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Epic knows PS4/NEXTXBOX specs - [Giving recommendations w/ commercial mindedness]

If Epic wants real time Avatar graphics so bad then they should just release their own console that's powerful enough to render them, it'll surely make them lots of monies because graphics are such a strong selling point and the hardware and development costs needed for it aren't unfeasible in any way shape or form.
 

pvpness

Member
I think MS could afford to go balls out on their next console as they're unstoppable. I'm fairly certain though, that if Sony follows suit, it could very likely be their last generation as a hardware manufacturer.

They simply can not afford to play Microsoft's game.

As far as wanting next gen to be more expensive so that consoles last longer... I don't want that and from the sales numbers of late, I don't think the market at large wants that either. I'm personally motivated by new methods of control, but I'm old school so that's what I was groomed to expect in each new generation. I understand that Sony has groomed a different breed of gamer that would prefer to have a dual shock for the PS4, PS5, and PS6, and under that expectation it makes since to go balls out on the hardware because if the only difference between your last system and your newest system is visuals/power, it's a lot harder to get people (outside the enthusiast market) to bite.
 
Of course it's more artificial. The 360 was more or less the absolute top end of what you could expect to put into a console-sized box in 2005. The Wii was 1/10th of that.

That's not "more artificial," that's just "more restrictive than you would like it to be." The point is both are artificially limited ("arbitrary" might be a better word), as all closed hardware is a compromise. If the Xbox was limited by the size of the box, then the limitation was the size of the box (and apparently even that was too limiting at first). MS could have made it bigger. You're just sticking a marker on the continuum and saying anything to the left of what's acceptable to you is artificially limited, when the reality is all hardware imposes limitations. If you really cared about not being limited by hardware, you'd have a PC and encourage the whole industry to flock back to that.
 

KageMaru

Member
Here's my problem with the screenshots:

A very sizable portion of the consumer base that buys these consoles will see almost negligible differences between UE4 and the graphics of current-generation consoles.

Are they an upgrade? Yes, especially to those of us tuned in to these things. But are they enough to get average Joe consumer out and buying new consoles? I don't think there is a chance in the world.

This industry is in trouble.

You're jumping to some major conclusions here. We haven't seen UE4 in motion, opinions may very well change when we do. Not to mention how much of an impact art can have on an engine.

If Epic wants real time Avatar graphics so bad then they should just release their own console that's powerful enough to render them, it'll surely make them lots of monies because graphics are such a strong selling point and the hardware and development costs needed for it aren't unfeasible in any way shape or form.

You really have no idea what you're talking about.

Am I the only one who's starting to see every Nintendo fan who's both excited about the Wii-U but also chooses to downplay graphics in other threads as a fucking hypocrite?
 

theBishop

Banned
I am perfectly happy with my PS3. I wish Sony/MS could wait it out at least two more yrs when substantial tech improvements could be more affordable. The RAM in current consoles is shameful.

I hope the ram discussion is between 4 and 8GB, not 2 and 4GB.

As for waiting 2 years, I don't see your point. In 2 years, there will be new 'substantial tech improvements' which are unaffordable. It's always partially arbitrary. There are occasional watershed technologies like programmable shaders, but in general technology is one long chain of gradual, iterative improvements.
 

Vanillalite

Ask me about the GAF Notebook
I don't really get this sentiment. There's plenty of games this generation that have sold well without being the best looking, there's numerous examples of this. Even in generation jumps, people didn't care whether the PS2 was a significant upgrade graphics wise from the PS1, NES to Snes wasn't that big either, in fact, most of the information points to the opposite.

There just needs to be a noticeable increase but it doesn't have to be a massive leap. There's practically no evidence that suggests a big jump in graphics means etc sales because a big jump also means more expensive which limits sales.

The problem noticeable. The amount of power needed to get non techies to notice a real graphical difference at a glance is HUGE. This doesn't mean from a purely theoretical stand point we won't get consoles that aren't at least 2 x 3 times more powerful than the current ones. $100 off the shelf GPUs from like 3 or 4 years ago were twice as powerful if not more so.

It's just getting that difference in power to be NOTICEABLE to the consumer.

