Dark_castle
Junior Member
If you're talking about playable characters, there's only 5 announced so far, and there may be more.
Do Gladiolus and Cor still count as bishounen? One of them is easily 30+ and the other is at 42.
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What would it take for JRPGs to be popular in the west again? Is it even possible?
- Thread starter BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
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If you're talking about playable characters, there's only 5 announced so far, and there may be more.
Do Gladiolus and Cor still count as bishounen? One of them is easily 30+ and the other is at 42.
I know it sounds silly because nobody wants Call of Duty in their Final Fantasy game, but what if we had a JRPG that was about an ordinary soldier? He's like one of those grunts you chop down in every JRPG like tissue paper, but in this case you are him and you have to work and fight to become a hero. Hell, they could even make fun of the concept by having the tutorial be an attempt to defend your employer's base against a terrorist attack of a stereotypical RPG party.
I don't know if it'd work very well, but it's weird how many RPGs emphasize your "chosen one" status. You're the badass who's above the law, the prince with eyes that can see dead souls, the child chosen by a giant key. It always feels like your success is a self-fulfilling prophecy, and I'd enjoy a game where the protagonist starts out ordinary and becomes extraordinary through his or her own actions instead of being handed the power of gods. There probably is some game on the market like that, but I don't know where it is.
Heck, why not give the hero a gun? Or a polearm? Or a club or a bow or an axe or a hammer or something, anything other than another goddamn sword.
The models should have either resembled the drawings more, or been redesigned more to lose some of the garish elements.
I don't know if it'd work very well, but it's weird how many RPGs emphasize your "chosen one" status. You're the badass who's above the law, the prince with eyes that can see dead souls, the child chosen by a giant key. It always feels like your success is a self-fulfilling prophecy, and I'd enjoy a game where the protagonist starts out ordinary and becomes extraordinary through his or her own actions instead of being handed the power of gods. There probably is some game on the market like that, but I don't know where it is.
Heck, why not give the hero a gun? Or a polearm? Or a club or a bow or an axe or a hammer or something, anything other than another goddamn sword.
Wow, those models completely lose the charm of the 2D drawings. The colors are more garish, the eyes look dead, and the anime look doesn't transition well at all.
The models should have either resembled the drawings more, or been redesigned more to lose some of the garish elements.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
In what way?
The entire cast hasn't been revealed iirc and there are two females so far.
FF7 had 3 female members iirc.
DigitalDevilSummoner
zero cognitive reasoning abilities
Actually I will have to agree with him. This generation the ball was dropped on great protagonists and given how story driven japanese rpgs are, that is a critical factor. They need to grow out of unbearably typical shonen anime characters.
That1BlackGuy
Member
Any RPG title created in Japan though I'd personally prefer something more broadening and inclusive like ERPG and WRPG if we're going to use labels.
______
On the argument of FFXV, I'd argue that the title is probably an attempt to appeal to Western tastes far more than any previous Final Fantasy offering. More grounded in realism (relatively speaking), much more Action oriented combat, etc. As I've stated throughout the thread there is no evidence to point that XIII's critical reception will factor into the sales of XV when each mainline title is unrelated.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
Suikoden 2. Play it.
DigitalDevilSummoner
zero cognitive reasoning abilities
FF XV is fundamentally Japanese.
Japan and a lot of it's fanbase likes that.
A lot of these suggestions in these type of threads seem like it could be potentially alienating to their current fanbase. Also, its not like protagonists of previous generations of JRPGs were drastically different.
Got it. Thanks for the suggestion.
Edit: Just saw the price for a copy. Holy shit. Hopefully I can find a cheaper one.
zeopower6
Member
You should know that they kinda tried that with NieR in Japan and the father NieR game... Pretty much flopped compared to the young shounen style one.
DigitalDevilSummoner
zero cognitive reasoning abilities
Yeah 10 years ago.
Right now, based on what's going on in anime, Japan likes protagonists with a bit of innovation behind them
Brother Nier was not a typical shonen character. (and father Nier was only on 360 in japan)
Don't get caught in the cliched notion that a hero has to either look like Kratos or he is "bishonen" or whatever. Some are a little too caught up in the western typical muscle heroes.
