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TheRedSnifit
Banned
(09-21-2017, 04:57 PM)

Originally Posted by HStallion

I think this is a ridiculous statement considering the absolute plethora of RPG's of all kinds we've been getting from old school CRPG's to JRPG's like Nier Automata to stuff like Darkest Dungeon or the Dishonored games. I mean the amount of RPG's out there is huge from the traditional stuff to the more experimental and not so easily defined.

The fact that you had to name Dishonored as an RPG to pad out your list speaks volumes about the current state of the genre.

And what are all these modern CRPGs? Obsidian and Larian give us something once in a blue moon, and that's about it? Fallout 4? Lol. There's nothing wrong with liking these games, but don't pretend there's a ton of variety when 99% of modern ones are action or stealth games with stat systems bolted on.
Last edited by TheRedSnifit; 09-21-2017 at 05:00 PM.
Animagne
Junior Member
(09-21-2017, 04:58 PM)
I don't really like Jim's videos. But I got a laugh from this.
sprinkles
Member
(09-21-2017, 05:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by TheRedSnifit

And what are all these modern CRPGs? Obsidian and Larian give us something once in a blue moon, and that's about it? Fallout 4? Lol. There's nothing wrong with liking these games, but don't pretend there's a ton of variety when 99% of modern ones are action or stealth games with stat systems bolted on.

There are so many long, modern CRPG's released in just the last 2-3 years that just completing those I bought would take months of my gaming time.
HStallion
Now what's the next step in your master plan?
(09-21-2017, 05:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by TheRedSnifit

The fact that you had to name Dishonored as an RPG to pad out your list speaks volumes about the current state of the genre.

And what are all these modern CRPGs? Obsidian and Larian give us something once in a blue moon, and that's about it? Fallout 4? Lol. There's nothing wrong with liking these games, but don't pretend there's a ton of variety when 99% of modern ones are action or stealth games with stat systems bolted on.

So I mentioned Dishonored and that somehow disproves my point? Maybe you should spend more time playing all the RPG games available instead of acting like they done exist on GAF.
Beartruck
Member
(09-21-2017, 05:53 PM)
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I've grown bored of Jim's regular shtick (I'm tired of the angry game guy concept in general), but this gave me a few hearty chuckles. What does or doesn't make you "h4rdc0re" is so arbitrary anyways. I've played maybe 1 crpg ever, but I'm currently hyped because my copy of Valkyrie no densetsu for the PC engine is arriving in the mail today. Am I not hardcore?
cartman414
Member
(09-21-2017, 06:00 PM)

Originally Posted by Morrigan Stark

Diablo is nothing but min-maxing build and gear for optimal DPS. So much number crunching and it's not an RPG? I don't get it. If anything, Diablo is too much of an RPG, and not enough of an action game. :P

RPGs are also the combat mechanics and character interactions. Diablo has been very reductionist in that regard. Plus I don't think that it or other clickfests aren't action-y enough to compensate. :P
Some Nobody
Junior Member
(09-21-2017, 06:01 PM)
Given how GAF constantly seems to try and push for diversity, its strange to find myself in a thread where people seem to be actively encouraging gatekeeping as a practice. Oh well.
Altairre
Member
(09-21-2017, 06:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by TheRedSnifit

The fact that you had to name Dishonored as an RPG to pad out your list speaks volumes about the current state of the genre.

And what are all these modern CRPGs? Obsidian and Larian give us something once in a blue moon, and that's about it? Fallout 4? Lol. There's nothing wrong with liking these games, but don't pretend there's a ton of variety when 99% of modern ones are action or stealth games with stat systems bolted on.

