lvl99 Pixel
Member
i believe you mean up throw, and no its not generic, at least in Project M and smash 4
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RTTP: The Pokemon...Moves. All 720, and counting.
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i believe you mean up throw, and no its not generic, at least in Project M and smash 4
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
whoops yeah up throw
in 4 it was the same as Kirby and MK's, honestly needs the "spin around" to make it a perfect seismic toss
lvl99 Pixel
Member
Kirby and Metaknights throws are so high they leave the screen, but if that makes it the same and generic *shrug*
its probably meant to look like seismic toss without having a long animation
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
they could have included it, make him invincible while dealing damage to nearby enemies too
but it's Charizard, we all know Charizard in Smash 4 is... well... Charizard.
Until recently the developers of various Nintendo games had seemingly been fairly adament about keeping elements from adaptations out of the games, but they've loosened up on that a lot lately. Even the recent Kirby games have had anime references in them.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Smash is the oddball, though, since the Pokemon in Smash have always leaned very heavily on the anime.
On that note, Mewtwo still doesn't have Shadow Ball in his level up learn pool, despite it being pretty much his most iconic attack from the movie and Smash Bros (and also Pokken).
Elaugaufein
Member
I doubt he will. The games don't tend to add stuff from the enemy that would thematic problems to the way move pools usually work eg Pikachu doesn't learn Iron Tail despite it being part of its anime set for ages.
Again, Electric being super effective on Water is based on the harm electricity poses to organisms in the water. Just like Poison. Electricity is not causing any harm to the water itself.
Poison also makes sense from a gameplay perspective; Poison is only super effective against 2 types and has traditionally been a poor attacking type. Granted, Poison's already in a decent place compared to Bug, Ice, or Rock, but Ice is resisted by Water and Bug and Rock don't make any sense.
Speaking of Bug, who the fuck at Gamefreak thought Fairy should resist Bug?
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I knew you'd say that hence why I made the second statement. Water Pokemon has Arceus-knows source of water in them that they can squirt out to wash away pollution.
I wish Bug resist Poison since bugs are known for surviving shit like that. Anyway Poison itself is finnicky. Steel is immune to it yet the concept of corrosion is considered Poison.
Sprites and such have been using insects as mounts, etc. They even kill them for decoration, furniture, etc. Just go look at Okami for a visual example. Hell if we go logically, Fairy should also be super effective against Bug.
The concept of dilution is using far more water than whatever you're diluting. It's like saying Fire should beat Water because enough heat turns water to steam. And you know what happens when you "wash away" pollution with water? You get polluted water. Which you have to dilute or else it's a problem for wherever you put that polluted water.
This entire conversation feels like you're being contrarian for the sake of it. People asked what would be a good weakness for Water. Poison is the most intuitive neutral matchup that could be turned into a weakness because pollution poses a clear real life danger to aquatic life, and a clear danger to drinking water. That's what type matchups are supposed to be: Intuitive. Fire beats Grass because plants are generally thought of as kindling. "Oh but what about prairie grass and serotinous pine cones that thrive after forest fires?" Those don't matter because intuitively, fire burns grass.
If you have a better suggestion for an intuitive Water type weakness, provide it.
There are literally Fairy type Pokemon using plants for decoration and clothing. Do you see Fairy resisting Grass?
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
Today it's all Grass-type moves...well, it should've been.
Mega Drain - Grass [Special]
40/15PP/100%
A nutrient-draining attack. The user's HP is restored by half the damage taken by the target.
The "upgraded" version of Absorb, Mega Drain functions the same way except it has 40BP---maybe not that deserving of having the name "Mega" in it (it's the same in Japan), but a bit more power means a bit more HP you'll regain.
In Generation I Erika gave it out as a TM, and as someone pointed out when I said Bubble Beam oddly enough wasn't learned naturally by any Pokemon in Generation I all the Gym Leader TMs were TM-exclusive moves upon their introduction. As a TM in Generation I, and Generation I only, it was learnable by most Grass, Bug, and Poison-type Pokemon, and to this day the majority of Pokemon who carry it fall into one of those Types. Oddly enough though Oddish could learn its basic variant, Absorb, naturally in Generation I it didn't get Mega Drain added to its natural moveset till Generation IV. Tangela and Kabuto, the other Gen 1 Absorb Pokemon, got it as soon as Generation II hit. Oh, and unlike Absorb, the buff to Leech Life didn't affect the distribution of Mega Drain.
Leech Seed - Grass [Status]
10PP/90%
A seed is planted on the target. It steals some HP from the target every turn.
If powered up by a Grassium Z into Z-Leech Seed, all of the user's lowered stats are reset.
The Japanese name of this attack is a bit more specific, "Mistletoe Seed", Mistletoe being a parasitic plant that attaches itself to other plants and grows using their nutrients and moisture---though since Generation I Grass-type Pokemon have been immune to this attack. The exception to this occurs if a Pokemon used Baton Pass and switches to a Grass-type Pokemon, who will then have the Leech Seed effect in place.