JustRiffled
Banned
How about getting the Cowboy Bebop/Samurai Champloo creator work together with a developer like Ghibli did with Level 5?
We need MORE moe. Maybe if we put in so much moe, the interest in JRPGs would crash so hard that it will eventually loop back around and be popular again.
Failing that, I think more diversity in the art styles would be an immediate eye opener to people. The ones the OP mentioned are all very different in their art direction and style, so we need more titles like that instead of JRPGs filled with...
FFX background characters
Medieval moes
Whatever this is supposed to be
Dark Souls managed to appeal to people and it had a lot of JRPG gameplay tropes and mechanics in it. I'm not saying you have to make every JRPG GRIMDARK but put something new out there
Failing that, I think more diversity in the art styles would be an immediate eye opener to people. The ones the OP mentioned are all very different in their art direction and style, so we need more titles like that instead of JRPGs filled with...
FFX background characters
Medieval moes
Whatever this is supposed to be
Dark Souls managed to appeal to people and it had a lot of JRPG gameplay tropes and mechanics in it. I'm not saying you have to make every JRPG GRIMDARK but put something new out there
Its always been based on anime.
You were like 10 before and looked past it.
Sadly no one would buy it.
Also The guy who should be making that soundtrack died.
NUJABES NO ;o;
zeopower6
Member
Innovation like what? While moe isn't that big right now, I'd say the protagonists of most popular anime nowadays aren't very innovative or cutting edge.
I don't think that would help... at all.
If the art styles of recent JRPGs aren't different enough for you, you probably need to play more of them... People say they want something different, but whenever anyone tries anything that is kind of out there, it doesn't do well. :/
Just because there are adults who read manga doesn't mean they will buy video games. For an adult, reading manga is more socially acceptable.
As for Yakuza, that series doesn't sell well in the west, despite being "adult" or "mature".
That1BlackGuy
Member
Aesthetically it is very Japanese (its a JRPG), but relative to their other offerings and speaking in terms of themes presented is where I'd disagree.
Just regarding the 'aim them at adults' point, I'm going to have a pop at both sides here. The thing is you don't have to talk down to kids with constant coming-of-age stories, just because it superficially suits the 'character growth' side of rpgs, you can aim stories at everyone by making them just good stories. Kids just don't always need a protagonist to be the same age as them- very few mythological/cultural heroes are, and you can have characters to look up to as well as embody.
You don't lose a child audience with a good story (hell, at the end of the King Arthur myth cycle, or Robin Hood, or the Argonauts, or the Odyssey most of the cast are in late middle-age), you lose a child audience with an adolescent story that thinks buckets of blood and sex are required to tell an good story by bizarrely making it important to exclude those people younger than them by just a few scant years. Having stories/films etc divided into child/mature is a very recent thing and I'm not sure it's for the best, it's just targeted marketing and seems to have the dual aspect of making both worse, by making media for kids panderingly simplistic and media for adults relentlessly dark in comparison.
When I was 18 it seemed terribly important that everything be mature, nowadays it seems more mature to leave out extreme sex and violence seeing as the greatest writers on the planet managed to tell the best stories of all time, fully encompassing our natural obsession with the driving forces of violence and sex/romance, with actually very little of it explicitly described in the vivid ways game designers seem to take pride in.
Finally, as an adult it's good sometimes to look back and remember what it was like not to be so sure about everything, and when shades of grey didn't make up most of your decisions. Playing games as the odd teenage character or watching a few cartoons isn't going to do any harm.
You don't lose a child audience with a good story (hell, at the end of the King Arthur myth cycle, or Robin Hood, or the Argonauts, or the Odyssey most of the cast are in late middle-age), you lose a child audience with an adolescent story that thinks buckets of blood and sex are required to tell an good story by bizarrely making it important to exclude those people younger than them by just a few scant years. Having stories/films etc divided into child/mature is a very recent thing and I'm not sure it's for the best, it's just targeted marketing and seems to have the dual aspect of making both worse, by making media for kids panderingly simplistic and media for adults relentlessly dark in comparison.