The three Shadowrun games, the two new Divinity games, Pillars (with the second one not too far off), Tyranny, Wasteland 2 and Torment. That's not a bad list as far as I'm concerned.
StrategyFan
Member
(09-21-2017, 06:02 PM)
most "rpgs" dont have roleplaying

most console game(r)s seem to give the rpg label to anything that adds stats / party customization

don't know if it's because of d&d or something, but that's not how gameplay genres work

the genre confusion makes it harder to find games you're looking for, no matter which "side" you're on
Drek
Member
(09-21-2017, 06:07 PM)

Originally Posted by IvorB

I dunno, I found some of battles in the early parts of the game quite tricky but then I just explored the whole map so I encountered some stuff that was much higher than me. Or maybe I just suck. To be honest, the hardest part of that game was the obscure quests you need to complete to finish and the constant traps and puzzles.

Perhaps you should play on tactician?

Maybe, but I don't need the game to be super challenging, I'm enjoying it all the same and not having to re-start a bunch is letting me move through at a good pace so I can get on to the sequel that much faster.

Having a character with burning eyes and the +2 perception on traps skill was another fortuitous pairing.

That said I'm also likely not a reasonable baseline for difficulty in strategy games as strategy games and strategy heavy RPGs have been my favorite genre for most of my life. I just found Divinity to be really approachable relative to most of the subgenre and I'd be disappointed if the word of mouth on it turned some people away before even trying it.
Altairre
Member
(09-21-2017, 06:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by StrategyFan

most "rpgs" dont have roleplaying

most console game(r)s seem to give the rpg label to anything that adds stats / party customization

don't know if it's because of d&d or something, but that's not how gameplay genres work

the genre confusion makes it harder to find games you're looking for, no matter which "side" you're on

It really doesn't though. With the amount of footage and information available before games come out these days it really isn't that hard to judge whether a game might be for you or not, no matter what label is attached to it.
JustSomeone
Member
(09-21-2017, 06:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by Morrigan Stark


I'm not even close to an RPG elitist (if you check my list in the Essentials RPG poll thread, there's only 1 western RPG in my top 10)

Being a JRPG fan and being an RPG elitist are not mutually exclusive,though.
In fact some of the worst cases of elitism I've witnessed are from Dark souls fans
HStallion
Now what's the next step in your master plan?
(09-21-2017, 06:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by Altairre

The three Shadowrun games, the two new Divinity games, Pillars (with the second one not too far off), Tyranny, Wasteland 2 and Torment. That's not a bad list as far as I'm concerned.

Those are just some of the most well known. There is stuff like the Age of Decadence which is both unique and well made but often flies under a lot of people's radar.
Arulan
Member
(09-21-2017, 06:30 PM)

Originally Posted by TheRedSnifit

The fact that you had to name Dishonored as an RPG to pad out your list speaks volumes about the current state of the genre.

And what are all these modern CRPGs? Obsidian and Larian give us something once in a blue moon, and that's about it? Fallout 4? Lol. There's nothing wrong with liking these games, but don't pretend there's a ton of variety when 99% of modern ones are action or stealth games with stat systems bolted on.

Divinity: Original Sin
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Pillars of Eternity
The Age of Decadence
Underrail
Wasteland 2
Torment: Tides of Numenera
The Legend of Grimrock
The Legend of Grimrock 2
Shadowrun Returns
Shadowrun: Dragonfall
Shadowrun: Hong Kong
Battle Brothers
Might & Magic X - Legacy
Tyranny
StarCrawlers
Dungeon Rats
Grimoire : Heralds of the Winged Exemplar
Serpent in the Staglands
Lords of Xulima

I think that's a pretty good list of some of the more noteworthy CRPGs in this recent renaissance.
Last edited by Arulan; 09-21-2017 at 06:36 PM.
foltzie1
Member
(09-21-2017, 06:38 PM)
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The echo is odd.
Flying Toaster
Member
(09-21-2017, 06:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by Arulan

Divinity: Original Sin
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Pillars of Eternity
The Age of Decadence
Underrail
Wasteland 2
Torment: Tides of Numenera
The Legend of Grimrock
The Legend of Grimrock 2
Shadowrun Returns
Shadowrun: Dragonfall
Shadowrun: Hong Kong
Battle Brothers
Might & Magic X - Legacy
Tyranny
StarCrawlers
Dungeon Rats
Grimoire : Heralds of the Winged Exemplar
Serpent in the Staglands
Lords of Xulima

I think that's a pretty good list of some of the more noteworthy CRPGs in this recent renaissance.


