• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Cross The Line - Sexual Assault... ok, maybe just Sexual Harassment!

Glix

Member
The inkblot write up does nothing for me. It's very "it's not all that bad" and fails to address the situation directly so to speak.

Sp00ky has got the best write up by far and I hope someone gets this in the hands of the media. Thanks for your persistent hard work and dedication Sp00ky. I agree, you truly are one of the community's leaders.

Sp00ky for 2012.

I disagree (about inkblot not addressing the situation. I do agree that Spooky wrote it up a lot better). This quote addresses the situation pretty directly, and well, if I may add.

I do believe that the scene can be an unwelcoming environment for women. Some of this is due to the game’s natural, high-strung competitive vibe, but a lot of it is just crass behavior that you would not get away with outside of our male-dominated boy’s club. This is way too big of a topic for this article, but it’s something that I think we need to face and address. It’s not about coddling women or sanitizing the scene. It’s about instilling a common sense decency and calling out the blatantly bad behavior that today often gets a pass.
 
Some things are unacceptable. Those things normally involve the player being viewed as a threat to others, (via physicality or theft) or to the integrity of the scene (in terms of match-fixing, bribes, etc.) But banning people because of a value judgment on how "acceptable" they are? That's not a line we want to be crossing. Should a homophobic TO be allowed to ban gay players because they might "corrupt" the other ones? It's not a line you want to cross.

Holy fuck.

Banning a misogynist sexual harasser = banning gay people. Because really, all value judgments are equally subjective. I assume you feel the same way about GAF's policies of banning overt racism and homophobia?

The serious answer to your question is that OF FUCKING COURSE WE WANTS TO CROSS THAT LINE BECAUSE SEXUAL HARASSMENT IS BAD, MMKAY?

Any serious organization needs to decide what values it wants to promote and what things it does not want to be associated with. This is why pro-sports leagues have "sportsmanship" policies and companies have "value statements." The mere act of having these is not an oppressive threat to your or anyone's free association. Especially not if an organization decides "Sexual harassment and making women uncomfortable is not something we will tolerate."

I mean jesus fucking christ. Can't criticize misogyny because that's a "value judgment" and is anyone qualified to make those? Facepalm.
 
That's really not the best way to argue your point in the first place, man.

what, by being insulting? i think you're under the impression that i'm concerned with efficacy. i've been on the internet long enough to know that i'm not going to change people's stupid opinions, especially people who use fifteen periods to end a sentence (see: JudgeN).
 
I wonder why that topic got 2 pages and this one got 11+?

And most of those posts were puns too.

Simple:

1. Nobody cared.
2. It happened in South Korea, not the United States.
3. The media was focusing on other things.
4. It's much easier to dig up evidence against Aris in this case, what with it being streamed and archived. Here we had to rely on translated player accounts.
 

Mlatador

Banned
Aris has apologized, admited that he did something wrong. That's fine by me, since outside of this whole incident he appeared to be an actually nice guy with lot of entertainment talent.

A big part why Cross Assault was enjoyable to me, was because of him.

I gladly give him another chance. If he proves that he has learned from all of this and watches what he's saying a bit more carefully, he'd be a very good example for the FGC AND other people, especially those who want to see him hanging.

He has the chance to change some of his attitude and OTHERS have the chance to prove how mature they are by forgiving him and not just riding on the hate-train.

I hope BOTH sides come together in a positive way.
 

Doomshine

Member
Enough people are willing to say that he is actually a nice guy and that he deserves a second chance. People who actually know him, unlike me or anyone in this thread. This doesn't mean that they think what he did was right, people are going to look at him differently and he obviously has to show that he has learned from this that not everyone can tolerate his personality and extreme sense of humor.
 

ghostmind

Member
Aris has apologized, admited that he did something wrong. That's fine by me, since outside of this whole incident he appeared to be an actually nice guy with lot of entertainment talent.

A big part why Cross Assault was enjoyable to me, was because of him.

I gladly give him another chance. If he proves that he has learned from all of this and watches what he's saying a bit more carefully, he'd be a very good example for the FGC AND other people, especially those who want to see him hanging.

He has the chance to change some of his attitude and OTHERS have the chance to prove how mature they are by forgiving him and not just riding on the hate-train.

I hope BOTH sides come together in a positive way.


That's nice. I hope it ends in a lawsuit.
 
miranda can't not be a female

IDK man, fighting games have taught me that you can NOT be a man, if you want to.

