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Phades · Oct 4, 2013

GumDumpster said:
Also, I imagine she would be a transgender in a sea of cosplayers. I can see the confusion.

The sheer amount of women in male character and the occasional man in female character can be surprising at any popular convention with cosplay. The odd dichotomy ends up occuring where if you notice the costume, but fail to address them and demand a picture, you can get labeled as a creeper loudly. If you fail to notice when someone does bring out a camera for pictures get labeled as a photobomber or douche. If you fail to recognize the paid models from the fans, you will be in for a bad time as well and so on. Trying to pile on with trying to guess actual gender seems fantasy realm times (although the announcer hosting the event is another relatively non-issue entirely).

I'm hoping this sort of thing isn't becoming the norm at all conventions and just the odd coincidenses that I've experienced at the last few I went to. Although I did have someone dressed up like a ninja stalk me through half the convention hall for the better part of 30 minutes as well before (stab?) poking me in the back and then running off the last time i went to one...

mollipen · Oct 4, 2013

witchedwiz said:
So he/she, whatever sex feels him/her comfortable to be rererred as, lied, got the comedian deep in the internet-mud and scapegoated with a simple apology?
If that's the case it's beyond shitty...

Just to note, this is at best annoying and at worse offensive. Laura identifies as female, and even if you disagree with everything she did and any opinions that she has, you can make those arguments and express your disagreement with her while also at least showing her respect in that one manner. (Because when people do things like "he/she", you aren't just saying something potentially offensive to that one person, but anyone who is trans.)

Gestault · Oct 4, 2013

Miles Quaritch said:
Good that she apologised, but why make the claims in the first place when she knew it was inaccurate and outright lies?

It's even more baffling considering this happened in front of a large audience, so she had to have known the truth would eventually come out...

She was upset, and upset about something connected to a deeply personal set of experiences, constantly expecting mistreatment and disrespect about her identity. That would make anyone want to lash out, especially when they feel like they've been wronged. That won't put anyone in the most reasonable state of mind. Her behavior, especially having had some time to get distance from the situation was bad, but why she felt compelled to do it makes perfect sense. That part of it isn't something I would hold against anyone. And thankfully, she's been able and willing to clear up the situation she put herself and the comedian in. That's hard to do, especially when you know you've overstepped but feel like you were justified originally. This is a good outcome.

Shanlei91 · Oct 4, 2013

witchedwiz said:
Fat good it did, the comedian got screwed high time over this...
He should sue the journo and then settle in court with a public apology from the culprit.

For realsies.

Poor guy probably thought before hand "if I do great, I'll have a gig with microsoft doing these shows, opening up doors for my career!"

Then this happened. I'm sure Microsoft won't recommend him / use him again. Even if he is in the right, he'll have negative connotations attached to his name.

polyh3dron · Oct 4, 2013

Trojita said:
Never trust a brony.

Female Bronys are still called Bronys right?

I believe it's some portmanteau that uses the word equestrian IIRC

edit: oh wait no, it's Pegasis I think.

Miles Quaritch · Oct 4, 2013

Gestault said:
She was upset, and upset about something connected to a deeply personal set of experiences, constantly expecting mistreatment and disrespect about her identity. That would make anyone want to lash out, especially when they feel like they've been wronged. That won't put anyone in the most reasonable state of mind. Her behavior, especially having had some time to get distance from the situation was bad, but why she felt compelled to do it makes perfect sense. That part of it isn't something I would hold against anyone. And thankfully, she's been able and willing to clear up the situation she put herself and the comedian in. That's hard to do, especially when you know you've overstepped but feel like you were justified originally. This is a good outcome.

Yeah, I can absolutely understand being in a certain mindset after having to suffer through constant mistreatment, insults, etc, but even with that in mind, it still worries me that she was willing to lie and nearly ruin an innocent person's career. As you said though, it's a good outcome but it's possible the comedian's career will forever be tainted by this incident and while he did make the mistake of saying 'this person', I don't feel that warrants him potentially losing work over what happened.

In any case, it's very good news that they were both able to come to terms and accept each others apologies. Let's hope it doesn't have any lasting impact on either of their careers.

Xun · Oct 4, 2013

LCGeek said:
This post is mostly likely to get me in trouble but considering that I've transitoned some and continue to go down the path I feel I should.

People would do a lot better than to judge women's appearance on a classical version of femininity that really only applies to a small crowd of all the women that exist out of the total population. Not making fun or being insulting but considering comments I see made towards ugly women or certain atheletes who are black or women who aren't mainstream white or leaning towards it's demeaning and disrespectful. To be clear on this point I take offense that just because some women is attractive in the sense models or celebs are and who have so many resources at their disposal both digital and real they aren't women at all and look more manly. Considering how intertwined our gender and sexual characteristics str it's amazing how we get binary about things when everyone is blend of both.

My problem with the situation is the sentiments of the comedian and the almost casual or obtuse sense of just seeing people as what you want and not even bothering to know them before saying something that is alleged. I feel the journalist made a mess of things more but the base points i totally agree having been the recipient of this shit all the time.

