• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Christopher Columbus monument vandalized in Baltimore

IaN_GAF

Member
Not destroying it hasn't caused the status quo to change, so perhaps we need to give that a try.
What harm do you think keeping the statue in a museum environment with proper context to teach our children and learn from past mistakes would do?

Let's be clear: you can keep it in an exhibition called "History's Greatest Monsters" or whatever. I don't disagree with any of the negative feelings on the person the statue is for. I just really don't like it when anybody destroys historical material.
 
I don't think judges and juries factor into taking down a statue.

Also what do you mean, happening in other places? A big part of why removal of statues is gaining traction is the vandalism.

Baltimore has already taken down Confederate statues in the past week through legal means as the article mentions. It also mentions that the city made moves to re-name the holiday years ago, although the motion failed.

I really don't think vandalism was necessary in this scenario.
 
What harm do you think keeping the statue in a museum environment with proper context to teach our children and learn from past mistakes would do?

Let's be clear: you can keep it in an exhibition called "History's Greatest Monsters" or whatever. I don't disagree with any of the negative feelings on the person the statue is for. I just really don't like it when anybody destroys historical material.

What does a statue do that a book cannot?

Baltimore has already taken down Confederate statues in the past week through legal means as the article mentions. It also mentions that the city made moves to re-name the holiday years ago, although the motion failed.

I really don't think vandalism was necessary in this scenario.

Yes, Baltimore - after a series of vandalism against Confederate statues - took down statues. It's not a coincidence that removal of these statues was accelerated following a massive outcry. Further, there are also potential cases where the removal of the statue may not happen, such as in areas where local government is protective of them.

Ultimately though, it's a victimless crime and no one should care.

I don't know. I don't own a sledgehammer.

But you have a strong enough opinion to say "slippery slope" about such behavior
 
Jesus Christ. Comparing this to the fucking Red Guard and Mao is making me both laugh and cry at the same time.

There are clear similarities, no? Destruction of historical artefacts because they have become incompatible with the current norms and values of society.

Which, in my opinion, is not the right way to handle historical events or people you disagree with.
 
There are clear similarities, no? Destruction of historical artefacts because they have become incompatible with the current norms and values of society.

Which, in my opinion, is not the right way to handle historical events or people you disagree with.

Columbus' statue represents a historical lie. It is essentially a propaganda piece.

I actually asked what harm you think a statue in a museum environment with proper context would do.

None, but there is also no harm in destroying it.
 

Basketball

Member
I don't think judges and juries factor into taking down a statue.

Also what do you mean, happening in other places? A big part of why removal of statues is gaining traction is the vandalism.
facepalm it's a saying .. meaning this idiot should not be the one to decide what happens to any monument/statue he has issues with due to centuries old history.
And if more of this stuff happens what's going to protect our cherished monuments like MLK or Lincoln etc.. Anything could be offensive to anyone these days and wackos might take "justice" in their own hands just like this dumbass did. Will officials have to start hiding every historical monument ?
 
facepalm it's a saying .. meaning this idiot should not be the one to decide what happens to any monument/statue he has issues with due to centuries old history.
And if more of this stuff happens what's going to protect our cherished monuments like MLK or Lincoln etc.. Anything could be offensive to anyone these days and wackos might take "justice" in their own hands just like this dumbass did. Will officials have to start hiding every historical monument ?

Remember how Trump suggested that Robert E. Lee statues' removals will lead to removal of Washington's statues? Funny how you're saying the same thing lol

Word of advice: a genocidal maniac who was celebrated due to historical revisionism is not comparable to MLK Jr.
 
Well how about city names like Columbus and Washington DC (District of Columbia)? There are surely other Columbus related named places as well.
 
I can't link to anything in particular, but I've seen examples of people still being taught of Columbus being the discoverer of America. That said, perhaps it's just because you don't know a lot of people who would be ignorant of that fact?

That is what I was taught at a very early age, and of course they glossed over the horrible parts but that was taught later when that sort of thing was appropriate.

And although he wasn't the first, his discovery did open up the continent for colonization (for better or worse- mostly worse) which does have historical significance.

Yes, Baltimore - after a series of vandalism against Confederate statues - took down statues. It's not a coincidence that removal of these statues was accelerated following a massive outcry.

And that means that more vandalism is required? I don't see the logic there. Was there specific vandalism in Baltimore as well or did the city start removing them after the vandalism and outcry in other areas?
 
