• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

The Leftovers S3 |OT| The End Is Near - Premieres Sunday 4/16, 9pm on HBO

Solo

Member
I disagree. It's not the lying that is out of Nora's character. It's what it means if she is indeed lying: abandoning her brother when he needs her the most. Not even attending his funeral. It flies in the face of the bonding we've seen the two share the past 2 episodes.

How can you call it abandoning when we literally know nothing about it other than that Nora wasn't at the funeral? For all we know, Matt told her that he didn't want her to watch him die, and that their reunion and common ground struck before the machine was how he wanted her to remember him. As for not going to the funeral, again, that is human behavior that doesn't need to be linked to abandonment in any manner. Perhaps it was simply too hard for Nora to take, to lose her absolute last remaining family member. I took their final scene as them saying goodbye, regardless of the machine's outcome.

It's pretending she's switching off any feelings for the people she knows (your example with Lily is perfect to illustrate how unlike Nora it would have been if she had cut all ties). We see it further with Nora being the only one to remember Erika and paying her a visit. Heck, even in her so-called 'exile' she has weekly phone calls with Laurie.

For starters, I don't believe she shut off her feelings. Quite the opposite - she likely suffered worse than anyone living alone halfway across the world. Laurie is her therapist - there's nothing strange about keeping in contact with her, plus it had the added benefit of allowing her to keep tabs on what was going on in Jarden.

Tell me: if Nora's story is indeed a lie, why did she back-out of the experiment? Why would she call off her only chance to be with her kids? What made her 'stay', what is highlighted by this decision that is in line with her then secluding herself?

There are a couple easy reasons I can think of. First would be straight up fear. Nora thinks these people are getting incinerated. It's one thing to think that and sign up for it, but it's another thing altogether to be sitting there waiting on your imminent death. The second is also fear.....fear of the machine actually working and having to face her family and all the myriad of unknowns that come with that. Will they still be kids? Will they have moved on? Will they know who I am?

Why didn't Nora try to reunite with Kevin (like she said she wanted to) all this time? You say Nora 'found a way to move past her loss' but too bad we don't see how or what because we time-skipped so far ahead. Or you're saying that at that moment where she's making up the story for Kevin, that's when she found the way. Either way, it's silly. Nothing would have stopped Nora to get back together with Kevin soon after she aborted her 'trip'. If Nora's lying, nothing they showed this finale elucidated to the viewer why she secluded herself for this along or what triggers her now pursuing a life with Kevin.

In Nora and Kevin's final discussion, Kevin told her basically to fuck off and die. Their relationship was highly toxic at that point. Even if you want to be together, relationships don't work that way. You can't just hand wave away all the awful things you've said to each other and the hurt you've caused each other. People need time and space. And at some point, after a couple years and thousands of miles apart, she has to assume that he's moved on, even if she still holds the candle. What triggers her now is Kevin literally showing up on her doorstep and professing that he's been searching for her for all these years.

I could also argue that it would be against Nora's character to appropriate the Departure and its appendices to her own benefit (that's what she's going up against the entire show and why she works at the Departure division) but you could respond saying it's shows how great the gesture she's making towards Kevin and her desire to be together that's she's making up the story to explain why she disappeared from his life.

Maybe the story is for her and not for Kevin at all? A way for her to feel, even if it's a figment of her imagination, that her kids are healthy and happy and doing alright on the other side. That liberates her and frees her of the guilt she's carried around for years. It's a coping mechanism so that she can move on and try to live a full life. Otherwise she'll spend the rest of her life as she has spent the past X number of years, in agony.

I also wanted to comment about Lindelof's handling of Laurie. Plain admittance of incompetency and frankly of not giving a shit for his creative work.
He and his team planned, wrote, directed, shot, cut, composed and edited Laurie's episode with the full creative intent and desire to communicate her killing herself but he then decides to 'un-do' this after watching the complete episode? What in the flying fuck.