Leech Seed is basically a combination of Absorb and poison, damaging the opponent at the end of each turn (originally 1/16, now 1/8) and restoring that damage to the opponent---it doesn't even have to be the user of Leech Seed, whichever Pokemon is in the position the Leech Seed user was in will receive the health. Leech Seed can be removed by simply switching out, or utilizing Rapid Spin, but switching out leaves you wide open for the opponent to counter you. It seems Prankster Whimsicott, who can use this move as soon as it enters and then hide behind a Substitute on the next turn, is a fairly annoying Pokemon that makes use of this. Like a lot of moves Generation I's version of Leech Seed had a few quirks, the most interesting being that if a Pokemon was both seeded by Leech Seed and under the effect of Toxic, both which use the same formula to calculate damage, Leech Seed's damage would then equal Toxic which becomes stronger each turn. This combination, probably not intentional, was removed in Generation II.
Leech Seed was exclusive to Grass-type Pokemon, even some based on non-plants like Shroomish, until Generation VII where the Fairy-type Comfey and the Steel/Flying Celesteela both gained it. But this isn't too odd as Comfey carries flowers with it almost like part of its body, and Celesteela is a giant mechanical-bamboo rocket ship so they're "unofficial" Grass-type Pokemon you could say. In the anime, there have been instances were Leech Seed affected Grass-type Pokemon, though XY seemed to reach an interesting middleground---one episode had Bulbasaur, Charmander, and Squirtle binded by Leech Seed, but while the latter two had the vines they were entangled in glowing to show their energy was being extracted Bulbasaur's was not, implying it was trapped but wasn't having its energy drained like the other two. It was a nice little attention to detail.
Growth - Normal [Status]
20PP
The user's body grows all at once, raising the Attack and Sp. Atk stats.
If powered up by a Normalium Z into Z-Growth, the user's Special Attack stat raises one additional stage.
Despite being a Normal-type move, Growth is more or less a Grass-type move in every way---it benefited Grass-type Pokemon back when the Type was always Special by raising the Special (later Special Attack) of a Pokemon who uses it, it can be comboed with many Grass-type moves in Pokemon Contests, it can now be boosted in usefulness when sunlight is in effect, its animations are usually "grassy" involving the color green, and it's almost exclusive to Grass-type Pokemon. Comfey, Illumise and Numel are the only non-Grass users, and Comfey once more is a pseudo-Grass Pokemon. I don't really get why Illumise and Numel learn it as an Egg Move, though. It seems the intent of the move is to have the Pokemon grow like a plant, not randomly getting larger like Giant Man can, so it's weird they kept it Normal all this time. Changing it to Grass wouldn't matter since self-status moves don't take Type into account typically, but it sure would make a lot of sense.
Growth's gotten buffed quite a bit over the years. It only boosted Special Attack in Generation II, but Generation V had it increase Attack as well allowing physical Grass-type Pokemon to make use of it. And if you're in sunlight in Generation V and up it sharply boosts both, so pairing a Grass-type Pokemon with Growth with a Sunny Day/Drought User can make quite the difference. I imagine if the move found its way to more non-Grass Type Pokemon who lack good boosting moves it might gain more popularity, but it doesn't seem to get much use currently outside the "weather wars". Its PP was reduced from 40 to 20 recently, but in a serious battle that's more than enough since you'll probably only end up boosting once or twice.
This move has only appeared once in the show as far as I can tell, used by a bunch of Grass-type Pokemon not to power themselves up but rather to transmit their energy into a dying tree---so, uh, not really anything like how it works in the games.
Razor Leaf - Grass [Physical]
55/25PP/95%
Sharp-edged leaves are launched to slash at the opposing Pokémon. Critical hits land more easily.
Introduced in Generation I, Razor Leaf was arguably the best Grass-type move in the game. While it didn't have the same amount of power as some other Grass-type moves, it had no drawbacks to it and could pull off a critical hit easier as well. Though Vine Whip is a fairly popular move, Razor Leaf is what I consider personally the most iconic Grass-type move. Nowadays it isn't anything special, decent for in-game use as an early Grass STAB, but that's alright---not every move needs to become insanely powerful. It's also one of the few Gen I moves I've covered which hasn't changed whatsoever since its introduction, besides its wider range in Double and Triple Battles. Not only was Razor Leaf stronger than Vine Whip, in Generation I it had 15 more PP than it as well which was odd.
