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Born Sexy Yesterday

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msdstc

Incredibly Naive
If she wasn't a young sexy Turing test specimen would Caleb have helped her to the extent he did? I agree the ending subverts the trope but during the course of the movie she displays a naivety about the outside world but is quite wise to what's happening in the compound.

That's the point of the movie. If anything it's a commentary on that particular trope.
 
It is such an anime like trope, it makes live action media feel like anime. Weakest part of Firefly, for instance, thought they also subvert it on another episode with another character.
 

pa22word

Member
Meh that's just terrifying.

Though to be honest it seems more prevalent in sci-fi. Always associated it more with people into that.

I guess red pill is basically this too, but redpill was started by a bunch of people into this stuff as well.

I'm not saying all nerdy men are like this, or even that nerd culture is <x>. But I wonder if there's a bit of insecurity rooted in the culture not being seen as the most macho man in the room, which in turn drives this phenomenon- the whole desire to be seen as the greatest and best.

I don't know. I'm speaking in generalities here.

You're honestly shocked and appalled that a society that reinforces women to wear makeup to look younger and shave every ounce of hair off their body anywhere but their head in order to look strikingly more prepubescent, where "teen" porn is massively popular virtually everywhere, and has traditionally placed high value on feminine virginity as some kind of mark of moral piety would lead to the development of some men with innocence and naivety as a fetish? Seriously? >.>
 
I think it is a bit misguided to address the ending directly at science fiction writers in general rather than screenwriters. I think movie science fiction and written science fiction are so far away in terms of representation that one could only group them together if one has not been reading too many novels of the past decades.

I imagine that with some products, the writing has to help making money, and one is just not ignoring a tried and true marked like lonely men. Like this is not just a trope in manga, it is a genre.
 

Gisele

Banned
this dude explaining it as clips of it play really exemplifies how fucking creepy this is.

Seriously. I had to quit about six minutes in because it was too upsetting in this context.

It's a worthy subject to address and I'm glad he's done it.
 

jasonng

Member
I think it is a bit misguided to address the ending directly at science fiction writers in general rather than screenwriters. I think movie science fiction and written science fiction are so far away in terms of representation that one could only group them together if one has not been reading too many novels of the past decades.

I imagine that with some products, the writing has to help making money, and one is just not ignoring a tried and true marked like lonely men. Like this is not just a trope in manga, it is a genre.

I would say this trope is more specifically for the genre.

I do agree that the fantasy of male dominance over a naive female can be found in all genres of nonfiction.
 

pa22word

Member
I would say this trope is more specifically for the genre.

I do agree that the fantasy of male dominance over a naive female can be found in all genres of nonfiction.

The trope is literally thousands of years old, there being examples of it in Roman writings. Just uh, more explicit because they didn't exactly have the same age taboos we do.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
You're honestly shocked and appalled that a society that reinforces women to wear makeup to look younger and shave every ounce of hair off their body anywhere but their head in order to look strikingly more prepubescent, where "teen" porn is massively popular virtually everywhere, and has traditionally placed high value on feminine virginity as some kind of mark of moral piety would lead to the development of some men with innocence and naivety as a fetish? Seriously? >.>

You're crossing wires here. The Japanese have a more overt focus on pornography with young girls and yet don't have the same body hair patterns. You're arguing that this only became an issue in the 1980s? You're conflating a bunch of variables in no clearly related way.

This trope is disgusting and should be banned.

The straw feminist!

As to the topic, I'm not really sure the choice he picks to lead off works (Tron), and I think he's ignoring some of the other cultural reasons for these characters. The innocents and free spirits are a stock character divorced from sexuality. I think the argument of "falls in love despite the inexperience, not because of it" actually applies to a fair number of the female examples he cites. That doesn't mean that we don't have broader issues sexualizing women differently from men and the like, but it feels like he started with the conclusion and worked backwards (I can't think of vanishingly few romances in movies now where the women and men aren't on equal footing in these terms.)

More generally, I've always found the characters he's talking about annoying as hell. The "well he's/she's dumb/crazy/a handful but can teach us stuck-up squares about life" lessons are so divorced from reality and common sense. It's like the manic pixie dream girl&#8212;only the truly desperate would not run away from those kinds of people in real life, they'd be insufferable.

Meh that's just terrifying.