Poison21.jpg
 
Enough people are willing to say that he is actually a nice guy and that he deserves a second chance. People who actually know him, unlike me or anyone in this thread.

my turn for an adolescent equivalence fallacy:

JEFFREY DAHMER'S MOTHER LOVED HIM, I'M PRETTY SURE HE'S THE RIGHT GUY TO RUN OUR TEEN BOYS ORPHANAGE
 

Chavelo

Member
what, by being insulting? i think you're under the impression that i'm concerned with efficacy. i've been on the internet long enough to know that i'm not going to change people's stupid opinions, especially people who use fifteen periods to end a sentence (see: JudgeN).

So what is your point, then? What are you trying to prove here? Because every time you try to bring forward your opinion, you just go ahead and screw it up with your name calling.

Or wait... Since you been on the internet long enough...

Are you some type of expert on the subject of arguing through the internet? And we just don't know? Would you say that he shot himself in the foot? Should he be ashamed and try to bring honor to his family?
 

kirblar

Member
Holy fuck.

Banning a misogynist sexual harasser = banning gay people. Because really, all value judgments are equally subjective. I assume you feel the same way about GAF's policies of banning overt racism and homophobia?

The serious answer to your question is that OF FUCKING COURSE WE WANTS TO CROSS THAT LINE BECAUSE SEXUAL HARASSMENT IS BAD, MMKAY?

Any serious organization needs to decide what values it wants to promote and what things it does not want to be associated with. This is why pro-sports leagues have "sportsmanship" policies and companies have "value statements." The mere act of having these is not an oppressive threat to your or anyone's free association. Especially not if an organization decides "Sexual harassment and making women uncomfortable is not something we will tolerate."

I mean jesus fucking christ. Can't criticize misogyny because that's a "value judgment" and is anyone qualified to make those? Facepalm.
What organization? I suspect you have a very, very misguided view of the FGC's structure. There is no single organization- merely a loose network of tiny ones.

These are gaming/sports events. Letting someone compete is not the same thing as condoning their behavior.
 

trw

Member

Oh come on. Where do you see people trying to defend the coach or even remotely trying to say that it was in starcraft culture?

And they didn't just pretend it never happened. Korea started a corporate player organisation to make sure this among other things never happens again and had long talks about how this sort of thing could be prevented.

Yeah sure the gaf responses are insensitive but noone tried to excuse it. Please try to at least think before you post.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Aris seems like a very nice guy. He just had difficulty finding the line between joking and reality, and difficulty distinguishing the intentions in what you say versus the effects of what you say.

To be honest, even when it happened, people saying BAN HIM FOR LIFE or stuff of the sort in the mega thread made me uneasy. The punishment does not suit the conviction for someone who otherwise is a very involved member of the community in a positive way.

Also, the Tumblr article by the female FGC member is a fantastic read. Someone should forward that too. Great to finally hear a coherent female perspective on it all.
 
So what is your point, then? What are you trying to prove here? Because every time you try to bring forward your opinion, you just go ahead and screw it up with your name calling.

if you choose to ignore the inherent logic of a point because it comes with some mean words attached at the end, then more power to you. in the words of barney frank, send me the posters i've offended and i'll speak uncharacteristically kindly to them.
 

Threi

notag
I wish you guys were all here for Dark Prince or the early MvC2 days. Just ridiculous lol.

hell; I wished there was an extensive GAF thread on when Noel Brown punched out SmoothViper.

"In introspective on violence in the Fighting Game Community, read after the jump"


Brown didn't get banned from the community, him and SmoothViper made up, He's still kind of a dick but very much toned down and acceptable
 

erpg

GAF parliamentarian
I disagree (about inkblot not addressing the situation. I do agree that Spooky wrote it up a lot better). This quote addresses the situation pretty directly, and well, if I may add.
We've gone over why it's a poor message.

As for the rest of the thread - wow. Really gone off the deep end these last few hours?
 

The article seems to be admitting that there's a sexism issue in the FGC, but no one wants to own up to it.

The second thing I love about fighting game players is how genuinely accepting the scene is. The scene is the most diverse on the planet, with players from all races, sexual orientations, and walks of life. Tournaments are social, in-person events where it’s easy to meet new people and make new friends over the game. My biggest disappointment this weekend is that when Aris said that rowdy behavior and sexual harassment was “one in the same thing” with the fighting game scene, no one called him on it (especially Jared, who knows better).