Razor Leaf is limited to Grass-type Pokemon, the only exception being Flabebe but like Comfey it's basically a Grass-type Pokemon, also carrying a flower with it. In Generation I only Bulbasaur and Bellsprout learned it, and at fairly high levels, but it was introduced to more Pokemon in Generation II, including Chikorita who got it as early as Level 8. Many more Pokemon learn it now, though oddly enough among them Bulbasaur and Bellsprout still learn the move relatively higher than most despite it no longer being the top Grass-type attack around. And I don't know why I remember this, but the official Pokemon Colosseum Nintendo Player's Guide incorrectly claims Bayleaf can learn a move called "Leaf Cutter", which is Razor Leaf's original attack. I think the localized version works better here.
By the way, there's a somewhat obscure mechanic in X&Y, and only X&Y, where certain moves can hit objects in the background and drop items---you've ever noticed some really tall grass in the background of early Route battles? You can actually cut it with Razor Leaf and score one of the "Herb" items.
Solar Beam - Grass [Special]
120/10PP/100%
In this two-turn attack, the user gathers light, then blasts a bundled beam on the next turn.
When it came to attacks, as in those that did damage, Grass kind of lost out among the Starter Types originally with no really solid moves to their name like Flamethrower and Surf, and this continued for quite a while---I think basically till Generation IV? Instead Grass-type Pokemon had to put up with Solar Beam, an impressive attack going by its 120BP but with a major flaw as it took two turns to use. And this wasn't a turn to use it, and then a turn to recharge, rather it was the opposite of Hyper Beam, basically meaning you'd take twice as long as that attack to actually deal damage. And there was no glitch to get around this, you always had to charge. Originally in Generation I if you were interrupted after charging the attack would still go through the next time you could act, though now if you're interrupted you have to charge all over again.
Generation II introduced one of Pokemon's first and most notable combos however through the Sunny Day + Solar Beam combination, allowing Solar Beam to fire off at full strength without requiring a charging turn. This wasn't all that useful originally though as using Sunny Day required a turn, and it didn't do much back then beyond powering Solar Beam, but as time went on and sunlight became more important, with Pokemon who had Abilities to summon sunlight or benefit from it, Solar Beam got good. There are more Grass-type attacks nowadays which provide reliability and aren't dependent on the weather, as any other weather beyond sun will weaken Solar Beam, but with the right team Solar Beam can be useful. You probably won't be carrying it with you much in the main game, however, as your in-game team probably won't be built around Sunny Day and thus Solar Beam will become more of a burden.
Though Solar Beam is technically a Grass-type move, it stretches the imagination a bit---because it's really a giant burst of sun energy, and thus really shouldn't work the same in terms of Type matchups like other Grass-type attacks do, but it does. For example you could see such a move completely decimating a Bug-type or Ice-type Pokemon, but, nah, it works the same as if you were tossing leaves at 'em. Anyway while still popular among Grass-type Pokemon, you have quite a few non-Grass Pokemon with a relation to the sun who get it such as Groudon, Solrock, and Solgaleo, but the weirdest user is probably Cryogonal who is an Ice-type. I guess since he's reflective he can channel light or something like that? It's been a TM since Generation I, and the amount of Pokemon who learn it through that method is ever expanding and pretty bizarre. Beedrill? Slakoth? Garbodor? Who knows, I guess if most of these Pokemon can fire off a Hyper Beam a Solar Beam isn't too far-fetched.
Mega Drain - Grass [Special]
40/15PP/100%
A nutrient-draining attack. The user's HP is restored by half the damage taken by the target.
The "upgraded" version of Absorb, Mega Drain functions the same way except it has 40BP---maybe not that deserving of having the name "Mega" in it (it's the same in Japan), but a bit more power means a bit more HP you'll regain.
In Generation I Erika gave it out as a TM, and as someone pointed out when I said Bubble Beam oddly enough wasn't learned naturally by any Pokemon in Generation I all the Gym Leader TMs were TM-exclusive moves upon their introduction. As a TM in Generation I, and Generation I only, it was learnable by most Grass, Bug, and Poison-type Pokemon, and to this day the majority of Pokemon who carry it fall into one of those Types. Oddly enough though Oddish could learn its basic variant, Absorb, naturally in Generation I it didn't get Mega Drain added to its natural moveset till Generation IV. Tangela and Kabuto, the other Gen 1 Absorb Pokemon, got it as soon as Generation II hit. Oh, and unlike Absorb, the buff to Leech Life didn't affect the distribution of Mega Drain.
Leech Seed - Grass [Status]
10PP/90%
A seed is planted on the target. It steals some HP from the target every turn.
If powered up by a Grassium Z into Z-Leech Seed, all of the user's lowered stats are reset.
The Japanese name of this attack is a bit more specific, "Mistletoe Seed", Mistletoe being a parasitic plant that attaches itself to other plants and grows using their nutrients and moisture---though since Generation I Grass-type Pokemon have been immune to this attack. The exception to this occurs if a Pokemon used Baton Pass and switches to a Grass-type Pokemon, who will then have the Leech Seed effect in place.
