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Assassin's Creed: Origin's Depiction of Cleopatra

H

Harlequin

Member
Hektor said:
Do they? AC has been as historically accurate as a drunken stormtrooper for the most part with its forced in assassins vs templar conflicts

Not that I disagree about accuracy being important tho.
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I think anyone who's somewhat knowledgeable of history and has played an AC game or two knows that they're not very accurate, true. However, Ubisoft does like to harp on about how much research they do (granted, usually when it comes to building historical cities, not characters, but still) and they do like to trot out their in-house historians for their marketing campaigns so I guess the answer is "yes and no" :p.
 
Ovek

Ovek

7Member7
Let's face it sexing up Cleopatra to modern standards is no where near as bad as making a fucking spider a hot sexy lady.
 
M

Mass_Pincup

Banned
Harlequin said:
I think anyone who's somewhat knowledgeable of history and has played an AC game or two knows that they're not very accurate, true. However, Ubisoft does like to harp on about how much research they do (granted, usually when it comes to building historical cities, not characters, but still) and they do like to trot out their in-house historians for their marketing campaigns so I guess the answer is "yes and no" :p.
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They try to make the setting historically accurate, not the relationship and stories of the historical figures.
 
Z

zoukka

Member
This is AC, I would never expect anything more than stylized, sexy pandering from them and it's completely fine.
 
T

Tagavaka

Neo Member
TheRazielim said:
Do you really think Ubihacks are capable of eliciting the latter through writing only?

In any case, this game was meant to be a clusterfuck to begin with in terms of historicity, since for the masses it's still AN ANCIENT EGYPT GAME WOOHOO so the fact that it's set in Ptolemaic times doesn't even matter, I am sure it will have plenty of anachronistic stuff that conflates Early/Middle/Late kingdom things with the Ptolemaic era.
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I see your point lol

Hektor said:
Do they? AC has been as historically accurate as a drunken stormtrooper for the most part with its forced in assassins vs templar conflicts

Not that I disagree about accuracy being important tho.
Click to expand...
Joey Ravn said:
I don't think the Assassin's Creed ever tried to be "historically accurate". That sounds like franchise revisionism to me. If anything, they outright said that they were taking characters, events and settings and rolling with them as they saw fit for their own narrative. Where are you getting the idea that these games "laud themselves" on "historical accuracy"?
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Sorry I will be clear when I say laud themselves on I don't mean I think the games are historically accurate but that I have been given the impression by Ubisoft themselves that they have aimed for making things as accurate as they can. Which obviously they have failed at many times. But perhaps I am mis remembering things I thought I had read in interviews and from the devs


Harlequin said:
I think anyone who's somewhat knowledgeable of history and has played an AC game or two knows that they're not very accurate, true. However, Ubisoft does like to harp on about how much research they do (granted, usually when it comes to building historical cities, not characters, but still) and they do like to trot out their in-house historians for their marketing campaigns so I guess the answer is "yes and no" :p.
Click to expand...

Yes! This is what I was getting to when I said they laud their historical accuracy. I have never thought them to have followed through with this properly but i'm glad you posted this because I was starting to think I had imagined it
 
H

Harlequin

Member
arcticice said:
You are right, but you have to understand that Ubisoft is making a game for general audience. had they made her outfit more Greek, i am willing to bet there'd be a lot of people complaining that why would they dress an Egyptian woman like that. You can judge from this thread as well. most of the people do not care about historical accuracy.

TL/DR: You are right, but general gaming audience doesn't care.
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Fair enough and that's probably true. Doesn't lessen my disappointment but oh well :p.
 
J

JonnyDBrit

Member
Joey Ravn said:
I don't think the Assassin's Creed ever tried to be "historically accurate". That sounds like franchise revisionism to me. If anything, they outright said that they were taking characters, events and settings and rolling with them as they saw fit for their own narrative. Where are you getting the idea that these games "laud themselves" on "historical accuracy"?
Click to expand...

In fairness, the franchise - or at least its fandom - has long leaned on a presumption of visual accuracy (rather than narrative, for damned obvious reasons), particularly in terms of its physical setting. Hence the whole talk of 'historical tourism' often pinned to it, as with videos like this. You can also see it with things like showing the Pyramids as the glistening, golden tipped structures they once were (though knowing what the period is now, that may be anachronistic?), rather than the well eroded structures they are today.

In this regard, Cleopatra is probably going to be the most iconic person in the game unless Julius Caesar himself walks into the room. So it's not that surprising that she be the character built to meet audience expectations above all others.
 
