• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Guerrilla Games: Regarding Killzone Shadow Fall and 1080p

vpance

vpance

Member
No_Style said:
This reminds me of Halo: Reach and its use of Temporal AA resulting in artifacting and other ghosting problems when in motion. People notice issues with these temporal techniques. They're clever but less than ideal, I hope GG doesn't utilize in their next title.
Click to expand...

Nothing is ideal, every way has its pros and cons.

If they pared back effects and detail to get to 1080p60 in MP, people would say it looks shitty and much worse than SP.

If they dropped to 720p60, they'd say it looks blurry.

If they kept it at 1080p30, they'd say it's too sluggish for MP.
 
C

chadskin

Member
zzz79 said:
The image signal which is send to the TV is 1080p, meas it counts 1920x1080 progressive pixels.

But the film information is held/stored only on 1920x800 pixels, means 280 black pixels are there, to fill up the full resolution to 1920x1080, but these pixles do not hold any information about the movie.

In your mindset a movie in 1920x280 with solid black bars a 400 pixels each would be also 1080p, just because the output signal of the BD player is 1920x1080 progressive.
Click to expand...

It's still native 1080p, no matter how you slice it.
 
J

jryi

Senior Analyst, Fanboy Drivel Research Partners LLC
TyrantII said:
If anything MS's devs will be taking a close look here, since it might mean a end to their vasaline covered image troubles.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if this technique benefits Xbox developers a lot, as I would imagine it requires quite a lot of memory bandwidth. (Anybody with better graphics programming understanding, feel free to correct me.)
 
N

NaDannMaGoGo

Member
Their rendering method for this does sound quite interesting and may be well worth it.

However, be honest and transparent about it. If you don't render every imagine in "fresh" 1080p but rather use some approximation methods that provide better performance for a somewhat acceptable loss of quality, fine. But when you're adamantly talking about resolution and stuff in the first place, then tell us what's exactly the case in an interview or s.th. else before launch.

I don't think calling it native 1080p is really appropriate when not only certain aspects of the visuals (like the mentioned lighting for example) but all the pixels themselves are affected by these round-about solutions.

Now I do understand that this stuff is rather in depths and telling the community it isn't native 1080p will immediately create much worse PR. Yet, I'll take underselling over overselling any time of the day. If you know what you're doing is better than e.g. upscaled 720p or 900p then give some tech site or so an interview about that. Those customers who can understand and value that stuff will be happy to spread the information. In the long run, that's how a company gets my respect. As opposed to retrospectively saying "yeh, well... I guess it's not 100% native 1080p, ya know?!"
 
S

Stallion Free

Cock Encumbered
Terbinator said:
Quite, although the quality of TAA in Reach was directly linked to FPS meaning the 30FPS cap limited how good that implementation was. I'm wondering if the same is true for SF.
Click to expand...

The lower the framerate the more likely there is to be an obvious visual difference between frames so yeah, it should hold true for SF.
 
N

No_Style

Member
REV 09 said:
The up scaling technique may be better, but they still were dishonest and misled everyone....even if they're trying to skirt around it. They knew what people expect "native" to mean. Unfortunately this may happen a lot this gen.
Click to expand...

I expect these kinds of techniques to crop up towards the end of the generation when resources are tight and developers want to push more and more. I didn't expect this stuff to occur now.

I'm not a fan of their weaseling around the definition of "native" either. It's like claiming to sell "100% freshly squeezed orange juice" but then admit that a handful of oranges were a little rotten. They're still freshly squeezed but come on, everyone expects it to be fresh oranges too.
 
T

TyrantII

Member
Saty said:
Is it still better than native 900p? I can see people seeing this technique as a move to cling to saying a game still technically runs at '1080' and that it can promote laziness by devs that wish to target 1080p.
Click to expand...

Its basically a ingenious way of providing a next gen dynamic resolution without the detail crushing need for scaling.

The less pixles change between frames, and the more predictable they are, the closer you get to the true 1080P image. Sitting still that's 99.9% in most cases.

Downfall is as you move and turn that drops since predictions isn't always correct. That blurs The image a tad, but at the same time a little blur while moving has become a standard post processing effect anyways.
 
C

chadskin

Member
sinnergy said:
Yeah then Ryse is also native 1080p, because Crytek, let's the engine scale and render the final image.. (it's their own software scaling algorithm. )

So Yerli was right ;)
Click to expand...