When I was 18 it seemed terribly important that everything be mature, nowadays it seems more mature to leave out extreme sex and violence seeing as the greatest writers on the planet managed to tell the best stories of all time, fully encompassing our natural obsession with the driving forces of violence and sex/romance, with actually very little of it explicitly described in the vivid ways game designers seem to take pride in.
Finally, as an adult it's good sometimes to look back and remember what it was like not to be so sure about everything, and when shades of grey didn't make up most of your decisions. Playing games as the odd teenage character or watching a few cartoons isn't going to do any harm.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
They need to have a vision. A vision of the world you want to create. In the days of the NES and SNES you could get away with a bird's eye view of the overworld and get away with it, giving that illusion of grand scale. You can't do that anymore. All games are linear at their core but it is important that a game maintains an illusion to keep that person hooked on it. Something that will keep people coming back to play it over and over again.
A vision can entail many things.
It can be a well written plotline with well developed and likable, maybe even characters you may relate to, but the goal is to make them what we are. Human. The plot should also establish the rules of the world you want to create and abide by those rules. And during the progression of the plotline is the character static? Are they dynamically changing as you progress? Do these changes make sense? Do they not? All these must be considered. Regardless if the plot is generic and simply good guy beats bad guy or if a story is deep and invokes deeper thought via game changing choices that diverge story paths.
Graphical fidelity is important but only in regards to what you want your world to look like. Good graphics, animation and whatnot is needed for that visual appeal. But is not always required depending on your vision. How does the world react to your actions, how do the characters animate. Quite important. It doesn't need to be the best out there but should take advantage of the full power of the system it is running on.
Gameplay is one of the most important aspects. Is it fun? Is there room for improvement? Is there a simple way to use a specific gameplay system or is there more challenging aspects of the gameplay system? Is it balanced? These must be considered. Not to mention different RPG's may have a variety of different gameplay aspects. Battling an enemy. Competing in a card game of sorts. A racing minigame. Vehicle travel. And much more.
The most important aspect is always one thing. Execution.
If you cannot meld Story, Graphics, and Gameplay into one it is often it will not hold it's audience's gaze for long, and may not have them return to experience this vision over and over again. If the story is asinine, if the graphics are poor and hard to look at, if the gameplay is stale or simply not fun then I think while you may have some good idea's they may not mesh well and thus fail.
That is what I think needs to be considered for making a good RPG.
However I am a mere gamer so my words can hold meaning or may not hold any meaning at all.
A vision can entail many things.
It can be a well written plotline with well developed and likable, maybe even characters you may relate to, but the goal is to make them what we are. Human. The plot should also establish the rules of the world you want to create and abide by those rules. And during the progression of the plotline is the character static? Are they dynamically changing as you progress? Do these changes make sense? Do they not? All these must be considered. Regardless if the plot is generic and simply good guy beats bad guy or if a story is deep and invokes deeper thought via game changing choices that diverge story paths.
Graphical fidelity is important but only in regards to what you want your world to look like. Good graphics, animation and whatnot is needed for that visual appeal. But is not always required depending on your vision. How does the world react to your actions, how do the characters animate. Quite important. It doesn't need to be the best out there but should take advantage of the full power of the system it is running on.
Gameplay is one of the most important aspects. Is it fun? Is there room for improvement? Is there a simple way to use a specific gameplay system or is there more challenging aspects of the gameplay system? Is it balanced? These must be considered. Not to mention different RPG's may have a variety of different gameplay aspects. Battling an enemy. Competing in a card game of sorts. A racing minigame. Vehicle travel. And much more.
The most important aspect is always one thing. Execution.
If you cannot meld Story, Graphics, and Gameplay into one it is often it will not hold it's audience's gaze for long, and may not have them return to experience this vision over and over again. If the story is asinine, if the graphics are poor and hard to look at, if the gameplay is stale or simply not fun then I think while you may have some good idea's they may not mesh well and thus fail.
That is what I think needs to be considered for making a good RPG.
However I am a mere gamer so my words can hold meaning or may not hold any meaning at all.
