ChamplooJones
Formerly Momotaro
Funny enough I was planning to try Josie and Katarina to see which one I liked better.
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The Fighting Game Noob Thread: From Scrub to Master
- Thread starter Cindi Mayweather
- Start date
I mean, there's info here other than frame data if you're not at that level yet. This thread is for the noobest of noobs to those that are merely 'ok'. Dont get discouraged because there's some info you dont understand.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Frame data's not super vital to learn off the bat. Usually the game will give you visual cues that you can use to derive a big chunk of that intuitively. A lot of it's also covered in the game's general rules. Jabs are faster than medium attacks, medium attacks are faster than heavy etc. (Except in Netherrealm games then YOLO)
I generally use it as a quick reference when I'm unsure how to punish something after the fact. It's either that, or pissing away time in practice mode.
notworksafe
Member
later. if just seeing numbers scares you, you probably weren't ever going to learn anything anyway
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Um. You can just ignore it. This thread is going to have different levels. All I was doing was making a point about reading Tekken frame data. Anyways, I just used it so I could see how fast the moves the more advanced players were using because they use them are pokes very frequently, and it's a good idea to try to understand as to why so that when the game drops I'm already familiar with my characters go to moves and why I should be using them. As opposed to wasting my time going through hundreds of moves and figuring it out myself.
All I did was look at numbers and compare them to the number of 10 (startup) and 0 (on block and hit) and see where they landed, looked at the command, and then compared it to video footage to see if that was the command. Honestly, frame data is nothing. Ask me about option selects. Just ignore it if you're not familiar but it's not that hard. I'm not high level lol.
I think you're being unreasonable.
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You realize you can plink in SF4 which makes the game repeat your input on the next frame, right? There are a ton of games out there with 1f links and no plinking.
While frame data isn't necessary it's still basic knowledge that can accelerate the growth. Also it can be used even outside of the game to check up on things.
Obviously it's just on theoretical side, because it doesn't include push back distance.
Though I do understand when people see those and finds them off-putting. Because there is a little bit math is involved. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
There are a lot of things that are pretty generalizable. Lights are usually 3 or 4 frame startup, at worst minus a tiny amount on block but usually plus a couple frames. St.MK is often a good poke, while the medium punches and cr.MK are special-cancelable but are outranged by St.MK. Cr.HK is a sweep, crush counters, has good priority, and is quite punishable on block. One or more of your heavy normals also crush counter, etc. etc. Of course there are tons of exceptions, but claiming there is "zero consistency" is pretty absurd.
lmaoo
That modded Tekken 6 from the FAQ seems like a great intro/learning tool. I should really get through Injustice's story before T7 comes out so I don't have yet another thing haunting my backlog, but that mod looks like it'll be really easy to sneak a few minutes with here and there. Nice way to get a little bit of basic familiarity before the real thing lands.
ChamplooJones
Formerly Momotaro
Dude was trolling y'all. Don't even bother.
On topic, I'm gonna finally learn how to backdash cancel when T7 is out. I've played pad for Tekken all my life so this should be interesting.
On topic, I'm gonna finally learn how to backdash cancel when T7 is out. I've played pad for Tekken all my life so this should be interesting.
Dude...
lucebuce12
Member
Somebody was an asshole and did something mean. They messed up the list and wrote hate stuff on there.
If you can get a previous version of the list and restore it to that, that'd be great. Maybe make a new one and hide it behind [EMAIL][/EMAIL] tags so only members can see it.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Wow. Yeah, I'll find a way to make a new list.
When starting Tekken I find it's most useful to go into training mode for your favorite and go down the move list, trying each one.
Skip stuff you can't do after a couple tries, just keep moving.
Then fight some matches trying to remember a couple of your favorite moves.
Next time you feel the itch to play go through the movelist again, pick up some other moves you like or think are effective. This way you get execution practice, awareness of options and gradually grow your "feel" of the character.