Great list and one I am glad someone posted. The situation for me was PC gaming growing up then consoles. As consoles became more mainstream the games people played changed. The idea that rpg games have to be dumbed down to sell or are dumbed down to reach a greater audience has some ground but at the end of the day when games like the ones on this list are still coming out then I am happy.

The video was great. I dont know how much of the new format I can take but I am looking forward to the next one.
Clockwork5
Member
(09-21-2017, 06:54 PM)
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If I understand correctly, games such as Diablo are just action games that call themselves "Action RPGs" in order to trick "real" RPG players into buying them.
cyress8
Banned
(09-21-2017, 07:15 PM)
After watching it again, people calling themselves hardcore should sit themselves in the corner away from the rest of PC gamer population. I'm nowhere near a "noob" level PC gamer. ( Even have a room dedicated to just for my PC and VR. ) I play every genre under the sun, even the ones they complain about being for casual gamers, and enjoy pretty much everything. ( Except Shadows of Mordor, pisses me off just thinking about that game. )
Altairre
Member
(09-21-2017, 07:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by HStallion

Those are just some of the most well known. There is stuff like the Age of Decadence which is both unique and well made but often flies under a lot of people's radar.

Yeah I was just listing some of the more well known games and even then it's a pretty good list on its own. hanks for posting a more complete one Flying Toaster. It's a great time to play RPGs because there really is something for everyone.
Arulan
Member
(09-21-2017, 07:42 PM)
There is a significant gap between some of the comments in the video.

Stating that both BioWare and Bethesda have declined and are now solely in the business of making RPGs designed for the mainstream is arguably true. I also feel that because of this change, they're making mediocre to poor RPGs. Popularity and quality are not correlated, and it's very clear when a developer makes choices that are intended to increase their potential audience above all else. Hoping that a developer like Larian or Obsidian doesn't get purchased, or shifts their design focus to the mainstream audience is perfectly reasonable given what the ramifications are.

That said, stating that the people who enjoy recent BIoWare and Bethesda RPGs are noobs and shouldn't bother with something like Divinity: Original SIn 2 is ridiculous and absurd. Telling someone they're not hardcore enough is the kind of childish posts you find in a lot of forums.

It's one thing to criticize Fallout 4 for being an arguably poor RPG and Fallout game, but you don't go around criticizing the people who do enjoy it, or telling them they're not hardcore enough for Fallout or Fallout 2.

If anything, I want to encourage more players who have only touched AAA RPGs to explore the genre further. I've seen a lot of posts in the Divinity: Original Sin 2 OT that state they've never played an RPG like this, and are very much enjoying it.
pa22word
Banned
(09-21-2017, 07:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by Morrigan Stark

I haven't watched the video yet (at work), but just to address a general sentiment in the thread about "elitism":

It's OK to disagree with Jim, and that doesn't make it "ironic". Just saying.

I'm not even close to an RPG elitist (if you check my list in the Essentials RPG poll thread, there's only 1 western RPG in my top 10), myself, but if the idea is that you can't be displeased with trends of dumbing down what used to be your favourite genre and that makes you a snotty elitist otherwise, well... pish posh.