I'm not sure you took from my post what I was actually saying. This is nothing about sexualised versions of women, but rather Laura to me looked like a guy with a wig wearing shorts. Considering the environment, could she not have been a male cosplaying as some obscure character? We all make assumptions on people, and like many others I wasn't sure if she was a guy or a girl at first. Saying "this person" should be regarded as completely acceptable in such a situation.

Jarsonot · Oct 4, 2013

There's a person who works in a store near where I live. I honestly can't tell the gender of the person, and have no idea what gender the person identifies himself/herself as.

I could possibly ask this person, but for my question, let's say I saw the person from a distance, or on TV, (i.e. let's say I CAN'T ask) and the person did something really awesome.

With me so far? Ok. Now I want to tell my friend about this awesome thing I saw this person do.

How do I describe the situation without referring to the person as either him/her or "this person."

Honest question, really. I was thinking about this and I realize that I honestly don't know how to describe the person in question without giving someone offense.

Gestault · Oct 4, 2013

Jarsonot said:
There's a person who works in a store near where I live. I honestly can't tell the gender of the person, and have no idea what gender the person identifies himself/herself as.

I could possibly ask this person, but for my question, let's say I saw the person from a distance, or on TV, (i.e. let's say I CAN'T ask) and the person did something really awesome.

With me so far? Ok. Now I want to tell my friend about this awesome thing I saw this person do.

How do I describe the situation without referring to the person as either him/her or "this person."

Honest question, really. I was thinking about this and I realize that I honestly don't know how to describe the person in question without giving someone offense.

Given that exact situation, I'd say "this super androgynous person did something awesome," and I'm pretty much serious. Also, you're probably coming into this thread late. The originaly accusation was that the woman was called "it" and "thing" repeatedly (which wasn't the case). The title was edited to the actual phrase used. "This person" isn't offensive as far as most people are concerned.

Jarsonot · Oct 4, 2013

Gestault said:
Given that exact situation, I'd say "this super androgynous person did something awesome," and I'm pretty much serious.

Do you think that wouldn't offend someone? Maybe it wouldn't. But I sure as hell wouldn't know that, and I think there's quite a lot of other people who wouldn't know how to describe the person either.

It may be that people don't want to or mean to give offense, but that they have to do the best they can with the vocabulary they have.

I just think there may be offense taken when there's none given. Transgendered are often abused and may be on alert for abuse, which may lead them to think they're being insulted when maybe a person just doesn't know any better.

Gestault · Oct 5, 2013

Jarsonot said:
Do you think that wouldn't offend someone? Maybe it wouldn't. But I sure as hell wouldn't know that, and I think there's quite a lot of other people who wouldn't know how to describe the person either.

It may be that people don't want to or mean to give offense, but that they have to do the best they can with the vocabulary they have.

I just think there may be offense taken when there's none given. Transgendered are often abused and may be on alert for abuse, which may lead them to think they're being insulted when maybe a person just doesn't know any better.

Why are you asking how you should communicate in these situations if you assume they'll be offended anyway? You made a point to create a scenario where there would be know way to know the wishes of the individual you're talking about. As I had answered earlier:

Look for deliberate efforts to associate with a gender. If an androgynous or confusingly gendered person is wearing women's clothes or makeup in the style of women (lipstick, eyeliner, etc), then default to the corresponding gender for the symbols of that effort.

It's the nature of this subject to confuse the terminology. It should almost be expected. You have individuals who, themselves, don't necessarily understand where they want to fall in the spectrum of gender identity. Assuming you're interacting directly, speak respectfully and take their wishes into account, and most importantly be honest about why you react the way they do. If there's an unobtrusive opportunity for a social prompt to politely ask "do you have a preferred way I might address you?" take it, but be cordial and maintain eye contact as you should in any setting where you're being introduced to someone. If sincerity and deliberate language on your part isn't enough to prevent insult, then that person isn't trying to make a connection. That's on them.

Jarsonot · Oct 5, 2013

Gestault said:
Why are you asking how you should communicate in these situations if you assume they'll be offended anyway? You made a point to create a scenario where there would be know way to know the wishes of the individual you're talking about. As I had answered earlier:

It's the nature of this subject to confuse the terminology. It should almost be expected. You have individuals who, themselves, don't necessarily understand where they want to fall in the spectrum of gender identity. Assuming you're interacting directly, speak respectfully and take their wishes into account, and most importantly be honest about why you react the way they do. If there's an unobtrusive opportunity for a social prompt to politely ask "do you have a preferred way I might address you?" take it, but be cordial and maintain eye contact as you should in any setting where you're being introduced to someone. If sincerity and deliberate language on your part isn't enough to prevent insult, then that person isn't trying to make a connection. That's on them.

My point is that there's many people who don't know the right words. That maybe we as a society haven't even settled on the right words. You can't ask everyone. So there needs to be a norm established for when you don't know.

