There's always been a part of the libertarian wing pushing for UBI.
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RNC raises millions more than DNC in July
- Thread starter ponpo
- Start date
Frozenprince
Banned
Which baffles me to no end.There's always been a part of the libertarian wing pushing for UBI.
I think people should be more hopeful about who the nominee will be in 2020 rather than preemptively submitting to a candidate that will force many to take a trip to their local vomitorium shortly after visiting the polling booth.
I care less about who the candidate is than making sure that Trump isn't the president after January 20th, 2021. Zuckerberg isn't my ideal candidate and I won't vote for him in the primary. But if he runs and wins, so be it.
It always pains me when I see people commenting "Another job lost..." on articles about some new form of automation. Like, do we just want to hault technological progress so your uncle can keep sticking labels on mustard bottles? What really scares me is that no Dems are willing to be truly progressive and fight for UBI. This is likely the position Zuckerberg is going to flank them from in 2020.
I think being for universal basic income might be a suicidal position to take at the moment. The idea isn't mainstream enough in the U.S. and Republicans will frame it like the Democrats are going to take your hard earn money by increasing taxes and give it to the "other". Kinda like they did with the myth of "welfare queens" and stuff. We're going to need it in the coming decades as automation starts taking more jobs, but the "fuck you, got mine" mentality in this country is pretty common.
hydragonwarrior
Member
Get someone who can rile up the DNC base, speak like they're human and not reciting a speech whether in front of millions or in front of some people, who doesn't have optics which can represent them as cold or boring, and finally someone who isn't just known to be just a career politician.
That's what I think will work.
But this person has to be fully supported by every dem. I don't know how Hillary managed to get her base to vote for Obama after the loss but if there's another fracture again that level of support NEEDS to happen. And for fuck sakes I hope the DNC has learned not to pull of any shit that they did to Bernie because it made it that much harder for Bernie himself to get people to vote for Hillary.
That's what I think will work.
But this person has to be fully supported by every dem. I don't know how Hillary managed to get her base to vote for Obama after the loss but if there's another fracture again that level of support NEEDS to happen. And for fuck sakes I hope the DNC has learned not to pull of any shit that they did to Bernie because it made it that much harder for Bernie himself to get people to vote for Hillary.
VendettaRed07
Member
I agree with this notion to the point where I'm considering just registering as a republican and voting for whichever Republican in a 2020 primary challenge least resembles a nazi just so there is a 0% percent chance of the madness continuing any further than it has toI care less about who the candidate is than making sure that Trump isn't the president after January 20th, 2021. Zuckerberg isn't my ideal candidate and I won't vote for him in the primary. But if he runs and wins, so be it.
But at the same time I feel like not entertaining or already solidifying the presidency of Mark Zuckerburg because eww
Get someone who can rile up the DNC base, speak like they're human and not reciting a speech whether in front of millions or in front of some people, who doesn't have optics which can represent them as cold or boring, and finally someone who isn't just known to be just a career politician.
That's what I think will work.
But this person has to be fully supported by every dem. I don't know how Hillary managed to get her base to vote for Obama after the loss but if there's another fracture again that level of support NEEDS to happen. And for fuck sakes I hope the DNC has learned not to pull of any shit that they did to Bernie because it made it that much harder for Bernie himself to get people to vote for Hillary.
I believe it was because Obama gave her a position in his administration. (At least that 's what I vaguely recall, I was only 15-16 at the time and wasn't following politics. I just listened to what mom told me.)
Even then more Bernie Supporters voted Clinton than Clinton Supporters voted Obama in 08, correct me if I'm wrong.
Get someone who can rile up the DNC base, speak like they're human and not reciting a speech whether in front of millions or in front of some people, who doesn't have optics which can represent them as cold or boring, and finally someone who isn't just known to be just a career politician.
That's what I think will work.
But this person has to be fully supported by every dem. I don't know how Hillary managed to get her base to vote for Obama after the loss but if there's another fracture again that level of support NEEDS to happen. And for fuck sakes I hope the DNC has learned not to pull of any shit that they did to Bernie because it made it that much harder for Bernie himself to get people to vote for Hillary.
