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Blue Ninja · Jun 5, 2011

WinoMcCougarstein said:
I came into this thread looking for information and found a fucking argument. Yay.

All information you need will be in the OP, if you want to avoid the arguments. :lol

Snuggler said:
To mercilessly hunt, you mean?

Most of my characters in Morrowind and Oblivion were Dunmer, though I started playing Oblivion as an Imperial eventually. I'll probably play Skyrim either as a Nord or as an Imperial, and then go Dunmer on my second playthrough.

wit3tyg3r · Jun 5, 2011

Blue Ninja said:
- The speechcraft wheel from Oblivion is out. Instead, the game offers speech checks like in the Fallout games.

I can't say I'm completely happy with this. While the speech wheel was terrible, I personally thought it was better than the check-system in Fallout 3. I mean, at least with the speech wheel, I could make "friends" and that would effect things like prices at shops and whether someone told me something or not. With the speech checks, it almost like a dice roll and if it lands in a certain range, then you pass. It's just too random for me. The wheel was slightly more realistic. If they just spent time to improve the wheel, I would be happy with that.

water_wendi · Jun 5, 2011

wit3tyg3r said:
I can't say I'm completely happy with this. While the speech wheel was terrible, I personally thought it was better than the check-system in Fallout 3. I mean, at least with the speech wheel, I could make "friends" and that would effect things like prices at shops and whether someone told me something or not. With the speech checks, it almost like a dice roll and if it lands in a certain range, then you pass. It's just too random for me. The wheel was slightly more realistic. If they just spent time to improve the wheel, I would be happy with that.

This is the most craziest post on GAF in forever.

Edit: even how Fallout 3 did it would be such an improvement on the Speech Wheel its not even funny. First of all, its pointless mini-game. Second, and more important, its not fun or interesting. At all. i would prefer if Skyrim had dialogue checks like how New Vegas had them.. pass/fail.. but anything, anything, is better than the Speech Wheel.

fizzelopeguss · Jun 5, 2011

Speech wheel defenders, good lord.

wit3tyg3r · Jun 5, 2011

water_wendi said:
This is the most craziest post on GAF in forever.

Edit: even how Fallout 3 did it would be such an improvement on the Speech Wheel its not even funny. First of all, its pointless mini-game. Second, and more important, its not fun or interesting. At all. i would prefer if Skyrim had dialogue checks like how New Vegas had them.. pass/fail.. but anything, anything, is better than the Speech Wheel.

I never said that I wanted to keep the speech wheel. I said it was terrible. I said that I wanted them to improve it.

fizzelopeguss said:
Speech wheel defenders, good lord.

I'm defending it because there is lots of room for improvement in that area. It definitely wasn't good, but it's more realistic than a pass/fail system. How often in the real world is a complete stranger going to tell you something just because you said "Hello" in a very charismatic way? Unless you're a very hot female in a bar, that will almost NEVER happen. You have to first bribe or make friends with the person in order for them to tell you anything.

So yeah, the wheel is more realistic, but definitely needs to be improved.

water_wendi · Jun 5, 2011

wit3tyg3r said:
I never said that I wanted to keep the speech wheel. I said it was terrible. I said that I wanted them to improve it.

And i was just saying that you saying that how Fallout 3 did speech was worse than Oblivion was crazy, imo.

Sn4ke_911 · Jun 5, 2011

Snuggles · Jun 5, 2011

Despite playing Oblivion for at least a couple hundred hours, I don't think I ever understood exactly how that speech wheel worked.

I liked what New Vegas did, that will work. Speechcraft opens up options, but so do some abilities like restoration or repair when appropriate.

Dead Man · Jun 5, 2011

water_wendi said:
This is the most craziest post on GAF in forever.

Edit: even how Fallout 3 did it would be such an improvement on the Speech Wheel its not even funny. First of all, its pointless mini-game. Second, and more important, its not fun or interesting. At all. i would prefer if Skyrim had dialogue checks like how New Vegas had them.. pass/fail.. but anything, anything, is better than the Speech Wheel.

I hate the NV speech checks, I vastly prefer the percentage system in 3.

bengraven · Jun 5, 2011

I wonder how the lack of "like/dislike percentages" will affect bartering.