The fact that someone may be offended regardless of our terminology IS my point: I don't think we've established a "proper" terminology yet. Not one that our society all agrees upon. But maybe getting situations like this will let more people know that it's even an issue. I dunno.

Edit: I'm sorry, I'm checking this on my phone while doing other things and apparently somehow missed part of your first reply to me. If "this person" isn't offensive then maybe we DO have a term that works. At any rate, I'll respectfully now out now - I'm usually more of a lurker anyway. =)

Gestault · Oct 5, 2013

Jarsonot said:
My point is that there's many people who don't know the right words. That maybe we as a society haven't even settled on the right words. You can't ask everyone. So there needs to be a norm established for when you don't know.

Thankfully language is never settled, but to answer your concern directly, the word androgynous exists for that exact purpose. In the same way I might say someone looks "short" or "tall," that word exists to communicate the exact idea we're talking about here. It has no more a negative or positive connotation than saying something is "spherical," particularly when used for a situation where the correlation of sex-to-gender is in flux. "They" or "that person" referring indirectly fulfills that same function. In direct communication, either observing the signals given by the subject or asking directly is appropriate. We're talking about a statistically small group of people. That doesn't diminish the energy that should be put into regarding them respectfully, but when that group is defined by indistinct differentiation of gender and sex, it's misguided to think that an honest mistake in labeling should be offensive.

This is getting into potential straw-man territory, but if a meaningful number of people won't accept well-intentioned use of common language to communicate, they'll be excluding themselves on that point. I don't say that with malice, it's simply a function of that decision. You can't have language that makes a distinction between genders which also doesn't make the distinction between genders. Helping people understand that gender and sex don't necessarily correspond is a good thing, but there are social and linguistic reasons for the distinction between genders. The fact that romance languages conjugate verbs differently based on the "gender" of the subject should highlight how important, socially at least, that dynamic is.

turk128 · Oct 5, 2013

Shinta said:
He apologized twice actually, despite not actually doing anything wrong.

Seriously, the joint statement just emphasize how much more mature the comedian was with this situation. A litigious person could easily sue for slander in London.

Indrid Cold1 · Oct 5, 2013

I feel terrible for Fraser Milward here. Even tho he's done absolutely nothing wrong his career will suffer for this as this incident will definitely stigmatize him. How about a show of support from MS for the poor guy to go some way to repairing the damage the other party in this incident has done to his future prospects.

FartOfWar · Oct 5, 2013

Brutal object lesson for those who would reduce all human interaction to an exercise in comparative privilege.

TheRedSnifit · Oct 5, 2013

baphomet 666 said:
Femares would be my guess.

Pegasisters.

TheRedSnifit · Oct 5, 2013

squall23 · Oct 5, 2013

turk128 said:
Seriously, the joint statement just emphasize how much more mature the comedian was with this situation. A litigious person could easily sue for slander in London.

I don't see how suing or not suing for slander in this situation makes the comedian any more or less mature. He completely has that right and now that everything has come out to light, I don't think anybody would blame him for it.

MesserWolf · Oct 5, 2013

For anything, anything, you say you will find somewhere in the world somebody who take offence in it.

The best you can do is to show no intention to offend on purpose and be polite. stop.
Just use common sense, and ignore the rest, all the dumb complains, over-reactions, crybabies and so on.

Metalmurphy · Oct 5, 2013

MesserWolf said:
For anything, anything, you say you will find somewhere in the world somebody who take offence in it.

The best you can do is to show no intention to offend on purpose and be polite. stop.
Just use common sense, and ignore the rest, all the dumb complains, over-reactions, crybabies and so on.

Trust me, that doesn't work.

GrotesqueBeauty · Oct 5, 2013

MesserWolf said:
For anything, anything, you say you will find somewhere in the world somebody who take offence in it.

I take offense to that idea.

Log4Girlz · Oct 5, 2013

GrotesqueBeauty said:
I take offense to that idea.

I am offended at your taking of offense.

Canis lupus · Oct 5, 2013

So the problem here is that she lied and got someone's career in trouble? Thats really shitty, slandering is not cool, especially on twitter.

dragonelite · Oct 5, 2013

Indrid Cold1 said:
I feel terrible for Fraser Milward here. Even tho he's done absolutely nothing wrong his career will suffer for this as this incident will definitely stigmatize him. How about a show of support from MS for the poor guy to go some way to repairing the damage the other party in this incident has done to his future prospects.

Throw Microsoft army of lawyers against her?

JasonUresti · Oct 6, 2013

FartOfWar said:
Brutal object lesson for those who would reduce all human interaction to an exercise in comparative privilege.

Indeed. There is a scary amount of people amongst the young, liberal internet gaming crowd that use that lens, forgetting that behind their statistics and oh so righteous fury that they throw at these situations, there is a living, breathing human being on both sides.

Someone doesn't need to be a woman, minority, gay, lesbian, or transgendered to be singled out, ganged up on, bullied and made to feel less than human.

Newt · Oct 18, 2013

She should be apologizing to him. She definitely showed deceit and malice towards him.

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