That is what I was taught at a very early age, and of course they glossed over the horrible parts but that was taught later when that sort of thing was appropriate.

And although he wasn't the first, his discovery did open up the continent for colonization (for better or worse- mostly worse) which does have historical significance.



And that means that more vandalism is required? I don't see the logic there. Was there specific vandalism in Baltimore as well or did the city start removing them after the vandalism and outcry in other areas?

I can't speak to Baltimore in particular, but yes, a lot of removals followed closely after the vandalism cases. It makes for good PR and avoids these situations.
 

TechnicPuppet

Nothing! I said nothing!
In Scotland there are parts of the country that celebrate the Vikings, including statues.

They were foreign invaders who raped and pillaged there way across our lands. There are also lots of Roman things and I'm sure many others.

Were do you draw the line. Confederate stuff is a no brainer for me but a 300 year old statue I would probably preserve.
 

IaN_GAF

Member
None, but there is also no harm in destroying it.

You are destroying evidence of a time and place about which I am sure we agree we should teach to learn from and grow.

I find it odd that you would support destruction over building upon. Take their statue and use it to teach how they were wrong.

It's not unlike Nazi museums displaying second world war artifacts who donate their earnings to good causes.
 
I can't speak to Baltimore in particular, but yes, a lot of removals followed closely after the vandalism cases. It makes for good PR and avoids these situations.

There have been a lot of these stories so I can't keep up, but weren't a lot of the removals already planned but just accelerated because of the outcry?

I just don't think destruction of a monument, which was created from a place of ignorance 200+ years ago, should be a target for vandalism like this.

I have no problem with it being removed and used to teach the truth behind the man, but I don't see how this accomplishes anything long-term.
 
What historical or educational value? The statue was erected literally for the purposes of distorting history. Its existence is actually for the sake of making it harder to understand history.

Its purpose was to glorify the deeds and personality of Christopher Columbus. Surely that teaches us something about the mentality and/or ignorance of that time.

It's not because a monument does not reflect reality or was created for propaganda purposes that it has nu historical or educational value.
 

televator

Member
If we are talking about actual monuments and statues from the period, I would be against them being outright destroyed.
Even if it is an ugly part of our past, it is still our history.

The Jim Crow-era statues are where the problem is because they were very obviously put up with malicious intent to intimidate.
I don't think that is the case with this monument from the 1700s. It was created from a place of ignorance.
Use the artisans work to educate more people and rid them of those ignorant perceptions.

You said you didn't see the harm in letting them stand. You mean letting them stand out in public as they are? Yeah it's ugly history, but the way these monuments are presented curretly conveniently leaves out the ugliness. I also can't really agree that we know for certain that any artists was trully ignorant of the subject they sculpted. Afterall, I'm pretty sure an artist living in the confederacy and immediately after the war was pretty aware of the people behind the figures.
 

samn

Member
Its purpose was to glorify the deeds and personality of Christopher Columbus. Surely that teaches us something about the mentality and/or ignorance of that time.

It's not because a monument does not reflect reality or was created for propaganda purposes that it has nu historical or educational value.

then move it into a musem, or take a photograph and put it in a textbook.

Don't let it stand there dominating a public space.
 
Its purpose was to glorify the deeds and personality of Christopher Columbus. Surely that teaches us something about the mentality and/or ignorance of that time.

It's not because a monument does not reflect reality or was created for propaganda purposes that it has nu historical or educational value.

Yet what will be the thing that moves these statues to museums? Public outcry and legal channels haven't done it yet.
 
because im against law breaking on either side. And this just fuels the other side blaming the left. ... this should be obvious.

Sorry, I misinterpreted his statement, it read to me like removing a statue of Columbus was too extreme. Not the vandalism.

Part of why I asked why they felt that way, it was unclear to me.

As I mentioned above, vandalism should not be the answer unless all other avenues have been tried.
Nothing productive comes out of it outside of some short-lived catharsis.

Yes, he was a genocidal asshole but if we really are going to go around destroying history because the views of those figures don't mesh with our own modern day morals we are going to have a lot of work to do.
As someone else mentioned, he was a product of imperialism from hundreds of years ago.

Also, setting aside the morality I feel like it is disrespectful to the artist who created the monument 200+ years ago. I doubt he toiled away at the monument knowing the truth of Colombus.

There is nothing to be gained from this sort of short-sighted vandalism in my view.
Put your energy towards something productive. Figure out a way to teach the truth of his horrible legacy. Have the monument moved to a museum where that history could be taught, etc.