Though to be honest it seems more prevalent in sci-fi. Always associated it more with people into that.

I guess red pill is basically this too, but redpill was started by a bunch of people into this stuff as well.

I'm not saying all nerdy men are like this, or even that nerd culture is <x>. But I wonder if there's a bit of insecurity rooted in the culture not being seen as the most macho man in the room, which in turn drives this phenomenon- the whole desire to be seen as the greatest and best.

I don't know. I'm speaking in generalities here.

I dunno. Especially now that nerd culture is so mainstreamed and diffuse, I think it's kind of pointless to try and pin the problems on certain subgroups. I think the reality is that there's always just a certain percentage of people that are shitty about some sort of societal factor, and it appearing more prevalent probably says more about our in-groups and selection bias than anything else.
 

pa22word

Member
You're crossing wires here. The Japanese have a more overt focus on pornography with young girls and yet don't have the same body hair patterns. You're arguing that this only became an issue in the 1980s? You're conflating a bunch of variables in no clearly related way.

The Japanese aren't the west. Removing body hair to appear prepubescent has been a cultural trend line running in western society for thousands of years. Has it memetically morphed over the centuries? Of course, but it's just as good as an example as any when trying to point to just a few of the odd cultural ticks that are around in western society that originated as a way to emphasize sexual innocence and purity.

And 1980s?! Where the hell did you get that from?
 

Fuchsdh

Member
The Japanese aren't the west. Removing body hair to appear prepubescent has been a cultural trend line running in western society for thousands of years. Has it memetically morphed over the centuries? Of course, but it's just as good as an example as any when trying to point to just a few of the odd cultural ticks that are around in western society that originated as a way to emphasize sexual innocence and purity.

And 1980s?! Where the hell did you get that from?

Because until the 90s, pornography had a lot more pubic and body hair for men and women in the west. You're arguing that everyone's standard of grooming is about looking pre-pubescent without any real supporting evidence.
 

pa22word

Member
Because until the 90s, pornography had a lot more pubic and body hair for men and women in the west. You're arguing that everyone's standard of grooming is about looking pre-pubescent without any real supporting evidence.
That's not even close to what I actually said.

I said it originated for that reason, why people continue to do it is more complicated.
 

devilhawk

Member
Do we think Risky Business is a gender swapped version? Weird Science is interesting to think about too.

Thinking on it, there are a bunch of movies where the guy is the naive one in an unbalanced relationship too (think crap like She's out of my league). Likely because there have been a crap load of movies and media over the years.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
That's not even close to what I actually said.

I said it originated for that reason, why people continue to do it is more complicated.

Again, you're still running with an assertion that you haven't even tried proving (and even the OP's video isn't.)
 
I also guess it's been going on since 50 BC with Ovid and Pygmalion...

I do like how GB Shaw turned that around in his take though. (I first read that when I was younger and wanted the "happy" ending).
 

PaulloDEC

Member
Interesting that the first example given in the video is also kinda the least applicable; Quorra in Tron Legacy seems barely worth a mention when compared with the examples that follow.

Interesting video overall, though. I rewatched The Fifth Element just recently and thought the same things about Leeloo.
 

Kin5290

Member
Interesting that the first example given in the video is also kinda the least applicable; Quorra in Tron Legacy seems barely worth a mention when compared with the examples that follow.

Interesting video overall, though. I rewatched The Fifth Element just recently and thought the same things about Leeloo.
Yeah, Quorra is a little different. Her relationship with the protagonist is emotional but not necessarily sexual, and the main character is not an experienced washout but rather a young, inexperienced screwup.
 

Burbeting

Banned
Great video. This character archetype has always felt really creepy, but I haven't been able to pin-point just what part of it made it that way.
 

PaulloDEC

Member
Yeah, Quorra is a little different. Her relationship with the protagonist is emotional but not necessarily sexual, and the main character is not an experienced washout but rather a young, inexperienced screwup.

It's also a case of Sam being the one out of his element; the Grid is Quorra's home turf, while Sam is a stranger learning the ropes. It also seems like Quorra's initial interest in Sam is more about her fascination with the real world than any particular interest in him.

That being said, it's definitely true that Sam fulfils the "first and only man in her life" role for Quorra as the video talks about towards the end (presumably she doesn't go for the silver fox types). There's also a hell of a power imbalance going on if you look at things from the perspective of users being essentially gods to programs on the Grid.
 

proto

Member
I just went down a wormhole watching this guy's videos.