Leech Seed is basically a combination of Absorb and poison, damaging the opponent at the end of each turn (originally 1/16, now 1/8) and restoring that damage to the opponent---it doesn't even have to be the user of Leech Seed, whichever Pokemon is in the position the Leech Seed user was in will receive the health. Leech Seed can be removed by simply switching out, or utilizing Rapid Spin, but switching out leaves you wide open for the opponent to counter you. It seems Prankster Whimsicott, who can use this move as soon as it enters and then hide behind a Substitute on the next turn, is a fairly annoying Pokemon that makes use of this. Like a lot of moves Generation I's version of Leech Seed had a few quirks, the most interesting being that if a Pokemon was both seeded by Leech Seed and under the effect of Toxic, both which use the same formula to calculate damage, Leech Seed's damage would then equal Toxic which becomes stronger each turn. This combination, probably not intentional, was removed in Generation II.
Leech Seed was exclusive to Grass-type Pokemon, even some based on non-plants like Shroomish, until Generation VII where the Fairy-type Comfey and the Steel/Flying Celesteela both gained it. But this isn't too odd as Comfey carries flowers with it almost like part of its body, and Celesteela is a giant mechanical-bamboo rocket ship so they're "unofficial" Grass-type Pokemon you could say. In the anime, there have been instances were Leech Seed affected Grass-type Pokemon, though XY seemed to reach an interesting middleground---one episode had Bulbasaur, Charmander, and Squirtle binded by Leech Seed, but while the latter two had the vines they were entangled in glowing to show their energy was being extracted Bulbasaur's was not, implying it was trapped but wasn't having its energy drained like the other two. It was a nice little attention to detail.
Growth - Normal [Status]
20PP
The user's body grows all at once, raising the Attack and Sp. Atk stats.
If powered up by a Normalium Z into Z-Growth, the user's Special Attack stat raises one additional stage.
Despite being a Normal-type move, Growth is more or less a Grass-type move in every way---it benefited Grass-type Pokemon back when the Type was always Special by raising the Special (later Special Attack) of a Pokemon who uses it, it can be comboed with many Grass-type moves in Pokemon Contests, it can now be boosted in usefulness when sunlight is in effect, its animations are usually "grassy" involving the color green, and it's almost exclusive to Grass-type Pokemon. Comfey, Illumise and Numel are the only non-Grass users, and Comfey once more is a pseudo-Grass Pokemon. I don't really get why Illumise and Numel learn it as an Egg Move, though. It seems the intent of the move is to have the Pokemon grow like a plant, not randomly getting larger like Giant Man can, so it's weird they kept it Normal all this time. Changing it to Grass wouldn't matter since self-status moves don't take Type into account typically, but it sure would make a lot of sense.
Growth's gotten buffed quite a bit over the years. It only boosted Special Attack in Generation II, but Generation V had it increase Attack as well allowing physical Grass-type Pokemon to make use of it. And if you're in sunlight in Generation V and up it sharply boosts both, so pairing a Grass-type Pokemon with Growth with a Sunny Day/Drought User can make quite the difference. I imagine if the move found its way to more non-Grass Type Pokemon who lack good boosting moves it might gain more popularity, but it doesn't seem to get much use currently outside the "weather wars". Its PP was reduced from 40 to 20 recently, but in a serious battle that's more than enough since you'll probably only end up boosting once or twice.
This move has only appeared once in the show as far as I can tell, used by a bunch of Grass-type Pokemon not to power themselves up but rather to transmit their energy into a dying tree---so, uh, not really anything like how it works in the games.
Razor Leaf - Grass [Physical]
55/25PP/95%
Sharp-edged leaves are launched to slash at the opposing Pokémon. Critical hits land more easily.
Introduced in Generation I, Razor Leaf was arguably the best Grass-type move in the game. While it didn't have the same amount of power as some other Grass-type moves, it had no drawbacks to it and could pull off a critical hit easier as well. Though Vine Whip is a fairly popular move, Razor Leaf is what I consider personally the most iconic Grass-type move. Nowadays it isn't anything special, decent for in-game use as an early Grass STAB, but that's alright---not every move needs to become insanely powerful. It's also one of the few Gen I moves I've covered which hasn't changed whatsoever since its introduction, besides its wider range in Double and Triple Battles. Not only was Razor Leaf stronger than Vine Whip, in Generation I it had 15 more PP than it as well which was odd.
Razor Leaf is limited to Grass-type Pokemon, the only exception being Flabebe but like Comfey it's basically a Grass-type Pokemon, also carrying a flower with it. In Generation I only Bulbasaur and Bellsprout learned it, and at fairly high levels, but it was introduced to more Pokemon in Generation II, including Chikorita who got it as early as Level 8. Many more Pokemon learn it now, though oddly enough among them Bulbasaur and Bellsprout still learn the move relatively higher than most despite it no longer being the top Grass-type attack around. And I don't know why I remember this, but the official Pokemon Colosseum Nintendo Player's Guide incorrectly claims Bayleaf can learn a move called "Leaf Cutter", which is Razor Leaf's original attack. I think the localized version works better here.