The greatest example of putting pride to the side was Hillary stumping for Obama after the '08 primary. Her support was full-throated and enthusiastic.
This is the lesson for the left. I didn't like Bernie, not for his brand of politics but because he was a liar. That said, if he had one the primary, I would have out and campaigned for him like I was the captain of his fanclub.
The left needs to do a better job of knowing who our true enemies are.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Because you don't understand the core issue:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population_density
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_and_population_of_European_countries
Now, it's not a perfect match 1:1, but there might be a pretty good correlation between these two things and how they approach policy!
It's far easier to organize when you have a critical mass of people. When a large swath of your country is agrarian and rural, that tends to hold things back! (because if you're spread over a large amount of terrain, organization is rough!)
This doesn't make any sense either. Large swathes of Europe are countryside. And in an Internet age, why exactly do you need physical proximity to organize again? This all reads like a bunch of hand-waving to me trying to excuse why Americans are brainwashed from birth to hate unions and so unions are dying. This is the crux of the issue and after the Democrats abandoned all attempts to be pro-union, it has become essentially the reality of American labor.
Even then more Bernie Supporters voted Clinton than Clinton Supporters voted Obama in 08, correct me if I'm wrong.
You are correct. A lot of Hillary supporters pretend this isn't true but it is.
Bruce Springsteen
Member
Hillary raised more money than Donald and it didn't do her any good.
Irrelevant when trump had billions in free 24/7 coverage from CNN and MSNBC
hydragonwarrior
Member
You are correct. A lot of Hillary supporters pretend this isn't true but it is.
I suppose it's tough to tell because these two sides are still arguing against each other even to this day. Perhaps it's more apparent because the dems lost (meanwhile any bitter fruit between Obama and Hillary stumpers seemed to go away after dems won the WH).
Even then more Bernie Supporters voted Clinton than Clinton Supporters voted Obama in 08, correct me if I'm wrong.
No, you aren't wrong. The vast majority of Bernie supporters voted for Hillary. Don't believe the hype you read about "leftists tearing the Democratic Party apart". It's just fiction.
Zuckerberg is trash, stop it
Is he more trash than Trump? Because that is the only question that matters, assuming he wins the primary (I don't think he will).
The divide in the Democratic Party has been between social justice and economic justice. The problem is that the Democratic Party refuses to go all-in on either option.
That's because the two are not in opposition, they're actually necessary complements to each other (really, they're the same thing).
The greatest example of putting pride to the side was Hillary stumping for Obama after the '08 primary. Her support was full-throated and enthusiastic.
This is the lesson for the left. I didn't like Bernie, not for his brand of politics but because he was a liar. That said, if he had one the primary, I would have out and campaigned for him like I was the captain of his fanclub.
The left needs to do a better job of knowing who our true enemies are.
liar huh?
Irrelevant when trump had billions in free 24/7 coverage from CNN and MSNBC
No, you aren't wrong. The vast majority of Bernie supporters voted for Hillary. Don't believe the hype you read about "leftists tearing the Democratic Party apart". It's just fiction.
they did .. hillary simply wasnt charismatic enough period.
Zuckerberg is trash, stop it
not compared to trump and i dont get this whole shitting on super rich ppl .We have buffet gates etc ... not all rich ppl are your viewpoint . get over it they're rich they have different ideas just like we all do .. especially with tech billionaires there is almost no social construct holding you back the percentages to making it to that echelon is so ridiculously small there is no social thing holding you back ..... Also its okay to be rich and want to do politics. im pretty sure 90% of gaf if it had the money would do it themselves.
Unions are dying because in order to unionize, you need leverage. Without a critical mass of people in one place and industry, you do not have it.This doesn't make any sense either. Large swathes of Europe are countryside. And in an Internet age, why exactly do you need physical proximity to organize again? This all reads like a bunch of hand-waving to me trying to excuse why Americans are brainwashed from birth to hate unions and so unions are dying. This is the crux of the issue and after the Democrats abandoned all attempts to be pro-union, it has become essentially the reality of American labor.