It makes me realize how much misogynist shit is going on in the media we consume.

This video on lovable misogynists in pop culture is spot on. I'm definitely going to try and be a more active viewer so I can spot stuff like this so it doesn't burrow its way into my brain.
 

ItIsOkBro

Member
the creepiest thing about this is...just what exactly are you trying to achieve by transplanting the mind of a child into the body of a woman and making them a love interest? it varies from person to person, but the age of consent is less about physically being an adult and more about mentally being an adult and having a certain level of maturity and experience to make informed decisions. so fucking what if it's an adult body, these love interests may as well be kids. like i'm pretty sure someone that's intellectual disabled (physically an adult, mentally a child) also can't consent and that's somewhat analogous to this trope.
 

Seesaw15

Member
Agree with 99% of the video but I have to call him out for his BIG reading. The character of Susan fell in love with Tom Hanks character because he was young and naive at heart and wasn't jaded like the adult men. Not as lascivious as with male characters but it was Tom Hanks child like qualities that she fell in love with.

Also if he was going to bring up Brendon Frasers films he probably should have brought up Encino Man and George of the Jungle as examples of woman finding the born sexy yesterday trope attractive.

MV5BMTMzMDQxNzQ5Nl5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwNDE4NDI3._V1_.jpg
 

Forceatowulf

G***n S**n*bi
So fucking glad someone did a vid on this. I've noticed this shit for the loooongest time.

"Innocence is not sexy. Experience is sexy."

tenor.gif
 

ezekial45

Banned
Would you guys say Spike Jonze's 'Her' is somewhat of a subversion of this trope?

The main character's ex-wife criticizes him for having a relationship with his OS, and towards the end of the movie the OS moves on to be with another OS, while the MC begins a relationship with his adult human friend.
 

Seesaw15

Member
Also Earth Girls are Easy is another film where this was pitched at women. Though I guess for men innocence is a power fantasy while for women its a break from all the bullshit that adult men do.
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I find amusing the idea that with how many remakes and reboots there are, at some point someone must have tried to pitch a version of Big with the genders reversed. Creepy AF, right?

Can you imagine the face of someone being pitched a reverse gender version of Big over lunch? That would be hilarious to see.
 
I find amusing the idea that with how many remakes and reboots there are, at some point someone must have tried to pitch a version of Big with the genders reversed. Creepy AF, right?

Can you imagine the face of someone being pitched a reverse gender version of Big over lunch? That would be hilarious to see.

Isn't that what 13 Going on 30 was?

(I've never seen 13 Going on 30 past the trailers)

I did see 17 Again, which was about Matthew Perry turning into Zac Efron, and that got into hijinks with his wife and daughter that were...weird.
 
I find amusing the idea that with how many remakes and reboots there are, at some point someone must have tried to pitch a version of Big with the genders reversed. Creepy AF, right?

Can you imagine the face of someone being pitched a reverse gender version of Big over lunch? That would be hilarious to see.

The Fruit is Swelling.

It is alternately hilarious and horrifying.
 
The Fruit is Swelling.

It is alternately hilarious and horrifying.

The second thing that came up was a youtube link of what seems to be the whole film, and every time I skipped ahead I ended up in a sex scene haha

Isn't that what 13 Going on 30 was?

(I've never seen 13 Going on 30 past the trailers)

I did see 17 Again, which was about Matthew Perry turning into Zac Efron, and that got into hijinks with his wife and daughter that were...weird.

Haven't seen it either. It seem to be about time travelling to the future. I think that's a somewhat effective change that does diminish the creepiness that could come from translating Big 1:1 with gender swap. At the very least any love interests are still of her actual age when she come back to the past.
 

r1chard

Member
Thinking on it, there are a bunch of movies where the guy is the naive one in an unbalanced relationship too (think crap like She's out of my league). Likely because there have been a crap load of movies and media over the years.
I've not seen She's Out Of My League but from a random synopsis on the web "an average guy stuck in a dead-end job, can't believe his luck when a gorgeous, successful woman named Molly (Alice Eve) falls in love with him" that doesn't sound anything like a reversal of "born sexy yesterday" but rather yet another male fantasy brought to life on screen - ie. it's all about the guy still. He's not naive or wise.
 
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