T

TrutaS

Member
It's absolutely fine and not even overly sexualised. I bet at the time she exposed a lot more flesh as that was the culture.
 
F

Fliesen

Member
I value the OP's thread and the information given.
It would be awesome to get a more 'realistic' depiction of Cleopatra and not the 'westernized' depiction we've been fed time and time again.

Though i don't think it's realistic to have Ubisoft do that in one of their AC games.

The 'famous people' you meet along the way kinda need to be recognizable, otherwise players would be confused as to why they didn't match the appearance they expected them to look like.

Assassin's creed games are less like a trip to the (historically accurate) museum, but to a theme park, really.
 
H

Harlequin

Member
JonnyDBrit said:
In fairness, the franchise - or at least its fandom - has long leaned on a presumption of visual accuracy (rather than narrative, for damned obvious reasons), particularly in terms of its physical setting. Hence the whole talk of 'historical tourism' often pinned to it, as with videos like this. You can also see it with things like showing the Pyramids as the glistening, golden tipped structures they once were (though knowing what the period is now, that may be anachronistic?), rather than the well eroded structures they are today.
Click to expand...

AFAIK, most of the outer casing of the Pyramids was still intact during Cleopatra's times. I think most of it was removed during the construction of Cairo, actually. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, though.

TrutaS said:
It's absolutely fine and not even overly sexualised. I bet at the time she exposed a lot more flesh as that was the culture.
Click to expand...

I didn't mean sexualised in the sense that she shows a lot of skin, I meant sexualised in the sense that she's been made to look more sexually attractive to modern audiences (slimmer, prettier face, etc).
 
F

feint_ruled

Member
Be a good plot twist if she was actually really ugly (even by the standards of the time) but everyone pretended she was beautiful purely out of fear.

I appreciate the historical insight from the OP, but I think if they had an accurately depicted Cleopatra it would be too dissonant to the modern player who would be expected to treat her as a great beauty.
 
J

JonnyDBrit

Member
feint_ruled said:
Be a good plot twist if she was actually really ugly (even by the standards of the time) but everyone pretended she was beautiful purely out of fear.

I appreciate the historical insight from the OP, but I think if they had an accurately depicted Cleopatra it would be too dissonant to the modern player who would be expected to treat her as a great beauty.
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...Maybe have her beauty be the work of an Apple of Eden?
 
N

Nokagi

Unconfirmed Member
Historically accurate or not Cleopatra has been portrayed as being beautiful for a very long time. So it's hard to really put much blame on Ubisoft for this. It's simply how most people have come to view her.
 
H

Hektor

Member
Harlequin said:
I think anyone who's somewhat knowledgeable of history and has played an AC game or two knows that they're not very accurate, true. However, Ubisoft does like to harp on about how much research they do (granted, usually when it comes to building historical cities, not characters, but still) and they do like to trot out their in-house historians for their marketing campaigns so I guess the answer is "yes and no" :p.
Click to expand...

Tagavaka said:
Sorry I will be clear when I say laud themselves on I don't mean I think the games are historically accurate but that I have been given the impression by Ubisoft themselves that they have aimed for making things as accurate as they can. Which obviously they have failed at many times. But perhaps I am mis remembering things I thought I had read in interviews and from the devs
Click to expand...

Have never really been follow Ubisoft interviews and the likes, so I stand corrected
 
A

Auctopus

Member
zoukka said:
This is AC, I would never expect anything more than stylized, sexy pandering from them
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AC has had some very good female character design in the past that isn't "sexy pandering"....

23aa677876338bf3dcdf88c625f2147a.jpg
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21d169b05d7ba667c996084bd04a3acc--assassins-creed-china-assassins-creed-female.jpg
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98853bbac9e4efe8adab4b531b92b8aa.jpg
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I mean, the characters are attractive and are stylised in the same sense that every assassin from the series is but I wouldn't say that's "sexy pandering".
 
GavinUK86

GavinUK86

Member
Blame Abstergo. They're the ones who made her look that way to us when we use the Animus. Damn revisionist Templar history.
 
TLZ

TLZ

Banned
Assassins (hashashin) didn't even originate in Egypt. Are we going to cry about that?

Who gives a flying f?
 
D

daxy

Member
I don't have any issue with this to be honest. Ass Creed has never been really historically accurate in its previous iterations, nor does it strive to be beyond general thematic elements and that's fine.
 