It's a little like gradual physical training, and will give your fighting style a unique base to grow from. Looking up all the perfect max damage combos and ideal punish moves can come later.
Don't forget you can see a demonstration of the move complete with input timing by hitting a button on the movelist!
Edit: once you want to look up stuff I usually try to find a character forum and a "bread and butter" or "top 10 essential moves for x" thread. Watching people debate relative merits of moves let's me understand the merits and use beyond a simple list of properties.
Just revert the document to a previous revision. File -> See Revision History in the upper left.
I already got rid of the hate message & restored the old table.
LordKasual
Banned
This is so easy to learn once you can visualize what it's inferring, i promise you. Once you do, you can read it and know exactly what it means without even thinking about it. And no, you don't need to study anything. At least, when you understand it, the properties of the moves in question will be easy to memorize because they'll start feeling almost intrinsic. (I don't know why, but just trust me on this.)
Startup = How long before this move comes out.
- This is important only relative to other moves, never on its own
- In Tekken, i believe the fastest jab comes out in 10 frames. So a 10f startup is going to beat anything with higher startup frames.
- This is all about reference.
- There are basically 2 modes to operate in. Whether you have "Advantage" (+)or "Disadvantage"(-).
- When you have "advantage" you can basically subtract the (+) number from the startup of your next move. (Faster is always more advantageous) At "disadvantage", you add the (-) number to the startup of your next attack. (slower is always more disadvantageous)
- So basically, on Advantage, your next move effectively comes out (+X) many frames faster. On Disadvantage, your next move comes out (-x) frames slower.
Examples (Consider both opponents at point blank range so nothing misses)
1) You throw out a 15f startup kick. --> Your opponent throws out a 10f startup jab.
= You get hit, because his attack connected 5 frames faster than yours.
2) You make your opponent block an attack that is (+2) on block, which means you have (+2) advantage. --> You throw out a 15f(-2) startup kick. ---> your Opponent throws out a 10f startup jab.
= You get hit, because your opponent's jab connected 3 frames faster than yours.
3) You make your opponent block an attack that is (+6) on block ---> You throw out a 15f(-6) frame kick attack ---> Your opponent throws out a 10f startup jab
= Your opponent gets hit, because your attack connected 1 frame faster than his.
It probably sounds complicated still right now. But I promise, if someone just sat you down with a controller and physically demonstrated this concept to you, it would make sense really fast.
The only real complicated part about frame data is learning the properties of your opponents moves...most typically advantage/disadvantage on block.
If an opponent keeps catching you with an attack that feels oppressive ("He shouldn't be able to spam that!"), then most of the time, a peek at the frame data will reveal the strength/weaknesses of said attack, and make it easier for you to work around it and see why you were getting hit.
https://www.youtube.com/user/AvoidingthePuddle
https://www.youtube.com/user/LevelUpYourGame
http://www.avoidingthepuddle.com/ttt2-guides/
Just keep in mind that wakeup system has changed in Tekken 7.
The Omega Man
Member
So guys I played a lot of Tekken 3 and TTT back in the day, but never really played most of the sequels after that. Do I have to relearn everything for Tekken 7 or is any of my ancient Tekken knowledge is still useful? will my muscle memory from these games come to aid me? I used to be good with the Mishimas, Lei and King. Could consistently pull off the EWGF that hit mid.
MikeBreezy92
Member
I mean move properties have changed a bit over the years but legit legacy skills still apply in Tekken for those older characters
Tekken is a good game for legacy skills
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Thank you so much!
Cindi Mayweather
Member
You're over explaining, breh.
All they gotta know is that the fastest regular moves in the game are jabs which are 10 frames. From there you look at other moves start up times. The closer to 10 that move is, the better it is.