By the way, there's a somewhat obscure mechanic in X&Y, and only X&Y, where certain moves can hit objects in the background and drop items---you've ever noticed some really tall grass in the background of early Route battles? You can actually cut it with Razor Leaf and score one of the "Herb" items.
Solar Beam - Grass [Special]
120/10PP/100%
In this two-turn attack, the user gathers light, then blasts a bundled beam on the next turn.
When it came to attacks, as in those that did damage, Grass kind of lost out among the Starter Types originally with no really solid moves to their name like Flamethrower and Surf, and this continued for quite a while---I think basically till Generation IV? Instead Grass-type Pokemon had to put up with Solar Beam, an impressive attack going by its 120BP but with a major flaw as it took two turns to use. And this wasn't a turn to use it, and then a turn to recharge, rather it was the opposite of Hyper Beam, basically meaning you'd take twice as long as that attack to actually deal damage. And there was no glitch to get around this, you always had to charge. Originally in Generation I if you were interrupted after charging the attack would still go through the next time you could act, though now if you're interrupted you have to charge all over again.
Generation II introduced one of Pokemon's first and most notable combos however through the Sunny Day + Solar Beam combination, allowing Solar Beam to fire off at full strength without requiring a charging turn. This wasn't all that useful originally though as using Sunny Day required a turn, and it didn't do much back then beyond powering Solar Beam, but as time went on and sunlight became more important, with Pokemon who had Abilities to summon sunlight or benefit from it, Solar Beam got good. There are more Grass-type attacks nowadays which provide reliability and aren't dependent on the weather, as any other weather beyond sun will weaken Solar Beam, but with the right team Solar Beam can be useful. You probably won't be carrying it with you much in the main game, however, as your in-game team probably won't be built around Sunny Day and thus Solar Beam will become more of a burden.
Though Solar Beam is technically a Grass-type move, it stretches the imagination a bit---because it's really a giant burst of sun energy, and thus really shouldn't work the same in terms of Type matchups like other Grass-type attacks do, but it does. For example you could see such a move completely decimating a Bug-type or Ice-type Pokemon, but, nah, it works the same as if you were tossing leaves at 'em. Anyway while still popular among Grass-type Pokemon, you have quite a few non-Grass Pokemon with a relation to the sun who get it such as Groudon, Solrock, and Solgaleo, but the weirdest user is probably Cryogonal who is an Ice-type. I guess since he's reflective he can channel light or something like that? It's been a TM since Generation I, and the amount of Pokemon who learn it through that method is ever expanding and pretty bizarre. Beedrill? Slakoth? Garbodor? Who knows, I guess if most of these Pokemon can fire off a Hyper Beam a Solar Beam isn't too far-fetched.
Holy shit, you learn something new every day.
This talk about Water needing more weakness' is absolutely disgusting. Water is amazing and slapping Ice Beam on them to remove one of their two weakness' is so satisfying.
Anyway, Leech Seed is a move I absolutely love using in-game. It is one of those moves (like the Elemental Punches) that I like to give to my Pokemon whenever I am breeding.
Anyway, Leech Seed is a move I absolutely love using in-game. It is one of those moves (like the Elemental Punches) that I like to give to my Pokemon whenever I am breeding.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
Back when I was little I thought Leech Seed was a sucky move. It wasn't until I got back into Pokemon and played on Showdown that I found out that the move is actually beast.
I often forget that Razor Leaf is a physical attack. It seems like it should be a special move. It's weird.
I often forget that Razor Leaf is a physical attack. It seems like it should be a special move. It's weird.
Another weird user of Solarbeam is Lapras, who only gets it via TM in Gen 1 and has to be transferred over,
I'm glad lots of fire types get solarbeam. Solarbeam Mega Charizard Y is a lot of fun. It also has some pretty great animations, such as PBR's orbital cannon animation, or XY's Spirit-Bomb-Into-Laser animation.
I'm glad lots of fire types get solarbeam. Solarbeam Mega Charizard Y is a lot of fun. It also has some pretty great animations, such as PBR's orbital cannon animation, or XY's Spirit-Bomb-Into-Laser animation.
unknownstranger
Member
Gen 7 made Grassium-Z Solar Beam really popular on a lot of Fire types that lure Water's in.
Leech Seed Celesteela is arguably the most annoying Pokémon to play against in OU.
Leech Seed Celesteela is arguably the most annoying Pokémon to play against in OU.
TriggerShy
Member
Mega Drain
Leech Seed
Growth
Razor Leaf
Solar Beam
Leech Seed
Growth
Razor Leaf
Solar Beam
This thread is just reminding how bad Grass Types have it and how much Gamefreak seemingly hates the type while continuously giving buffs to fire types and water types have always been one of the best types.