In this regard the amount of power needed to create a noticeable difference right off the bat would be a MASSIVE cost sink. Going off of that everything really in between will have different theoretical advances in terms of raw numbers, but they'll end up pushing similar graphics eye test wise to a non techie at a glance.

A 4870 is quiet a bit more powerful than say a 4770, but it's not a big enough leap to create something that's going to wildly better at noticeable at a glance which is why I think the console makers might opt for one over the other to get the cost down for the box because the extra theoretical power won't give them that mega wow factor on screen unless they cross a certain threshold.

Does anyone actually get my meandering reasoning here? LOL
 

SapientWolf

Trucker Sexologist
I don't really get this sentiment. There's plenty of games this generation that have sold well without being the best looking, there's numerous examples of this. Even in generation jumps, people didn't care whether the PS2 was a significant upgrade graphics wise from the PS1, NES to Snes wasn't that big either, in fact, most of the information points to the opposite.
Those aren't very good examples. I'm gonna say that the biggest immediately noticeable changes in both of those generational leaps were easily the graphics.
There just needs to be a noticeable increase but it doesn't have to be a massive leap. There's practically no evidence that suggests a big jump in graphics means etc sales because a big jump also means more expensive which limits sales.
Costs can come down after time. But they can't improve the performance without releasing another console or an add-on.

If the graphics aren't going to be the selling point then they're going to have to find something else to generate excitement. I don't think services, physics or AI are going to cut it for the mainstream. If there's no excitement generated when the new consoles launch then the life is going to continue to drain out of the home console market.
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
The problem noticeable. The amount of power needed to get non techies to notice a real graphical difference at a glance is HUGE. This doesn't mean from a purely theoretical stand point we won't get consoles that aren't at least 2 x 3 times more powerful than the current ones. $100 off the shelf GPUs from like 3 or 4 years ago were twice as powerful if not more so.

It's just getting that difference in power to be NOTICEABLE to the consumer.

In this regard the amount of power needed to create a noticeable difference right off the bat would be a MASSIVE cost sink. Going off of that everything really in between will have different theoretical advances in terms of raw numbers, but they'll end up pushing similar graphics eye test wise to a non techie at a glance.

A 4870 is quiet a bit more powerful than say a 4770, but it's not a big enough leap to create something that's going to wildly better at noticeable at a glance which is why I think the console makers might opt for one over the other to get the cost down for the box because the extra theoretical power won't give them that mega wow factor on screen unless they cross a certain threshold.

Does anyone actually get my meandering reasoning here? LOL

Umm it's really not that much, current PC gaming is noticeable increase over console gaming. That's about the benchmark it really needs. Your looking at it from a noticeable increase from PC gaming standpoint, which is incorrect and shouldn't really be used as a bar.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Yes, that's already happening. It's called mobile/social/iPad gaming. Those are the new opportunities that are arising and where the consumers are going. Is that the direction you think the industry should go? Do you think super-high-end consoles will somehow abate that trend?

It is, unfortunately, not about what I want :)

If the ability to host middle/lower tier games becomes commoditised and available in lots of places other than console boxes, and people vote with their wallets for these alternatives, that's how it is.

The question for home consoles is how to stand out here. For starters, I don't think reducing the technical ambition of games would help.

I'm not sure why you're assuming a level of supply that is satisfactory to the market.

If there isn't a satisfactory supply one of two things will happen:

1) people will stop buying games

2) companies will shuffle their cost base and targets and float more games on the market at reduced cost per game

If an equilibrium can't be found, then there isn't a market for those games anymore.

But I personally think an equilibrium would be found. If people aren't satisfied with the mid-tier or the type of gaming available on other devices, then there's a market, and I believe people will find ways to meet it at a profit. If that can't happen, there's no market.

My point is, if there's a market for what home consoles can offer, then the market and competition between developers can find that spot. I don't believe hardware needs to drive that. Hardware should do the best job it can because wherever that 'sweet spot' is, it'll be a better one for the same $ investment with better hardware.

You're basically arguing for the same model as the Hollywood studios, for which I have roughly the same amount of contempt.** When only a handful of studios all decide to chase after the same market segment and direct their attention to the same shallow, formulaic tripe at the expense of innovation and new concepts, the industry stratifies and stagnates while the money only flows to a few major players. In general, I don't see that as healthy for the industry, or for product.

