• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Wii U Speculation Thread 2: Can't take anymore of this!!!

Status
Not open for further replies.

HylianTom

Banned
There's a big part of me that relishes this part of the console cycle. Every single action that a company takes is under a microscope at this point, with millions of people dissecting the company's every move, word, etc. Once the system is out and the games start rollin' in, attention to these details drops somewhat. It's almost like a presidential term, where attention to the campaign and election is huge compared to the attention paid once the person takes office.

The whole process is fun. And, again like politics, we get to witness some real gems of comedy during this part of the cycle.
 
k. lol.

Time flies pretty fast. We're already on MARCH GODDAMN 1st. E3 is 3 months and a week away. And then we can finally move from full-out speculation to full-on discussion of games and everything else that we'll definitively know.

I'm just hoping that post E3 we're not left with any lingering questions. Hopefully everything is out in the open.
 

HylianTom

Banned
k. lol.

Time flies pretty fast. We're already on MARCH GODDAMN 1st. E3 is 3 months and a week away. And then we can finally move from full-out speculation to full-on discussion of games and everything else that we'll definitively know.

I'm just hoping that post E3 we're not left with any lingering questions. Hopefully everything is out in the open.

Nintendo might do what they did with the Wii and not announce the release date or price until later (Sept for the Wii). THAT would be excruciating, waiting to see when and how the preorder process would work..
 

Hiltz

Member
Nintendo might do what they did with the Wii and not announce the release date or price until later (Sept for the Wii). THAT would be excruciating, waiting to see when and how the preorder process would work..

I don't even remember how crazy the times were back in 2006 just waiting to get the juicy news on Wii's release date and pricing. If Nintendo cares anything about GAF's sanity, it needs to provide that information at E3.
 
Nintendo might do what they did with the Wii and not announce the release date or price until later (Sept for the Wii). THAT would be excruciating, waiting to see when and how the preorder process would work..
they need to get pre-orders up as soon as possible, I hope they know that :(
 

A.KU.MU

Banned
I'm gonna go crazy before E3.

I'm already there...
M6yWV.gif
 

methodman

Banned
These types of comments bug the shit out of me.

Me too. And I have a reason.

No one here actually thinks the wii u is gonna have an OLED screen, shit it just randomly came up for the first time in about 40,000 posts in all these wii u speculation threads because of a rumor from a small wii u blog site. Joking around about it shouldn't cause someone to think they're better than us because they know it's patently false and don't want to demean themselves by joking along with us.
 

StevieP

Banned
Back to specs:

I was thinking about all the things said in this thread, and by other developers, and still faced with the prospect that Nintendo has come out and said 100% BC (which rules out software).
What of something like this?

3 x PPE (newer version of the in-order cores that are in the 360/PS3, clocked higher, more EDRAM)
1-1.5GB of GDDR3
1 x ATI GPU around 640SPUs, based on Turks
1 x Broadway/Hollywood on an SoC for BC or used as some secondary controller or what have you (since we already know the same DACs as the Wii are making a return in hardware form)
 

HylianTom

Banned
Back to specs:

I was thinking about all the things said in this thread, and by other developers, and still faced with the prospect that Nintendo has come out and said 100% BC (which rules out software).
What of something like this?

3 x PPE (newer version of the in-order cores that are in the 360/PS3, clocked higher, more EDRAM)
1-1.5GB of GDDR3
1 x ATI GPU around 640SPUs, based on Turks
1 x Broadway/Hollywood on an SoC for BC or used as some secondary controller or what have you

Wait a tick tock.. when I hear the phrase "100% BC," I immediately think of the Wii U playing GameCube game discs. Has there been some new news in the past few days that I missed (there have been gaps in my keeping-up with this), or is this also referring to the VC?
(thanks!)
 
Wait a tick tock.. when I hear the phrase "100% BC," I immediately think of the Wii U playing GameCube game discs. Has there been some new news in the past few days that I missed (there have been gaps in my keeping-up with this), or is this also referring to the VC?
(thanks!)

It's 100% BC with Wii titles but not Gamecube discs. We've known this since E3.

