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Japan going back to its roots according to Tales producer
- Thread starter cosmicblizzard
- Start date
HolyBaikal
Banned
It's hard to get more Japanese than Mega Man. Including early Mega Man.
Now tell me that doesn't look straight out of a manga.
Now tell me that doesn't look straight out of a manga.
Since Japanese Devs are going to be making more "Japanese" games, I don't think we'll be seeing an influx of PC ports because western gamers won't be interested and therefore Japanese devs won't be interested. If Dark Souls didn't sell well in the west, do you think From would give a hoot about a PC port?
oconnomiyaki
Member
Yeah,I guess it's subjective. As a child, Mega Man didn't feel Japanese to me. It was no different than any Saturday morning cartoon in aesthetics and theme. But of course I didn't really know of Japan then, and it's hard to see it objectively with fresh eyes now. But the first game that really felt Japanese to me (or at least slightly foreign) was Story of Thor.
But then not too many JRPGs ever made it to Europe.
HolyBaikal
Banned
What makes you say that?
Riddle me this: What was the most recent "very Japanese" game that sold millions (Excluding Nintendo first-party stuff)? FF13?
Why are we excluding Nintendo?
Because we will never, ever, ever, ever see a Nintendo game on a PC?
Let's ask a counter question: does it matter if a game sells a million so long as it's profitable? They're competing for money, not popularity, and if you're not spending the cash you would on a CoD, GTA, or Elder Scrolls then you don't need their sales either.
That, and we're talking about PC. Most publishers period that want millions of sales are looking at consoles for that, not PC.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Welcome to WRPGs this generation.
Keep in mind that most of these Japanese games have Japan as their primary market. Releasing a PC version to a nonexistent market would flat out not be profitable to them.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Everything Baba said in that quote is right on the money. Japanese developers that tried to imitate the west, mostly made shitty "me too" titles while totally compromising their own point of view. (Which I prefer to western games anyway.) I think it'll just be best if each region is encouraged to cultivate their own style instead of carbon copying each-other.
There are very, very few games that are million sellers on the PC, especially if they have a console version. The only one I can think of is Witcher 2 and Diablo 3 (though this has caused immense damage to Blizzard's image).
HolyBaikal
Banned
I don't think it is so important that they sell over a million copies so much as they grab a decent portion of the market that is there. Tales of the Abyss DS likely didn't sell a million copies, but it was worth porting. Over 100,000 is pretty decent.
As long as there's a market there, people will buy it. Hardly anyone bought the PC Mega Man titles because copies were so obscure. The market is different, and thanks to services like Steam, if they did they'd sell loads of copies. Digital Distribution is starting to get a least a little somewhere for the PC, as well. Definitely smaller than the juggernaut it is in the West, but it's a slow start.
And in the West, Recettear has sold probably over 200,000 copies by now. I certainly think that the lack of jRPGs on the PC certain must have contributed to that number at least a little bit. If anything, PC sales could breath new life into multiple console titles.
And if this generation of consoles will be on x86 hardware, then that will save them a lot of money to make the effort of porting their games to the PC.
As long as there's a market there, people will buy it. Hardly anyone bought the PC Mega Man titles because copies were so obscure. The market is different, and thanks to services like Steam, if they did they'd sell loads of copies. Digital Distribution is starting to get a least a little somewhere for the PC, as well. Definitely smaller than the juggernaut it is in the West, but it's a slow start.
And in the West, Recettear has sold probably over 200,000 copies by now. I certainly think that the lack of jRPGs on the PC certain must have contributed to that number at least a little bit. If anything, PC sales could breath new life into multiple console titles.
And if this generation of consoles will be on x86 hardware, then that will save them a lot of money to make the effort of porting their games to the PC.
CarpeFulgur's been doing OK and XSEED seemed to do pretty well with Ys on Steam. Why insist on being so pessimistic?
those are not game developers, they are localisers, Falcom were one of the staunchest supporters of PC for years, decades even, PC is not some new amazing opportuinity they have never heard of before, it's a platform they already had to leave because it couldnt support them.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Megaman is basically Astroboy: The Videogame. Sometimes we forget that. And Astroboy was a quintissential foundation of anime.
Even as a small child, we all knew the box was kind of a mismatched sham of what was actually in the game. Not only the actual sprite looked cartoony, but the face on the character select screen, weapon get scenes, etc.
Are the 100,000 sold US or Japanese sales?
grandjedi6
Master of the Google Search
Is this the game where you discount any examples people bring up because you don't find them "very Japanese" enough? Or that they don't reach your arbitrary "millions" definition?