To which you will say that there are loads of opportunities for low-cost, indie, niche titles on the PC, which is absolutely right. (In fact, I don't even own a console and am unlikely to buy another one as I use a PC, so this discussion is mostly academic to me anyway.) The problem, however, is that the industry is consolidating into a strict two-tier space where the graphical horsepower is becoming increasingly important at the expense of everything else, which relegates developers who can't compete on that front to the indie/XBLA scene, whereas it was previously viable for companies to try somewhat more experimental and unrefined ideas while still maintaining a respectable level of graphical fidelity and still be sold on the same shelves as the AAA blockbusters, and not immediately be written off by gamers as incompetent solely do how the game looks.

**Though, somewhat paradoxically, the root cause there is the exact opposite of the game industry's, in that Hollywood is trying to target the broadest, global audience possible and make films appealing to every culture and audience. Or at least, the male under-25ers in every culture.

On the first paragraph, I don't think that's actually happening. I for one have spent more money in the last couple of years on micro-developed and small no-name games than I ever have previously.

There's a difference between acknowledging that not everyone can compete at $60 and saying that small devs can't turn a buck and push out innovative ideas.

On the second paragraph, the industry has never been more diverse - the $60 home console model does not have to fit all, and should not be massaged to fit all via hardware limitations, IMO. So what if everyone can't compete for your $60? Would you really prefer a 'managed' market that limited developers so everyone could sell you a middle ground of game at that price point?

Hardware always artificially imposes limitations on developers, by virtue of the fact that it's hardware and it has limitations. There's nothing inherently less artificial about the Wii's hardware than there was in the 360's 3-core, 512 MB design in 2005, when you consider that PCs had quad-core 2GB systems at the same time.

(And this is to say nothing of the physical limitations that will come up with trying to shoehorn the horsepower you want into a console-sized box).

When I talk about 'artificial limitations' - I mean ones driven by concerns other than what can be put in a reasonable console box at a reasonable price. I think they should do the best they can in those constraints. Bad choice of word on my part, perhaps, but I hope you understand what I mean.

Indeed. That must really suck for them.

It seems to me you're being contradictory. You can't simultaneously argue that the market will decide who wins and who loses and we should just accept that without putting any constraints on anyone, while also arguing that the console makers have an obligation to put out the most powerful, capable machine possible, cost be damned. They play in the same market as well and have an obligation to balance their desire to gain market share and sell product at a cost-effective price point with their desire to make money.

I don't see how I'm being contradictory when I never said the bolded, and said from my first post that they've a responsibility to balance this against price for consumer accessibility and to attract an audience for software. I'm saying that within that constraint they should aim for the best they can offer and shouldn't shirk from something 'too powerful' because company A might not be able to justify a price point for their product anymore vs company B's.
 

KageMaru

Member
As for waiting 2 years, I don't see your point. In 2 years, there will be new 'substantial tech improvements' which are unaffordable. It's always partially arbitrary. There are occasional watershed technologies like programmable shaders, but in general technology is one long chain of gradual, iterative improvements.

This is easy. What is unobtainable now or next year may be attainable in 3 or 4 years.

Good example is that there's a good chance we'll be stuck with 2GB of memory if they plan to launch next year, however this may not have been the case if these systems were to launch in 2013 or 2014 due to certain advances.
 

theBishop

Banned
Does anyone actually get my meandering reasoning here? LOL

I get your reasoning, I just think it's wrong. There's nothing different between this generation and any previous one. If you look at PC technology, it's continued to progress as always. This year's gpus are dramatically more powerful than the ones in PS360. You can buy a 'mainstream' laptop that plays Skyrim and Crysis far better than the 360.

It should've been a wakeup call when Sony showed a handheld playing Uncharted, and it actually looked like Uncharted. Because of the weakened state of PC development, we tend to forget what's possible. But technology didn't hit a wall, it kept progressing.
 

theBishop

Banned
This is easy. What is unobtainable now or next year may be attainable in 3 or 4 years.

Good example is that there's a good chance we'll be stuck with 2GB of memory if they plan to launch next year, however this may not have been the case if these systems were to launch in 2013 or 2014 due to certain advances.