Edit: I don't think they ever said "100%." I expect the odd title here or there may cause some problems.
 

sfried

Member
Wait a tick tock.. when I hear the phrase "100% BC," I immediately think of the Wii U playing GameCube game discs. Has there been some new news in the past few days that I missed (there have been gaps in my keeping-up with this), or is this also referring to the VC?
(thanks!)
I think he's refering to VC compatibility about the Wii U just having to run it natively.
 

Azure J

Member
Back to specs:

I was thinking about all the things said in this thread, and by other developers, and still faced with the prospect that Nintendo has come out and said 100% BC (which rules out software).
What of something like this?

3 x PPE (newer version of the in-order cores that are in the 360/PS3, clocked higher, more EDRAM)
1-1.5GB of GDDR3
1 x ATI GPU around 640SPUs, based on Turks
1 x Broadway/Hollywood on an SoC for BC or used as some secondary controller or what have you (since we already know the same DACs as the Wii are making a return in hardware form)

Hmm, it all looks right except for the part regarding in-order cores. Nintendo seems to know what's up with the benefits that has for gaming, so I don't mind parroting that detail whenever it comes up.

Now since it's on my mind, what exactly does OoO provide for as a benefit in a console CPU design?
 
Back to specs:

I was thinking about all the things said in this thread, and by other developers, and still faced with the prospect that Nintendo has come out and said 100% BC (which rules out software).
What of something like this?

3 x PPE (newer version of the in-order cores that are in the 360/PS3, clocked higher, more EDRAM)
1-1.5GB of GDDR3
1 x ATI GPU around 640SPUs, based on Turks
1 x Broadway/Hollywood on an SoC for BC or used as some secondary controller or what have you (since we already know the same DACs as the Wii are making a return in hardware form)

As was the case with 3DS, PS3, and PS2, BC will be based partly on hardware similarities and partially on software emulation. For example, the ARM 11s in the 3DS can run ARM 9 and ARM 7 (DS) code natively AFAIK. I expect the OoOE custom POWER processor will be able to run Broadway code with minimal tinkering necessary.

Emulating the GPU should prove fairly easy as an RV770 absolutely spanks Hollywood. PS2 and some PS3 80 gig models also use software emulation for the GPU. This is how the PS2 can run games w/ additional texture smoothing and what not. If it were a straight up hardware job, as w/ Wii and GCN emulation, that would not be possible.

The most tricky part of emulation will be the low latency 1t-SRAM, however as I posted on the previous page, it appears the latency for IBM's eDRAM is even lower than this, so it appears pretty much all bases are covered. The only thing is that it appears to me that the CPU needs direct access to that (reliably rumored 32 MB pool of) eDRAM. This does seem like a strange thing to do at first if the eDRAM is being used primarily as a framebuffer, but I've actually been informed (by blu, was it?) that the GCN and Wii CPU can already access the framebuffer, and combing through the second patent bgassassin posted yesteday, this indeed does seem to be the case. All Wii U would need is a bus with 3.2 GB/s bandwidth from the CPU to the eDRAM (which may sit on a separate chip from the rest of the GPU, as it does in Xbox 360) and then it would seem most of the problems in BC are ironed out without the need for including a miniature version of the Wii chipset.
 

Lausebub

Banned
Imagine NeoGaf if ACIII comes out as a launch title for Wii U and therefore like two weeks earlier than the rest. (two months for PC)
 
Hmm, it all looks right except for the part regarding in-order cores. Nintendo seems to know what's up with the benefits that has for gaming, so I don't mind parroting that detail whenever it comes up.

Now since it's on my mind, what exactly does OoO provide for as a benefit in a console CPU design?

Out of Order means that you don't have to go through nearly as-great lengths to optimize the code. If it's an in-order cpu, you have to either do a lot of assembler or hope that your compiler orders the machine code in a way that will maximize performance.

The tradeoff is: OoO is more expensive on the hardware side, in-order can be more difficult on the software side. So Nintendo might pick the former if they think it means that it'll make third parties more willing to develop for their system.
 