Diablo is nothing but min-maxing build and gear for optimal DPS. So much number crunching and it's not an RPG? I don't get it. If anything, Diablo is too much of an RPG, and not enough of an action game. :P


Nothing wrong with being "elitist" then. That's just having standards. If you feel like someone is looking down on you because they have higher standards for their own preferences, you can say that makes them an elitist if you want, but I'd just say it makes you insecure. :P


Oh, personally I don't really know as I've never played the games. I've played a bit of the various clones over the years but never enough of them to form an opinion on them one way or the other. Just always heard from various friends that they don't consider them rpgs at all, but action games in the vein of Gauntlet, which I always thought made sense given the gameplay. I mean yeah they have gear and min maxing, but does that make xcom an rpg? That's a balls hard ass game for the elitist of the elite, and no one looks down on those guys for their lack of skill, yet I've never really heard them call their games RPG. Is Total War because it features tons of gear and statistic min maxing and a huge variety of clases in the form of units? Hearts of iron? Syndicate?

Again look at my last post that goes over player expectation and developer goals. I don't think statistics and systems alone a RPG make, because by that definition almost every game can be called a RPG if you get reductive enough. People go to Diablo to get their hack and slash on, people go to Baulders Gate to get their DND on, people play Hearts of Iron to run a war economy in a total war situation, people play xcom to get an excuse to build a new rig after breaking their pc with a sledgehammer, etc, and those games are designed to facilitate meeting those goals and/or meeting those expectations rather than to rigidly fit some genre tropes we've come up with to help our brains delineate the differences that at the end of the day are almost entirely arbitrary.
I think rather than just seeing systems and statistics and saying "yep, rpg" aI think it's more important to look at those systems and try and figure out what they were implemented for and why. Like the systems in xcom are there to facilitate strategic and tactical depth, not to build a role playing experience.
Last edited by pa22word; 09-21-2017 at 07:55 PM.
Riposte
Member
(09-21-2017, 07:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by StrategyFan

most "rpgs" dont have roleplaying

most console game(r)s seem to give the rpg label to anything that adds stats / party customization

don't know if it's because of d&d or something, but that's not how gameplay genres work

the genre confusion makes it harder to find games you're looking for, no matter which "side" you're on

What are called "RPGs" is a collection of fairly distinct genres; you break up that collection and there isn't much confusion. "Is it a RPG or not" is a distraction when what really should be asked whether this game is actually similar beyond some shared mechanics (if that).

D&D is both tactical war-gaming mixed with "role-playing". The videogame genres are mainly depended on how the former was adapted early on (and mutated). Role-playing, much like "leveling", can be added to any sort of game, so it's kind of besides the point.
valouris
Member
(09-21-2017, 07:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by Damn Silly



Enjoy.

And here's one I made earlier, as a bonus (I made it for myself after watching the video, basically).

Amazing. Looking forward to seeing these get overused :D
Huge Succeeded
Member
(09-21-2017, 08:11 PM)
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GAF loves calling everything under the sun elitist for the dumbest fucking reasons, so this really is perfect for y'all
Last edited by Huge Succeeded; 09-21-2017 at 08:19 PM.
NoblesseOblige
Member
(09-21-2017, 09:19 PM)
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As an RPG purist (The Witcher isn't a good RPG) this video is very likely making fun of me and I love it.

Thank god for him.

Originally Posted by Kthulhu

"Final Fantasy and Diablo aren't RPGs" then what the hell are they?


Final Fantasy depends on the entry as they vary from turn-based to action, but ultimately it is a JRPG. Diablo is an Action-RPG hack-and-slash. Typically neither of these are good examples of RPG as they are extremely weak on Role-playing. They only include the '-RPG' particle to convey elements of the genre but are not pure examples of it.

Hope that makes it more clear.
Last edited by NoblesseOblige; 09-21-2017 at 09:27 PM.
Tworak
Member
(09-21-2017, 09:28 PM)
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so much truth delivered by such a majestic creature
Szadek
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(09-21-2017, 09:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by NoblesseOblige

Final Fantasy depends on the entry as they vary from turn-based to action, but ultimately it is a JRPG. Diablo is an Action-RPG hack-and-slash. Typically neither of these are good examples of RPG as they are extremely weak on Role-playing. They only include the '-RPG' particle to convey elements of the genre but are not pure examples of it.

Hope that makes it more clear.