What is attainable now was unobtainable 2 years ago. What's the point?
 

Nekki

Member
They want to drive specs up so the higher end game releases look better so the market's expectations for visuals are raised so less rich developers are forced to buy a new engine license to compete rather than just relying on UE3 so they turn to the successor to the engine they're familiar with, and therefore help Epic make loads of money.

Same reason Crytek want ridiculously powerful consoles.

This, a thousand times this.

And i don't think it's a good thing overall.
 

Mashing

Member
They both sounds like arrogant asswipes. They apparently have no idea how the hardare manufacturing business works.
 

pvpness

Member
They both sounds like arrogant asswipes. They apparently have no idea how the hardare manufacturing business works.

It's not that. They definitely understand how the hardware side works. The thing is, they've put a lot of money into their new expensive engine and so it's a good idea to try and get as many people on their side of the fence as possible. Make no mistake, Epic isn't lobbying Sony/MS because they care about the desires of gamers. They lobby because they care about their bottom line, like any intelligent business does.
 

KageMaru

Member
What is attainable now was unobtainable 2 years ago. What's the point?

The longer the wait, the bigger the leap, which is what people really care about.

No one is really expecting a ~$400 system to beat out a ~$1500 PC, but they do hope it offers a generational leap over what we currently have. Otherwise it would make jumping into a next gen console that much harder to justify.

It's really not a hard concept to understand.
 
Costs can come down after time. But they can't improve the performance without releasing another console or an add-on.
Not sure how you can say this. We always see large improvements to performance over the lifespan of a console, and there are always surprises launched after a console is presumed to be over and done with.

All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again.
 

SapientWolf

Trucker Sexologist
Umm it's really not that much, current PC gaming is noticeable increase over console gaming. That's about the benchmark it really needs. Your looking at it from a noticeable increase from PC gaming standpoint, which is incorrect and shouldn't really be used as a bar.
Most of the improvements in PC ports this gen are in image quality, which the average consumer and the mainstream media barely seem to notice. Titles with serious IQ problems are winning graphical achievement awards on a regular basis.

Which is why I don't think such a subtle graphical upgrade is going motivate people to pay another $400+ for another box in their living room. They have to knock the doors off to get people to reach for their wallets or find another selling point.

Not sure how you can say this. We always see large improvements to performance over the lifespan of a console, and there are always surprises launched after a console is presumed to be over and done with.

All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again.
Not sure how people can deny it. What game on the NES looks like SFII on the SNES? And PS1 graphics were hard on the eyes even at the time.
 

Mashing

Member
It's not that. They definitely understand how the hardware side works. The thing is, they've put a lot of money into their new expensive engine and so it's a good idea to try and get as many people on their side of the fence as possible. Make no mistake, Epic isn't lobbying Sony/MS because they care about the desires of gamers. They lobby because they care about their bottom line, like any intelligent business does.

I suppose so, but do they not realize that increasing development costs is the going to be the #1 reason the gaming industry is going to crash? If that happens then they will be out of business because they cannot license their engine's any longer. Call it short sightedness instead of arrogance.
 

Xiaoki

Member
This is easy. What is unobtainable now or next year may be attainable in 3 or 4 years.

Good example is that there's a good chance we'll be stuck with 2GB of memory if they plan to launch next year, however this may not have been the case if these systems were to launch in 2013 or 2014 due to certain advances.

You do know that sets up a never ending cycle. Right?

"They should wait until 2014 to be released."

2014 comes and: they should wait until 2016

2016 comes and: they should wait until 2018

2018 comes and .....
 

Vanillalite

Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Umm it's really not that much, current PC gaming is noticeable increase over console gaming. That's about the benchmark it really needs. Your looking at it from a noticeable increase from PC gaming standpoint, which is incorrect and shouldn't really be used as a bar.

I get your reasoning, I just think it's wrong. There's nothing different between this generation and any previous one. If you look at PC technology, it's continued to progress as always. This year's gpus are dramatically more powerful than the ones in PS360. You can buy a 'mainstream' laptop that plays Skyrim and Crysis far better than the 360.

