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Messofanego · Sep 25, 2017

Due to the toxic gaming culture. This is beyond constructive criticism. We all have a part to play in this. Youtube, gaming forums, and social media. Compare game announcements to movie announcements and how people react to them. Game developers talk to each other and are candid with each other. Game developers don't really compete with each other, such as "competitors" that produce games on different platforms will often praise each other.

https://twitter.com/charlesrandall/status/911987526541430784

We don't understand budgets. We don't understand engines. We don't understand adding or removing features. We don't understand how much can change from inception to the final release.

Lay off the ad hominem. I've been guilty of this, and it's partly because we're in communities that foster it. It's time to do some self-reflection and think twice before what you're about to say publicly because it's possibly going to be heard by who we are targeting.

As Adam Sessler once said in relation to Killzone 2 back in 2009:
"I have one idea. For those of you out there who don't come to messageboards but would like to engage in an intelligent and normal discussion about videogames where you say 'hey I really liked Fable 2', 'you did? I just had a problem with it', 'huh I hadn't really thought of that but you might want to look at it this way'. If you would like that, if we can get sixty people on one of these boards, because I think it's thirty people causing this. Maybe if we can bring down the noise from them and bring up the level of discourse."

Deeke[VRZ] · Sep 25, 2017

Reminds me of today's Eurogamer interview with Monolith; essentially the Shadow of War design director wants more feedback on new features but loot boxes steal the conversation at every turn.

It's sad tbh. Imagine how open the industry would be if things were different. Imagine how many games would exist and how much competition there'd be, and how confident devs would be in their games and creations.

TC McQueen · Sep 25, 2017

I dunno, isn't like 99% of this due to the fact that game developers don't tell the general gaming public how hard this stuff is? If no one ever spreads the information about how costly it is to implement multiplayer or switch engines, why would you expect the average joe to realize how damn hard/expensive it is?

neverknowsbest · Sep 25, 2017

From observing the way people talk about game dev, I can completely understand why they'd never want to interact with gamers ever. Gamers seem to think that because they spend a lot of time playing games , that makes them an expert on designing games.

theWB27 · Sep 25, 2017

TC McQueen said:
I dunno, isn't like 99% of this due to the fact that game developers don't tell the general gaming public how hard this stuff is? If no one ever spreads the information about how costly it is to implement multiplayer or switch engines, why would you expect the average joe to realize how damn hard/expensive it is?

The people who'd complain about things like that wouldn't care either way.

MetalliCabombination · Sep 25, 2017

TC McQueen said:
I dunno, isn't like 99% of this due to the fact that game developers don't tell the general gaming public how hard this stuff is? If no one ever spreads the information about how costly it is to implement multiplayer or switch engines, why would you expect the average joe to realize how damn hard/expensive it is?

The problem is how the average joe already runs around claiming he knows everything.
The number of times i hear x game could run on y platform because z engine... Smh.

Bits N Pieces · Sep 25, 2017

But why don't they just make it 60fps? Lazy devs.

KZXcellent · Sep 25, 2017

Deeke[VRZ];249949779 said:
Reminds me of today's Eurogamer interview with Monolith; essentially the Shadow of War design director wants more feedback on new features but loot boxes steal the conversation at every turn.

It's sad tbh. Imagine how open the industry would be if things were different. Imagine how many games would exist and how much competition there'd be, and how confident devs would be in their games and creations.

It's unfortunate that WB had to ruin the conversation.

dan2026 · Sep 25, 2017

Deeke[VRZ];249949779 said:
Reminds me of today's Eurogamer interview with Monolith; essentially the Shadow of War design director wants more feedback on new features but loot boxes steal the conversation at every turn.

Well maybe they shouldn't of put such horrible anti consumer crap in their full price game.