StevieP

Banned
Out of Order means that you don't have to go through nearly as-great lengths to optimize the code. If it's an in-order cpu, you have to either do a lot of assembler or hope that your compiler orders the machine code in a way that will maximize performance.

The tradeoff is: OoO is more expensive on the hardware side, in-order can be more difficult on the software side. So Nintendo might pick the former if they think it means that it'll make third parties more willing to develop for their system.

The reason I mentioned in-order is because of all of the commentary in this thread and outside of it from certain leaks (as in, they took the PPEs from the PS3/360 and made a more contemporary design out of them - this would result in more juice out of them, but not drastically so which is the constant driver of these rumours).

As was the case with 3DS, PS3, and PS2, BC will be based partly on hardware similarities and partially on software emulation. For example, the ARM 11s in the 3DS can run ARM 9 and ARM 7 (DS) code natively AFAIK. I expect the OoOE custom POWER processor will be able to run Broadway code with minimal tinkering necessary.

Emulating the GPU should prove fairly easy as an RV770 absolutely spanks Hollywood. PS2 and some PS3 80 gig models also use software emulation for the GPU. This is how the PS2 can run games w/ additional texture smoothing and what not. If it were a straight up hardware job, as w/ Wii and GCN emulation, that would not be possible.

The most tricky part of emulation will be the low latency 1t-SRAM, however as I posted on the previous page, it appears the latency for IBM's eDRAM is even lower than this, so it appears pretty much all bases are covered. The only thing is that it appears to me that the CPU needs direct access to that (reliably rumored 32 MB pool of) eDRAM. This does seem like a strange thing to do at first if the eDRAM is being used primarily as a framebuffer, but I've actually been informed (by blu, was it?) that the GCN and Wii CPU can already access the framebuffer, and combing through the second patent bgassassin posted yesteday, this indeed does seem to be the case. All Wii U would need is a bus with 3.2 GB/s bandwidth from the CPU to the eDRAM (which may sit on a separate chip from the rest of the GPU, as it does in Xbox 360) and then it would seem most of the problems in BC are ironed out without the need for including a miniature version of the Wii chipset.

I don't think the TEV thing is as easy as sticking a new Radeon in and calling it a day. The reason I shy away from the software theory is the fact that Nintendo themselves said "100% bc" and "no enhancements". This, and the recent discovery of the DaC (and no optical out) would make me believe that there are some Wii guts in there somewhere - of what kind I do not know :) If there are, indeed, Wii guts inside there is no reason to use a derivative of Power7 or whatever the other going theories are. They can safely use a slightly improved version of the in-order architecture that's currently in consoles.
 

shnord

Neo Member
A multi-core system running two games at the same time isn't all that unbelievable.
The system obviously has plenty of main RAM, although to run two GameCube/Wii games simultaneously the system would need at least 48 MB of eDRAM. I think it was mentioned more recently that the eDRAM might actually be higher than the rumored 32 MB, so that aspect isn't necessarily an issue either.

Having only 3 cores might be an issue though. One core would be running CPU instructions for one game, one would be translating GPU instructions for the same game (the new GPU probably won't run Flipper/Hollywood instructions), which would only leave one for the other game. That's how I expect BC to be handled, but I could be wrong.

I still like my idea of the Wii guts being in the controller though. lol

As BG already stated, not only is it basically being rendered twice, but we're also seeing a level of lighting that is far and above what's been seen on the PS360. I think to get that running on the PS360 would require a large drop in image quality of the lighitng effects. Which to some people wouldn't be that big of a deal to others it would stand out big time.
Has it been confirmed that the scene is indeed being rendered twice? When the bird is flying around on the TV, the scene on the subscreen seems to be static, and then fades into the next scene wherever the bird ends up. It could possibly just be a panoramic image or video for all we know. Is there any up close footage of the scene on the subscreen? It would help make things more clear.
 
The reason I mentioned in-order is because of all of the commentary in this thread and outside of it from certain leaks (as in, they took the PPEs from the PS3/360 and made a more contemporary design out of them - this would result in more juice out of them, but not drastically so which is the constant driver of these rumours).