I'll shut up now
we still have fat jon
I'm watching current anime and I don't see any drastic innovation in protagonists. That said I don't see the need to innovate protagonists in JRPGs anyway. Just as long as they are diverse in designs and appearances its cool by me.
That doesn't really sound amazing. It's different with Ghibli cause...y'know...its Ghibli.
DigitalDevilSummoner
zero cognitive reasoning abilities
Not exactly, It USED to be based on anime (and therefore ultimately manga) but anime moved forward. It has been slowly improving or changing its stereotypes.
TheContact
Member
There needs to be better efforts at localizing games for the west. People had to beg for Xenoblade to get a western release even though it was already translated for PAL
DigitalDevilSummoner
zero cognitive reasoning abilities
XIII was a break for the west. So was XII.
I was let down to find that Ghibli only did designs not story.
zeopower6
Member
Manga is where many anime come from tbh.... Rarely do we get a completely original anime nowadays. The difference between now and then is that there are way more light novel adaptations sometimes even more than manga ones!
solid mike
Member
Can anyone provide a statistical chart/graph that shows decline of JRPG sales with respect to the 90s or early 2000's?
I think using moe as a selling point, a decline in writing and repeated gameplay mechanics (different from emulating the stuff that works) give some JRPGs a bad image in the west. A possible cause of why there are only a select few that really enjoy mainstream success like FF, KH, Pokemon and the Souls series.
I think using moe as a selling point, a decline in writing and repeated gameplay mechanics (different from emulating the stuff that works) give some JRPGs a bad image in the west. A possible cause of why there are only a select few that really enjoy mainstream success like FF, KH, Pokemon and the Souls series.
I've played plenty. What "out there" examples are you talking about?
zeopower6
Member
Sales in the West? If so, I really don't think they changed all that much outside of FF.
Heck, even in Japan, the same games that did well back then tend to do pretty well now. Tales had a recent boom in sales with Xillia, higher than most titles except the highest selling few in the series on the PS1.
It's pretty much a useless term now, because there's an even split of usage between "RPG made in Japan", "to a standard RPG what character action is to standard action", and "lol yellow monkeys making 60-hour anime".
You could definitely sell me on the description that FF/Tales/Suikoden are "character RPGs", Skyrim is a "lore RPG", and Dark Souls and Wizardry (US or Japan incarnations both!) are just plain RPGs.
That1BlackGuy
Member
I agree? Going forward every Final Fantasy title will make attempts at appealing to the West to maximize sales potential, in the face of global competition a large company like SquareEnix doesn't have a choice otherwise. Even then XII and XIII sold well for the genre which is indicative of the sway that the brand still holds.
Triggerhappytel
Member
This post really resonates with me, because I too lamented the loss of real exploration and discovery from the genre. Or, the Final Fantasy series at least. I love the swords and sworcery, knights and airships aesthetic, and I don't like that series increasing focus on sci-fi elements and combat above all else.
I recently bought Ni no Kuni even though I didn't really like the demo, largely because I love Ghibli and Level-5, and I love the art style and look of scale and wonder from the trailers and videos. It reminds me a lot of Dragon Quest VIII, which was the last JRPG that I really enjoyed.
And I know the genre is perfectly healthy on handhelds - can anyone recommend a really good one other than Persona 4 for my Vita? Maybe a PSP game I can download.
DigitalDevilSummoner
zero cognitive reasoning abilities
That's why I said (and therefore ultimately manga).
And I come across fewer and fewer anime that revolve around the typical shonen hero. The ones that have stood out in the last few years were Durarara, Steins Gate, Bakemonogatari, deadmans wonderland, Gargantia, Code Geass. Even shonen shows don't have heroes from the 90s anymore yet some game developers insist.
zeopower6
Member
There are a ton of little PSP JRPGs from Atlus on sale on PSN right now! 2.49 to around 9.99. Lots of them are tactical RPGs too though...
@DDS, like everything you listed is either light novel or visual novel. I find those tend to be the more unique titles when adapted, thought we till get things like Oreimo or SAO from LNs, lol.