You can't be shitty to your customer then complain when you rightly get called out on it.

epmode · Sep 25, 2017

Deeke[VRZ];249949779 said:
Reminds me of today's Eurogamer interview with Monolith; essentially the Shadow of War design director wants more feedback on new features but loot boxes steal the conversation at every turn.

Loot box nonsense is killing AAA games. It's absolutely fair game. Complaining about something that's exploiting the fanbase to such an extent isn't exactly what Mr. Randall is talking about either.

DriftingSpirit · Sep 25, 2017

He is right. There is just so much the public don't understand (and aren't willing to understand) that it makes any sort of communication pointless. It isn't worth the outrage and general nonsense.

jennetics · Sep 25, 2017

Any time I see mention of "lazy devs" on a thread, I assume that person knows jack-shit about video games.

I tend to agree with Charles here because the internet has turned communities into jaded and cynical jerks that feel obligated to throw hot takes and then peace out. Obviously it's not everyone, but the vocal minority can really crap up a place.

McBradders · Sep 25, 2017

dan2026 said:
Well maybe they shouldn't of put such horrible anti consumer crap in their full price game.

You can't be shitty to your customer then complain when you rightly get called out on it.

One thing "gamers" need to understand is the difference between a developer and a publisher, maybe then a more level headed conversation can take place.

Kyougar · Sep 25, 2017

theWB27 said:
The people who'd complain about things like that wouldn't care either way.

So they blame the rest of us because of some loud assholes?

Kinyou · Sep 25, 2017

He makes some good points, however, the one about how the movie industry manages to be candid feels actually more like a counterpoint to me because the community surrounding movies can be incredibly toxic as well and yet do the studios manage to be candid.

And of course is it tough to show off games when so much can change during development, but to be not open about those changes and to just pretend that Watchdogs still looked the same as the E3 demonstration only fuels the hate

ItWasMeantToBe19 · Sep 25, 2017

I think there's definitely a lot of truth to this, but I do wonder if game developers set impossibly unrealistic schedules that causes early disclosure of game development to be a bad idea because the dates will be missed.

There's a line in Blood, Sweat, and Pixels that says "you can't schedule when something will be fun" and that just seems like madness. Estimate how long it will take based on prior industry work and how ambitious this certain feature is.

Maybe the "can't schedule when something will be fun!" is not a common opinion though.

tokkun · Sep 25, 2017

I don't think the game industry is particularly special in this regard. He thinks it is because that is what he is exposed to. If you spend time with the obsessive fans of other media, you'll find "toxic" discussion as well.

Maintenance · Sep 25, 2017

striferser · Sep 25, 2017

He's right. people literally got death threat for changing one minor aspect of the game.

TC McQueen said:
I dunno, isn't like 99% of this due to the fact that game developers don't tell the general gaming public how hard this stuff is? If no one ever spreads the information about how costly it is to implement multiplayer or switch engines, why would you expect the average joe to realize how damn hard/expensive it is?

Considering several dev show their game budget and operation cost that's no longer an excuse. There's a website dedicated to tell people what's like behind the scene of game development. Most people just want to scream and play armchair developer instead of trying to understand game development or if there's office politic involved in their decision.
This even happen in Neogaf, and out there is even worse.

Sami+ · Sep 25, 2017

I don't know, I think the posts from developers on this board talking about their experiences and relating it to other topics is a really valuable part of the forum and would be welcome in the community as a whole. He's not wrong in that stupid people will continue to be stupid and it can be potentially dangerous to give them any "ammunition" so to speak, but I also don't think it's right to potentially alienate the more understanding side of the market because the assholes will be assholes about it.

Alienous · Sep 25, 2017

I'm struggling to think of aspects that consumers want game developers to be more candid about.

If they're talking about techniques GDC panels are watchable by the public. Otherwise it's a seller/buyer relationship, and that isn't conducive to being candid.

tuxfool · Sep 25, 2017

TC McQueen said:
I dunno, isn't like 99% of this due to the fact that game developers don't tell the general gaming public how hard this stuff is? If no one ever spreads the information about how costly it is to implement multiplayer or switch engines, why would you expect the average joe to realize how damn hard/expensive it is?