B

bosseye

Member
Hardly matters. Its Ubisoft giving us what we the masses think Cleopatra looks like, the concept of Cleopatra as recognised in mass media as oppose to what she more likely did look like.
 
F

Forkball

Member
Theorry said:
Already more posts then the gameplay impression thread. I dont get GAF sometimes..
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Nick Robinson getting fired got more posts than many OTs.

Pick your battles OP. They made Cleopatra look like what everyone thinks Cleopatra looked like. Write a sweeping, historically accurate epic about the REAL Cleopatra of this is something you're passionate about.
 
D

Dyle

Member
Yeah this is a shame. The Ptolemys had such distinct profiles and Cleopatra inherited the look from them, both through her heritage and in the way she branded her reign. The outfit in the OP is gross and way too modern, totally not fitting the setting. At least her skin tone is appropriate
 
K

KageMaru

Member
I'm sure it's been said but I bet this design, along with other depictions of her, was to keep up with player expectations. Most people knew her to be beautiful without considering how beauty was perceived at the time.
 
T

TangoAlphaLima

Member
Cleopatra was deemed to be very beautiful by standards at the time. But if she is depicted accurately now, today's audience would not view her as beautiful by today's standards. It makes some sense to change her appearance for that reason. Now, if she was whitewashed a bit, that's a different story, but the updated beauty part is fine.
 
Tal Shiar Agent

Tal Shiar Agent

Member
TLZ said:
Assassins (hashashin) didn't even originate in Egypt. Are we going to cry about that?

Who gives a flying f?
Click to expand...
In lore the Assassins started with Adam and Eve ~70,000 years ago in the aftermath of the Human-Isu War and Toba. The Templars were formed from Cain.
 
T

TechnicPuppet

Nothing! I said nothing!
I studied depictions of Cleopatra in media for a bit at uni. Beginners stuff.

The main takeaway for me was that she was depicted differently in history to suit the story that was being told about her.

In the films we looked at she was depicted pretty much as Ubisoft have only white.
 
Bog

Bog

Junior Ace
Harlequin said:
But even if we're going to ignore her physical features, that'd still leave her outfit being Egyptian instead of Greek. (And I'm not even entirely sure if it's accurate as far as ancient Egyptian fashion goes so it may well be pseudo-Egyptian.)
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I can confirm it is. Just talked to my buddy Lou about it.
 
H

Harlequin

Member
TangoAlphaLima said:
Cleopatra was deemed to be very beautiful by standards at the time. But if she is depicted accurately now, today's audience would not view her as beautiful by today's standards. It makes some sense to change her appearance for that reason. Now, if she was whitewashed a bit, that's a different story, but the updated beauty part is fine.
Click to expand...

We've been over this, she probably wasn't actually considered particularly beautiful in her own time, either. Her main draw were her wit, intelligence and charme. She was incredibly well-educated (there were few large monarchies left in the Mediterranean at the time which means few - if any - families could put as much money and resources into their children's education as the Ptolemies could, not to mention that Alexandria was the center of science and learning in the Mediterranean world), eloquent, fluent in seven languages and so on. Add to that the fact that she was covered in the rarest and finest fabrics, jewellery and fragrances money could buy and you can see how, despite not being an exceptional beauty, she would have exuded a magnetic aura.
 
K

Kinyou

Member
I am surprised that they didn't put some big emphasis on the nose. Maybe I read too much Asterix as a kid

EEXWkzK.jpg


Lime said:
at least they didn't whitewash her as so much other entertainment media does
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Going by the info in the OP it would be more accurate if she'd look greek and not egyptian
 
C

Con Con

Member
OP, thank you for the thread. That was genuinely interesting to read and was informative.

The assassin's creed games aren't always historically accurate and of course gameplay comes before non-fiction. I do enjoy reading their codex entries which usually are historically accurate but then given a snarky flare to explain why the animus may represent it differently.

Maybe there will be an in game explanation but either way, your character is likely to be working for Cleopatra directly and that's already absurd. Also, while there are hints as to her facial features it is impossible to really know what she looked like.
 
B

Bishop89

Member
Kinyou said:
I am surprised that they didn't put some big emphasis on the nose. Maybe I read too much Asterix as a kid

EEXWkzK.jpg



Going by the info in the OP it would be more accurate if she'd look greek and not egyptian
Click to expand...

attire aside, plenty of greek ladies that look like the AC:O Cleopatra pics
 
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