For lack of a better term, I like to call them modern dungeon crawler (as opposed to old school dungeon crawler like Dungeons of Grimrock).
I hope someone else finds a better title for them soon, because it's far from perfect.
cartman414
Member
(09-21-2017, 10:01 PM)

Originally Posted by Some Nobody

Given how GAF constantly seems to try and push for diversity, its strange to find myself in a thread where people seem to be actively encouraging gatekeeping as a practice. Oh well.

I'm not encouraging gatekeeping. If more people were to check out Divinity/Pillars/etc., I'd be all for it!

I don't mind there being more mainstream RPGs so much as them coming at the expense of what used to be more enthusiast games.

Originally Posted by Szadek

For lack of a better term, I like to call them modern dungeon crawler (as opposed to old school dungeon crawler like Dungeons of Grimrock).
I hope someone else finds a better title for them soon, because it's far from perfect.

Diablo has often been called a click/lootfest.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
(09-21-2017, 10:23 PM)
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Originally Posted by pa22word

Oh, personally I don't really know as I've never played the games. I've played a bit of the various clones over the years but never enough of them to form an opinion on them one way or the other. Just always heard from various friends that they don't consider them rpgs at all, but action games in the vein of Gauntlet, which I always thought made sense given the gameplay.

But... Diablo has no action skill check whatsoever. At least Diablo 3 (I only played very little of the first two because I found the click spam to be utterly boring). In Diablo 3, you hold R2 (and sometimes mash X to refill the mana spent by holding R2) and sometimes move around (you barely dodge ever, despite a dodge button on consoles), and often, not even, you can just stay there and hold the button. You will win if your gear/stats are stronger than the mobs, otherwise you'll die. Basically it's just a numbers/DPS game, not an action game at all.

If to win at a game, you only need to win the numbers check, and not the action skill check, how is that an action game? Maybe it's not an RPG (or a tr00 RPG) but it sure as shit isn't much of an action game. :P
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
(09-21-2017, 10:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kthulhu

I wish I knew which game some of these people were referring to.

"Final Fantasy and Diablo aren't RPGs" then what the hell are they?

The "in b4 noobs call Final Fantasy and Diablo RPGs" comment is only weird because of his tone and because everyone knows how imprecise the RPG label is. I think if you get right down to it (and imagine that the guy in question was, like, referring to games such as the original Fallout as "actual RPGs"), it's not hard to see where he's coming from - Fallout is in a completely different genre from basically any given Final Fantasy, which themselves are in different genres from Diablo. So taking that guy's comment to be a roughly-worded version of "these games aren't in the same genre as (x game) and aren't comparable to it" makes it make a lot of sense.
TakeItSlowDude
Member
(09-21-2017, 10:54 PM)
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Would the reception of modern Bioware and Bethesda games among the hardcore been better if they had called their games Action-Adventure instead of RPGs?
SatelliteOfLove
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(09-21-2017, 11:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by Renekton

This is still unfair to the companies that make them and the millions who play those games. Sometimes they just design a game that people enjoy. For example, FO4 get lots of flak from RPGers but my friend who seldom games still get happy talking about his painstakingly made power armor museum.

TLDR: don't be angry at devs for making "dumbed down" games, just be happy you have your Larian's and Obsidian's.

Was waiting for this.

Before I go further, note the phrasing on this last sentence I bolded for later.

Some of us react well to that ugly decade in the wilderness for grognard-ass CRPGs, waiting for good, crunchy, involved ones to pop up (then the studio behind them to collapse or get put on DLC for some AAA or whatnot), before kickstarter and Gen 8 helped us out of the Publisher Ghetto.

Others are like the one Jim is mocking: bitter, backwards-looking, elitist, who also got helped out of the Publisher Ghetto by the same kickstarters.

But here's the thing to bring it back to that particular phrasing: "just be happy". That lowbrow is default, that it is the standard, the evolved form, an "ours", and that the original form is scraps.