It sucks cuz I love grass but the treatment it receives as one of the starters is horrible, and has been since gen 1.
If Fire is offensive (and Fire is great defensively too with 6 resistances wtf) and Water is defensive, then I guess Grass was supposed to be the annoyer/stalling/status inducing type? That's what I can imagine they were going through, but that hardly qualifies them for all the weaknesses and being resisted so badly.
Also Razor Leaf was one of my fave moves. I'll always associate it with Chikorita and the awesome gen 2 animation.
It sucks cuz I love grass but the treatment it receives as one of the starters is horrible, and has been since gen 1.
If Fire is offensive (and Fire is great defensively too with 6 resistances wtf) and Water is defensive, then I guess Grass was supposed to be the annoyer/stalling/status inducing type? That's what I can imagine they were going through, but that hardly qualifies them for all the weaknesses and being resisted so badly.
Also Razor Leaf was one of my fave moves. I'll always associate it with Chikorita and the awesome gen 2 animation.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
Ooooh, I forgot how Cilan's Pansage turned it into a Genki Dama -> Kamehameha type of things.
TriggerShy
Member
Grass types have been getting a few buffs though; Leech Seed, Spore and Powder moves no longer effect them, they got Grassy Terrain which boosts Grass type moves, a physical version of Surf in Petal Blizzard, a Grass type Draco Meteor in Leaf Storm and most recently a physical Solar Beam in Solar Blade. I'd say Gamefreak is paying some attention to Grass types, but what do you have in mind when asking for buffs?
CelestialWolfZX
Member
Well as I have said in the past. Maybe not letting Water Types (One of the few types they are good against) have very easy access to Ice Type moves might have been a good starting point.
I'd ask for Ice to not be Super Effective against Ice, but man, Ice is the one type that is worse off than Grass in the game and taking anything further away from them will be rubbing salt in the wounds.
(Does grass really need 5 weaknesses though? It has 3 types it's good against like Water, even sharing beating Rock and Ground, but Water only has 2 weaknesses compared to the 5 Grass has).
Also when we get to Giga Drain, I'm going to post my disdain that it got buffed to 75 Base Power the same generation Roserade got Technician, denying me my Technician boosted Giga Drains of 90 Base Power, leaving like... magical leaf as the only good special grass move to give technician (Venoshock being 65 doesn't help either). All the whilst the other Grass Technician user of Breloom gets to run around with it's Technician boosted Mach Punches and Bullet Seed all day long.
I'm not asking for buffs. The type has issues ranging back to Gen 1 based in design.
I think a resistance to Fairy would've been nice. Fire didn't need another resistance. That would've given it equal resistances and weaknesses. It's also the type tied with the most resisted offenses (Bug was actually better off before Fairy).
TriggerShy
Member
Ah, so you were thinking about the type chart. I think if there was ever a chance for Grass and Ice to get new strengths and resists, it should have been Fairy. I am definitely with you on how fire didn't need another resistance (a part of me believes this was done to make Mega Charizard X more appealing). I do understand that having so many weaknesses hurts Grass, Ice, and Rock types, I just try too hard to think of ways they could be helped without confusing both newcomers and veterans, so it doesn't seem so simple sometimes. I get the impression that the original type chart was made for the player going through the game, rather than battling other players with Dragon meant to being this ultimate type that resists all three starter types (even though Psychic was also absurdly strong) and then came Dark and Steel that gave an immunity to Psychic and resistance to Dragon and Psychic respectively.
At the end of the day, Grass (Along with Bug, Ice, Rock, and to a lesser extent Normal and Poison) suffer primarily because of the type chart.
For example, a Grass type Draco Meteor isn't going to be as effective as a Dragon type Draco Meteor because Grass has a whopping 7 types resisting it. And you see this with the use of Draco Meteor in competitive play versus the use of Leaf Storm.
I wonder if Grass and Ice have a lot of weakness party due as some form of balancing them as Ice has the freeze status whereas Grass types tend to learn moves that deals with status and draining the foe's HP.
Same with Pikachu and Iron Tail, learnt it in the animé since Hoenn and as of Alola it still can't learn it via level up within the game.
Same with Pikachu and Iron Tail, learnt it in the animé since Hoenn and as of Alola it still can't learn it via level up within the game.
CelestialWolfZX
Member
It's weird then to see Electric and Fire not be balanced around the fact they have the Burn and Paralysis types mostly associated with them (Paralysis could be done with Stun Spore, but tell me, are you going to use 75% accurate Stun Spore on a limited range of Grass Types, or the 100% accurate (Back then) Thunder Wave that was a TM and was on a large coverage or pokemon? It's surprising how many pokemon in Gen 1 could get Thunder Wave (Slowbro of all things can learn it for example.)