There is plenty of information out there. Good luck getting those that don't care enough to look it up and to actually internalize that, or listen to those that attempt to bring some of those realities into the conversation.

Nephtes · Sep 25, 2017

jennetics said:
Any time I see mention of "lazy devs" on a thread, I assume that person knows jack-shit about video games.

I tend to agree with Charles here because the internet has turned communities into jaded and cynical jerks that feel obligated to throw hot takes and then peace out. Obviously it's not everyone, but the vocal minority can really crap up a place.

As a lazy dev who is reading NeoGAF instead of developing software features right this second...
We exist. 🙂

Granted, I haven't been developing in the games industry for a long time.
I don't know how one can be a lazy developer in the games industry.
It's 200% work work work crunch crunch crunch get it done yesterday...

I couldn't take that grind. I missed my family and now I work in a software development job where we don't have those kinds of deadlines.

But yeah, if you're making games for a studio under a major publisher, you're not lazy... Overworked, sure. But not lazy.

Edit: also, I cant imagine working in the games industry today. When I was in the industry, it was long before Twitter and Facebook and social media. If we wanted feedback from players we either had to find them, scour fan sites, or hope people would post on our message boards.
Now I feel companies probably wish they got less of the kind of "overt" feedback they get.

OceanBlue · Sep 25, 2017

TC McQueen said:
I dunno, isn't like 99% of this due to the fact that game developers don't tell the general gaming public how hard this stuff is? If no one ever spreads the information about how costly it is to implement multiplayer or switch engines, why would you expect the average joe to realize how damn hard/expensive it is?

The information is out there. People don't care to try and do research as long as they are able to make up an explanation that is half-plausible.

ItWasMeantToBe19 · Sep 25, 2017

Alienous said:
I'm struggling to think of aspects that consumers want game developers to be more candid about.

If they're talking about techniques GDC panels are watchable by the public. Otherwise it's a seller/buyer relationship, and that isn't conducive to being candid.

Some consumers would want to know what game their favorite developers are working on and when it will come out and other things.

Like, as a consumer, I would like to know why Cyber2Connect got fired from making FF7R just for general curiosity.

mullet2000 · Sep 25, 2017

I mean, I can't say I've ever seen people get up in arms about the actual methods used to make a game. Where is that happening?

People get upset about content or business practices (ie microtransactions) all the time. But development methods? Where is that happening?

Mexen · Sep 25, 2017

Awful shame, the innards of game development are fascinating to me.

Samemind · Sep 25, 2017

TC McQueen said:
I dunno, isn't like 99% of this due to the fact that game developers don't tell the general gaming public how hard this stuff is? If no one ever spreads the information about how costly it is to implement multiplayer or switch engines, why would you expect the average joe to realize how damn hard/expensive it is?

Here's a fantastic microcosm of what happens when reality intersects with GAF, nevermind the general public

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=516730

thesonovabeach · Sep 25, 2017

TC McQueen said:
I dunno, isn't like 99% of this due to the fact that game developers don't tell the general gaming public how hard this stuff is? If no one ever spreads the information about how costly it is to implement multiplayer or switch engines, why would you expect the average joe to realize how damn hard/expensive it is?

You mean you never watched a NoClip documentary ? Video Game The Movie ? A video game making of ? A game dev interview ?

I understand people not knowing everything avout game dev, but blaming them for not educating people seems a bit much.

Canucked · Sep 25, 2017

Dwelling on something you hate is a big problem in gaming. Hate it, fine. Articulate your points if needed.

But I see people on gaf all the time who will jump into every thread related to something they hate for months just to remind everyone. Not healthy.

Orca · Sep 25, 2017

mullet2000 said:
I mean, I can't say I've ever seen people get up in arms about the actual methods used to make a game. Where is that happening?