It's an amazing thing, you see, that the more numerous and more advantaged avaricious RPG fans decry the less numerous, less advantaged, yet equally avaricious from atop a moral pillar like this. "There but for the grace of God go thee"
Karak
Member
(09-21-2017, 11:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by Shari

Attention = Revenue. Giving plays means visibility which leads to more Patreon subscribers. I dont think he actively fishes I think his channel thrives on whatever drama is popular atm. On the Zelda subject, having read and had his reviews as an important part of my decision making as with, for example, ACG I think he played down the strength and focused on the quirks deliberately to stir the pot. Not a couple of months before I played and loved yakuza 0 thanks partially to his favorable review which, also in my opinion, did the opposite and praised too much stuff and hid some problems of the game.

I dont have anything against him, I just dont agree with him as I used to and I'm not totally sure he's unbiased by his popularity. Not trying to convince anybody I'm right tho.

I never reviewed Zelda? Haven't even done a video on it? Or did you mean something else. Sorry Just saw the comment.
Last edited by Karak; 09-21-2017 at 11:09 PM.
truestatic
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(09-21-2017, 11:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by TheRedSnifit

The fact that you had to name Dishonored as an RPG to pad out your list speaks volumes about the current state of the genre.

And what are all these modern CRPGs? Obsidian and Larian give us something once in a blue moon, and that's about it? Fallout 4? Lol. There's nothing wrong with liking these games, but don't pretend there's a ton of variety when 99% of modern ones are action or stealth games with stat systems bolted on.

Suuuup. Shadowrun returns, dragonfall, Hong Kong. PoE. Might and Magic... X? Tyranny. Wasteland 2. Grimrick 1 and 2. D:OS 1 and 2. Probably others I can't think of right now. Suffice it to say CRPG is doing pretty okay the last couple years. It's been a more than I can eat buffet.
Sou Da
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(09-21-2017, 11:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by SatelliteOfLove

Was waiting for this.

Before I go further, note the phrasing on this last sentence I bolded for later.

Some of us react well to that ugly decade in the wilderness for grognard-ass CRPGs, waiting for good, crunchy, involved ones to pop up (then the studio behind them to collapse or get put on DLC for some AAA or whatnot), before kickstarter and Gen 8 helped us out of the Publisher Ghetto.

Others are like the one Jim is mocking: bitter, backwards-looking, elitist, who also got helped out of the Publisher Ghetto by the same kickstarters.

But here's the thing to bring it back to that particular phrasing: "just be happy". That lowbrow is default, that it is the standard, the evolved form, an "ours", and that the original form is scraps.

It's an amazing thing, you see, that the more numerous and more advantaged avaricious RPG fans decry the less numerous, less advantaged, yet equally avaricious from atop a moral pillar like this. "There but for the grace of God go thee"

The Crpg community is awful. Like, Christ this entire paragraph.
Mister Saturn
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(09-21-2017, 11:34 PM)
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Watching the video and then reading this thread has been truly surreal.


That was awesome.
Shanaynay
Junior Member
(09-21-2017, 11:35 PM)
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The delivery...

so fuckin good.
Tagyhag
Member
(09-21-2017, 11:36 PM)
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As a HUGE fan of CRPG's, some of their players are also the worst kind of people lol. Never happy with anything.

Love the games, iffy on the community.

Jim's accent goes SO well with this persona.
Huge Succeeded
Member
(09-21-2017, 11:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by Orb

Ive already said what I think an elitist is and yeah I think there is something wrong with that and it's pretty shitty.

:o

you know what that makes you?

AN ELITIST

ha I got chu
Sparrowhawk
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(09-21-2017, 11:37 PM)
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Not really a fan of this guy, but this was pretty funny lol.
AndersK
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(09-21-2017, 11:38 PM)
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I swear, RPGs are the Metal of gaming. You can always count on an argument about what genre something is. Its hilarious.