I believe SC and mercantile are one and the same, so I'm assuming it will be like Fallout 3. I like that better: getting a few more hits of "like" from a character just to get a small percentage off of my bill was getting annoying.

VisanidethDM · Jun 5, 2011

DennisK4 said:
We can only hope you get put in quarantine before you can do more harm....

Look, really, I even agree on the core point you're making (as in, you're fundamentally right on principle, simply your expectations may be unrealistic).

But you've been spewing this "TW2 has a tiny budget" bullshit over the forums for weeks now. Get it in your head: 10 millions spent in human resources in Poland don't equal 10 millions in GB or the US or Japan.
It's not hard, really. And it's really bringing up a very misleading perspective, because the idea that TW2 is a small or "indie" project is detrimental to its significance to the PC scene. You NEED to invest money in a PC exclusive to get those results.

ajim · Jun 5, 2011

Snuggler said:
Despite playing Oblivion for at least a couple hundred hours, I don't think I ever understood exactly how that speech wheel worked.

I liked what New Vegas did, that will work. Speechcraft opens up options, but so do some abilities like restoration or repair when appropriate.

Same here. I prefer bribing people anyway.

Seanspeed · Jun 5, 2011

I understand it might deter replayability somewhat, but I'd prefer a New Vegas-style 'check' system thats done in the background, and whether you pass or fail determines if the option is even shown in the first place. If you fail, you just get your normal choices and dont even get the possibility to pick any 'alternate' option.

I think it'd take any of the 'tacked on' feel of the speech system out, and make it so people would have interesting stories to talk about when they discover different possibilities that other people might not even realize existed. No doubt there'd be a comprehensive FAQ up pretty quick, but that initial 'word of mouth' period would be pretty fun.

Although, I suppose that when you dont SEE the potential rewards for choosing to boost your speech skill, it'd take away a bit of the incentive to go in that direction rather than working on other skills....

.......I hate arguing with myself. I dont know.

Blue Ninja · Jun 5, 2011

bengraven said:
I believe SC and mercantile are one and the same, so I'm assuming it will be like Fallout 3. I like that better: getting a few more hits of "like" from a character just to get a small percentage off of my bill was getting annoying.

Not sure about this, but I think you're right. The speech wheel was kinda gimmicky, too, imo. Pull out your sword, and their like-percentage dropped by ten points. Use the wheel again, regain those ten points, put your sword back in its sheath, and BAM, even more disposition points.

Wallach · Jun 5, 2011

Sn4ke_911 said:

water_wendi · Jun 5, 2011

Dead Man said:
I hate the NV speech checks, I vastly prefer the percentage system in 3.

The problem with the percentage system is that its just a crap shoot that quick save/load renders skill points useless. With Pass/Fail you can at least see what level skill is needed (i think you need to have a certain amount before the choice even shows up.. i seem to remember some Doc Mitchell Medicine checks that didnt even show up when i had like <10 skill). There is also the added benefit of funny dialogue options for picking the insufficient options.

edit: i agree with Seanspeed that having the checks hidden until you can pass them is probably best. The problem with that though is the Planescape:Torment effect.. people play through as a meathead warrior and go "There are no options in this game."

VisanidethDM · Jun 5, 2011

Seanspeed said:
I understand it might deter replayability somewhat, but I'd prefer a New Vegas-style 'check' system thats done in the background, and whether you pass or fail determines if the option is even shown in the first place. If you fail, you just get your normal choices and dont even get the possibility to pick any 'alternate' option.

I think it'd take any of the 'tacked on' feel of the speech system out, and make it so people would have interesting stories to talk about when they discover different possibilities that other people might not even realize existed. No doubt there'd be a comprehensive FAQ up pretty quick, but that initial 'word of mouth' period would be pretty fun.

Although, I suppose that when you dont SEE the potential rewards for choosing to boost your speech skill, it'd take away a bit of the incentive to go in that direction rather than working on other skills....

.......I hate arguing with myself. I dont know.

I generally don't like speech skills at all. I think "hidden" dialogue choices should be handled like riddles or simply roleplaying moments, and thus being basically based on the intelligence of the player more than on than the stats of his toon.
I should persuade a king to send troops to the borders by understanding his psicology (through the info I gathered on him) and picking the right answers and questions accordingly.

If a speech skill MUST exist, it should simply alter the text in order to making it "clearer" of what speech option may be more favourable to your goal.