West Virginia used to be a stalwart democratic state. And what caused it not to be? The coal industry died.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Which baffles me to no end.
It's not that surprising.
It's possible to eliminate several of the regulations libertarians hate so much with a UBI.
Leverage is returned to the employee, and so job protections are not nearly as important.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
What does UBI stand for. I feel like an idiot for not knowing.
Universal Basic Income
It would be quite disruptive, but would replace the vast majority of welfare, and give employees back their leverage.
It's not that surprising.
It's possible to eliminate several of the regulations libertarians hate so much with a UBI.
Leverage is returned to the employee, and so job protections are not nearly as important.
ubi is imo a basic solution .... i dont know if it'll happen in my lifetime but its happening there is literally no two ways about it unless someone comes up with a distrubution system we arent aware of .
Universal Basic Income
It would be quite disruptive, but would replace the vast majority of welfare, and give employees back their leverage.
OK thanks. I think it is a good idea though I'm not sure if Democrats can win on it.
No, you aren't wrong. The vast majority of Bernie supporters voted for Hillary. Don't believe the hype you read about "leftists tearing the Democratic Party apart". It's just fiction.
Well aware it is. There's been a movement to push the Democratic Party left for the last couple of years now; the fact that the final two people in the primary standing were much more left than Obama and both worked to form the most progressive party platform has given me hope in the Party.
Dirtyshubb
Member
https://youtu.be/RbGYIkz9t3k
Here is the video of Pelosi defending herself as leader because she can raise the most money.
Here is the video of Pelosi defending herself as leader because she can raise the most money.
Is he more trash than Trump? Because that is the only question that matters, assuming he wins the primary (I don't think he will).
We better hope he doesn't.
not compared to trump and i dont get this whole shitting on super rich ppl .We have buffet gates etc ... not all rich ppl are your viewpoint . get over it they're rich they have different ideas just like we all do .. especially with tech billionaires there is almost no social construct holding you back the percentages to making it to that echelon is so ridiculously small there is no social thing holding you back ..... Also its okay to be rich and want to do politics. im pretty sure 90% of gaf if it had the money would do it themselves.
Zuckerberg does not belong in the same sentence as Buffet and Gates.
https://youtu.be/RbGYIkz9t3k
Here is the video of Pelosi defending herself as leader because she can raise the most money.
July 20th: "House Democrats are starting to outraise their Republican counterparts"
July 31: "Nancy Pelosi's fundraising breaks $25 million for 2017"
Pelosi is the House Minority Leader, it stands that her fundraising efforts is likely more focused on the House which means the DCCC, not the DNC. She seems to be doing a decent job.
eBay Huckster
Member
We only have two major parties. And money is usually an accurate predictor of who will win electoral races.
...provided we're actually making a 1:1 comparison, which DNC:RNC absolutely is not and has never been
iirc you need to combine DNC/DSCC/DCCC numbers to get the full picture, and the latter two are raising a hell of a lot more comparatively
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
I think being for universal basic income might be a suicidal position to take at the moment. The idea isn't mainstream enough in the U.S. and Republicans will frame it like the Democrats are going to take your hard earn money by increasing taxes and give it to the "other". Kinda like they did with the myth of "welfare queens" and stuff. We're going to need it in the coming decades as automation starts taking more jobs, but the "fuck you, got mine" mentality in this country is pretty common.
I don't think people are sold on it yet either, but I think Zuckerberg's very reasonable stance on UBI will pull primary voters away from the actual best choice available, potentially meaning Zuckerberg will get the nom. Or, an overall weaker candidate will take advantage of the fissure in a way that Trump did to an extent, by conveniently sliding in while establishment Republicans couldn't decide if their best shot was to line up behind Jeb or Marco or Cruz or Kasich.
That's because the two are not in opposition, they're actually necessary complements to each other (really, they're the same thing).
I understand that, but most, at least on here, don't seem to. The best strategy would be to tailor the Democratic message depending on local needs, but that can't really happen as long as we continue to replay the 2016 Democratic primaries.
Which baffles me to no end.