Yes, the scene is rowdy and uses colorful language. A lot. But that’s just the hard candy shell. It does not define us. Ask any long-time player about their favorite memories and almost no one will tell you about the time a caster yelled some obscenity, or the time someone popped off in another guys’ face. People will tell you about their first event, or maybe a particularly memorable grand finals, or the fun times hanging out with friends after the event, or the fantastic trip to a new place where they met new people and became friends. That is what defines us.

But there is a grain of truth to what Aris is saying, because frankly a lot of players use the scene as a cocoon where they can shed the usual social decencies and behave badly. I do believe that the scene can be an unwelcoming environment for women. Some of this is due to the game’s natural, high-strung competitive vibe, but a lot of it is just crass behavior that you would not get away with outside of our male-dominated boy’s club. This is way too big of a topic for this article, but it’s something that I think we need to face and address. It’s not about coddling women or sanitizing the scene. It’s about instilling a common sense decency and calling out the blatantly bad behavior that today often gets a pass.

The issue is, the sexism sort of does define the community. It may not be fair, but the complete picture totals both the good elements along with the bad. But yeah, the same criticisms could be levelled against just about any niche fandom, I guess.
 
He has every right to be at Final Round, obviously, but I don't think that Aris being on the mic or on the stage (for anything but matches) is good for anyone.

The possibility for a shitshorm would be massive because I'd bet you people will be watching to see how the community reacts to him after what happened.
 

Judderman

drawer by drawer
hell; I wished there was an extensive GAF thread on when Noel Brown punched out SmoothViper.

"In introspective on violence in the Fighting Game Community, read after the jump"

"The savage group known as the FGC deface a Samba de Amigo machine, read of their exploits after the jump."
 

notworksafe

Member
He has every right to be at Final Round, obviously, but I don't think that Aris being on the mic or on the stage (for anything but matches) is good for anyone.

The possibility for a shitshorm would be massive because I'd bet you people will be watching to see how the community reacts to him after what happened.

What people will be watching?
 
The article seems to be admitting that there's a sexism issue in the FGC, but no one wants to own up to it.



The issue is, the sexism sort of does define the community. It may not be fair, but the complete picture totals both the good elements along with the bad. But yeah, the same criticisms could be levelled against just about any niche fandom, I guess.

I agree and hopefully this event is what changes it.

Also this thread is getting pretty ugly now and it seems much of the constructive conversation is ending so I'm out before it becomes another graveyard.
 

RooMHM

Member
I don't get it. What are we looking for in the youtube vid? The fact that he's obssessively mentioning her body and annoying her?
 

V_Arnold

Member
I see a lot of discussion in here. I don't really have in interest in talking about this issue publicly because although this happened at Cross Assault, this is more of an issue of people and less of an issue about the show. this just happened to happen at cross assault, but it happens all the time, all over the world.

Aris and Miranda are both very kind, very real people. They were placed into a super high tension situation, and both cracked under pressure.

The main point and issue here is that comments made by Aris added to her tension and pressure. Since those early comments, he apologized to her directly many times, and genuinely seemed concerned for what he had done. His own stress accumulated over the course of the show, and looming over his head the entire time was this issue as well, which im sure added to it. Even he did not realize the scope at which he would be vilified for his comments until we discussed them being talked about on major sites.

Before I continue I would like to point out that yes, there are a lot of OG players with an OG mentality. You could call that an 'old guard' but that isn't really the truth. these guys just enjoy Fighting Games and want to continue enjoying them, and all aspects of why they enjoy them, including the gritty, competitive atmosphere they remember facing in the early days when they first began playing competitively.

What Aris did was wrong. He has sincerely apologized both to Miranda and publicly on Twitter. This is a harsh life lesson for him, someone who enjoys his own uncensored nature, to realize just how bad his words and his egging someone on can hurt another person. In a sense this is about "growing up". and Yes, the scene is growing up, as much as people do not believe it. But it will take a long time for the scene to really come together and understand what growing up is all about. Lessons like this are ones that will need to be learned, so people can see their mistakes and recover from them.

Last year around this time, I made some very controversial statements about evo and level up, which I am sure a lot of you guys remember. though at the time that was how I felt, afterwards i really realized the damage my statements had caused, and I apologized sincerely. It seems to me my apology was accepted, as I was allowed to be a part of the team for evo that year.