I understand some gamers feel that having one (or two, or three) "right" answer limits freedom, but in my opinion, having Bioware systems where EVERY answer is right is worse. Dialogue becomes just filler content. You should be able to screw up during dialogue, not simply have a slider of different grades of success.

BlueTsunami · Jun 5, 2011

Snuggler said:
Despite playing Oblivion for at least a couple hundred hours, I don't think I ever understood exactly how that speech wheel worked.

Preset magnitudes for each slice would come up every time you restart the wheel. There was a pattern for each preset so it could be easily gamed if you wanted (which made grinding speech a little easier). You basically want to hit the lower magnitude slices for the negative areas and keep the larger magnitude slices for the areas that would garner a positive reaction. I could zone out and bring someone who hated me to a disposition of 80 with ease.

Blue Ninja · Jun 5, 2011

BlueTsunami said:
Preset magnitudes for each slice would come up every time you restart the wheel. There was a pattern for each preset so it could be easily gamed if you wanted (which made grinding speech a little easier). You basically want to hit the lower magnitude slices for the negative areas and keep the larger magnitude slices for the areas that would garner a positive reaction. I could zone out and bring someone who hated me to a disposition of 80 with ease.

This. Once your speechcraft skill was at 25, and you could give the wheel a quick 'turn, it became even easier. I don't even remember what the other Speechcraft perks were. :lol

googoomuck22 · Jun 5, 2011

VisanidethDM said:
I generally don't like speech skills at all. I think "hidden" dialogue choices should be handled like riddles or simply roleplaying moments, and thus being basically based on the intelligence of the player more than on than the stats of his toon.
I should persuade a king to send troops to the borders by understanding his psicology (through the info I gathered on him) and picking the right answers and questions accordingly.

If a speech skill MUST exist, it should simply alter the text in order to making it "clearer" of what speech option may be more favourable to your goal.

I understand some gamers feel that having one (or two, or three) "right" answer limits freedom, but in my opinion, having Bioware systems where EVERY answer is right is worse. Dialogue becomes just filler content. You should be able to screw up during dialogue, not simply have a slider of different grades of success.

dayum

bengraven · Jun 5, 2011

Blue Ninja said:
Not sure about this, but I think you're right. The speech wheel was kinda gimmicky, too, imo. Pull out your sword, and their like-percentage dropped by ten points. Use the wheel again, regain those ten points, put your sword back in its sheath, and BAM, even more disposition points.

Exactly.

Seeing a character's interest in you on a scale of 1-100 was incredibly cool to me when I first played Morrowind. It was even on the back of the box: "thousands of characters that remember you" was what it said for the most part.

But 10 years later, I want them to either improve that system or go away with it. Much like game economies, which I think developers waste time on since few people take advantage of them.

VisanidethDM · Jun 5, 2011

googoomuck22 said:
dayum

Deadly typo is deadly.

subversus · Jun 5, 2011

VisanidethDM said:
I generally don't like speech skills at all. I think "hidden" dialogue choices should be handled like riddles or simply roleplaying moments, and thus being basically based on the intelligence of the player more than on than the stats of his toon.
I should persuade a king to send troops to the borders by understanding his psicology (through the info I gathered on him) and picking the right answers and questions accordingly.

haha, you're a perfectionist. The next thing you demand is that NPCs should stop repeating the same greetings phrases every time you start dialogue with them.

VisanidethDM · Jun 5, 2011

subversus said:
haha, you're a perfectionist. The next thing you demand is that NPCs should stop repeating the same greetings phrases every time you start dialogue with them.

Shouldn't this be the simpliest thing to implement?

I just need to write a dialogue tree, that leaves the player enough answers that make sense (and lead somewhere, be it success, a stall or absolute failure).

Supersimple version:

Player is talking to King Dickhead. Orcs attacked the village of Whocares, and he's sticking his troops to the capital cause he wants to fight a war of attritition and lure them into a siege. You want him to send some troops and rescue the village.

Generally speaking, what most dialogue trees do is giving you options like:

1. Help me, it's your duty - yes I know you still won't care.
2. Help me, it's your duty and I got insane superskills in speech so that Help me line is totally persuasive.
3. Help me, I'm really big and bad and high level and I yelled a lot at shopowners before, so my help me is particularly threatening.
4. Don't help me.
5. Fuck this, who cares. Bring me back to the previous dialogue option.