Then you look at what the frame data is on block. Let's use 0 as a base number for block. The closer to 0 the better that move on block is. If it's > than 0 then it's advantage on block and might be something you wanna use a poke permitting the correct circumstances because it's harder to punish on block. If it's < than 0 then look at how close to zero it is. If it's -4 on block, it's not that bad. If a move is > than -9 using it is suicide so you just note the moves that are less than -9 on block but also are close to 10 frame startup.
Easy. You can pare that move list down in just a few minutes. It's a basic process of elimination. Anything else is an over explanation.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
So I won't be using the thread as much for Tekken because I've got a local group I'm cool with and some nice ass guy has taken me under his wing. However, we need to restructure the thread so it feels more inclusive towards other types of fighters. The aforementioned table of players is only for SFV. We need one for all games. So I'm considering making a new one altogether and thinking of how we gonna do this.
In the mean time I've been given some homework on how to learn my character to prep for Tekken 7 release. Right now, without the game, is the research phase. The goal is to answer the following questions before game release: What are my characters top 10 moves and their frame data? What are her BNBs?
I've paired the list of Katarina's top 10 moves to:
1. 111
2. 444 and 4444
3. 112
4. F+2
5. D+3,4
6. D/f+1
7. D/f+2,4 (tail spin)
8. U/F+4,4,4 and U/F+4,4,4,4
9. f,F+2
10. WS+1
I'm still not sure about number 7. Any additions or corrections would be great. I tried to keep it to better than -9 on block with not too high startup. I'm on mobile so I can't exactly check the moves right now and test their ranges on YouTube, but this is what I got from the frame data.
Number 7 is 17 start up. I'm not sure about it. Seems slow but it's +1 on block.
In the mean time I've been given some homework on how to learn my character to prep for Tekken 7 release. Right now, without the game, is the research phase. The goal is to answer the following questions before game release: What are my characters top 10 moves and their frame data? What are her BNBs?
I've paired the list of Katarina's top 10 moves to:
1. 111
2. 444 and 4444
3. 112
4. F+2
5. D+3,4
6. D/f+1
7. D/f+2,4 (tail spin)
8. U/F+4,4,4 and U/F+4,4,4,4
9. f,F+2
10. WS+1
I'm still not sure about number 7. Any additions or corrections would be great. I tried to keep it to better than -9 on block with not too high startup. I'm on mobile so I can't exactly check the moves right now and test their ranges on YouTube, but this is what I got from the frame data.
Number 7 is 17 start up. I'm not sure about it. Seems slow but it's +1 on block.
ShinMaruku
Member
The hate you have for Ibooty proves your words false.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Revised list after watching the move list and comparing my picks. Looking pretty good.
1. u/b+4 (knockdown)
2. 4 (launcher)
3. d/b+3 (knockdown)
4. f+2
5. d+3 (poke)
6. d/f+1 (poke)
7. d/f+4 (counter strike/poke)
8. 4,4,4
9. d/b+3+4 (unblockable)
10. u/f+4,4
BNB: 1, 2, 4, 4, 4, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3
Just need the game now.
1. u/b+4 (knockdown)
2. 4 (launcher)
3. d/b+3 (knockdown)
4. f+2
5. d+3 (poke)
6. d/f+1 (poke)
7. d/f+4 (counter strike/poke)
8. 4,4,4
9. d/b+3+4 (unblockable)
10. u/f+4,4
BNB: 1, 2, 4, 4, 4, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3
Just need the game now.
SquirrelSoup
Member
http://cephiria.blogspot.nl/2017/05/tekken-7-frame-data-for-new-players_27.html
I wrote that followup about frame data for new players, explaining frame advantage.
It ended up pretty long so i added a TLDR at the top.
I wrote that followup about frame data for new players, explaining frame advantage.
It ended up pretty long so i added a TLDR at the top.
I started injustice 2 and did chose Green Arrow as my first char. I can pull off the combos and can juggle a bit but playing a match against the CPU on the two highest levels really destroyed me. I get cornered and juggled all the time without a real chance to get out of it. I figured I can air dash out of it but get in the same situation pretty fast again.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Another great write up.