No, because it's internally rendered at 900p and upscaled to 1080p. No 1:1 pixel mapping.
 
EGOMON

EGOMON

Member
Even without GG explanation it was obvious that KZSF MP wasn't upscaled or sub-1080p because it looked really good that why no one noticed this technicality, it is the best looking MP FPS of the 3 we had at launch imo.
 
S

sinnergy

Member
chadskin said:
No, because it's internally rendered at 900p and upscaled to 1080p.
Click to expand...

But it's done in the engine ;) it's just like this trick from GG. the scaling doesn't happen on Xbox one hardware.. Only Crytek takes the 900p framebuffer and applies AA and scalling and GG takes multiple frames and information to get their final image.
 
C

chadskin

Member
zzz79 said:
At least you should read the articles of the links you are posting

Update:
Pessino added further information, explaining that the aspect ratio of the game is an artistic choice, and he doubts it’ll change at this point.
Click to expand...

What does the aspect ratio have to do with the internal resolution in this case? You really have no clue, do you?
 
Z

zzz79

Banned
chadskin said:
It's still native 1080p, no matter how you slice it.
Click to expand...

So is the output signal of every XBO game native 1080p :facepalm:

and even 1080i is native 1080 just the half of the lines are black ...

do you home work fanboy and I'm done with you :p
 
F

FLAguy954

Junior Member
Draft said:
Almost 60fps, almost 1080p, what a mess of compromises!
Click to expand...

Seriously. They failed to deliver on the "target" of 60 fps and their 1080i technique fails to deliver on the IQ front. Still, Guerrilla Games did a good job explaining the process, even if some of it sounds like PR bullshit.
 
T

Terbinator

Member
Darkologia said:
Even without GG explanation it was obvious that KZSF MP wasn't upscaled or sub-1080p because it looked really good that why no one noticed this technicality, it is the best looking MP FPS of the 3 we had at launch imo.
Click to expand...

The MP portion of the game was called out for being off compared to SP at launch. If you're getting fed the 1080p story by the dev you look like a chump if you keep asking questions.
 
E

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
sinnergy said:
But it's done in the engine ;) it's just like this trick from GG. the scaling doesn't happen on Xbox one hardware..
Click to expand...

The difference between scaling and temporal reprojection is not that one runs on hardware and the other does not. And both aren't native 1080p in the traditional sense. I know that terms are part of the console war's ammunition, but a match of capture-the-definition doesn't lead anywhere.
 
J

JoJo UK

Unconfirmed Member
So by GGs first definition does this mean that 1080i is really just 1080p, flipping the interlacing from horizontal to vertical, correct? Is there any explaination as to why interlacing on the vertical looks better than interlacing horizontally? I don't own FZ:SF (being an XB1 owner) however I would say the technology put in place by GG does (in my eyes) looks ok and sounds smart.*

*I had originally posted I preferred this but thinking about it I would take upscaling over motion blur.
 
P

ps3ud0

Member
Jack_AG said:
I'm floored at the responses from people who obviously haven't read the whole thing. That being said, it isnt 1080p and he brings up a good point about various systems in a game engine that might render some alpha, shading, lighting, etc at a lower resolution. If we are to apply the "non(insert resolution) stamp to KZSF - it should be applied to every game that uses techniques like these or similar. So... Pretty much all of them. Not defending GG but dude has a point.
Click to expand...
Yeah thats where my opinion lies that theres lots of games that people would consider native, which if they apply the same reasoning as they are to KZs MP right now couldnt be called native either.

Someone mentioned native 1080p vs true 1080p - maybe thats the wording we need to start using...

ps3ud0 8)
 
Oppo

Oppo

Member
plagiarize said:
Now we do, so hopefully developers will realize that they can't pull the wool over our eyes the same way.
Click to expand...

i really don't understand why some of you expected the back of the box to say... what? something like,

"Game resolution in multiplayer: 1080p*

*certain portions of the full 1080p image were created using super programming kungfu timetravelling pixels, so it may not be exactly what you expect normally"

Like, really? guess what most of videogames is smoke and mirrors. There's no wool here.

This is why the gaming audience is so tiresome occasionally.. Guerrilla were probably really proud of the celver solution they used to get nearly 60Hz at 1080p in multi and yet the fans scream YOU LIED TO US. It's bullshit frankly. On our part.
 