What I'm suggesting is something like:

1. Help me, it's your duty (he will still not care)
2. Help me, if you wait here you're eventually gonna get cut out of your own kingdom (he won't trust your plan over his and be offended by the idea you're suggesting he's stupid)
3. If you don't go rescue the village, the orcs will perceive it as a sign of weakness (you previously learned King Dickhead is horribly proud - going this line will lead to him not sending troops but leading you money to hire mercenaries and deal with it yourself, so he doesn't risk his face directly but can claim the honor if you succeed).
4. I've heard rumors that the neighbour king, LePenis, is sending troops along the borders, saving people and swooning them to his cause (Dickhead hates LePenis, as you've learned, and this will lead him to action).

Just a dumb example, but the concept should be in my opinion that dialogue isn't meant to be handled like a combat but as a riddle. It's not about stats or being eligible to pick iWin answers, it's about figuring out what makes sense.

subversus · Jun 5, 2011

VisanidethDM said:
What I'm suggesting is something like:

1. Help me, it's your duty (he will still not care)
2. Help me, if you wait here you're eventually gonna get cut out of your own kingdom (he won't trust your plan over his and be offended by the idea you're suggesting he's stupid)
3. If you don't go rescue the village, the orcs will perceive it as a sign of weakness (you previously learned King Dickhead is horribly proud - going this line will lead to him not sending troops but leading you money to hire mercenaries and deal with it yourself, so he doesn't risk his face directly but can claim the honor if you succeed).
4. I've heard rumors that the neighbour king, LePenis, is sending troops along the borders, saving people and swooning them to his cause (Dickhead hates LePenis, as you've learned, and this will lead him to action).

Just a dumb example, but the concept should be in my opinion that dialogue isn't meant to be handled like a combat but as a riddle. It's not about stats or being eligible to pick iWin answers, it's about figuring out what makes sense.

I fully agree with you but that would require an extra effort from writers and who would want this? lol

the only game which comes close to this is The Witcher series and some stuff in Obsidian games. But I have to say that having dialogue checks in RPGs is satisfying due to stats masturbation. So the perfect system would be a mix of both.

NullPointer · Jun 5, 2011

Its taken me honestly until the last few weeks to find the glory that is Oblivion. I've had it since launch and given it a go so many times, but it just never clicked even after 100+ hours... until now.

I've got an Argonian master thief build, custom tailored to let me explore the aspects of this game that you just don't find anywhere else. Oblivion was made for thievery, and being able to case a joint and choose the right time (either at night when the owners are asleep or during the day if you wait for them to do their rounds), bypass a lock with Nocturnal's skeleton key, then creep inside wearing an enchanted Dark Brotherhood cloak I stole from a cellar in Bruma, casting 'detect life' to see guards and critters through walls and night eye to help avoid traps... man, oh man, it is fucking glorious. This is what gaming freedom looks like.

I said 'fuck the main storyline' and have just gone my own way exploring, dungeon delving, gathering materials for potions, looking for the best places to rob blind, establishing good repoire with my go-to fences and merchants and doing guild questlines.

It finally clicked... and now it owns my soul. As if my hype for Skyrim wasn't bad enough. Absolutely nothing comes close to the freedom allowed in these games.

Dennis · Jun 5, 2011

VisanidethDM said:
Look, really, I even agree on the core point you're making (as in, you're fundamentally right on principle, simply your expectations may be unrealistic).

But you've been spewing this "TW2 has a tiny budget" bullshit over the forums for weeks now. Get it in your head: 10 millions spent in human resources in Poland don't equal 10 millions in GB or the US or Japan.
It's not hard, really. And it's really bringing up a very misleading perspective, because the idea that TW2 is a small or "indie" project is detrimental to its significance to the PC scene. You NEED to invest money in a PC exclusive to get those results.

Get your tongue out of Biowares and Betshedas asses.

Even if costs are lower in Poland, the budget for something like Skyrim is still much higher.

And for the sake of argument lets say the higher budget evens out with the higher wage costs Betsheda has to pay.
OK its even, so I expect the graphics of Skyrim to be reasonably close to The Witcher 2 (making concessions for the fact that Skyrim is true open-world)....