People get upset about content or business practices all the time. But development methods? Where is that happening?

Read a thread about Unity some time.

KJRS_1993 · Sep 25, 2017

I can absolutely see his point.

No matter what game developers do, the community at large will react like a bunch of cocks. Look at some of the stupid ass shit you see regularly on this forum even. Everyone's a discount Jim Sterling (not a good thing), everything is 'anti consumer' and out to steal from you, and there's no scope for any kind of middle ground or reasonable thinking. There's no point trying to discuss, share ideas or apply any rational thought, the community simply aren't interested in it.

MadLaughter · Sep 25, 2017

Seems like a catch-22. "We don't talk about these things because of dumbasses" is decent enough reasoning, but at some point if enough people talk about these things, it'll be common enough knowledge for the community to self-police?

It's probably not worth it to the individual though, as Randall talks about. It seems defeatist, but on the other hand I don't have any suggestions for it to be better.

thekeats · Sep 25, 2017

ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
I think there's definitely a lot of truth to this, but I do wonder if game developers set impossibly unrealistic schedules that causes early disclosure of game development to be a bad idea because the dates will be missed.

But unless it's an indie developer aren't the schedules set by the Publisher and not the developers?

Same with concepts like the loot boxes. I would imagine that is more down to a publisher wanting to monetise a release for as long as possible.

Anyway, interesting read. Between this, the monolith interview and the chinese room article there has been a lot if interesting tidbits about how development works.

Alienous · Sep 25, 2017

ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Some consumers would want to know what game their favorite developers are working on and when it will come out and other things.

Like, as a consumer, I would like to know why Cyber2Connect got fired from making FF7R just for general curiosity.

I can understand that, but that's more of a business dealing. The reason why a developer wouldn't be candid about that is likely contractual, and would have nothing to do with a "toxic community".

speedpop · Sep 25, 2017

The fault lies in humanity and their own abstract emotions toward a certain objective. It isn't limited to videogames. We see this in all media formats, let alone social relationships.

It's just a curse. A public curse. A game developer will run in to a circus of shitheads regardless of genre, regardless of format, regardless of whatever.

Better off keeping your mouth shut, your windows closed, the door locked, and turning into a hermit. People complain about Nintendo's marketing strategy, but it's the safest thing you can think of in this day and age of vein-shooting public space - say nothing than anything at all.

Alienous · Sep 25, 2017

Canucked said:
Dwelling on something you hate is a big problem in gaming. Hate it, fine. Articulate your points if needed.

But I see people on gaf all the time who will jump into every thread related to something they hate for months just to remind everyone. Not healthy.

It's a discussion forum. It's the flipside of effusive praise. People feel strongly about things, positive or negative. That's true throughout life - you can't just get the good. It's all different shades of caring about something.

For instance MvCI has gotten a lot of shit, but that's because people care about the franchise. No Man's Sky got a lot of shit, but that's because people got invested in the idea and felt lied to.

It's just how fandom works.

Syril · Sep 25, 2017

I mean I can understand his perspective. As a player there are certainly games that I don't want to play because I don't want to open myself to verbal abuse like that. I even stopped playing League of Legends despite enjoying it for that reason.

ItWasMeantToBe19 · Sep 25, 2017

I definitely think gamers freak out too much when a game changes majorly during development.

Not talking about when a game cuts a major feature that they hyped up or downgrades graphics it could never reached, but just changing minor things. People have a great deal of nostalgia for builds that never came out that never came out because they were likely bad.

Arklite · Sep 25, 2017

I think it's understandable, particularly with early development. An idea can morph completely or a big feature could be removed entirely and if fans saw such things occur it'd just be a mess of upset people. I recently read Jason Schreiers book which illuminated some of the drastic changes that have to be made.

Skellig Gra · Sep 25, 2017

Companies have PR people for a reason. Use them and problem solved.