With regards to the video, Jim is mocking the grognards who have to resort to that kind of rethoric to debase other people for liking stuff like FO4 more than New Vegas or the isometric entries. I sure as fuck donít get it, but iíd have to be fairly sad to think less of them in such a manner. I mean, RPG CODEX is a great site with some amazing reviews and editorials, but the amount of salty bitterness to pour out of that place defies meaning.
Last edited by AndersK; 09-21-2017 at 11:41 PM.
pa22word
Banned
(09-21-2017, 11:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by Morrigan Stark

But... Diablo has no action skill check whatsoever. At least Diablo 3 (I only played very little of the first two because I found the click spam to be utterly boring). In Diablo 3, you hold R2 (and sometimes mash X to refill the mana spent by holding R2) and sometimes move around (you barely dodge ever, despite a dodge button on consoles), and often, not even, you can just stay there and hold the button. You will win if your gear/stats are stronger than the mobs, otherwise you'll die. Basically it's just a numbers/DPS game, not an action game at all.

If to win at a game, you only need to win the numbers check, and not the action skill check, how is that an action game? Maybe it's not an RPG (or a tr00 RPG) but it sure as shit isn't much of an action game. :P

Are you a console gamer by chance? Not being an asshole, but it's an important distinction that the term "action game" and it's lineage varies vastly in the long term lineage between the PC and consoles. While in today's terms Diablo wouldn't be considered an action game in the days where you have console type action platformers and beat em up type games releasing all the time between the two platforms, in the olden days this wasn't really the case at all and the term "action" meant something very different. Again, it's more of an anachronism these days but (and I may be wrong, as noted above I've never gotten into them) Diablo was considered an action game because its systems were geared entirely around combat delivery and game design that fed back into solely the combat, and not "role playing" in the traditional sense at all. Going back to my previous posts, think of something like RE4 in the same context: RE4 is very systems heavy on the back end where you build and balance Leon around either a power approach or a DPS type build. Sure the implementation is drastically simpler than Diablo, but the end result is largely the same: the systems serve to reinforce the combat. This is really at the end of the day no different from the mechanical delivery from Diablo on the backend, just the frontend of the game's design differs in how it engages with the player. I guess a better example is probably borderlands, which is basically Diablo wrapped in a shooters clothing. The moment to moment gameplay is more uh, directly stimulating but the actual systems governing it are entirely wrapped around the loot and statistics governing what you are seeing more than your actions on the screen. Sure it's flashier, but the end result is still largely the same.
Shari
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(09-21-2017, 11:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by Karak

I never reviewed Zelda? Haven't even done a video on it? Or did you mean something else. Sorry Just saw the comment.

I just brought your name cause you are among the reviewers I trust to help my decision making about games.

Thanks to you I played PREY on release when I had no intention to buy, you convinced me and its to me the sleeper of the year.

Probably you didn't understand as it was poorly written, sorry about that.
Mister Saturn
Member
(09-21-2017, 11:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by pa22word

Are you a console gamer by chance? Not being an asshole, but it's an important distinction that the term "action game" and it's lineage varies vastly in the long term lineage between the PC and consoles. While in today's terms Diablo wouldn't be considered an action game in the days where you have console type action platformers and beat em up type games releasing all the time between the two platforms, in the olden days this wasn't really the case at all and the term "action" meant something very different. Again, it's more of an anachronism these days but (and I may be wrong, as noted above I've never gotten into them) Diablo was considered an action game because its systems were geared entirely around combat delivery and game design that fed back into solely the combat, and not "role playing" in the traditional sense at all. Going back to my previous posts, think of something like RE4 in the same context: RE4 is very systems heavy on the back end where you build and balance Leon around either a power approach or a DPS type build. Sure the implementation is drastically simpler than Diablo, but the end result is largely the same: the systems serve to reinforce the combat. This is really at the end of the day no different from the mechanical delivery from Diablo on the backend, just the frontend of the game's design differs in how it engages with the player. I guess a better example is probably borderlands, which is basically Diablo wrapped in a shooters clothing. The moment to moment gameplay is more uh, directly stimulating but the actual systems governing it are entirely wrapped around the loot and statistics governing what you are seeing more than your actions on the screen. Sure it's flashier, but the end result is still largely the same.