I'm a Neoclassical Liberal (politically libertarian but not technically a libertarian because I don't believe in total self-ownership because I believe we have positive duties to others and don't believe in voluntary slave contracts. Also a Neoclassical liberal is not a neoliberal. I want to preemptively combat that possible confusion) Political Philosopher. I first heard the argument for UBI when I went to a research conference hosted by the Institute for Humane Studies (a big libertarian non-profit organization). Here's a great article from Matt Zwolinksi. A Political Philosopher at the University of San Diego.
https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/libertarian-case-basic-income
In Summary and my thoughts
1) A Basic Income Guarantee would be much better than the current welfare state.
2) A Basic Income Guarantee might be required on libertarian grounds as reparation for past injustice.
3. A Basic Income Guarantee might be required to meet the basic needs of the poor.
Surprisingly to modern readers Milton Friedman and F.A. Hayek both supported an UBI.
Matt Zwolinksi and I are for UBI on the grounds that it replace or partially replace the "welfare state" not that it complements it. The most damning objection against it for other libertarians is that it wouldn't be implemented correctly and would just be another government program that would balloon out of control. Personally I wouldn't trust someone like Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren to implement a UBI correctly even though I do support it.
https://youtu.be/RbGYIkz9t3k
Here is the video of Pelosi defending herself as leader because she can raise the most money.
Keep attacking skilled statespeople on your side who are also conveniently hated by your opponents profoundly. Also, while people are at it, let's hear some whine about the Democrats accepting large donations!
Oh, you linked a berner primary truther doing it. Nice.
For what it's worth regarding Zuckerberg. I've never voted for a Democrat in my life but if he was the nominee in 2020 I'd vote for him due to his libertarianish positions (I would trust him to implement a UBI correctly unless circumstances around his proposal changed i.e. it's clear he's beholden to the far left wing of the democrat party) and because Trump has been such a trainwreck. If the Democrats nominate anyone else I won't vote or I'll vote for the Libertarian candidate like I did in 2016.
We better hope he doesn't.
Zuckerberg does not belong in the same sentence as Buffet and Gates.
so ... hes rich gates and buffet are very philantropic/ liberal zuckerberg is less so ... its not like every rich person has to be one way .. we have the mercers on the other end of the spectrum.
i personally think cuban is a good candidate for 2020.
I like Mark Cuban. He is pretty libertarian. But he is also a good guy,
I like Mark Cuban. He is pretty libertarian. But he is also a good guy,
Really I didn't know that. I'd probably vote for him too. God I wish the libertarian party in the U.S. wasn't so incompetent. There are issues I think are real winners. Libertarians are for criminal justice reform and against civil asset forfeiture, most of them are pro-choice, they are actually further to the left on immigration than democrats (see Bryan Caplan who compares immigration laws to Jim Crow laws http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2012/03/tell_me_the_dif_1.html and http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2017/03/is_immigration.html), they are mostly cosmopolitan as opposed to nationalistic, they are for small government, they are for deregulation. There's something for left and right in there but the party has been hijacked by crazies who argue about whether individuals can own nuclear weapons or whether requiring driver's licenses constitutes government overreach rather than the political philosophers who do good work.
old manatee
Banned
Zuckerberg isn't perfect (or maybe even good). But he is definitely better than Trump. If he runs as a Democrat and wins the primary, every single left leaning person that doesn't vote for him in the general deserves another four years of Trump.
I can't believe we're already back here.
cartoon_soldier
Member
This is one of those things where Dems can't win with the base. You won't want them to raise money from big donors, which is how RNC is raising money but you want them to raise more money.
Anyway, DCCC is outraising NRCC, and DCCC is what Dems need to take back the base.
Anyway, DCCC is outraising NRCC, and DCCC is what Dems need to take back the base.
Herr Schwarz
Banned
Wasn't there a scene in the Facebook movie where the lawyers were like
"you shouldn't be pleading your case to a jury because you're really unlikeable"
"you shouldn't be pleading your case to a jury because you're really unlikeable"
old manatee
Banned
Wasn't there a scene in the Facebook movie where the lawyers were like
"you shouldn't be pleading your case to a jury because you're really unlikeable"
I almost want to see him run just to witness which weird, manufactured personality he goes with.
