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What's causing Switch games to be 900p on docked mode instead of 1080p?

S

ShadowFox08

Member
This is an on-going trend for both 1st and 3rd party games, particularly the more taxing games. Docked mode is 900p for many games, while portable is 720p. LoZ:Breath of the Wild, Super Mario Odyssey, Dragonball Xenoverse 2, and now Skyrim come to mind are only just a few examples that come to mind.

It's honestly a bit disappointing and embarrassing that Switch will more likely hit 900p than 1080p, despite the GPU in docked mode being 2.5x more powerful than portable, which from a GPU perspective should be more than enough(2.25x power is required to go from 720p to 1080p)

I'm assuming bandwidth is the main culprit here. I'm aware docked mode's bandwidth increase in docked isn't a 2.5x fold increase, but really marginal over portable. Just how much would be needed to render 1080p instead of 900p? I'm sure X2 pascal could do it, though even with double the bandwidth and RAM, and 1.5x the GPU (and CPU roughly?), the bandwidth is still abysmal.
 
B

bufkus

Member
not sure what the big deal is, do you even notice the difference between 900p and 1080p? it's clear that the underpowered-ness of the Switch is the reason why they have to lower the resolution sometimes.
 
C

cuate

Banned
They run extra graphical effects and enhancements in docked mode.(Better reflections/lighting, higher lod, stabler performance etc)

It's a dev choice.
 
W

Wonkytonky

Member
Disappointing and embarrassing, you say? I mean, is it really? Does it actually matter or make any difference, such a minuscule amount?

I think it does not.
 
S

ShadowFox08

Member
bufkus said:
not sure what the big deal is, do you even notice the difference between 900p and 1080p? it's clear that the underpowered-ness of the Switch is the reason why they have to lower the resolution sometimes.
Click to expand...

I can definitely see it on games like zelda and xenoverse 2. It's not the biggest deal, but 1080p is the more natural jump when Nintendo has the grunt to take care of it from the GPU side.
 
S

ShadowFox08

Member
cuate said:
They run extra graphical effects and enhancements in docked mode.(Better reflections/lighting, higher lod etc)
Click to expand...

Right, the GPU makes up for that, and it can also compensate for framerate to a certain extent. But I believe its the bandwidth that's causing the resolution to not go all the way to 1080p.

Bandwidth matters especially for 3rd party ports. Shit bandwidth and CPU being underpowered(or at least bandwidth) on Switch is one of the main reasons why there is a bigger gap in graphical effects and resolution than normal. It would have helped tremendously with games like DOOM.
 
S

ShadowFox08

Member
rodrigolfp said:
Same thing that causes 900p on PS4/XBO? Dev choice?
Click to expand...

No its been well known that the bandwidth of the Switch has been its biggest bottleneck. Just how much we don't know. Especially with checkerboard rendering. But the Switch doesn't have nearly enough as its competitors, and it could have allowed BOTW to be 1080p on the Switch.
 
C

cuate

Banned
ShadowFox08 said:
Right, the GPU makes up for that, and it can also compensate for framerate to a certain extent. But I believe its the bandwidth that's causing the resolution to not go all the way to 1080p.

Bandwidth matters especially for 3rd party ports. Shit bandwidth and CPU being underpowered(or at least bandwidth) on Switch is one of the main reasons why there is a bigger gap in graphical effects and resolution than normal. It would have helped tremendously with games like DOOM.
Click to expand...

Tiled rendering solves the bandwidth bottleneck issue. It's simply a dev choice.
 
G

GennadiyKorol

Neo Member
Wouldn't it be to improve battery life? Maybe their assumption was that when docked you are playing on a bigger screen and need higher resolution / better visuals than when in portable mode on a smaller screen.
 
Grylvak

Grylvak

Member
I'm curious is if's due to focusing on handheld mode first? The habit Nintendo has it to make the games run as well as they can on the base hardware, and then work on the docked version after. I don't have any knowledge on this type of thing but that's just my guess.
 
P

Peterc

Member
Its a handheld. Its 100 times smaller as your 4k tv.

Dont forget that the wiiu tablet was only 480p and i didn't dislike it.

This is a good question.