All I am saying here is yes Miranda was hurt by what Aris said, but we need to give Aris a chance to recover from this lesson. this is not about removing the R-Rated nature of the FGC, because that to me appears to be unnecessary and is not in my current plan for any of my big events. However it is about also knowing how much damage your words can do to both a person's mind and heart, and also to the scene.

I hope that we can stick together, and all learn this lesson together. Sexual Harassment is a bad thing, and much like things like stealing, & murder, is just in some people's human nature and can never be completely stopped. However if we can make it so people understand both sides I think that will help. Everyone has their own opinions about life and the world, and I do not want to censor their opinion, rather I would like to inform them of the pain a harsher type of thing like harassment/bullying can do to another person, so that perhaps they can understand and change.

I guess this was wordy and not every expressive in the end. Even I have made sexist remarks at times, but over time I've learned to be more sensitive to women, and hopefully others will too. and if they dont choose to, that is their prerogative, but at the least keeping those views private to their own following and not the general public can help.

Man, you managed to put this into the perfect post.
I wanted to say some of this, but after this, there is no need.

FGC needs to get some things out of its system. It is okay to be crazy, but when one realizes that it might actually disturb/hurt others, it is also okay to just be a little less crazy and keep on playing, simple as that.
 
Juuuust around the time Neato got here. Hmmm

I don't mean to suppose correlation = causation, but...just something to think about with the general shift in tone this conversation has taken.

at this point i'd like to point out that an ad hominem looks like this:

"your argument is wrong, because you are stupid"

and not like this:

"here is why your argument is wrong. incidentally, you are stupid."
 

Chavelo

Member
if you choose to ignore the inherent logic of a point because it comes with some mean words attached at the end, then more power to you. in the words of barney frank, send me the posters i've offended and i'll speak uncharacteristically kindly to them.

So, then... We all should agree to ignore your posts from now on because you're too jaded and insensitive to argue correctly, right?

Cool. That's done.

On Topic: James Chen asking on twitter for the FGC to give Aris a chance. Hmmm....
 

notworksafe

Member
I'd bet the people who covered the story would be interested to know how the community reacts to him given what's transpired in the last week.

And I'm imagining that some people who were offended by what transpired might be curious as well.

Then what? They'll get mad at Aris being on mic and then go back to not paying attention to fighting games?

Do you think Aris not being allowed on mic would make them instant FG stream fans? Unlikely.

So it won't matter if Aris is on mic or not. At least not where those people are concerned.
 
Aris seems like a very nice guy. He just had difficulty finding the line between joking and reality, and difficulty distinguishing the intentions in what you say versus the effects of what you say.

To be honest, even when it happened, people saying BAN HIM FOR LIFE or stuff of the sort in the mega thread made me uneasy. The punishment does not suit the conviction for someone who otherwise is a very involved member of the community in a positive way.

Also, the Tumblr article by the female FGC member is a fantastic read. Someone should forward that too. Great to finally hear a coherent female perspective on it all.

Got a link? D:
 
James Chen is defending him (as a person, not his actions) right now and this popped up:

https://twitter.com/#!/jacarandas/status/174990611156451328

that's cool. i don't think anyone has really argued that aris is like an unsalveagable bit of human detritus. but in order to send the community as a whole a message, measures need to be taken to prove that the things he said were out of order. simple shit, like, say, not allowing him back on a mic a few days after the incident.
 

kirblar

Member
that's cool. i don't think anyone has really argued that aris is like an unsalveagable bit of human detritus. but in order to send the community as a whole a message, measures need to be taken to prove that the things he said were out of order. simple shit, like, say, not allowing him back on a mic a few days after the incident.
There is no way that Aris would be given a live mic for commentary right now. Not so much as a punishment, but because no one's going to want to risk him blowing up again.
 
There is no way that Aris would be given a live mic for commentary right now. Not so much as a punishment, but because no one's going to want to risk him blowing up again.

the fact that he's going to be on-mic soon is what caused the whole last two pages of ruckus in the first place.
 
That TOs should ban players who say dumb things in order to make you feel better?

If you really want to reduce the prevalence of making women feel uncomfortable and unsafe with overt sexual harassment and misogyny to "saying dumb things" and deflect the situation to my feelings (hint: my feelings are not the ones to worry about), that's your call.
 
Top Bottom