HolyBaikal
Banned
The Ys coming to a handheld exclusively is a strange thing.
However, it's hard to believe that now, of all times, would be worse than ever to develop for the PC. As currently, the platform seems more popular than it has been in years.
Is there a statement by Falcom themselves about this? I think if so they might start to change their minds when they see sales numbers the Ys: Oath in Felghana and Ys Orgins localization by XSEED has surely gotten them.
I hear claims all of the time that the PC is now "dead" in Japan, as if it is suddenly less popular there than ever before. Because of Falcom's decision to make their first handheld exclusive title ever. But I've never come across a statement from them claiming they think the PC is now less popular in Japan than ever or anything like that.
And to the counterexample of Falcom, several (formerly)handheld exclusive titles like ClaDun X2 and Half-Minute Hero have been ported to the PC.
No I meant i'm sounding like one
I think alot of people missed the part where you said a shrunken overworld (Blue Dragon, classic FF, Tales, Ni no kuni) wouldnt fit XIII, and thought you just meant a normal overworld wouldnt fit."Millions" was a bad word to use, but if the devs do make a PC version, it would need to sell enough to justify the PC port. It would need to sell enough overseas because the PC market is pretty much nonexistent in Japan.
Whoops, misinterpreted that. Still, the original statement was about western interest, and the PC market isn't nonexistent there. Plus if a port's easy it's extra money, I don't really expect them if it's an absurd pain or takes special advantage of the native platform.
grandjedi6
Master of the Google Search
All of which is true. But there are at least 4 publishers of japanese games (Capcom, Sega, Namco, Xseed) that are trying to broaden the level of pc support. So I say "baby steps" was an appropriate appraisal of the situation.
Hmm, Namco? Do they have anything on the horizon for PC other than Dark Souls 2?
And Xseed, bless their souls, but they can really only localize what's already available so their options are very limited.
Reluctant-Hero
Member
Quoted for truth.
But western gamers who are fans of Japanese games need to vote with their wallets on day one as long as they can afford to do so.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Yup. It's like French film trying to be Hollywood.
This is it right here. The "West" serves as a convenient scapegoat and punching dummy any time a Japanese organization with any kind of international presence needs an excuse for failure. Even today, in 2013, you still hear Japanese companies blaming the "Lehman shock" of several years ago for totally unrelated problems that persist to this day. Baseball teams will heap blame on their foreign import players so as to paper over the other problems that, if pointed out honestly, would put important people in difficult positions.
Doubling down on "Japaneseness" isn't going to accomplish much if you're tying to solve problems that aren't problems while ignoring things that are problems.
No, you saw it correctly. There are plenty of Japanese game designers who can integrate native and Western concepts to create something that pulls from the strengths of both -- Matsuno games, Demon's Souls, and Nier come to mind -- but SE isn't doing that now. They have a "Western" section (Eidos/Deus Ex, plus they publish Ubi stuff like AC) and a "Japanese" section (Toriyama), with fanbases that barely intersect.
Reluctant-Hero
Member
OP listed the prime example in Baba's quote; Quantum Theory.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Yeah as I was arguing, this thread isn't really about jRPGs, even though people keep bringing up Square Enix
That's one game, and its not even a JRPG either. Since when did a producer for a JRPG series become the authority on Japanese game development in all genres?
This probably applies to a lot more games and genres than ever this generation.
To be really honest, other than badly-written emo storylines (which aren't unique to Japan), the only reason I ever called Japanese games "stale" in this day and age was because so many of them lack certain basic UI and control elements common to western console games these days. Back during the PS2 era it took a while for Japanese developers to grasp how to implement a controllable 3rd person camera, much less one with an inverted Y axis. Being stuck with things like tank controls, fixed camera angles, stationary save points, and other relics of the SNES era I think are mainly at the core of what pissed off myself and others about Japanese games.
When you look at most Japanese console games this gen, they seem to have pretty much figured that shit out. With the exception of earlier games, most current gen console JRPGs have abandoned turn-based battles. Most Japanese console games I've played in the last few years have controls not all that different from most western 3rd party games. Even incredibly niche games like Yakuza figured this stuff out with the HD leap. More importantly, so many Japanese console games did this without losing the identity in their games.
I haven't played it beyond the demo but look at Siren Blood Curse. It's as much a Japanese survival horror game as any of its predecessors as well as all their brethren on the PS2. Yet, it's controls aren't that dissimilar from today's 3rd person shooters. That's really all I've wanted through the years -- game design that Japan is good at with controls and UI that actually feel appropriate for modern 3D console games.