That is the creative process. No show is static and set in stone. And if they were, they likely wouldn't be any good. Every show in history, despite the intentions of the writers, is subject to the thoughts, feelings, emotions of not only the creative staff, but of the audience and critics. Things have to be dynamic for this reason. If something isn't working, then you change it. If a character isn't working, you write them out. Look at Lost for a Lindelof example. They introduced Nikki and Paulo and killed them off within 6 episodes. That is the kind of course correction that all shows go with. Think of how many hundreds of shows have killed off a character but found a loophole by which to bring them back. Happens all the time.

iLke, i will be the first (and was) to say trying to arm-strong Laurie's character into suicide again was crap and out of the blue and so forth. But dude. First, you thought this was the right choice and the right execution so stick to than vision of what should be carefully planned season and arcs and progression. And second, changed your mind? Re-write. You can't just leave this episode still written and edited (that lazy flashback) in the manner it was originally to convey Laurie taking her life but then pop the character back in the next episode as the solution. That's adding insult to injury. The same insult to injury he did with writing-off the crap GR portion of the show but not giving the due attention in-fiction to how it was done.

What does it matter? The golden rule of television is if you don't see a character die, then they are never truly dead. I think it would be far more stubborn to keep Laurie committing suicide in there if you realized it wasn't the way you wanted to go and had a chance to change it. They had that chance and took it. Shows take that kind of creative liberty all the time. Lindelof felt it was stronger to keep her alive in the end. You can hate the choice, of course, but he was absolutely entitled to it.

And to think of all the posters who argued in favor of this resolution and that it was 'earned' and so forth.

I can only speak for myself, but the entire series, let alone the finale, struck a deep emotional chord with me and it absolutely delivered.

And for the record I believe Nora was telling the truth.
 
Haven't read anything in this thread but I'm four episodes into season 3 and wanted to ask... am I supposed to know the significance of the "seven year" anniversary? Like, why not six or eight? Who came up with that number? Please no spoilers but if anyone could only confirm whether or not I missed something so far (or forgotten something about previous seasons), that'd be appreciated. Thanks.

(also this show continues to be fucking great)
 
Haven't read anything in this thread but I'm four episodes into season 3 and wanted to ask... am I supposed to know the significance of the "seven year" anniversary? Like, why not six or eight? Who came up with that number? Please no spoilers but if anyone could only confirm whether or not I missed something so far (or forgotten something about previous seasons), that'd be appreciated. Thanks.

(also this show continues to be fucking great)

There is a lot of biblical significance to major events happening with exactly seven years separating them. I am almost certain that in Christian mythology, the Rapture (where all the true believers disappear) and the Glorious Reappearing (where Jesus returns to earth and there are 1000 years of peace and prosperity) are separated by seven years of the Antichrist ruling the earth.

I think there are more examples that are similar to that, too
 

Erigu

Member
If something isn't working, then you change it. If a character isn't working, you write them out. Look at Lost for a Lindelof example. They introduced Nikki and Paulo and killed them off within 6 episodes.
And how elegant that was!

Think of how many hundreds of shows have killed off a character but found a loophole by which to bring them back. Happens all the time.
... then...
What does it matter? The golden rule of television is if you don't see a character die, then they are never truly dead.
Well, if we're setting the bar at "soap opera-level of storytelling", sure, I guess it doesn't matter...

It seems even some of the writers had a problem with that...
It's almost as if it would have been better to rewrite the damn thing!

I think it would be far more stubborn to keep Laurie committing suicide in there if you realized it wasn't the way you wanted to go and had a chance to change it.
See above: there were more than just two options, there.
 

Solo

Member
I mean, if you take issue with the scene/its ambiguity/potential misleading, rather than demanding a wholesale rewrite, an easier solution would be to just cut that 2 minute scene.
 

Erigu

Member
I mean, if you take issue with the scene/its ambiguity/potential misleading, rather than demanding a wholesale rewrite, an easier solution would be to just cut that 2 minute scene.
It would take a bit more than that, since other scenes in that episode (the intro, the opening credits, Nora's mention of scuba diving) were leading to it (better late than never, I guess!).
And I don't know, maybe they had already shot everything at that point and it just wasn't an option to rewrite the thing... Then, the criticism becomes "why the fuck would they write and shoot that in the first place?"
 

Saty

Member
How can you call it abandoning when we literally know nothing about it other than that Nora wasn't at the funeral? For all we know, Matt told her that he didn't want her to watch him die, and that their reunion and common ground struck before the machine was how he wanted her to remember him. As for not going to the funeral, again, that is human behavior that doesn't need to be linked to abandonment in any manner. Perhaps it was simply too hard for Nora to take, to lose her absolute last remaining family member. I took their final scene as them saying goodbye, regardless of the machine's outcome.
While we can't say for sure, it seems like Nora stayed in Australia all that time. To be honest, we don't even know what Matt knows.Kevin said Matt told him Nora was gone. Was this something Nora asked Matt to say or did he not know what happened to her too?