How do you like my move picks? I've settled on these and some of them aren't too safe, but have good range and good properties. Should I add her hopkick to the mix?
Her d+3 is 0 advantage on hit. Might toss it. That could get blown up but it seems a solid poke. Seems a prime candidate for move you wanna space out and use infrequently. Get in, use d+3, get out and don't engage and whiff punish.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
To show how useful knowing frames is, watch this match. Round 1 Katarina is about to get bopped and Heihachi is going in, but she throws out a jab (10 frames as established), gets the win, beating Hei-chan's next move.
http://youtu.be/89tRf_jhrUM
http://youtu.be/89tRf_jhrUM
I used to be a pretty good fight gamer, but I fell off WAAY back in the day. Tekken Tag on the OG 'Station was the last game I dedicated serious hours a day on. I'd love to get back to decent, but my old 46 year old fingers don't quite work the same, and due to family and work, I don't have the same ability to practice on it for hours at a time.
I'm going to jump back in with either Tekken or Injustice. Which is less frustrating? Thanks! Great thread!
I'm going to jump back in with either Tekken or Injustice. Which is less frustrating? Thanks! Great thread!
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Great thing about fgs is 30 minutes to one hour a day is enough. Contrary to popular belief you don't have to dedicate your life to fgs. Sure, to be the best you'll have to rack in some hours. But being decent won't require too much time away from the fam and can be your nightly thing. Even better, you can do it with your kids since they're the few games that have local play anymore. Win-win. Best genre.
If you're going to pick between Injustice and Tekken and frustration is an issue, I might go with Injustice.
And thanks for the compliments.
If you're going to pick between Injustice and Tekken and frustration is an issue, I might go with Injustice.
And thanks for the compliments.
SquirrelSoup
Member
Merci~
Hmm, well her unblockable definitely doesn't have a place on such a list.
I'd say something like...
- 1,1,1 or 1,1,2 fastest thing you have, for up close and for stringy pressure
- d/f+1 fast mid, good range, has followups to keep people from challenging you after, go to poke. b+1 can substitute and it looks almost the same but has different followups so that's really good to make people unsure about what's happening.
- d/f+4 main CH tool
- 4 or 4,4,4 other CH tool, it's a high but it's fast. Iirc you can combo even after three hits if the first one CHs? That's why it's there. If you can't, just use 4.
- d/f+2,4 or d/f+2,2 seems like a good mid range thing
- d+1 also a very good mid range poke, you get a free u/b+4 followup on CH i think.
- u/f+4,4 hopkick, it lowcrushes and is her fastest launcher, is your dangerous mid for mixups too
- d/b+4 your super dangerous low launcher. Death on block but it tells people they have to look out for lows. Also high crushes. Can use d+3,3 or d+3,4 as a safer option if you don't like dying. But they also won't be dying which doesn't really condition them to low block as much.
- f, f+4 main homing move, good range too
- f, f+3 safe advancing mid, long range tool
That's 10. I'd say add Harrier (f+4 or from certain moves) after this, it's one of the things that defines the character. High-risk but fairly legit mixups from pretty far ranges. You can do Harrier~u/f+3 to get her f,f+3 which is super good.
So that's.. not super different from what you had i guess?
I don't know what this is btw. Is it supposed to be her 10 string? Either way, forget about it.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
What are unblockables for? Since I'm new to Tekken I figured it was worth having on the list because I'm not sure of its use despite it being a 60 (!!!) frame start up.
Why are 10 strings not a bnb?
Good edits and suggestions.
Why are 10 strings not a bnb?
Good edits and suggestions.
SquirrelSoup
Member
Unblockables are just too slow. Largely. Some characters (like King and Yoshimitsu and Bryan) have ones that are faster or have very good range so they're usable, but for most characters they're either unusable trash or something you use once in a blue moon when the opponent is on the ground and/or in the corner and hope they get up into it.
