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G. Kamitani replies to J. Schreier's Kotaku article on Dragon's Crown (slightly NSFW)

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X

XANDER CAGE

Member
I think the joke is supposed to be "well maybe you'll like these ridiculously sexualized men better," although that's still close enough to "haha ur gay" to make me roll my eyes. It's sorta hard to tell from that sentence, though.

Still, Dragon's Crown is one of those rare games that dishes out its ludicrous over-the-top sexualized designs to both men and women, so I find it a little odd that it's being singled out by Kotaku here. The Amazon is hardly your typical "hot lady" character, either.
 
F

Femmeworth

Banned
I think I would have more respect for the game's art if all the characters were men designed to appeal to gay men. At least it would be different.
XANDER CAGE said:
Still, Dragon's Crown is one of those rare games that dishes out its ludicrous over-the-top sexualized designs to both men and women, so I find it a little odd that it's being singled out by Kotaku here. The Amazon is hardly your typical "hot lady" character, either.
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Yeah, but they still slapped (relatively) big breasts on her. :\
 
S

SixMachine

Member
EDarkness said:
Of course I've seen his stuff, but my feeling about it is the same. I have a lot of respect for Frank's work, but I just feel like this is a different level entirely. Some people are gonna like it, but it should stand to reason that others won't.
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This is not on a different level. Frank Frazetta artwork is even more brazen than this. I used to work in a comic shop and we carried work and artbooks by him, and he likes to draw a full frontal of naked chicks and others drawings having women in front of some hunk of muscle and other times have their hand tied or something.
 
M

markot

Banned
Shinta said:
Is it less offensive to mock anyone who finds breasts attractive? It's "juvenile" if you like any erotic art now. Somehow it's become perfectly fine to mock people's sexuality and sexual expression if they're straight males. It's actually considered progressive.
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Yeah you are so oppressed.
 
R

remz

Member
XANDER CAGE said:
I think the joke is supposed to be "well maybe you'll like these ridiculously sexualized men better," although that's still close enough to "haha ur gay" to make me roll my eyes. It's sorta hard to tell from that sentence, though.

Still, Dragon's Crown is one of those rare games that dishes out its ludicrous over-the-top sexualized designs to both men and women, so I find it a little odd that it's being singled out by Kotaku here. The Amazon is hardly your typical "hot lady" character, either.
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Yeah, this is mostly my thing with the game too. EVERYONE is over the top so it's not as bad as if the men were normal and the women ridiculous. It's just the general aesthetic.
 
Z

Zaptruder

Banned
Mocking schreier for been gay?

Or a dig at western industry's obsession with big thick guys as the main character, and the lack of self awareness at such a fact?

Hey man, if all "You are gay" digs were this creative, people might have much less of an issue with them!
 
D

Dead Man

Member
Shinta said:
Is it less offensive to mock anyone who finds breasts attractive? It's "juvenile" if you like any erotic art now. Somehow it's become perfectly fine to mock people's sexuality and sexual expression if they're straight males. It's actually considered progressive.
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That's not what he said, at all. If you can't see the difference, then you need to read it again.

God, stop making me defend JS here people! :)
 
S

Shinta

Banned
markot said:
Yeah you are so oppressed.
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It's either cool to mock people's sexuality or it's not. Basic logic.

Dead Man said:
That's not what he said, at all. If you can't see the difference, then you need to read it again.

God, stop making me defend JS here people! :)
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Well defend him or get out of the way. I don't see how this isn't exactly what he said. I don't see the difference. If you like Dragon's Crown artwork, you're cheap and juvenile. Did I miss something?
 
S

SmokyDave

Member
Dead Man said:
Other people need to stop thinking that not liking a particular depiction of a character means you are gay, or that there is something wrong with that. I have no problem with the design existing, I think it's bad, but so what? But the response was pathetic.
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I agree. Assuming that the intended jibe was 'if you don't like tits, you like cock', the response is far more juvenile and offensive than any character design. I'm just sick to the back teeth of all the whinging surrounding this game and the assumption that the art style is somehow 'juvenile' because it features sexualised female characters.
 