MikeXXIeaf
Banned
I don't feel like it's some dire situation like some people try to make it out to be. There have been very good JRPGs this generation across many platforms, relevant or not.
You could look at a few different genres and see how their relevancy dropped this gen, seeing at it was dominated primarily by shooters and actions games. I'm not understanding why people feel the need to pinpoint JRPGs as if they're dying out in quality. That's far from the case.
You could look at a few different genres and see how their relevancy dropped this gen, seeing at it was dominated primarily by shooters and actions games. I'm not understanding why people feel the need to pinpoint JRPGs as if they're dying out in quality. That's far from the case.
Stone Ocean
Member
DigitalDevilSummoner
zero cognitive reasoning abilities
Not as drastic as XII and XIII.
I consider XV to be a move to very traditional Japanese story telling. The game is about status and family and formality. All core Japanese traits. Don't forget that the Japanese actually have Nobles.
IMO one of the reasons JRPGs used to be more popular was because it was one of the few genres to offer a decent story with a bit more depth.
Now everything from action games to western RPGs can provide that 'cinematic' story while also offering quicker gratification in terms of gameplay experiences.
Now everything from action games to western RPGs can provide that 'cinematic' story while also offering quicker gratification in terms of gameplay experiences.
Stone Ocean
Member
Yep. XV is a good start, aside from character design - though even that is debatable since the character designs are more earthly. A nice and interesting sounding premise about magic mafias without angst and shitty philosophical-wannabe writing, which is something many people outside of Japan might find interesting.
JustRiffled
Banned
Yakuza doesn't sell because it's badly advertised. It could reach Persona level of popularity. And anyway it's just very distinctly japanese, which is why it doesn't do well
Yes, but often adult stories aren't for kids because gore/sex but because they require higher intellectual comprehension.
DigitalDevilSummoner
zero cognitive reasoning abilities
I'd say it's neither "classic" Final fantasy nor appealing to the west. FF XV very boldly strikes me as a depiction of a futuristic Japan.
Disagree. That stuff is also in Game of Thrones which is extremely popular in America, not to mention tons of other ensemble TV shows that are popular in the west like Downton Abbey. Setting it in something that looks more present day opposed to fantasy or sci fi is also there to appeal to the west. Keep in mind this game was Versus and part of the FFXIII project, which was believe it or not, heavily focused on appealing to a specific western demographic (something Square was/is obsessed with).
Stone Ocean
Member
It's not trying to appeal to the west, but it's not something that will shun western games either.
Hardly. It's inspired by classical European class-based society/feuds using old Epic poetry as a basis for how they want to tell the story. Your ramblings about the game being very Japanese or Eastern is hardly on point.
Weltall Zero
Member
There have been plenty of localized JRPGs in the past, particularly since the PSX era. If more are not localized, it's precisely because they don't sell.
I would like most JRPGs to be patterned after seinen, not shonen. There ARE a number of JRPGs that don't follow these tropes, but by and large there are not enough of them to continuously feed a fanbase, so your choices usually boil down to turning to less refined ones, or give up on the genre altogether.
If JRPG is a genre, then Dark Souls is not a JRPG. If it simply means "RPGs from Japan", then this discussion doesnt' make a lot of sense, as there's no common ground among them (aside from, well, being from Japan, which doesn't have a lot of relevance to the topic of their popularity).
... seriously? Either refute his points with arguments of your own or cut down this elitism shit.
There are plenty of reasons. That you love the genre so much that you can't or won't see them, makes you, not him, the person least useful to be in this discussion. It's precisely the people that are unsatisfied with current JRPG tropes that have the most to contribute. What are you going to add to this thread other than "they're perfect as they are"? OK, opinion noted, thanks, let's move on.
Sadly yes at least more than what Square Enix has been offering since XII. JRPG's don't have to become Conan the barbarian influenced to succeed better, they just need designs to be more grounded and believable. You can have CRAZY designs that are believable and of this world. The shit they churn with the Lighting trilogy is just bad design by all existing standards. People buy it because hey there are no real alternatives...
Dragon Quest has remained approachable to this day. Draw from their designs and what makes them timeless.
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