For what it's worth regarding Zuckerberg. I've never voted for a Democrat in my life but if he was the nominee in 2020 I'd vote for him due to his libertarianish positions (I would trust him to implement a UBI correctly unless circumstances around his proposal changed i.e. it's clear he's beholden to the far left wing of the democrat party) and because Trump has been such a trainwreck. If the Democrats nominate anyone else I won't vote or I'll vote for the Libertarian candidate like I did in 2016.
Pretty good explanation of why Zuckerberg would be a disastrous nominee for the Democrats. Let's not trade the 60% of the country that votes Democratic for the 2% of the country that votes Libertarian.
Basically if I can't trust the guy to run a hate speech filter or trust him not to fire the team that keeps fake news off of everybody's feed, I don't really see why I would trust him to run the country. All of Zuckerberg's choices with regards to Facebook have demonstrated an amoral dedication to profit.
Pretty good explanation of why Zuckerberg would be a disastrous nominee for the Democrats. Let's not trade the 60% of the country that votes Democratic for the 2% of the country that votes Libertarian.
Basically if I can't trust the guy to run a hate speech filter or trust him not to fire the team that keeps fake news off of everybody's feed, I don't really see why I would trust him to run the country. All of Zuckerberg's choices with regards to Facebook have demonstrated an amoral dedication to profit.
He also paid billions of dollars to a white nationalist because he made a VR helmet.
He also paid billions of dollars to a white nationalist because he made a VR helmet.
Right, there are so many shitty things Zuckerberg did I forgot about that one! And then they held a dev event and tried to convince everybody to keep developing for Oculus with Luckey still working for the company.
freeofgreed
Member
Why are people talking about Zuckerberg vs Trump like that's some possibility? Literally nobody likes this dude. He has no base.
Too bad shit like their presidential candidate getting boo'd over saying he'd vote for the civil rights act kills any chance of me ever even considering their party.
Really I didn't know that. I'd probably vote for him too. God I wish the libertarian party in the U.S. wasn't so incompetent. There are issues I think are real winners. Libertarians are for criminal justice reform and against civil asset forfeiture, most of them are pro-choice, they are actually further to the left on immigration than democrats (see Bryan Caplan who compares immigration laws to Jim Crow laws http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2012/03/tell_me_the_dif_1.html and http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2017/03/is_immigration.html), they are mostly cosmopolitan as opposed to nationalistic, they are for small government, they are for deregulation. There's something for left and right in there but the party has been hijacked by crazies who argue about whether individuals can own nuclear weapons or whether requiring driver's licenses constitutes government overreach rather than the political philosophers who do good work.
Too bad shit like their presidential candidate getting boo'd over saying he'd vote for the civil rights act kills any chance of me ever even considering their party.
Why are people talking about Zuckerberg vs Trump like that's some possibility? Literally nobody likes this dude. He has no base.
He's very rich and that can help him, assuming he runs.
I won't vote for him in the primary (if he runs). But I definitely will vote for him over Trump in the general election, if it comes to that.
Zuckerberg isn't perfect (or maybe even good). But he is definitely better than Trump. If he runs as a Democrat and wins the primary, every single left leaning person that doesn't vote for him in the general deserves another four years of Trump.
Is this a fucking joke?
If Zuckerberg is your best choice you might as well throw yourself into the sea.
freeofgreed
Member
He's very rich and that can help him, assuming he runs.
I won't vote for him in the primary (if he runs). But I definitely will vote for him over Trump in the general election, if it comes to that.
Him being rich won't help. Keep in mind he's running as a Dem not as a republican. Being a rich celeb can work for the GOP but that shit wouldn't fly at all with left leaning voters. Especially with how shit his handling of FB has been. He'd get absolutely destroyed in a primary.
Irrelevant when trump had billions in free 24/7 coverage from CNN and MSNBC
Yeah, and we all know the news will cover every step he takes all over again in the next election.