Anyhow, the impression is that Nora didn't come back to the USA with Matt. Sure, he could have asked Nora to stay away, but the Nora i understood throughout the show wouldn't have agreed to. She wouldn't let her brother face it without her, she wouldn't leave Mary alone in this and she wouldn't leave her nephew in these tough times. You are talking about a person that still cherishes her Departed children and wouldn't let go of them. Why would she so abruptly and completely let go of her remaining blood family? She didn't let go of Lily all the time between S2 and 3. So it isn't just about missing the date of the funeral.



For starters, I don't believe she shut off her feelings. Quite the opposite - she likely suffered worse than anyone living alone halfway across the world. Laurie is her therapist - there's nothing strange about keeping in contact with her, plus it had the added benefit of allowing her to keep tabs on what was going on in Jarden.

Of course it's strange to sentence yourself to life in exile, away from the people you knew only to talk with one of them on a weekly basis. What, she couldn't find a therapist in her time-zone? And Nora wasn't really keeping tabs on anything. Laurie says they established a rule where she doesn't tell the people in Miracle about her, and doesn't tell Nora about the people in Miracle. So Nora supposedly makes it clear she doesn't want to take any part in that life but on the other hand she chooses Laurie as her therapist.


There are a couple easy reasons I can think of. First would be straight up fear. Nora thinks these people are getting incinerated. It's one thing to think that and sign up for it, but it's another thing altogether to be sitting there waiting on your imminent death. The second is also fear.....fear of the machine actually working and having to face her family and all the myriad of unknowns that come with that. Will they still be kids? Will they have moved on? Will they know who I am?
These are possible reasons for aborting the experiment, yes. But why then go and do what Nora did? Why imprison herself in a nowhere town in Australia? Why live off-the-gird and w\o technology? Why severe her ties (except one) and behave like she doesn't want to be found?

If i were to side with Nora lying to Kevin then the most readily and fitting reasoning for aborting the trip would be that Nora decides to choose her life as it is. She does finally move on and lets go of her children. She gives up on her opportunity, however slim it is, to reunite with her kids in order to be able to give in to content life with Kevin. If Garvey had his moment last of episode of clarity about wanting to be with Nora - then this was supposed to be Nora's. She finally puts the Departure behind her. This is the arc. This is finally internalizing Kevin's accusations at the hotel.

So that's the only way i can make sense of her not going through with the experiment that is actually consistent with her character and journey and the themes at play and so forth. I see no way to meaningfully reconcile Nora's decision not to cross over only to act like Kevin and co. are dead. She didn't forfeit her kids to live secluded no-life.


In Nora and Kevin's final discussion, Kevin told her basically to fuck off and die. Their relationship was highly toxic at that point. Even if you want to be together, relationships don't work that way. You can't just hand wave away all the awful things you've said to each other and the hurt you've caused each other. People need time and space. And at some point, after a couple years and thousands of miles apart, she has to assume that he's moved on, even if she still holds the candle. What triggers her now is Kevin literally showing up on her doorstep and professing that he's been searching for her for all these years.
See above. Besides, Nora could have taken a 'time-out' to process stuff out. She didn't need to go live in seclusion or away from all the other people she cared about for this long, only to be 'reminded' that she likes this guy. She could have easily asked Laurie about Kevin in their many conversations.
This time and space people need is also exactly why Nora actually spending X time in the other world is the 'preferred' reading of the finale.


Maybe the story is for her and not for Kevin at all? A way for her to feel, even if it's a figment of her imagination, that her kids are healthy and happy and doing alright on the other side. That liberates her and frees her of the guilt she's carried around for years. It's a coping mechanism so that she can move on and try to live a full life. Otherwise she'll spend the rest of her life as she has spent the past X number of years, in agony.
Or maybe it's the truth and she explains why and how she made peace with the Departure and why she makes the choice to leave that world and come back. Nora either makes peace with it and aborts her trip, or she finds peace and her burden is lifted now that she visited them and knows they are all right and happy. She can go back to her world and be happy too with Kevin.