The difference is that FFX had what felt like an actual RPG world. You could travel back and forth throughout it. The game had actual NPCs you could talk to as well as towns, inns, side quests, etc. FFXIII was literally a battle corridor. The problem with the game mechanically was that its battle system, as good as it was, couldn't hold up the entire experience on its own. It was light on gameplay.
I don't even think we can call out FFXIII as some kind of future evolution path for JRPGs. Just looking at the game's postmortem reveals how fucked up its development cycle was. FFXIII is barely a fully-formed game, much less a fully-formed Final Fantasy. XIII-2 is probably closer to Square Enix's vision for RPGs in the future.
When you look at most Japanese console games this gen, they seem to have pretty much figured that shit out. With the exception of earlier games, most current gen console JRPGs have abandoned turn-based battles. Most Japanese console games I've played in the last few years have controls not all that different from most western 3rd party games. Even incredibly niche games like Yakuza figured this stuff out with the HD leap. More importantly, so many Japanese console games did this without losing the identity in their games.
I haven't played it beyond the demo but look at Siren Blood Curse. It's as much a Japanese survival horror game as any of its predecessors as well as all their brethren on the PS2. Yet, it's controls aren't that dissimilar from today's 3rd person shooters. That's really all I've wanted through the years -- game design that Japan is good at with controls and UI that actually feel appropriate for modern 3D console games.
The difference is that FFX had what felt like an actual RPG world. You could travel back and forth throughout it. The game had actual NPCs you could talk to as well as towns, inns, side quests, etc. FFXIII was literally a battle corridor. The problem with the game mechanically was that its battle system, as good as it was, couldn't hold up the entire experience on its own. It was light on gameplay.
I don't even think we can call out FFXIII as some kind of future evolution path for JRPGs. Just looking at the game's postmortem reveals how fucked up its development cycle was. FFXIII is barely a fully-formed game, much less a fully-formed Final Fantasy. XIII-2 is probably closer to Square Enix's vision for RPGs in the future.
I just finished Binary Domain, and it was a lot more interesting to me than Gears of War. Breaking apart robots is so fun and Big Bo is awesome (ostensibly).
IC_Champion
Member
Japan saved gaming in the 80s. I will be forever grateful to them.
Going back to making the same old games is not going to make the industry more diverse.
SolidSnakex
Member
Who said anything about making the same old games? Look back at what Japan was doing, particularly in the PSone and PS2 generations. There was a ton of variety, and with a lot of quirky and genuinely great titles like Parappa, Incredible Crisis, Chulip etc. It's hard for games like that to be developed when a publisher is just chasing certain genres.
Namco are porting that Ace Combat game, and I assume other titles from their backlog if that's successful as well. Dark Souls seemed to open to door for them.
I think we can. But it's an evolutionary dead end, I believe Jeremy Parish remarked before that it was the logical endpoint of the cinematic driven JRPG, and I think after standing at that point it's time to back pedal as far away as fast as possible, and look at alternative routes. If you want to be generous perhaps something like Ni No Kuni could be viewed as a reset, going back to that sort of game design of 16-bit and 32-bit RPGs with a new battle system tacked on, a point to look and see how it can be grown from.
Incidentally, I think this is part of why something like Skyrim was HUGE: I expect a lot of people were drawn into RPGs like FFVII-IX because they were massive games with lots of stuff to do and with an engaging story, even if it was on a generally linear path that eventually opened up. I think Kitase and Toriyama felt the last point (engaging story) was more important than the others (massive with lots of stuff to do), so when they focus on a narrative driven adventure in favor of almost any semblance of being open (until you get a bunch of hunts to do in a giant field) it blows up in their faces, while Skyrim provides a HUGE world with lots of stuff to do that ends up appealing to a lot of people way more, even running away with the 40/40 in Famitsu that XIII couldn't quite reach. Come to think of it, I think GTA may be suffering a similar problem, except it knows the giant open world is integral at the very least.
ThreeSixty
December 16, 2009. 4:00 AM. THE LIGHT FIELD is the force. The mind. That guides. Controls.
It would be amazing to see if Japan can rise like a phoenix and return to their former glory. Even if only partially. I used to worship games from Japan (particularly in the SNES/Genesis era). I still think they're producing quality games. They're just in the shadow of super successful Western developers at the moment. Here's hoping Japan can rise again.
I suppose that depends on whether you thought what they were producing *before* was worthwhile.