10 strings don't actually combo, only the later parts of them do and they're very unsafe on block and even on hit when stopped early. They're basically gimmicks that you can use to scrub some wins out, and the weaker your opponent the better it'll work.
I'd advise to learn real combos instead, ie. at least decent juggles off your launchers. (Go for reliability and consistency over absolute max damage at first)
(That said, learning all the 10 strings for all the characters is a lot of work so you can totally use one to pull out a surprise win even against experienced players. Occasionally. )
LordKasual
Banned
Well, they hurt like hell. They're pretty much reserved for when you've either:
a) got your opponent so shook that you know they're just going to stare at the animation and get hit, or
b) you put them into a position where they basically have to eat it. (rare)
Because they're always the same, don't naturally combo, and the opening always appears in the same place.
If the opponent sees it coming, you're just going to get low parried or worse. At a certain level, everyone is going to know your 10-hit string.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Gotcha. I'll pick three bnbs. Shouldn't take too long. Plenty of Katarina footage.
Gotcha. Doesn't seem like an actual bnb and her unblockable seems so pointless.
LordKasual
Banned
Unblockables are...yeah, pretty pointless, but like alot of moves, they fill a niche. They're hard to land...but if you land one, the effect it has on your opponent can be pretty great.
And i'm talking morale, not damage lol
Edit:
Truthfully, alot of attacks/strings in Tekken are going to feel useless if you judge them purely off their frame data. But knowing how / when to use them to condition / test your opponent is why I love Tekken so much as a fighting game.
Then, of course, there are other factors, like blockpush, range, tracking, and property crushes that are to be taken into consideration.
LordKasual
Banned
Faaaaaaaaar more options for the person on the ground compared to SF. For one, the game doesn't even force you to get up.
in fact, this is kind of a hard question to answer lol. Depending on the situation, you may actually have to respect the person's wakeup.
SquirrelSoup
Member
Umm. Historically oki is a lot stronger in Tekken. The defender has -a lot- of options from the ground including some attacks, but he can get hit while on the ground and severely murdered during the startup of those options.
In T7 they buffed the ground options, most notably adding a fairly fast and safe back scoot and buffing spring kick a lot.
As the attacker, you either try to hit them once while on the ground (and then they usually get to stand up relatively safely, though you sometimes still get a mixup after), or you try to anticipate their choice and truly maul them for it. Like, if you think they're going to do the (annoying) getup low kick, you can hopkick them for it and get a full combo.
The new back scoot kinda gets people out of the blender pretty well but i think long ranged lows might do well against that (will need to test once it's out), and either way they're moving toward the wall which is good for you.
Edit: But as LordKasual said, it's tough dealing with all the options. Some of them really suck to run into as well. Sometimes it's a lot better to back off and try to whiff punish their get up stuff.
Edit2: Btw you can definitely choose to end combos in a way that gives you more advantage/some kind of disgusting oki setup. You usually sacrifice guaranteed damage to do this.
GurgleBot20
Member
Had a fun time losing at USF4 all morning. Got to watch my 50BP that I got from my one victory turn into 0.
I'd advise Tekken. Since you already had history with Tekken.
Injustice can be very frustating due to partially extreme playstyles and expected to get a lot of balance patches. Making the experience with characters less stable.
Doesn't Asuka have a unblockable setup on wall? I think i saw it hit twice in tournament setting. But yeah, I saw unblockables close to never used in tournament play.
On topic of combos. I'd recommend things like combos off jab airborne hit, launchers, counterhit launchers and also remembering screw moves.
Combos are tools to maximize the opportunities, but obviously also have to get to do the combo first.
first dollar is always the hardest to earn
SquirrelSoup
Member
She does, her unblockable hits mid now so there's some use. I think staying down avoids it in any case.
Lili has a new mid homing unblockable too that can be used in a similar way, it looks like.