...but the graphics of Skyrim isn't anywhere fucking close to TW2! They don't even seem to approach Two Worlds II which is not only open-world like Skyrim but it also had a truly tiny budget.

There is no excuse for graphics that dated in a high profile, guaranteed multi-million seller game like Skyrim.

Its weak, its a crying shame, its indefensible.

I don't understand this desire to settle.

Remind me: are you the guy who preferred Dragon Age 2 to Dragon Age: Origins? Am I talking to THAT guy?

Blue Ninja · Jun 5, 2011

NullPointer said:
Its taken me honestly until the last few weeks to find the glory that is Oblivion. I've had it since launch and given it a go so many times, but it just never clicked even after 100+ hours... until now.

I've got an Argonian master thief build, custom tailored to let me explore the aspects of this game that you just don't find anywhere else. Oblivion was made for thievery, and being able to case a joint and choose the right time (either at night when the owners are asleep or during the day if you wait for them to do their rounds), bypass a lock with Nocturnal's skeleton key, then creep inside wearing an enchanted Dark Brotherhood cloak I stole from a cellar in Bruma, casting 'detect life' to see guards and critters through walls and night eye to help avoid traps... man, oh man, it is fucking glorious. This is what gaming freedom looks like.

I said 'fuck the main storyline' and have just gone my own way exploring, dungeon delving, gathering materials for potions, looking for the best places to rob blind, establishing good repoire with my go-to fences and merchants and doing guild questlines.

It finally clicked... and now it owns my soul. As if my hype for Skyrim wasn't bad enough. Absolutely nothing comes close to the freedom allowed in these games.

You should definitely do the Thieves Guild questline then, if you haven't already. The ending dungeons in there are fucking glorious.

MrBig · Jun 5, 2011

DennisK4 said:
...

You know I would have been able to appreciate your argument if you didn't make yourself sound like a 12 year old console fanboy that spews terms like "it needs more graphics!!!112!!!!!!"

As a visual artist I have to say fuck off.

MickeyKnox · Jun 5, 2011

Guys, guys!

Dennis hasn't even played The Witcher 2 yet, this is like Borys redux so ignore the master race cheerleader and let's get back to half naked dragon fighting.

Dennis · Jun 5, 2011

MrBig said:
You know I would have been able to appreciate your argument if you didn't make yourself sound like a 12 year old console fanboy that spews terms like "it needs more graphics!!!112!!!!!!"

As a visual artist I have to say fuck off.

As a consumer of videogames I have to feel sad that a visual artist has such a low level of ambition for the visuals of games.

As for your last paragraph, well...that warrants this:

British Monsoon · Jun 5, 2011

DennisK4 said:
Its weak, its a crying shame, its indefensible.

Well get used to it, I for one don't want to read the same shit in every Skyrim thread for the next five months.

NullPointer · Jun 5, 2011

Blue Ninja said:
You should definitely do the Thieves Guild questline then, if you haven't already. The ending dungeons in there are fucking glorious.

Just reached Master Thief status so I'm pretty sure I'm nearing the end of that questline, and yeah, they get nuts. But seriously, with expert sneak + enchanted dark brotherhood cloak + skeleton key + detect life? It takes a lot to thwart my ambitions, not that the game has stopped trying in ingenious and devious ways. ;P

I want to do the Dark Brotherhood line next but I'm still wondering how best to go about... umm... starting it - and if it will get me automagically kicked out of the thieves and mage guilds? I'm still going to need a fence as well as access to the Arcane University.

One of the side benefits of being LTTP to Oblivion, again, is all the Skyrim references and lore thats spread about if you look (and read). There's a ton of details to be gleaned from books, quest locations and just shooting the shit with some Nords.

wit3tyg3r · Jun 5, 2011

DennisK4 said:
...but the graphics of Skyrim isn't anywhere fucking close to TW2! They don't even seem to approach Two Worlds II which is not only open-world like Skyrim but it also had a truly tiny budget.

Two Worlds 2, from my understanding, isn't as open and free as TES. I can't comment about Witcher 2 because I haven't played it yet, but it still seems more linear than TES, if it follows suit of Witcher 1. The environments aren't streamlined like they are in TES. Not every door is enter-able like they are in TES. Not every NPC has engage-able dialogue like they do in TES. Not every piece of armor/weapon is equipable like they are in TES. There's no freedom to do whatever the hell you want like in TES.