I don't think the TEV thing is as easy as sticking a new Radeon in and calling it a day. The reason I shy away from the software theory is the fact that Nintendo themselves said "100% bc" and "no enhancements". This, and the recent discovery of the DaC (and no optical out) would make me believe that there are some Wii guts in there somewhere - of what kind I do not know :) If there are, indeed, Wii guts inside there is no reason to use a derivative of Power7 or whatever the other going theories are. They can safely use a slightly improved version of the in-order architecture that's currently in consoles.

I'm not in it for a long winded debate (most of my knowledge comes from the few techies on this board, Beyond3d, and plain old googling things), but TEV isn't really as out-there as some make it seem. Again, if blu or someone would step up, they'd be able to explain it better. From what I was told, Flipper is highly reliant on very low latency texture cache reads, which the Wii U's IBM eDRAM should be able to handle with ease.

The audio DSP and the "no enhancements" BC are perfectly in-line with Nintendo's design philosophy. I'm not the mind of Miyamoto or Iwata, but I've read enough over the last year to gain a bit of insight, and my conclusion is throwing in the Wii chipset would not be a Nintendo move - especially since we've also been told (and it makes sense) that Wii U also features an ARM processor on the GPU, making unnecessary any proposed usage of the Wii chipset as an I/O processor. An in-order processor would also cause developers additional grief, and would go completely against Iwata's own words on design philosophy that I quoted on the last page.

You're entitled to your opinions, but I think you don't give Nintendo/IBM enough credit in designing hardware. There's no reason for them to settle for a PPE or a stock Radeon.
 

IdeaMan

My source is my ass!
Ok, a tiny bit of vague info will be given soon, to nip in the bud some nonconstructive speculations i've seen lately (concerning the ram and some features of the padlet).

As Yamauchi-san would say:

00B400E500525821.jpg


keepu rayflayshingou youle paidjou !
 
^^^Thank God. :D

Any chance you can nip my current BC debate w/ StevieP in the bud? I've been proven wrong on these boards before; I have no problem being proven wrong again...but I don't think I'm wrong this time. :p

Edit: Also, since it seems as if "tablet only" gameplay will not be an OS-level function, and up to the developers, can you give us your opinion as to how common this feature will be in full-scale games.
 

StevieP

Banned
^^^Thank God. :D

Any chance you can nip my current BC debate w/ StevieP in the bud? I've been proven wrong on these boards before; I have no problem being proven wrong again...but I don't think I'm wrong this time. :p

You could very well be right. I'm just thinking out loud based on

1) What Nintendo's said ("no enhancements" and "100% bc") which would line up with dedicated hardware rather than a software emulation layer which would allow for enhancements

2) Multiple rumours in and out of the thread suggesting easy portability from 360 (Darksiders), "not a drastic increase over current gen" (multiple)

Either of us could be wrong :)
 

antonz

Member
The 768mb system rumor etc is older than the hills. It first circulated as 768MB of edram. Im sure that might refresh some memories.
 
Ok, a tiny bit of vague info will be given soon, to nip in the bud some nonconstructive speculations i've seen lately (concerning the ram and some features of the padlet).

As Yamauchi-san would say:

00B400E500525821.jpg


keepu rayfrayshingou youle paidjou !

What did you say about my mother?!
D:
 

Skiesofwonder

Walruses, camels, bears, rabbits, tigers and badgers.
Paging Paul Gale, is Paul Gale in the office?

This is how desperate we have become.

Paging someone even though we know they have given out suspect (at best) information.

Please GDC, give us some concrete information to talk about. Maybe even a hint at a Wii U game we haven't heard about. Please GDC, I BEG OF YOU!!!
 
This is how desperate we have become.

Paging someone even though we know they have given out suspect (at best) information.

Please GDC, give us some concrete information to talk about. Maybe even a hint at a Wii U game we haven't heard about. Please GDC, I BEG OF YOU!!!

weren't we always desperate, I mean really desperate?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom