Jesus, 4 player simultaneous gameplay support has been the established standard for party games as far back since at least far back as the N64. MS isn't stupid. If they could do it, they would, and then you would see Dance Central, Kinect Sports, Kinect Adventure, and Joy Ride all supporting 4 player modes.
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Kinect creators say technology supports only two players at a time
- Thread starter Ignis Fatuus
- Start date
InaudibleWhispa said:
Two million people suggest otherwise.
Dancing along outside of the game is different to having an avatar represent your motions inside the game.
(And yes, this operates on the hypothetical that Just Dance actually works, but you get the point.)
In any case, I'm quite amazed that people are trying to brush this limitation off as some insignificant matter.
Edit: To look at the dance genre as an example, it's clear from how inaccurate Just Dance can be that the appeal of the game lies outside of the fact that it's an accurate dancing game. Given then that the other main feature of the game is its simultaneous multiplayer, it doesn't seem incredible to me that a game where only two people can play at a time is less appealing than one where four people can play at a time.
Maleficence
Member
gerg said:
That suggests it's successful, not good.
InaudibleWhispa
Member
Out of the top 10 best selling Wii games, 9 are multiplayer focused. Of those, four allow 4 player simultaneous play by default. In the top 5, 1 game supports it aside from Wii Sports and Wii Sports Resort which together contain 17 mini games, of which 2 support it. So basically, as I've been saying all along, the vast majority of casual Wii multiplayer gaming is done with 2 or less players at a time, or with people taking turns.manueldelalas said:
That suggests that dancing games are popular. 49/100 at Metacritic suggests that the game is awful.gerg said:
Alx
Member
JaggedSac said:
I should have read the complete source earlier, but it looks like you're right :
So the standard Primesense camera embeds a chip that does the processing, but is limited to 2 complete skeleton analysis, while the kinect outputs only the depth map and also the human detections (which is not limited to 2 persons according to the other statement).
It's still probable that there is a limitation on what can be processed on the 360 (like this dancing game that could only manage two players), but it put the OP in another light...
To get it on the new page:
And to add something:
From PrimeSense.com:
They are speaking about THEIR middleware solution for tracking people, not Kinect's. So unless you think MS is licensing PrimeSense their Kinect software to be used in other devices, they were not speaking about MS's solution.
JaggedSac said:
And to add something:
From PrimeSense.com:
They are speaking about THEIR middleware solution for tracking people, not Kinect's. So unless you think MS is licensing PrimeSense their Kinect software to be used in other devices, they were not speaking about MS's solution.
Maleficence said:
Of course, the majority isn't always right.
However, I'd still argue that Just Dance is a very well-designed piece of software, which is thus reflected in its popularity.
InaudibleWhispa said:
See above.
I also wouldn't put the mostly 18-35 year-old men that construct gaming "journalism" in a good position to try and judge the quality of a game like Just Dance.
(Edit: And, of course, for many games a lack of four-player multiplayer may not be important. But the fact that there are games with combined sales of, what, 40+ million units should suggest that it is nevertheless a significant feature.)
richman555
Member
Nintendo wanted 4 person multiplayer (local not online) from day 1. This really has worked well in my opinion and has gotten families together playing video games. There does need to be more games that fit this genre and it sells well.
That being said, I still don't think Sony is targeting casuals with their Move controllers. They will hook their devices up with the FPS and Sports titles. Essentially they will be moving motion based gaming into the non casual market. This really isn't a bad idea since I think most of the targeted audience who buys PS3s are not your casual types.
Microsoft paints a very unclear picture. Kinect appears directed right at casual audiences but nothing indicates Microsoft is very good at doing this. Like the PS3, the 360 generally caters to the non casual audience.
That being said, I still don't think Sony is targeting casuals with their Move controllers. They will hook their devices up with the FPS and Sports titles. Essentially they will be moving motion based gaming into the non casual market. This really isn't a bad idea since I think most of the targeted audience who buys PS3s are not your casual types.
Microsoft paints a very unclear picture. Kinect appears directed right at casual audiences but nothing indicates Microsoft is very good at doing this. Like the PS3, the 360 generally caters to the non casual audience.
A Twisty Fluken
Member
Wow, people here will literally defend and downplay anything, won't they?
You don't need to buy 4 controllers. When we have a gathering of friends we'll just get the Wii owners to bring extra controllers. And when we decide to pop in FIFA and have some 7 players action, we make sure the PS3 owners would bring a couple extra controllers each.
Limiting games to 2 players is just a major failure no matter how much you spin it.
Limiting games to 2 players is just a major failure no matter how much you spin it.
Segata Sanshiro
Member
The fatherless have nothing else to do today.A Twisty Fluken said:
rollingstart
Banned
I'm having trouble believing a lot of the negative stuff about Kinect because it seems like one huge oversight by Microsoft. I mean, this is a major thing for microsoft, right? it sounds borderline broken with all these rumors. Unless they're desperate, and I don't see why they would be, why are they putting so much behind this seemingly broken product?
And people are saying this thing is $150, well, that's if you own a 360. Move will have the same problem. I don't know if they'll have a bundle, but it will be more $300 or $350 to get the complete package on the 360, and I believe that is with one of the arcade units. I don't know if they think the install base of Call of Duty and Halo players will adopt this or people will buy the whole kit. Either way, how could this giant company really be selling snake oil like this? that's why I'm at least hoping these rumors are false. It sounds too ridiculous to be true.
And people are saying this thing is $150, well, that's if you own a 360. Move will have the same problem. I don't know if they'll have a bundle, but it will be more $300 or $350 to get the complete package on the 360, and I believe that is with one of the arcade units. I don't know if they think the install base of Call of Duty and Halo players will adopt this or people will buy the whole kit. Either way, how could this giant company really be selling snake oil like this? that's why I'm at least hoping these rumors are false. It sounds too ridiculous to be true.
Tom Penny said:
Even disregarding the marketing prowess of the two companies, I certainly think Kinect is easier to market. To some degree, it markets itself since it is 'new'. I'm sure the casual market will eat it up in terms of thinking it's cool. The question is, will they want to pay for it - particularly versus the Wii? I think it will be a hard sell, especially when nearly everyone has work-of-mouth about how fun the Wii can be in the casual market.
Re-read my post. I specifically said Move is in a WORSE position in terms of targeting casuals that are looking to buy from scratch.
What I said is Move is in a far better position to sell to current owners than Kinect is. So when taken as a whole ... I disagree with your assertion that Kinect will 'outsell Move by a shitload'.
CoG said:
Yeah, probably.
I feel bad for the engineers. I'm sure they went into this expecting dedicated HW, and then at some point management said, "this will cost too much, make it work without it". Engineers response, "...".
Sadly, that feeling is all too familiar to me.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
NutJobJim said:
Kinect is aimed at me. I am not afraid to admit that I've become a complete casual player. The reason why I bought a Wii? Because I got together with a bunch of friends and they had a Wii with Wii Sports. Had a blast drinking and playing 4 player games.. thought to myself.. i'd like to have a Wii for parties. Beyond actual advertisements.. word of mouth and the party thing is how the Wii got so popular.
The Faceless Master
Member
it doesn't have to beat the 360 in raw power or even be particularly close in power to a general purpose processor if it's designed properly and is just better at crunching Natal data only.Alx said:
Castle Doctrine
Member
Novelty is going to sell Kinect at the outset. None of the issues brought up in these threads are going to have an impact...at first.
Long term however, I don't know. I think it'll probably do well. It's not for the hardcore let's face it. If that Kinectimals thing, for example, catches on with kids especially young girls, and "all my friends have it", then forget it, Kinect is going to sell by the boatload. Same thing if that dance game or a fitness game catches on with moms and families.
I think Move is going to do okay over the long term but it lacks the controller-free novelty. More accuracy isn't enough to get people too excited. We'll see how Sorcery turns out, that might be cool.
Still, it bothers me that MS got away with faking shit at their conference, and all this deceptive marketing. MS is Teflon Don this gen and it never ceases to amaze me the shit they get away with. Give em credit, they know how to market and play the game.
edit: Besides good games, it's one of the reasons the Wii did so well. It's like a piece of furniture that every family on the block must have. You're not an official family if you don't have a Wii. lol.