C

chadskin

Member
zzz79 said:
So is the output signal of every XBO game native 1080p :facepalm:

and even 1080i is native 1080 just the half of the lines are black ...

do you home work fanboy and I'm done with you :p
Click to expand...

God. Really? Sounds like you took some lessons with misterxmedia.

There's a difference between the resolution a game is internally rendered at and the video output of said game.
 
F

feint_ruled

Member
JoJo UK said:
So by GGs first definition does this mean that 1080i is really just 1080p, flipping the interlacing from horizontal to vertical, correct?
Click to expand...

No, an interlaced image has only half the lines per frame. This GG techinque has all the lines, but half of them are "guessed".
 
geordiemp

geordiemp

Member
zzz79 said:
So is the output signal of every XBO game native 1080p :facepalm:

and even 1080i is native 1080 just the half of the lines are black ...

do you home work fanboy and I'm done with you :p
Click to expand...

Wow, where to start.

Debate with people politely, be and play nice, you can disagree, but be respectful to others.
 
A

Andeeeh

Member
Well the the issue of resolution is vague and broad. I mean GG has some points about some games rendering certain elements at sub 1080p resolutions to increase performance and are still called "1080p".

Even films you see, aren't "1080p or 2k or 4k. Camera sensors don't give out that lines many lines of resolution when the debayering happens.

It is kinda of a grey area. But I do classify killzone multiplayer not 1080p. Still pretty smart of GG to come up with such a neat technique. I would rather all games use something like this then be upscaled.
 
old

old

Member
I give them credit for this new clever rendering trick. But that doesn't excuse them being intentionally misleading about what the resolution was.
 
R

Rainy Dog

Member
Grimløck;103359236 said:
i agree. this explanation, while interesting and innovative, shouldn't have been reactionary. they should have detailed the process during development.
Click to expand...

No they shouldn't. Most people are simply not interested in this stuff and developers have no duty to share every secret and facet of the innter workings of their tech if they don't want to.

What they shouldn't have done is come out and state 'runs at full native 1080p' if it didn't exactly do that without resorting to clever wizardry that's no more legitimately 1080p than upscaled 720p. Especially with all the other resolution shenanigans that were kicking off at the time.

If there wasn't such a fuss going on about this exact subject, then maybe they could be excused. But 'twas a bit naughty in my book.
 
G

Gestault

Member
That's a good explanation of their process, though I think something like this before the release (considering they made the point then to declare that the MP mode was native 1080p, 60 fps with fluctuations only during extreme scenarios) would have been appreciated even more.
 
A

Anion

Member
I think the bigger question is why they weren't up front about this. Clearly from the comments here, people see it as clever (and I agree), but it's kinda shady that they would hid this until now?
 
J

JoJo UK

Unconfirmed Member
feint_ruled said:
No, an interlaced image has only half the lines per frame. This GG techinque has all the lines, but half of them are "guessed".
Click to expand...
Cool thanks, so the method used by GG isn't the same 'interlacing' technique used when talking about 720p, 1080i, 1080p, etc?
TyrantII said:
Potato!

(What's with the juniors latetly)
Click to expand...
All gotta start somewhere! Did you manage to skip the junior phase?

EDIT: Nevermind, I can see you join 10 days before me...
 
Oppo

Oppo

Member
According to half this thread, the client-side network prediction in Quake is trickery and bullshit. Blu-ray compression is bullshit.

Only that mystical virgin 1080p image that springs forth fully-formed from Zeus' forehead is the true image. The rest is the work of the deeeeviiillll.
 
J

Jack cw

Member
zzz79 said:
At least you should read the articles of the links you are posting

Update:
Pessino added further information, explaining that the aspect ratio of the game is an artistic choice, and he doubts it’ll change at this point.
Click to expand...

What does the aspect ratio have to do with the framebuffer? Technically the game outputs a native 1080p picture. End of the story.
Edit: beaten by chadskin
 
T

TronLight

Everybody is Mikkelsexual
JoJo UK said:
Cool thanks, so the method used by GG isn't the same 'interlacing' technique used when talking about 720p, 1080i, 1080p, etc?
Click to expand...

They're not interlacing anything as far as I understood. They're repojecting old pixels, which is different.
 
D

Dragon

Banned
Glad they're being transparent now, but unfortunate they couldn't be before release. They do say they'll be better with this stuff in the future. Now onto that new IP please GG!
 