It should've been a wakeup call when Sony showed a handheld playing Uncharted, and it actually looked like Uncharted. Because of the weakened state of PC development, we tend to forget what's possible. But technology didn't hit a wall, it kept progressing.

That's not really what I'm getting at though.

What I'm saying is as long as we get a jump to the 4770 level at least GPU wise we'll see a noticeable difference over what consoles currently can do and that should easily be hit by all 3 next gen consoles considering the 4770 launched in 2009 @ $100.

Yet above that their is a middle ground I'd say 4770-6770 that while it'll give a theoretical bump over the 4770 ie something like a 5850 that bump won't be enough to really create something that'll look THAT much better from a non tech casual eye test over the leap to the 4770. It'll be better, but it won't be able to create something NOTICEABLY better via the quick glance eye test.

The next level you have to get to to really hit that eye test is something more akin to the current high end DX11.1 cards like a 7950. (I'm using ATI cards as a base here since we know at least 2 of the 3 next consoles if not all 3 will be ATI based.) In between that you're in theoretical power jumps but at a glance what I deem as "no mans land." Yet that no mans land depending upon what kind of GPU you could get could still increase the system cost.

So I feel like there is a baseline all of the 3 consoles have to shoot for, but over that it's just not worth it unless you go exponentially further up the chain to gpu equivalents that'll dramatically increase the initial cost offering of the console boxes we are discussing.
 
The longer the wait, the bigger the leap, which is what people really care about.

No one is really expecting a ~$400 system to beat out a ~$1500 PC, but they do hope it offers a generational leap over what we currently have. Otherwise it would make jumping into a next gen console that much harder to justify.

It's really not a hard concept to understand.

Thing is you need an astronomical jump to get to what a generational leap would previously look like (read: on the order of 20-25x more powerful in raw specs) now.

Note: Even a beast of computer today is still hitting at most 12-13x the 360. You'd also be spending about $2k on the computer as well.
 

KageMaru

Member
You do know that sets up a never ending cycle. Right?

"They should wait until 2014 to be released."

2014 comes and: they should wait until 2016

2016 comes and: they should wait until 2018

2018 comes and .....

Look at my follow up post.

Edit:

Thing is you need an astronomical jump to get to what a generational leap would previously look like (read: on the order of 20-25x more powerful in raw specs) now.

Note: Even a beast of computer today is still hitting at most 12-13x the 360. You'd also be spending about $2k on the computer as well.

Well I guess that all depends on what people consider a generational leap. I thought it was apparent to pretty much everyone that no matter what, we're not going to be seeing the same jump that we've been seeing over the last 3 generations.

However, to put it another way: If you asked 100 people, would they be willing to wait a year or two for twice the amount of memory for the same price, I think most of the gamers would say they'll wait.
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
Most of the improvements in PC ports this gen are in image quality, which the average consumer and the mainstream media barely seem to notice. Titles with serious IQ problems are winning graphical achievement awards on a regular basis.

Which is why I don't think such a subtle graphical upgrade is going motivate people to pay another $400+ for another box in their living room. They have to knock the doors off to get people to reach for their wallets or find another selling point.


Not sure how people can deny it. What game on the NES looks like SFII on the SNES? And PS1 graphics were hard on the eyes even at the time.

I ain't talking about PC ports, I'm talking about PC main SKU, e.g Witcher 2, Battlefield 3 even Crysis 2 dx 11. Those are noticeable improvements. Of course, they wouldn't care about pc ports of console games, they're not even properly making use of the advatanges most higher end PC's have.
 

pvpness

Member
I suppose so, but do they not realize that increasing development costs is the going to be the #1 reason the gaming industry is going to crash? If that happens then they will be out of business because they cannot license their engine's any longer. Call it short sightedness instead of arrogance.

Why would they care? If one of the hardware manufacturers crashed and burned, or hell, the entire console market crashed they'd just switch up and move back to building their engines with the PC gaming market in mind. Meanwhile, if they can get a ton of people on board for their new engine, like they did in this generation, they'll make a ton of loot and consequences for other companies be damned.
 