Long term however, I don't know. I think it'll probably do well. It's not for the hardcore let's face it. If that Kinectimals thing, for example, catches on with kids especially young girls, and "all my friends have it", then forget it, Kinect is going to sell by the boatload. Same thing if that dance game or a fitness game catches on with moms and families.
I think Move is going to do okay over the long term but it lacks the controller-free novelty. More accuracy isn't enough to get people too excited. We'll see how Sorcery turns out, that might be cool.
Still, it bothers me that MS got away with faking shit at their conference, and all this deceptive marketing. MS is Teflon Don this gen and it never ceases to amaze me the shit they get away with. Give em credit, they know how to market and play the game.
edit: Besides good games, it's one of the reasons the Wii did so well. It's like a piece of furniture that every family on the block must have. You're not an official family if you don't have a Wii. lol.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
X26 said:
Seriously.
It's getting pretty ridiculous how 'casual' is becoming a synonym for 'utterly retarded, buys any old shit has no fucking clue'.
'Casuals' are looking for different forms of entertainment in their games than the traditional killfests typified by the gaming industry, it doesn't mean they're some form of uncritical subspecies who buy whatever advertising tells them to.
Or did I miss You're In The Movies becoming a huge breakout hit despite its massive technical problems and fundamental lack of fun?
The Faceless Master
Member
ice cold.Segata Sanshiro said:
manueldelalas
Time Traveler
True, and not only that. Consider the amount of "intelligent" "hardcore" "gamers" that buy all games on launch date and open them a year later, and have this huge friggin' backlog of games; it's like they love to waste money.MrNyarlathotep said:
Add to that, "gamers" that get the most expensive version of Halo to get a helmet thing, or buy all three consoles + a gamer's PC (== fucking expensive PC) + all the handhelds. All those that purchased the Horse Armor, all of you that are applauding paid online on consoles.
All of those guys sleeping outside a store to not miss a console or game launch.
I can understand some of those things, but calling other people stupid or treating them like retards (even though they have a lot more of common sense) is just wrong.
Alx said:
I think it for sure has the 2 people limitation. Atleast for launch. For example
This is from the company itself
"Zumba instructor, the stage transforms into a high voltage party atmosphere with special effects and additional crowd dancers. Players can also grow that party at home with up to four players on Wii and PlayStation Move, and up to two players on Kinect for Xbox 360. "
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...-96337804.html
So 4 for PS3 and WII but only two for 360. Why only two for 360. Especially since other two have 4 players.
The Faceless Master
Member
yeah, casual gamers may be ill-informed, but they're not fucking stupid. word of mouth will save or kill it.MrNyarlathotep said:
Agreed the whole "you aren't the target market you don't understand" is a damage control statement wii got popular from word of mouth and playing with friends, if you can't play sitting or only two people it's not going to get the word of mouth. Casuals does not equal functionally retardedMrNyarlathotep said:
Dead Man Typing
Member
Microsoft should probably have left the processor in the unit. It would have been able to take some of the load off of the 360 for processing 4 sets of data points that 4 player modes would require.
The final price better be low enough to justify whatever sacrifices have been made to the final experience. I don't think sitting down is a matter of processing power though, I think that's just an issue with interpreting the data when a body is touching some other object.
Clock is ticking Microsoft.
The final price better be low enough to justify whatever sacrifices have been made to the final experience. I don't think sitting down is a matter of processing power though, I think that's just an issue with interpreting the data when a body is touching some other object.
Clock is ticking Microsoft.
If true, selling this thing will be a pain in the ass.
"So, we want that camera thing for Xbox. Is there any games the whole family can play?"
"Well, there's these games here, but the camera only supports two people at once."
"...So, any Wiis in stock?"
"Yeah."
"Okay, one of those, three more controllers and let me pay off my Call of Duty pre order."
"So, we want that camera thing for Xbox. Is there any games the whole family can play?"
"Well, there's these games here, but the camera only supports two people at once."
"...So, any Wiis in stock?"
"Yeah."
"Okay, one of those, three more controllers and let me pay off my Call of Duty pre order."