I know that Two Worlds 2 and The Witcher 2 are open-world, but not open to the scale of TES. As far as freedom and openness is concerned, TES far surpasses both of your examples. And because of that, graphics have to be compromised in order to include that much freedom in the game because of hardware limitations on the PS360.

And I know you've mentioned just working on the PC version separately so that it's better graphically, but if you were the developer I don't think you would even want to go through all that trouble just so that the small percentage of graphics whores like you are pleased. It's bad for business and makes game development just that much harder.

Dennis · Jun 5, 2011

wit3tyg3r said:
And I know you've mentioned just working on the PC version separately so that it's better graphically, but if you were the developer I don't think you would even want to go through all that trouble just so that the small percentage of graphics whores like you are pleased. It's bad for business and makes game development just that much harder.

And I have already acknowledged that it may very well be the reason why Betsheda don't make a bigger effort, but

a) I am a consumer, not a corporate cheerleader

b) I think they are being shortsighted by being so far behind.

MickeyKnox · Jun 5, 2011

DennisK4 said:
a) I am a master race poseur.

Fixed.

balladofwindfishes · Jun 5, 2011

Or they're being business far sighted in the fact that they'll sell pretty much the same amount of copies if there are 5 pixels of aliasing versus 6.

Instead of spending millions to appeal to an absolute sliver of a sliver of people who would notice, let alone be able to run, anything more.

GhaleonEB · Jun 5, 2011

NullPointer said:
Just reached Master Thief status so I'm pretty sure I'm nearing the end of that questline, and yeah, they get nuts. But seriously, with expert sneak + enchanted dark brotherhood cloak + skeleton key + detect life? It takes a lot to thwart my ambitions, not that the game has stopped trying in ingenious and devious ways. ;P

I want to do the Dark Brotherhood line next but I'm still wondering how best to go about... umm... starting it - and if it will get me automagically kicked out of the thieves and mage guilds? I'm still going to need a fence as well as access to the Arcane University.

One of the side benefits of being LTTP to Oblivion, again, is all the Skyrim references and lore thats spread about if you look (and read). There's a ton of details to be gleaned from books, quest locations and just shooting the shit with some Nords.

No. There are no linkages between Guilds in Oblivion, you can do all of them at once if you wish.

I played master thief, who was an expert in archery and alchemy. All of my arrows had wicked strong poisons attached; for most of the game, I didn't even have to engage in hand to hand combat, I'd tag someone with 2-3 poisoned arrows, and they'd drop before they could even close the distance to me. That was my second character in Oblivion, but I want to spin up that kind of character in Skyrim off the bat.

Unicorn · Jun 5, 2011

I guess you guys don't like, or never played, DnD.

That's why I liked Elder Scrolls. Closest thing to videogame sandbox DnD we'll get.

bengraven · Jun 5, 2011

Unicorn said:
I guess you guys don't like, or never played, DnD.

That's why I liked Elder Scrolls. Closest thing to videogame sandbox DnD we'll get.

Yeah and now if we could only get truly Radiant questing.

As in, I beat the game, I'm just exploring and I find a mystic artifact that will take me across the game world, into dungeons and smoky taverns, etc, and all randomized.

Dennis · Jun 5, 2011

MickeyKnox said:
Fixed.

Are you five years old or something?

You think I haven't seen The Witcher 2 in action?

VisanidethDM · Jun 5, 2011

DennisK4 said:
Remind me: are you the guy who preferred Dragon Age 2 to Dragon Age: Origins? Am I talking to THAT guy?

I'm the guy who thinks they're both disgustingly bad, but 2 is better. So I guess... yes. Put me on ignore fast!

Dennis · Jun 5, 2011

VisanidethDM said:
I'm the guy who thinks they're both disgustingly bad, but 2 is better. So I guess... yes. Put me on ignore fast!

I don't put people on ignore.

I just kind of speed read across their posts.

MickeyKnox · Jun 5, 2011

DennisK4 said:
Are you five years old or something?

You think I haven't seen The Witcher 2 in action?

I think anybody who extols the virtues of a fucking consumer product designed as a piece of entertainment within a subset of pop culture WITHOUT having experienced it for themselves is either:

a) A poseur.
b) A shill.

