. Even ignoring the narrative stupidity, the gameplay just becomes even more tedious.
 
K

Kevin Shields

Member
Hazmat said:
The last three hours of Bioshock Infinite are hands-down the worst three hours in any of the Bioshock games. The combat is terrible, the story is stupid, and the ending is just something not great that someone wrote masquerading as being profound because it dealt with a completely fictitious view of time and space.
Click to expand...

When will someone make non fiction game about time and space? Make it the life and times of Einstein... RPG with light puzzle elements.
 
T

Toxi

Banned
Hazmat said:
The last three hours of Bioshock Infinite are hands-down the worst three hours in any of the Bioshock games. The combat is terrible, the story is stupid, and the ending is just something not great that someone wrote masquerading as being profound because it dealt with a completely fictitious view of time and space.
Click to expand...
The middle-to-late part of the game is actually where I'd say the gameplay is at its worst. Ludicrous amounts of linear backtracking, the novelty of the mechanics wears off, the enemies start getting ridiculously tanky, and you don't yet have the upgraded late game vigors that make the combat tolerable.

Also Lady Comstock, the worst boss in first person shooter history.
 
U

UCBooties

Member
Darknessbear said:
It was incredible, really well done and a game story that felt actually fleshed out and interesting to follow.

People love to hate it because their necessant need to fulfill their going against the popular crowd ego, outweighs actual good craftsmanship and story-telling.

Plus shitting on game stories and never giving an examples of game stories that are good is the easiest way to express a profound opinion on the internet.

(Not saying anyone here is like that, I know some people)
Click to expand...

All criticism is based on ego? That's the only reason someone could dislike the game?

The game has shoddy craftsmanship because they overscoped and scrapped things until they had something 75 percent done and the publisher forced them to put a bow on it and ship it. That's why you have the nonsensical weapon limit, useless upgrades system, bizarre hub levels turned into corridors, and a final encounter that's nothing more than waves of dudes stretched over like an hour. The game is half baked both technically and narratively.

As for better story-telling in games, Spec Ops: the Line handles the theme of deconstructing America's hero complex far better than Bioshock Infinite.

Complicated said:
It's a great example of the right way to weave together a story with a complex structure. It would be impressive if it was a movie. The fact that they were able to do it in a video game, and one that isn't excessively linear and controlled, is insanely impressive.

Edit: I'm sure a lot of people prefer straightforward storytelling, which I understand. Most media like this (Inception is a good example) tends to draw very similar criticism from people who call it nonsensical. 99% of games do a bad job telling straightforward stories. I loved Bioshock Infinite because it does an amazing job telling a complex story.
Click to expand...

Hands down, the worst part about trying to talk about BI is this argument that people who don't like the story just don't understand its complexities. It's not a complex story, it's a simple story that's very poorly told because the writers couldn't be consistent.

Inception is a well made watch. Its rules are established and as the movie unfolds the rules are used to drive the action and tension. The ambiguity of the ending reinforces the themes of the movie and invites discussion and repeat viewings.

Bioshock Infinite is a Rube Goldberg machine that's missing a few essential pieces in the middle and falls apart.

The worst part is I would bet that there was originally a plan to tie things together and close the loops they opened, but they just didn't have time to pull it off because they had to rush to finish it.
 
T

TI82

Banned
AllenShrz said:
Good lord. No, just no.
Click to expand...

Posts like that I just can't tell if they are joking or serious. Lady Comstock is easily one of the worst parts of a AAA FPS title, as a game it's horrible and as a story it's so mediocre and half baked.

Like... do these people not read books/watch shows/movies?
 
K

Kevin Shields

Member
Toxi said:
The middle-to-late part of the game is actually where I'd say the gameplay is at its worst. Ludicrous amounts of linear backtracking, the novelty of the mechanics wears off, the enemies start getting ridiculously tanky, and you don't yet have the upgraded late game vigors that make the combat tolerable.

Also Lady Comstock, the worst boss in first person shooter history.
Click to expand...

I probably still liked her better than the boss of Bio 1 but yea, not a great idea. That section was worse of the game even though I did enjoy finding out more about the fate of Lady Comstick but the whole ghost thing was unnecessary to say the least.
 
R

ronaldthump

Member
I don't remember the last 3 hours. In fact, I remember very little about the game. Now that I think about it (something something
parallel universes
).. zzzz

so..

I'd disagree. dull and boring it was.
 
G

george_us

Member
Anything that involved murdering waves of dudes were my least favorite parts of Infinite. Strangely enough the first couple of hours were my favorite parts.
 
T

Tarextherex

Banned
Right, the only segment in a game where you feel like you're going something other than clearing enemy waves while following a story(because in the end you have more vigors to use/actual strategies during the battle on the boat) is supposed to be gaming at its best

The big revelation was just an infodump too. Even besides the writing itself, it's not at all a good example of narrative in videogames because again, despite the whole timeline jumping the whole game always felt the same, you clear enemy waves in rooms while listening to dialogue. If the game had a more deliberate pacing to it, it would have did a better job of conveying emotion. For example, a common criticism with the game would be how stilted it felt with the whole "but the Vox are actually just as bad" plot twist. Well what it you actually interacted with them/had different objectives during that part of the game so that twist would have felt actually shocking or something. Iirc you barely interact with the main villain as well, that's how the whole ending twist didn't feel convincing either. That's why so many people didn't even care about the story, meanwhile a bunch of less elaborate "videogame stories" felt more impactful simply because the pacing of the games themselves supported the story
 
I

IcyStorm

Member
The game tries to seem big and thoughtful with its themes but it fails to say anything meaningful. It ends up resorting to the "HEY BOTH SIDES ARE NOT SO GOOD" and tosses all that aside in favor of the whole time travel stuff.
 
J

Jumeira

Banned
I couldn't make it past 2 hours, the gunplay is some of the worst Ive played. But then, all I did was play Halo 3 back then so everything felt shit next to it tbh.
 
M

MikeBreezy92

Member
Linkark07 said:
This is exactly my main complaint of Infinite. If it tried to do a critique to racism, nationalism and religion, it failed miserably. Daisy and the Vox were just as crazy and evil as Comstock and his followers.

As a science fiction game, it also failed hard with the multiple timelines and the ending.
Click to expand...


That's not what it was trying to do.

It was window dressing just like vigors and such.
 
F

ForkNetwork

Banned
The ending is fantastic and that final stretch is great. But it also has a really underwhelming "final boss". I wouldnt call the last 3 hours gaming at its best, but I would say the ending is one of the best ones I've seen in a game.
 
T

TheSpaceBetween

Member
Not at all. I really only loved the first third of the game or so. There were moments here and there after that point that were good, but overall not so much. What a complete and utter disappointment the Boys of Silence and the "Sirens" were.

MikeBreezy92 said:
Why are people so obsessed about stuff that wasn't released.
Click to expand...

Because the game was terribly misrepresented in previews and people were upset they didn't get what was promised.
 
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