The fact she didn't even in the case she way saying the truth is one of the reasons the finale was weak in my mind. But it's still better reading than her lying for the reasons i laid down. And also because some of the time she would have been in the other world.


--
i'll try to respond to the creative argument tomorrow.
 

Chitown B

Member
There is a lot of biblical significance to major events happening with exactly seven years separating them. I am almost certain that in Christian mythology, the Rapture (where all the true believers disappear) and the Glorious Reappearing (where Jesus returns to earth and there are 1000 years of peace and prosperity) are separated by seven years of the Antichrist ruling the earth.

I think there are more examples that are similar to that, too

was Christianity mentioned in the show? I'm not even sure it was. I think it's meant to be ambiguous what religion people believe the disappearance might have been for.
 
was Christianity mentioned in the show? I'm not even sure it was. I think it's meant to be ambiguous what religion people believe the disappearance might have been for.

What? Just about everything to do with Matt is about Christianity. Dude's a priest. He believes(believed?) Kevin was the new messiah.
 

Leeness

Member
Finally watching the and it's just so sweet. :') I'm just so happy to see them together.

Yeah, that was beautiful. "I'm here" :')
 

Chitown B

Member
What? Just about everything to do with Matt is about Christianity. Dude's a priest. He believes(believed?) Kevin was the new messiah.

but did he say Christian? Just wondering if it was ambiguous and just implied. Because I can't remember them talking about Christianity directly.
 

Avalanche

Member
What a beautiful end to a beautiful show. The feels!

Having Nora tell the story of where the departed went rather than showing it, and using it as the underpinning of her emotional catharsis rather than some big twist revelation is exactly why I loved this show so much.
 

Fantastical

Death Prophet
I just bawled my eyes out at the end of the finale. I just really love Nora. Not even sure what everyone is arguing about in this thread, but I loved the show.

EDIT: The finale is similar to why I actually enjoyed the Lost finale, and I feel like it's kind of Lindelof just saying fuck you to those wanting concrete answers to everything in a show. Instead, he gives you almost no answers but gives resolutions to all the characters.
 

Chumley

Banned
Finale made me cry more than any other episode of the show, and I rewatched it 3 times.

Nora is probably my favorite female lead character in any show, ever, and I hope Carrie Coon wins an Oscar some day soon. Absolutely amazing actor with the most endearing smile in Hollywood. Even just with her eyes, the way she looks at Kevin during the dance or after his confession before saying "do you want tea?"
 

Solo

Member
Good montage.

Wonder when the Blu Ray collection will be released?

That's something I'm curious about too. Being new to the show, I don't own any of the seasons yet, so I'm hopeful that a complete series Bluray boxset is coming alongside the S3 Bluray release.
 

SCHUEY F1

Unconfirmed Member
That's something I'm curious about too. Being new to the show, I don't own any of the seasons yet, so I'm hopeful that a complete series Bluray boxset is coming alongside the S3 Bluray release.

I hope so. The quality on TMN Go wasn't great so I'd like to watch it again on Blu Ray
 

BadAss2961

Member
Loved S1 and S2. This one had its moments, but I ultimately feel like it was a whole lot of nothing. I don't mind hidden messages and ambiguity, but going into the finale, I felt like most of this season was sacrificed. Promising a major revelation that would never come. Didn't feel like this season's content earned its low key finale at all.

Where S1 and S2 both had neatly wrapped standalone episodes that worked as short stories on their own (particularly the character episodes), everything in S3 was building towards culminations for Kevin, Nora, and the anniversary of the departure. Pretty much nothing happened on all 3 fronts. Nothing happened on the anniversary of the departure, which was foreshadowed. Kevin wasn't the second coming, had no role in what would happen to this world. Maybe Nora went to the other side, maybe she didn't. Seems odd that she'd be the only known case of someone getting there and coming back. Entire episodes were focused around these angles that ended up going nowhere.

Also wasn't a fan of so much time being built on misdirection. Like spending the greater part of an episode thinking Evie is in Australia, only for it to be in Kevin's head. Or in the finale, wondering where Nora was and why Kevin didn't remember their past, only to find out he was doing it on purpose for reasons that don't really make much sense other than fabricating some suspense. Feel like i'm forgetting another one of these examples...