JimmyRustler

Gold Member
Which is why I don't think such a subtle graphical upgrade is going motivate people to pay another $400+ for another box in their living room. They have to knock the doors off to get people to reach for their wallets or find another selling point.
No. They just need to convince the right developers to make games for the new consoles.
If people want these games, they will buy the new consoles. Simple as that.
 

theBishop

Banned
The longer the wait, the bigger the leap, which is what people really care about.

No one is really expecting a ~$400 system to beat out a ~$1500 PC, but they do hope it offers a generational leap over what we currently have. Otherwise it would make jumping into a next gen console that much harder to justify.

It's really not a hard concept to understand.

Yeah, but at any point in time, you can draw a line, look at the available components and say the $250 console would have W hardware, $300 would have X hardware, $400 Y and $600 Z. If there's some significant thing on the horizon like "next year Bluray will be ready", then you have a tough decision to make. But if we're just talking about CPU+RAM+GPU, the decision is straightforward. All these things are constantly improving.

What should drive these decisions is the R&D departments of the most popular developers. And it sounds like that's exactly what's happening.
 
Most powerful hardware has never been the biggest seller in the history of consoles.

Why should MS or Sony listen to the pleas of a company whose business is reliant on pushing people to buy their new engine which is designed for the most expensive hardware that could be fit in a console?
 

KageMaru

Member
Yeah, but at any point in time, you can draw a line, look at the available components and say the $250 console would have W hardware, $300 would have X hardware, $400 Y and $600 Z. If there's some significant thing on the horizon like "next year Bluray will be ready", then you have a tough decision to make. But if we're just talking about CPU+RAM+GPU, the decision is straightforward. All these things are constantly improving.

What should drive these decisions is the R&D departments of the most popular developers. And it sounds like that's exactly what's happening.

Yeah I agree that developers should push the decisions, as long as they are realistic.

I guess the biggest area that I was thinking about with my previous posts was with memory. It'll be somewhat of a disappointment if we're stuck with only 2GB next gen, and that's a very likely scenario. 22nm looks like it's going to be too expensive for a good while based on Nvidia's earlier complaints, so node shrinks beyond 28nm probably wouldn't be worth waiting for.
 

SapientWolf

Trucker Sexologist
I ain't talking about PC ports, I'm talking about PC main SKU, e.g Witcher 2, Battlefield 3 even Crysis 2 dx 11. Those are noticeable improvements. Of course, they wouldn't care about pc ports of console games, they're not even properly making use of the advatanges most higher end PC's have.
I personally think those PC titles look almost a generation apart due to IQ alone. And yet I see posts from people who say they can barely notice the difference. There are many people here who said they would be extremely disappointed if next gen titles looked like current PC games. That's how the mainstream thinks.

And on top of that, BF3 PC lost the Gametrailers graphics award to Uncharted 3 on the PS3.
 

theBishop

Banned
However, to put it another way: If you asked 100 people, would they be willing to wait a year or two for twice the amount of memory for the same price, I think most of the gamers would say they'll wait.

I agree with you, but that's totally uncontroversial. It's exactly what's likely to happen. The successors to PS3 and 360 won't be released in the next 12 months.
 

Vanillalite

Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Look at my follow up post.

Edit:



Well I guess that all depends on what people consider a generational leap. I thought it was apparent to pretty much everyone that no matter what, we're not going to be seeing the same jump that we've been seeing over the last 3 generations.

However, to put it another way: If you asked 100 people, would they be willing to wait a year or two for twice the amount of memory for the same price, I think most of the gamers would say they'll wait.

The key is what we're going to get via a difference in raw numbers vs. at a glance on Screen Graphics.

It's going to be virtually impossible not to get the former. The question is how much power till it take to get the latter and how much more of a glancing graphics jump will you get compared to each step up you could take GPU wise relative to the cost jump.
 

SapientWolf

Trucker Sexologist
No. They just need to convince the right developers to make games for the new consoles.
If people want these games, they will buy the new consoles. Simple as that.
It's going to take more than a few next gen exclusives to start a mass exodus. Going by the XBL activity list, people seem content to play their current library ad nauseum. GTA IV is almost five years old but it's always in the top 20. The new titles will have to make the old ones seem dated and boring to get the mainstream to put down a few bennies to pick up a new platform.
 