When comparing the two situations, it is very easy to see that the intent of the Jim Crow-era monuments was mean to be a form of intimidation, which is why I honestly wouldn't even bat an eye if they were vandalized (although I think they should be taken down by legal means). In this case though, I don't think it is as cut and dry and I feel like there could be some historic and artistic merit to the monument if it were framed correctly.



If we are talking about actual monuments and statues from the period, I would be against them being outright destroyed.
Even if it is an ugly part of our past, it is still our history.

The Jim Crow-era statues are where the problem is because they were very obviously put up with malicious intent to intimidate.
I don't think that is the case with this monument from the 1700s. It was created from a place of ignorance.
Use the artisans work to educate more people and rid them of those ignorant perceptions.

Totally fair, I miss read your post and thought you meant something more general.
 
You said you didn't see the harm in letting them stand. You mean letting them stand out in public as they are? Yeah it's ugly history, but the way these monuments are presented curretly conveniently leaves out the ugliness. I also can't really agree that we know for certain that any artists was trully ignorant of the subject they sculpted. Afterall, I'm pretty sure an artist living in the confederacy and immediately after the war was pretty aware of the people behind the figures.

In regards to the original Confederate statues, I would prefer them to be moved from public spaces. I've repeated that sentiment several times now.

Also, my comment about the artist being ignorant is specifically about this Columbus statue. I sincerely doubt an artisan in 1792 knew the truth behind what he did.

That comment is obviously not applicable to artisans in the Post-Civil War period.
 

Squire

Banned
I think this one warranted a move to the museum, not outright destruction. It was erected out of popular ignorance, not racism.

I mean, who do you think either A) purposefully allowed his misdeeds to go widely unrecognized or B) didn't feel they were relevant (or even misdeeds at all), and why do you think they felt that way?
 
You are supposed to learn from history
not destroy it.

I already posted about my disgust for Columbus, but in the end I feel the same way. Remove it and put it somewhere else with all the information in proper context. I don't think people should be vandalizing or destroying these statues, but I don't think they should stay there to celebrate the person they were inspired by either.
 

darklin0

Banned
Yo, when are you guys going to stop caping for monuments depicting traitors and monsters?

If you want to teach history you do it through the accounts of the victims, NOT by glorifying the villain.
 
I already posted about my disgust for Columbus, but in the end I feel the same way. Remove it and put it somewhere else with all the information in proper context. I don't think people should be vandalizing or destroying these statues, but I don't think they should stay there to celebrate the person they were inspired by either.

The situation is complicated though by the question of what would spur local governments into action to move these statues.
 
Thanks a lot Washington Irving...

There's absolutely zero reason we should have statues dedicated to fucking Columbus or especially a day for him.
 
AFOWpO0.jpg

Lmao. Came in to this thread to make exact same reference
 
What blows my mind, is Columbus thought he did land in India, so naturally he called the natives....Indians. And it wasn't until about 15 years ago that most Americans still referred to Native Americans as Indians. We still even have a baseball team called the Cleveland Indians!!
Tbf dont a lot of indigineous people still refer to themselves as indians. Anecdotally that has been my experience , also ..

http://www.ncai.org
 

fireflame

Member
But i wonder, if we think it this way that means that anything would be eligible for vandalism. Kings did awful things, pyramids were built by slaves... I think anything could be destroyed going this way. No i clearly think the answer is not to destroy things but put them in conext and then discuss with people, inform, debate, do constructive things.
 
Stick it in a museum.

Then teach people at said museum about why the statue was curated etc etc.

I don't think smashing things up solves much other than giving the 'other side' another chip.
 

G.ZZZ

Member
Yo, when are you guys going to stop caping for monuments depicting traitors and monsters?

If you want to teach history you do it through the accounts of the victims, NOT by glorifying the villain.

Except this is extremely hypocritical. I mean, US culture is defined by exceptionalism for having "won" WW2 while ignoring all the disgusting other shit it did like the fact that it's essentially standing for genocide of middle-easterners.

Our whole history is all of violence and we who stand today we only do because our ancestors were the best at killing and subduing others and standing at the top. People like Columbus, Khan, Caesars and basically all conquerors, kings and emperors were mass murderers. They're still historically important for other reasons.

And no this isn't the same as confederate statues because the confederate were traitors that lost their civil war and had statues built for them an hundred year after the end of the civil war. It'd be like people erecting statues to fascism or nazism in 2040. It's not historical, it's a provocation.
 
Top Bottom