Tempy · Sep 25, 2017

ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
I definitely think gamers freak out too much when a game changes majorly during development.

Not talking about when a game cuts a major feature that they hyped up or downgrades graphics it could never reached, but just changing minor things. People have a great deal of nostalgia for builds that never came out that never came out because they were likely bad.

This is also why I think it's pointless to talk about features that were cut or show old concept art. You'll always have someone lose their top over how the cut feature or old design was so much better than what they got.

speedpop · Sep 25, 2017

Alienous said:
It's a discussion forum. It's the flipside of effusive praise. People feel strongly about things, positive or negative. That's true throughout life - you can't just get the good. It's all different shades of caring about something.

For instance MvCI has gotten a lot of shit, but that's because people care about the franchise. No Man's Sky got a lot of shit, but that's because people got invested in the idea and felt lied to.

It's just how fandom works.

This is a perfect example of learning how far one comes to invest in themselves against a piece of media. Is it worth it to become so strongly associated with that? What causes of effect result in it? If the product itself becomes bogus then would that lead to aggravation or an acceptance of resolve?

Emotions run high. That's understandable. But it comes down to the individual to resolve that and it's often difficult to overcome those challenges without seeking a third party.

Alienous · Sep 25, 2017

ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
I definitely think gamers freak out too much when a game changes majorly during development.

Not talking about when a game cuts a major feature that they hyped up or downgrades graphics it could never reached, but just changing minor things. People have a great deal of nostalgia for builds that never came out that never came out because they were likely bad.

Sure, but Unseen64 is an example of the passion people have towards games.

I can't think of an example of an inferior version of a game being shown, the developer explaining that it wasn't any good, and fans (en masse) insisting that the developer is incorrect. The Last of Us changed its HUD, Naughty Dog explained the choice, people moved on. I can't think of an instance that doesn't follow that pattern.

bishoptl · Sep 25, 2017

Bits N Pieces said:
But why don't they just make it 60fps? Lazy devs.

I know you're joking, but you have *no idea* how much flak I took over the years from colleagues who knew I was on here over the number of comments like this (and worse) that were dead serious.

Shit ranges from annoying to hurtful to flat-out scary for some. That ain't cool.

speedpop · Sep 25, 2017

Hollywood Duo said:
Companies have PR people for a reason. Use them and problem solved.

I'm sure publishers would love to dial the clock back to the late-80s/early-90s and immediately paste videogamers in a light of ignorant young adolescence. Unfortunately I just don't see that taking off considering the stigma we swam through back in the day.

Tapejara · Sep 25, 2017

It happens way to often where hatred of a game, member of the team or studio turns into a meme. There's a big difference between expressing constructive criticism and just being vindictive. All too often I see people choose the latter.

MadLaughter said:
Seems like a catch-22. "We don't talk about these things because of dumbasses" is decent enough reasoning, but at some point if enough people talk about these things, it'll be common enough knowledge for the community to self-police?

It's probably not worth it to the individual though, as Randall talks about. It seems defeatist, but on the other hand I don't have any suggestions for it to be better.

Yeah, the problem is really the individual cost. If more discussion appeared it's possible community reception would improve, but to get there individuals first need to open themselves up to the (very likely) possibility of internet mobs and targeted harassment campaigns. I'd love to hear more about what goes in the background of game development, but I don't blame anyone for not talking to preserve their sanity.

Chaos2Frozen · Sep 25, 2017

Hollywood Duo said:
Companies have PR people for a reason. Use them and problem solved.

Then people would complain that developers aren't open with them.

UnemployedVillain · Sep 25, 2017

Any gamers who actually care to know will watch the GDC talks so I'm okay with the current level of development insight, as long as they keep those up.

stanislavskov · Sep 25, 2017

What saddens me is that not only everything he said is true, it applies to several people who post in this forum (heck, on the very first page of this thread, ffs).

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