What do you prefer for Xbox1x?

-4k sometimes with slow framerate or downgrade effects for aaa games?
- 60fps locked but with half the res of 4k?
- next gen games because you want to be blown away but instead the game runs in 1080p.


For me it will definitely be option 3, because i want to be surprised. I don't want a game that looks slightly better but for the rest looks nothing new for me. I don't get why people are so hooked up on those small details instead of wants to go forwards and get even much better looking games like this:
https://youtu.be/oGvppTf5-b0



If you think about it, many are pushing 4k, even pc it's hard to push it.

There wouldn't be a next gen that isn't 4k. So think about it. When can we expect next gen that looks much better than Xbox1x and can play games in 60fps and 4k? Maybe in 7 years?

I'm happy with switch, if it can render 1080p, why not but if not, don't care. I'm happy it can play next gen games on a handheld and thats just amazing.
 
P

pretty done

Member
The Switch is weak and the dock is just upping the clocks. They should have made the dock have a GPU inside or something to provide a better console experience. It feels very last gen when docked for the lack of a better term.
 
S

SuomiDude

Member
pretty done said:
The Switch is weak and the dock is just upping the clocks. They should have made the dock have a GPU inside or something to provide a better console experience. It feels very last gen when docked for the lack of a better term.
Click to expand...
But when handheld, it feels like a next gen console. For a console that small, it really is something else.
 
RoboFu

RoboFu

One of the green rats
ShadowFox08 said:
No its been well known that the bandwidth of the Switch has been its biggest bottleneck. Just how much we don't know. Especially with checkerboard rendering. But the Switch doesn't have nearly enough as its competitors, and it could have allowed BOTW to be 1080p on the Switch.
Click to expand...

But it’s uo to the Devs to choose to push games further or pull back to hit 1080.

There is no hard set reason
 
rodrigolfp

rodrigolfp

Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
ShadowFox08 said:
No its been well known that the bandwidth of the Switch has been its biggest bottleneck. Just how much we don't know. Especially with checkerboard rendering. But the Switch doesn't have nearly enough as its competitors, and it could have allowed BOTW to be 1080p on the Switch.
Click to expand...

Devs could downgrade some assets to save bandwidth to reach 1080p, but they choose not.
 
N

nick_b

Member
When I first got MarioXRabbids I remember saying this looks a little fuzzy. Then I immediately adjusted to it and realized how good the game looked. This was on a 1080p monitor. I don't know anything about 4k.
 
P

Peterc

Member
nick_b said:
When I first got MarioXRabbids I remember saying this looks a little fuzzy. Then I immediately adjusted to it and realized how good the game looked. This was on a 1080p monitor. I don't know anything about 4k.
Click to expand...


This is why it doesn't matter:

IMG_20171112_WA0002.jpg


It's on my 4k tv and its big. Still look how beautiful it is and its running on wii.
 
R

RootCause

Member
I'm actually impressed by what it's been capable of pulling off. It's a pretty small machine, that's also using a lot less energy than the other four systems.

pretty done said:
The Switch is weak and the dock is just upping the clocks. They should have made the dock have a GPU inside or something to provide a better console experience. It feels very last gen when docked for the lack of a better term.
Click to expand...
I believe Nintendo had a patent on that. I'll be honest. I'd buy one instantly. Stabilize frame rate, boost resolution, and graphical settings.
 
A

ArmageddB

Member
There must be some white paper out in the industry that did an exhaustive study to come to the conclusion that 900p is the lowest resolution you can go and still look acceptable on a 1080p screen.

Xbox One hits the same benchmark.
 
Robin64

Robin64

Member
Lots of games on the other consoles that are more powerful are also sub-native res. It's just the way things are, some developers value more going graphically than resolution and frame-rate. It's not really exclusive to the Switch.
 
rodrigolfp

rodrigolfp

Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
Peterc said:
Do you have a magnifying glass for me?

Of course you'll see it wii vs 4k, but it's not like in your face. But do i rather like n64gfx in 4k or just mario galaxy on wii in 480p. I wouldn't even have to think about it.

https://youtu.be/qAEzQ1PZWK0 show this to some not gamer. They even would say it looks the same.
Click to expand...