I agree - this attitude about what "casual" players are like and will buy is actually pretty reminiscent of the early days of the Wii. "Let's create tons of crap, poorly developed shovelware games! People like my mom and my sister are SO STUPID they'll buy anything! . . . hey, why aren't we making millions like Nintendo?"MrNyarlathotep said:
If you disrespect your audience, or more importantly, don't understand your audience, you're in big trouble. In many ways, no one has "the casuals" figured out, even Nintendo. Why did "Just Dance" succeed where others failed? Why "Carnival Games"? But I think focusing on the success of random breakout hits sort of ignores the steady stream of hits that Nintendo has been producing - well thought-out, quality software (easy to get into, difficult to master, can accommodate a range of skill levels) that is supported by marketing, but also by word of mouth. Certainly, if you throw enough marketing dollars at something, people will buy it in the short-term - but there has to be something there if you want to sustain any sort of success.
Hypereides
Member
beast786 said:
Going by this and joyride supporting 2 at max seems to prove its true.
Any other multiplayers games out there? How many does Dance Central support? After reading this Im in disbelief that those two background dancers were actually playing the game on the MS E3 stage.
Dead Man Typing said:
Obviously it was a cost consideration. Assuming this thing is really at $150, it would have probably been $200 or more with the processor.
I'm sure they ran some numbers and decided they'd sell/make more if it was cheaper, even with some gimping.
Alx
Member
Dead Man Typing said:
From the latest interpretation of the Primesense declarations, the processor in the unit was limiting just as much (if not more ?) the number of completely tracked users... maybe you're thinking of a hybrid solution, with 2 players tracked by the camera and 2 in software, but that would be an ugly design, create hellish synchronization problems and would be impossible to upgrade.
I think that in the light of the limitations of the Primesense chip, it was a good decision to drop it. At least there is a potential of software evolution to enhance the performances of the device.
I would imagine by the time this get's launched these things will be ironed out.
Look how far it's come since it was first announced. Also most of the family or party games that I can think of allow four + players but not together. for example bowling, Archery and monopoly type games.
Anyway, I am going to reserve my judgement untill the final product ships. becuase at the moment it's pure speculation.
Look how far it's come since it was first announced. Also most of the family or party games that I can think of allow four + players but not together. for example bowling, Archery and monopoly type games.
Anyway, I am going to reserve my judgement untill the final product ships. becuase at the moment it's pure speculation.
lowlylowlycook
Member
NYR said:
I know I'm really, really late and not caught up, but this is one of the funniest attempts at damage control I've ever read.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Razor210 said:
Yeah, because 'casuals' always go out and buy gaming hardware day one.
Bending_Unit_22
Member
Pretty much what I think, assuming these problems aren't fixed. Though I doubt Kinectimals will do well longterm either, especially not with Nintendogs+cats. The whole pet simulator just seems a genre best suited to portables (similar to other "social" games like Animal Crossing and Monster Hunter). I don't think the price will really play much of a role longterm beyond how big the initial blow out is.The-Warning said:
I fully expect the hype train and Microsoft's epic marketing to cause it to be one of the must have toys this Christmas. The issue is when people realize get it and realize it's not a Wii-killer since you can't sit and play, only 2 can play at the same time, they have to rearrange their living rooms in many cases, it's nigh useless for games outside of a limited number of genres, and where's Mario Kart? My guess is this will be the short-term gimmicky motion control fad many hardcore gamers thought the Wii would be.
What is the lesson of the Wii is and how it applies to Kinect?bj00rn_ said:
Ditto.brain_stew said:
Yeah, I think that's pretty much it. The Wii is a system everyone can play (though for various reasons some may choose not to but it's not a hard limitation from the Wii). Particularly with the casuals there is far more than just Wii Sports and jumping around with up to 1 other person in a game.amtentori said:
The problem with Kinect is it's not for everyone or close to it. Once you apply the hard limitations it rapidly whittles down who could play it for a long time to little girls without a 3DS and couples who want to jump around together in casual games with better visuals than the Wii. Also of course technophiles who have to have everything and 360 owners who have $150 to spend on a different style of movie/menu controls. I'm sure you can find other small groups, but a patchwork of blue tidal pools does not a blue ocean make.