Fun fact: Diablo began development as a turn-based RPG because the Blizzard North guys were fans of dungeon crawls like Rogue and Moria.
Karak
Member
(09-21-2017, 11:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by Shari

I just brought your name cause you are among the reviewers I trust to help my decision making about games.

Thanks to you I played PREY on release when I had no intention to buy, you convinced me and its to me the sleeper of the year.

Probably you didn't understand as it was poorly written, sorry about that.

Nope its totally fine. I was on mobile and it was really hard to parse that discussion. Thanks for the clarification.
pa22word
Banned
(09-21-2017, 11:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by Mister Saturn

Fun fact: Diablo began development as a turn-based RPG because the Blizzard North guys were fans of dungeon crawls like Rogue and Moria.

That's really interesting. Reminds me of Halo going from an RTS to what we all know today. I bet it's a really crazy story how the game went from a turn based RPG into what amounts to Gauntlet with heavy systems interaction and how that influenced design going forward.
Fishook
Member
(09-21-2017, 11:54 PM)
I appreciated the irony of the video as a so called pc elitist ( I wouldn't call myselft a hardcore gamer)

Jim has forgotten that most of the modern crpgs have been kickstarted even after successful releases. People like myself have invested our hard earned money to help develop games we want to play. There are some idiots who are completely anal when it comes to rpgs. But every game has them.

I enjoy multi format games as the next person, but I have no desire to get involved in the grind that alor of modern games which consists as gameplay. Each to there own I suppose.
Sou Da
Member
(09-21-2017, 11:58 PM)
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Originally Posted by AndersK

I swear, RPGs are the Metal of gaming. You can always count on an argument about what genre something is. Its hilarious.

With regards to the video, Jim is mocking the grognards who have to resort to that kind of rethoric to debase other people for liking stuff like FO4 more than New Vegas or the isometric entries. I sure as fuck donít get it, but iíd have to be fairly sad to think less of them in such a manner. I mean, RPG CODEX is a great site with some amazing reviews and editorials, but the amount of salty bitterness to pour out of that place defies meaning.

I still think this is the equivalent to reading the sports column on the Daily Stormer.
Mister Saturn
Member
(09-21-2017, 11:58 PM)
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Originally Posted by pa22word

That's really interesting. Reminds me of Halo going from an RTS to what we all know today. I bet it's a really crazy story how the game went from a turn based RPG into what amounts to Gauntlet with heavy systems interaction and how that influenced design going forward.

David L. Craddock has got you covered.. Now if only he'd get around to releasing Book 2...
The Wart
Member
(09-22-2017, 12:39 AM)
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Originally Posted by SatelliteOfLove

Was waiting for this.

Before I go further, note the phrasing on this last sentence I bolded for later.

Some of us react well to that ugly decade in the wilderness for grognard-ass CRPGs, waiting for good, crunchy, involved ones to pop up (then the studio behind them to collapse or get put on DLC for some AAA or whatnot), before kickstarter and Gen 8 helped us out of the Publisher Ghetto.

Others are like the one Jim is mocking: bitter, backwards-looking, elitist, who also got helped out of the Publisher Ghetto by the same kickstarters.

But here's the thing to bring it back to that particular phrasing: "just be happy". That lowbrow is default, that it is the standard, the evolved form, an "ours", and that the original form is scraps.

It's an amazing thing, you see, that the more numerous and more advantaged avaricious RPG fans decry the less numerous, less advantaged, yet equally avaricious from atop a moral pillar like this. "There but for the grace of God go thee"

Good lord. The popularity of your preferred genre is not a moral issue, and if you think it is you should seriously reexamine your worldview.

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