If one says it looks the same, this one need glasses, gamer or not.
 
N

nick_b

Member
rodrigolfp said:
Now compare to this:
SZx0d7N.jpg

Yes. It matters.
Click to expand...

Sure if it can be done on the hardware. If I have a beast rig then I'd like it as beautiful as it gets. On a machine with limits I'd prefer it to be smooth with image quality being a close second. There is no point in having an unbelievably gorgeous game that barely chugs along.
 
Castef

Castef

Banned
bufkus said:
not sure what the big deal is, do you even notice the difference between 900p and 1080p? it's clear that the underpowered-ness of the Switch is the reason why they have to lower the resolution sometimes.
Click to expand...

Quite sure that some months ago that difference was extremely clear here on NeoGaf. ;)
 
C

Chauncy Talon

Member
I love graphics in video games, but 900p doesn't affect my outlook on the game. Hell, I still play games at 720p if it's the native game resolution. I'm okay with it.
 
Danjin44

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
Honestly who the fuck cares? Does being 900p resolution make the games like Mario Odyssey less fun? Nintendo cares more about the aesthetics in the visuals more that tech behind the graphics and that to me is more than enough.
 
U

Ubername

Banned
ShadowFox08 said:
Right, the GPU makes up for that, and it can also compensate for framerate to a certain extent. But I believe its the bandwidth that's causing the resolution to not go all the way to 1080p.

Bandwidth matters especially for 3rd party ports. Shit bandwidth and CPU being underpowered(or at least bandwidth) on Switch is one of the main reasons why there is a bigger gap in graphical effects and resolution than normal. It would have helped tremendously with games like DOOM.
Click to expand...

I don't get why people feel the need to ponder these things. We aren't hardware engineers and we aren't in the business of making compromises between visuals and performance (on Switch, at least) because we can't unless we crack open the box and stick some more stuff in there, which no one on this board is going to do. Unless you are going to do some serious throughput calculations this whole discussion is a circlejerk.
 
P

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
SuomiDude said:
But when handheld, it feels like a next gen console. For a console that small, it really is something else.
Click to expand...

Sure and while you do not see other handhelds pushing the same kind of graphics at the same price, for a Nintendo handheld 5-7 hours of battery life used to be expected...
 
J

johannesbergcrantz

Member
Well 1080p is more than 900..
The number of p:s arent that important imo, and 4k.. yawn. Just slightly crisper version of the same image. Hdr though, makes a difference. And animations maybe more than anything.
 
HoodWinked

HoodWinked

Member
I suspect it is because of thermal throttling so while the processor is a bit more capable sustained load causes the soc to have unexpected slowdown so they need to target games to render with enough headroom to not cause throttling
 
synce

synce

Member
Peterc said:
Its a handheld. Its 100 times smaller as your 4k tv.
Click to expand...

This really isn't how it works. If anything, you might be more likely to notice low resolution on a handheld since it's closer to your face.

I think it's purely to conserve battery power
 
B

Bickle2

Member
ArmageddB said:
There must be some white paper out in the industry that did an exhaustive study to come to the conclusion that 900p is the lowest resolution you can go and still look acceptable on a 1080p screen.

Xbox One hits the same benchmark.
Click to expand...


It’s fairly simple. Most people sit too far from the TV to even resolve 720p, and have cheap TVs with terrible motion algorithms to boot (not, I’m not talking about motion interpolation, it’s why a 60hz Samsung beats the pants off of a 120hz Vizio) which blur the image further.

A very tiny percentage sit 2ft or less from their screen like many hardcore gamers seem to. You should be sitting 5-6ft from a 1080p 60” tv. No closer, no farther. Closer and you start to see pixels (which is why people think 4k rendering has a point. It’s not actual detail they’re seeing, just the same stuffed into smaller spaces, stretched geometry and textures).

Nintendo made a console that is in terms of ability, Xbox 360 Pro. It’s 900p because that’s pretty much all it can manage, assuming it’s running Xbox 360 level complexity games (they put in better textures because it has 8x the RAM). That’s also why you see Doom crash and burn, because it doesn’t scale down nearly as well. Other games will be progressively worse as time goes on
 
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