Q

quest

Not Banned from OT
Agent AA1 said:
I think the bigger question is why they weren't up front about this. Clearly from the comments here, people see it as clever (and I agree), but it's kinda shady that they would hid this until now?
Click to expand...

Come on that answer is easy they wanted the 1080p check box to fit the Sony narrative of how powerful the PS4 was. If that check box was less on its biggest first party title it would of not fit that narrative Sony was pushing.

I hate this technique because any sort of interlacing is going to look like crap in motion. I am part of the plasma master race in part because they handle motion a hell of a lot better than LCD. I don't want any game to use something that looks like garbage in motion.
 
J

JoJo UK

Unconfirmed Member
TronLight said:
They're not interlacing anything as far as I understood. They're repojecting old pixels, which is different.
Click to expand...
I get it now, as I said this does seem to give a better output than most upscaling, Ryse being an exception in my eyes for example. Hopefully this type of technology will be used by other developers going forward, if pure 1080p60fps cannot be achieved by normal means.
 
Z

zzz79

Banned
Jack cw said:
Like the movie, 280 vertical lines of pixels show now information because of the aspect ratio.

All of your non full HD xbone games have a de facto lower native res. So they have to be upscaled with interpolation to fill the screen.
Click to expand...

Ok, let's see:

A: 1920x800 game pixles + 1920x280 black pixles (no game info) IS native 1080p

B: 1600x900 game pixles + 320x180 artificial pixles (game info) IS NOT native 1080p

Right?

Both are not RENDERED at native 1080p! That's my point ... and I know A would be sharper than B, but still both are not native 1080p

btw. I don't have a XBO, neither a PS4 so chill out and watch out with your judgement ;)
 
Oppo

Oppo

Member
Dragon said:
Glad they're being transparent now, but unfortunate they couldn't be before release. They do say they'll be better with this stuff in the future. Now onto that new IP please GG!
Click to expand...

Agent AA1 said:
I think the bigger question is why they weren't up front about this. Clearly from the comments here, people see it as clever (and I agree), but it's kinda shady that they would hid this until now?
Click to expand...

Gestault said:
That's a good explanation of their process, though I think something like this before the release (considering they made the point then to declare that the MP mode was native 1080p, 60 fps with fluctuations only during extreme scenarios) would have been appreciated even more.
Click to expand...

All of you – give me an example of what they should have said. Please.

Like, what they should have said in interviews, what should be on the box, all of it. I am very curious.
 
C

coldfoot

Banned
*If the pixel is not very predictable, we pick the best value from neighbors in the current frame
Click to expand...
This is upscaling, so by this logic, GT5 and GT6 are also native 1080p.
All the bad decisions GG makes stems from trying to ape COD, they should've just went with 1080p30 for MP as well if they couldn't get to 60fps natively.
 
K

KoopaTheCasual

Junior Member
Pretty cool that they came out and said it's not native and went in depth with their technique. Do we have interviews prior to launch which they said native 1080p, or was that just Sony marketing/journalism spin?
 
S

Stallion Free

Cock Encumbered
Agent AA1 said:
I think the bigger question is why they weren't up front about this. Clearly from the comments here, people see it as clever (and I agree), but it's kinda shady that they would hid this until now?
Click to expand...

Probably because it sucks to say: "we didn't have enough dev time to really hit the marks we were told to hit (1080p60) in the time we were given (prior to the PS4 release, absolutely no delays allowed)."
 
Z

zzz79

Banned
Jack cw said:
What does the aspect ratio have to do with the framebuffer? Technically the game outputs a native 1080p picture. End of the story.
Edit: beaten by chadskin
Click to expand...

so what does the buffer of each XBO game have to do with native 1080p ???

The XBO sends a native 1920x1080 progressive signal to the TV ... so it's also native 1080p ?

No it's not ? aha, I see fanboy talks ...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Demo Tekken 8 By VG Tech (Xbox Series S/X)
13
1K
S0ULZB0URNE replied
VGTech: Assassin's Creed Mirage PS5 vs Xbox Series X|S Frame Rate Comparison
35
5K
SHA replied
The Talos Principle 2 PS5 vs XSX vs XSX By VGTech
36
3K
Bojji replied
Intel's Xess will get Frame Generation
Hardware
22
2K
Buggy Loop replied
[Vg Tech] Forza Motorsport Xbox Series X & Xbox Series S Frame Rate Comparison
Analysis Platform
49
2K
mckmas8808 replied
Top Bottom