So, take your pick.

Unicorn · Jun 5, 2011

bengraven said:
Yeah and now if we could only get truly Radiant questing.

As in, I beat the game, I'm just exploring and I find a mystic artifact that will take me across the game world, into dungeons and smoky taverns, etc, and all randomized.

That's where the mods come in.

It's really sad that Bethesda has stepped down a bit, knowing that people will mod the game to be what it should be at ship.

They are then able to cut corners, cost, time, and effort, just to make the extra dollar. It then results in threads like these where people quibble about the graphics, when the fact is that Bethesda decided to undershoot, fully knowing the community would pick up the torch, just like Oblivion.

I'm glad the robust mod tools are there, but it shouldn't make the actual dev team hold back what they could potentially do.

VisanidethDM · Jun 5, 2011

MickeyKnox said:
Fixed.

As long as Dennis acknowledges that there ARE reasons for Bethesda to act this way (and I'd say he does, and he's not forced to agree with them), then his argument is perfectly valid.

I don't agree with him, I don't share his perspective, but there's nothing "insane" in stating you'd prefer every game to be treated as a PC exclusive (and then, in case, ported to consoles). It just won't happen, but I'm sure he's well aware of that.

NullPointer · Jun 5, 2011

GhaleonEB said:
No. There are no linkages between Guilds in Oblivion, you can do all of them at once if you wish.

I actually just ran into a pretty serious conflict of interest in my most recent thieves guild mission. The item in question was being kept by a court mage of Bravil, and you're given a license to kill under certain conditions if need be. No matter what I tried or how long I waited (days and days) this guy would just not leave the sight of his precious. I even popped an invisibility potion and tried to snag it right in front of him, but as soon as you open a chest the invisibility dispels.

So I made a new save, snuck up and killed him (6x damage, huzzah) and a message popped up immediately that I had been banned from the mage's guild. Not seeing any other way to accomplish my mission I reloaded my previous save, ran in, took the item and booked it to the nearest lake and swam my Argonian ass off

Never did get any bounty for doing it that way, which is strange.

Dennis · Jun 5, 2011

MickeyKnox said:
I think anybody who extols the virtues of a fucking consumer product designed as a piece of entertainment within a subset of pop culture WITHOUT having experienced it for themselves is either:

a) A poseur.
b) A shill.

So, take your pick.

I can and have judged the graphics of The Witcher 2 because I have seen a ton of videos and screenshots.

I have NOT made any comments about the gameplay of The Witcher 2 because I haven't played the game.

The idea that you can't judge the visuals of a game from screenshots, videos and seeing someone else playing the game across their shoulder is ridiculous.

Listen, you are so eager to attack me that you are making a complete fool of yourself.

MickeyKnox · Jun 5, 2011

VisanidethDM said:
As long as Dennis acknowledges that there ARE reasons for Bethesda to act this way (and I'd say he does, and he's not forced to agree with them), then his argument is perfectly valid.

I don't agree with him, I don't share his perspective, but there's nothing "insane" in stating you'd prefer every game to be treated as a PC exclusive (and then, in case, ported to consoles). It just won't happen, but I'm sure he's well aware of that.

His point is made moot because as a consumer he's voted with his dollar by NOT buying the game he's using as a benchmark for visuals since he doesn't have the hardware to run it.

Blue Ninja · Jun 5, 2011

NullPointer said:
Just reached Master Thief status so I'm pretty sure I'm nearing the end of that questline, and yeah, they get nuts. But seriously, with expert sneak + enchanted dark brotherhood cloak + skeleton key + detect life? It takes a lot to thwart my ambitions, not that the game has stopped trying in ingenious and devious ways. ;P

I want to do the Dark Brotherhood line next but I'm still wondering how best to go about... umm... starting it - and if it will get me automagically kicked out of the thieves and mage guilds? I'm still going to need a fence as well as access to the Arcane University.

One of the side benefits of being LTTP to Oblivion, again, is all the Skyrim references and lore thats spread about if you look (and read). There's a ton of details to be gleaned from books, quest locations and just shooting the shit with some Nords.

Yep. The books in the TES games are chock-full of awesome information. Shit, I've been playing pretty much since launch, and I still come across new stuff every once in a while.

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