Basically, everyone was just crazy and misguided in this season. Everyone but Laurie trapped in this sad bubble. The end.
 

Solo

Member
I think you need to rewatch the opening scene of the season again. It straight up telegraphs what is going to happen - for centuries, various groups have been predicting the apocalypse, and yet it never comes. Kevin Sr. is nothing but the latest in a thousand year lineage of false prophets. The season wasn't about the impending apocalypse and the liberating nature of the end of the world, it was about what do we do with ourselves when the apocalypse doesn't come and we're forced stop running away from and to deal with the real shit in our lives.
 

BadAss2961

Member
I think you need to rewatch the opening scene of the season again. It straight up telegraphs what is going to happen - for centuries, various groups have been predicting the apocalypse, and yet it never comes. Kevin Sr. is nothing but the latest in a thousand year lineage of false prophets. The season wasn't about the impending apocalypse and the liberating nature of the end of the world, it was about what do we do with ourselves when the apocalypse doesn't come and we're forced stop running away from and to deal with the real shit in our lives.
I remembered the opening scene, which is what I meant when I mentioned the apocalypse dud being foreshadowed. But with the way the episodes unfolded, I expected more. This season moved slowly, giving every supporting character a backseat role in the greater story of Kevin. Building towards a big climax that never came. Not only that, but what did happen in the end made most this season's events pointless. Kevin... Everything Australia... The apocalypse... Kevin SR's scheme that spanned an entire episode... None of it actually mattered in the end. So if the goal was to lead viewers along and disappoint them like the village in the opening scene, they succeeded.

Nora was the only thing going outside that whole mess. I'm fine with the way things went for her, but the emptiness I got from Kevin's story made me want more than what was necessary from Nora's side. The ending could've been really effective if I was satisfied with the Kevin angle.
 

Majmun

Member
It was an interesting show. Don't know what to think. All I know is that the show is mocking religious poeple a lot lol

I liked the ending. The finale was very dreamy and I loveeeed Nora's acting. The part where she explains where she supposedly went...I don't think I was breathing during that part.
 

AoM

Member
Maybe I'm misremembering, but wasn't there a scene in the second season about a cave woman disappearing or something during some earthquake?

After her tribe got trapped in their cave by rocks falling from the earthquake, she was left alone and gave birth. She got bit by a snake trying to get food, and another cave woman came by and took her baby.
 

Grizzlyjin

Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
Fargo Season 3 just ended, and it really reminded me of the ending of Leftovers. Complete with Coon.

Carrie Coon Season is now over. 😢

I think both shows handled their levels of ambiguity well. The Leftovers stuck the landing a little better for me, just cause it built up to that final scene the entire episode. Fargo Season 3 Spoiler:
With Fargo, I REALLY wanted Varga to get his shit knocked around or truly put off kilter at least once. The show denied the viewer that carthasis, so it I felt a little hollow. But I don't inherently have an issue with the ending. Just wish Varga would've sweated a little more before his speech.
With The Leftovers, the truth behind Nora's story didn't really matter. Real or not, her and Kevin were ready to move on together.
 
All episodes for the third series are now on Sky box set here in the UK, along with all of S1 and S2.

Can't wait to finally see how this all ends!!
 
Wrapped this up yesterday. Began watching it maybe a month ago. Overall I liked it.

It's funny how Lost-like and Fringe-like my feelings are. I can't quite put my finger on it but there's something about the pacing and switches between season themes and the way it's wrapped up. They all left a similar impact. This wasn't as hooking and gripping as both mentioned, but it was ok.

For me there weren't that many characters to really, really love. Nora was maybe the best character of them all. Most consistent and IMO best constructed. That ending scene was A+ on her part. Wasn't the biggest fan of her make-up. It could have been done better.

Matt grew up from a very unlikeable and desperate man of faith into something that really clicked on me at the very end of the series. For instance John Murphy I didn't get at all.
 

SMattera

Member
Finally finished it.

The Leftovers is by far the best television show of all time. I've never seen something so emotionally compelling.

I really don't care to debate the voracity of Nora's story. It simply doesn't matter. The brilliance of the show lies in things like Matt's monologue. That scene with Laurie on the boat. Truly incredible.
 
Top Bottom