KageMaru

Member
The key is what we're going to get via a difference in raw numbers vs. at a glance on Screen Graphics.

It's going to be virtually impossible not to get the former. The question is how much power till it take to get the latter and how much more of a glancing graphics jump will you get compared to each step up you could take GPU wise relative to the cost jump.

Sorry, maybe I'm not understanding you here but are you saying the key is the difference is whether or not the raw numbers necessary to make a big difference on the screen will be worth it?
 
I'd worry more about backwards compatibility than pure power if I was a console maker. If digital downloads don't transfer to the new consoles they'll have a harder time convincing people to switch over and invest in the new platform.
 

theBishop

Banned
Most powerful hardware has never been the biggest seller in the history of consoles.

Why should MS or Sony listen to the pleas of a company whose business is reliant on pushing people to buy their new engine which is designed for the most expensive hardware that could be fit in a console?

This is misleading. There was never a hardware cycle prior to 2006 where one manufacturer literally sat a generation out. Compare SNES and Genesis and maybe Genesis is theoretically more powerful, but they play the same games. Not so in the comparison between Wii, 360, and PS3.

I don't get your attitude toward Epic. They were consulted last generation because their middleware was going to be (and was) a big player in game design. In all likelihood, UE4 will be a big player in next-gen's game design.

If it was 1999 and Criterion told GameInformer they were lobbying for PS2 to be more powerful, would you have cried foul? It makes no sense.
 
So who is going to be stupid enough to listen to them? Microsoft or Sony? Because raising hardware raises the entry price of a console. We could be looking at a Wii U that is slightly more powerful than the 360/PS3, an ultra powerful, expensive console, and a console that firmly falls in the middle and receives the best of two worlds. I know who I'd want to be.
 

Deadstar

Member
Love or hate the movie, Avatar like graphics would change gaming forever. Imagine how immersive and beautiful it would be.

So who is going to be stupid enough to listen to them? Microsoft or Sony? Because raising hardware raises the entry price of a console. We could be looking at a Wii U that is slightly more powerful than the 360/PS3, an ultra powerful, expensive console, and a console that firmly falls in the middle and receives the best of two worlds. I know who I'd want to be.

Don't you think that if one of the consoles is superior graphics wise that it would be most profitable long term? Eventually hardcore gamers would want to get the system.
 

JimmyRustler

Gold Member
It's going to take more than a few next gen exclusives to start a mass exodus. Going by the XBL activity list, people seem content to play their current library ad nauseum. GTA IV is almost five years old but it's always in the top 20. The new titles will have to make the old ones seem dated and boring to get the mainstream to put down a few bennies to pick up a new platform.
I sure hope you are right because I really want a big leap but I don't think that's correct for most people.
GTA IV is the top 20 because people love GTA. Make GTA VI next gen exclusive and people will buy the new consoles. I know it because I would most certainly buy a new console if I couldn't play the next Elder Scrolls on the current consoles.

Though I think you exaggerating. Assuming the next leap won't the big visualy, it's unlikely that the new consoles will costs anything near 400 $.
 

theBishop

Banned
The key is what we're going to get via a difference in raw numbers vs. at a glance on Screen Graphics.

It's going to be virtually impossible not to get the former. The question is how much power till it take to get the latter and how much more of a glancing graphics jump will you get compared to each step up you could take GPU wise relative to the cost jump.

In 2000, Sony releases the PS2. In 2005 they put out a handheld that can get pretty close to matching PS2. In 2006 they release a new console that blows the previous one out of the water.

In 2006 Sony releases the PS3, in 2012, they put out a handheld that can get pretty close to matching PS3. In 2013... ?

Can you give any reason why this cycle won't repeat? Other than raw incredulity?
 
Most powerful hardware has never been the biggest seller in the history of consoles.

Why should MS or Sony listen to the pleas of a company whose business is reliant on pushing people to buy their new engine which is designed for the most expensive hardware that could be fit in a console?

Wasn't SNES more powerful than Genesis? PS1 more than Saturn?
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
I personally think those PC titles look almost a generation apart due to IQ alone. And yet I see posts from people who say they can barely notice the difference. There are many people here who said they would be extremely disappointed if next gen titles looked like current PC games. That's how the mainstream thinks.