Elaugaufein
Member
The grass draining moves are largely terrible though (Leech Seed being an exception). Only Giga Drain hits the effective >=90 BP competitive use sweet spot and it's still somewhat held back because it's better to do one thing well than two things poorly. And Grass types don't tend to have the broad bulk to setup properly (also official competitive play is generally anti-stall and that gets reflected in game because effective stall is boring to watch)
Fire types also benefit more from Sunny Day than most types do from Weather which is a knock to Water / Grass comparatively but Water is actually good. Fire type Solar Beam users were a thing on Sunny Day teams to clean up Water / Rock / Ground types.
unknownstranger
Member
A lot of Grass types get Chlorophyll which lets them sweep under sun. The problem is Grass is bad offensively and none of them have a decent secondary typing. Tsareena should have been Grass/Fighting and gotten Chlorophyll instead of Leaf Guard. Lurantis should have gotten it too so it could make better use of physical Solar Beam but Contrary might still be better anyways.
AKA Poison really sucks offensively, even after the Fairy type's introduction.
Elaugaufein
Member
The charge moves (both charge up and recovery) really need to be reassessed in comparison to modern moves like Boomburst too, it really makes Solar Blade look sad despite it being pretty much the best Charge move.
Boomburst is limited by super limited distribution and being Normal type (so no super effective coverage). I honestly am glad Gamefreak made it, Pokemon like Exploud and Wigglytuff deserve to be thrown a bone.
But yeah, I totally agree. People don't even use Hyper Beam in the single player because the drawback is so significant for the attack power.
unknownstranger
Member
Venusaur is the best Chlorophyll sweeper which says a lot on how bad most are. The only Chlorophyll user with a decent offensive typing is Shiftry.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Well at least there's Energy Ball, right?
Your stance assumes water isn't flowing though. These Pokemon release water through massive streams. It's not like they let the water sit in them.
It's not even contrarian - like this stance has been popular even before, for "type theory" building. I mean, if we're going intuitive we should negate Ground having no effect since it's not about "grounded", or that Grass should be weak to Electricity rather than resist.
And yes, Fairy should resist Grass too if we're going full hemlock dominion.
Your stance assumes water isn't flowing though. These Pokemon release water through massive streams. It's not like they let the water sit in them.
It's not even contrarian - like this stance has been popular even before, for "type theory" building. I mean, if we're going intuitive we should negate Ground having no effect since it's not about "grounded", or that Grass should be weak to Electricity rather than resist.
And yes, Fairy should resist Grass too if we're going full hemlock dominion.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Water + pollution = dead fish
That's pretty much as complex as weaknesses get. You're overthinking it, a lot.
Fire burns wood
Fire melts metal
Fire melts ice
Two birds with one stone
Honorable fighting techniques beat dishonest fighting techniques
Water puts out fire
Sand smothers fire
Telekenisis used against you makes it hard to punch stuff
Things that are creepy make it hard to focus
Dragons are the only thing powerful enough to harm other dragons
Rocks sink
Water and soil make the soil loose and weaker
Plants absorb water
Fairies do not like metal
Reptiles, aka Dragons, are cold blooded
Birds eat bugs
Birds eat seeds and fruit and burrow into trees
Bugs destroy crops
Bees hate smoke
Ice picks are made of metal
Fairies don't like metal in myths
These are not really particularly complicated.
There are some weird ones, though, like apparently underhanded fighters are really afraid of bugs. And Flying's weaknesses that aren't Rock. And you should punch ice.
That's pretty much as complex as weaknesses get. You're overthinking it, a lot.
Fire burns wood
Fire melts metal
Fire melts ice
Two birds with one stone
Honorable fighting techniques beat dishonest fighting techniques
Water puts out fire
Sand smothers fire
Telekenisis used against you makes it hard to punch stuff
Things that are creepy make it hard to focus
Dragons are the only thing powerful enough to harm other dragons
Rocks sink
Water and soil make the soil loose and weaker
Plants absorb water
Fairies do not like metal
Reptiles, aka Dragons, are cold blooded
Birds eat bugs
Birds eat seeds and fruit and burrow into trees
Bugs destroy crops
Bees hate smoke
Ice picks are made of metal
Fairies don't like metal in myths
These are not really particularly complicated.
There are some weird ones, though, like apparently underhanded fighters are really afraid of bugs. And Flying's weaknesses that aren't Rock. And you should punch ice.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I still disagree on rock on flying because you're flying and it's actually pretty hard to hit a bird with a stone, and we haven't gotten to Dark and Fairy even
and it's not simple as that - pollution is never simple since we get shit like smog, is it flying?
and it's not simple as that - pollution is never simple since we get shit like smog, is it flying?
balladofwindfishes
Member
Certain types appear to be based on specific moves and everything else is just put into place. Like stuff in the air doesn't notice there's an earthquake. Birds don't like flying on blizzards. Smog wouldn't matter, because sludge, gunk shot, etc exist, and that's all that matters. They obviously didn't care that Ice Punch existed when making flying types weak to Ice.