And on top of that, BF3 PC lost the Gametrailers graphics award to Uncharted 3 on the PS3.

Again that's hardly conclusive proof, practically everyone that saw the E3 battlefield pc video's were wowed, the fact Uncharted won a graphics award on one site is hardly conclusively proves that the mainstrem considered Uncharted to look better than it. the people that would be dissapointed if next gen looks like current PC games normally have decent gaming pc's, the rest don't care how pc games look because it's deemed "too expensive" or "too much hassle".

If most next gen games end up looking as good as Battlefield 3 or slightly better, looking at the current trends that would be enough.
 

Vanillalite

Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Sorry, maybe I'm not understanding you here but are you saying the key is the difference is whether or not the raw numbers necessary to make a big difference on the screen will be worth it?

To your average gamer at a certain point even if one model has a few more polys than another your average joe gamer won't notice this at a glance even if you can extrapolate the raw numbers and show that one is in fact better than the other.

To get something beyond this that your average joe gamer can see you have to go to the next tier as I'd like to call it which would require an exponentially more powerful GPU. I mean the difference between a 4770 and a 4870 is a decent gap, but you aren't going to produce visuals that'll show that gap off in an eye test to your average gamer very easily. Hell even the 1st gen/1st gen remixed DX11 cards won't show that. You'd have to really step up to the current cards to get that kind of effect to your average gamer.

Yet to make that next leap you're talking about a dramatic cost increase on the parts involved.

I could show you the raw number difference between a 4770 and a 5770 and there is quiet a bit of difference. You just won't notice it visually using the casual eye test for your average game. Joe gamer just won't really notice except for maybe a special effect here or there.
 
In 2000, Sony releases the PS2. In 2005 they put out a handheld that can get pretty close to matching PS2. In 2006 they release a new console that blows the previous one out of the water.

In 2006 Sony releases the PS3, in 2012, they put out a handheld that can get pretty close to matching PS3. In 2013... ?

Can you give any reason why this cycle won't repeat? Other than raw incredulity?
No one is saying that the PS4 won't be a lot more powerful than either the PS3 or Vita, just that there are limitations present today that didn't exist then. Putting a cutting edge GPU of today into the PS4 is impossible. Too hot, too much energy necessary for a case as "small" as the launch PS3.
 

pvpness

Member
This is misleading. There was never a hardware cycle prior to 2006 where one manufacturer literally sat a generation out. Compare SNES and Genesis and maybe Genesis is theoretically more powerful, but they play the same games. Not so in the comparison between Wii, 360, and PS3.

I don't get your attitude toward Epic. They were consulted last generation because their middleware was going to be (and was) a big player in game design. In all likelihood, UE4 will be a big player in next-gen's game design.

If it was 1999 and Criterion told GameInformer they were lobbying for PS2 to be more powerful, would you have cried foul? It makes no sense.

I think he's trying to say that the ROI on beastly hardware fucking sucks.
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
In 2000, Sony releases the PS2. In 2005 they put out a handheld that can get pretty close to matching PS2. In 2006 they release a new console that blows the previous one out of the water.

In 2006 Sony releases the PS3, in 2012, they put out a handheld that can get pretty close to matching PS3. In 2013... ?

Can you give any reason why this cycle won't repeat? Other than raw incredulity?

Actually a gen looking not too far ahead of the Vita would actually be better for it, if they want to continue the console on the go strategy otherwise it'll be like a psp, and simply be too inferior to home console to for people to bother with it. Consider most of Sony's marketing in regards to the Vita is console on the go, which wouldn't be true anymore if the PS4 completely blew it out the water, not that it won't but that trend is hardly a reason for it to.
 

theBishop

Banned
If most next gen games end up looking as good as Battlefield 3 or slightly better, looking at the current trends that would be enough.

Battlefield3 is a current gen game. Is this your first hardware transition? The first batch of next-gen games will look like Battlefield3 on Ultra settings, and then 3 years later, BF3 will look OLD. Yes, we will look back on Battlefield3 and laugh at its dated graphics. This will happen, just as it has happened before.

We used to look at this:

Double_barreled_shotgun.jpg

And doubt it could ever look better.
 
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