Dark seems pretty easy, other than Dark vs Bug. Dark is both dirty fighters, but also the concept of shadows and darkness. It makes Psychic types too nervous to attack (psychic's other two weaknesses are also fear based). Honorable fighters are better than cheaters, so Dark is weak to Fighting.
Ghost vs Dark is kind of weird, but I think it's pretty much entirely based on Gengar being a shadow and total darkness doesn't have any shadows.
I guess most bugs don't really care if it's dark out or not. Ehh...
Another reason you can tell Gamefreak is heavily biased against Grass is that Grass has, even after seven damn generations, never had E4 representation. In fact, they've never had representation surpassing the 4th gym. Meanwhile Fire has had two E4 and one champion who's ace was part Fire. Then you have Water, which went so far as to have one Champion and final gym leader IN THE SAME GAME (I still don't understand wtf they were thinking with Emerald and Juan/Wallace).
Then you can look at the fact that grass types have lower stat averages than Fire and Water. But nothing is more obvious about bias than the fact that the early gens had Grass starters have a base stat total of 525, where Water was 530 and Fire was 534. 🙄
Then you can look at the fact that grass types have lower stat averages than Fire and Water. But nothing is more obvious about bias than the fact that the early gens had Grass starters have a base stat total of 525, where Water was 530 and Fire was 534. 🙄
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
But rock vs flying isn't that simple though. And also most of those variations of poison are already water in some cases. And again you get shit like Acid even though Steel is immune to Poison. Ice Punch fundamentally is still an ice move, so that's that.
And I argue ghosts can do jack shit on pure evil. Why spook evil.
Also dark vs bug is obvious, come on.
Smog isn't a huge problem for birds in the same way water pollution is for fish and amphibians (and for our own water sources).
Again, you're taking a fairly intuitive matchup (chemicals in the river=dead fish) and overcomplicating it.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
but then Pokemon didn't turn it like that, in spite of being "intuitive"
hell, the Kamen Rider reference I stated feels more in line with their reasoning (yeah, Pokemon loves references like that)
Elaugaufein
Member
Pokemon wasn't exactly complex in either mechanics or thematics in Gen I. Like the whole thing where the Ghost resistance to Psychic was never implemented , meaning that the Poison/Ghosts took double damage and the hilarious thing where Psychics were immune to Ghost moves in RB. I don't think anyone at the time expected competitive type or move matchups to matter much, nor where they much worried about weaknesses / strengths between a quick scribbling of some thematic justifications and making sure their were "enough" defining features.
Gen II's two additional types were like Fairy primarily focused on meta-correction (primarily of the ridiculously OTT Psychic dominance in Gen 1 , but Steel also resisted Dragon, which was more necessary in the light of Gen II actually producing real Dragon type damage), the rest of it was just a quick check of thematic consistency.
Boomburst is great. It's very powerful, but it's distribution makes it so that it's a useful tool for Pokemon that don't really have anything else (it made people very briefly take notice of Chatot of all things), and that's what makes it balanced.
It's everything that Scald, Knock Off, etc fail to be. The Knock Off buff's impact on the metagame was amazing before the move tutors got released and everyone and their dog could learn it.
Elaugaufein
Member
I would argue it's overly powerful and that if they wanted to make specific pokemon better it would have been more logical to increase their Atk / Sp Atk and/or Move Pool. Moves like it tend to get wider and wider distributions over time making vast swathes of moves useless. It's 10 points less powerful than Hyper Beam and has no real drawbacks at all (sure it's Sonic but that has more ups than downs at the moment, with its ability to hit through Subs). It's also more powerful than all of the Self-Stat Debuffer powerful moves with none of the drawbacks. It's pretty much literally in a class of it's own.
If anything, I'd see more logic in Ice being super effective against Water.
unknownstranger
Member
If Boomburst was given out to better Pokémon (I was mildly surprised Primarina didn't get it, especially with her hidden ability) then I could see a nerf coming but as is it's whatever.
balladofwindfishes
Member
How is "kill two birds with one stone" being a very common saying, even in Japan, not a simple reason flying types are weak to rock? Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
My point was that if it was intuitive and simple, they'd have implemented it already.
It's so weird that the featured Pokemon, Noivern, couldn't really use it to the fullest. I still love ya, fruit bat dragon.
I thought the whole metaphor was being ironic - part of its context was that you hit two things with one activity, but said activity was also hard to begin with.
balladofwindfishes
Member
You're overthinking the weakness again. It isn't any more complicated than a famous saying exists about killing birds with stones. It doesn't matter what the meaning is behind the proverb.