C

Chev

Member
The art in Dragon's Crown and Vanillaware in general draws on a lot more things than just boobs but you can't really count on videogame journalists to catch on that kind of subtlety. I kinda doubt any writer at Kotaku knows who Bruegel the Elder is.

Also people are missing that a sexy dwarf just like those three in OP is in the game but nobody's objecting to him even though he's just as half-naked as the girls.
 
M

Metalmurphy

Member
Isn't the dwarf already overly sexualized? That's the problem I have with the article, complains about boobs but not about this:
dc-dwarfmmkxu.jpg



They're not exactly playing double standards here, it's just the games art style.
 
S

Salsa

Member
also, this kind of response kinda just adds more fuel to the fire if he actually wants to write a well-written article about the issue with this whole thing for a change..

but I guess he's more interested in trying to get people angry
 
D

Dead Man

Member
SmokyDave said:
I agree. Assuming that the intended jibe was 'if you don't like tits, you like cock', the response is far more juvenile and offensive than any character design. I'm just sick to the back teeth of all the whinging surrounding this game and the assumption that the art style is somehow 'juvenile' because it features sexualised female characters.
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I've missed all the fury so far apparently, so all I have is this small article with one persons opinion and the utterly classless reply. :/
Shinta said:
It's either cool to mock people's sexuality or it's not. Basic logic.
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You seriously feel like being heterosexual was being mocked in that article?

Shinta said:
It's either cool to mock people's sexuality or it's not. Basic logic.



Well defend him or get out of the way. I don't see how this isn't exactly what he said. I don't see the difference. If you like Dragon's Crown artwork, you're cheap and juvenile. Did I miss something?
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Dragons Crown artwork does not appeal to all heterosexual people. Do you see how a straight male may not like this artwork or design? You can say that is this appeals you are juvenile while not having anything negative to say about heterosexuality at all.
 
RedAssedApe

RedAssedApe

Banned
Espada said:
Wait, that's how Kotaku deals with criticism about their content and its quality? That's pretty sad if true.
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i basically got banned for posting a comment asking if an editor really needed to post an article that was basically "my friend created a character in rock band that looks like sarah palin hur hur hur". that was literally it...i suppose it was a slow weekend and the weekend news editor had to post something lol

and yeah people were replying "its a blog and not a news site" haha fair enough...i guess if their community wants that kind of shit...they should cater to whatever brings in the eyeballs.
 
P

patapuf

Member
All characters in the game are completely over the top proportion wise. I don't understand singling out one character in particular.
 
G

Goldmund

Member
michaelius said:
More like - "here's some Marcus Fenix looks alike you guys want in all your western games"
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If it was meant as commentary on the pretty overt glorification of masculinity and simultaneously unacknowledged homoerotic tendencies in Western shooters, it's a little too subtle for its own good.

On a side note: I find the art in general pretty cool, it's super-deformed and stylized.
 
S

SolidSnakex

Member
SalsaShark said:
also, this kind of response kinda just adds more fuel to the fire if he actually wants to write a well-written article about the issue with this whole thing for a change..

but I guess he's more interested in trying to get people angry
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A well written article about what? How Dragon's Crown exaggerates nearly every character in its game? Google Sorceress. What do you find? A bunch of images of women with large breasts that are either exposed or close to being exposed. DC's version of that is just an even more exaggerated version of that. Just as its version of a dwarf is a highly exaggerated version of a dwarf that you see in movies or comics. The Elf and the Wizard are the only two characters that aren't exagerrated. And that's because there really isn't anything there to exaggerate. They're the most standard character types in this formula.
 
F

Fusebox

Banned
I took the response to mean this:

When he draws characters, they're all absurdly proportioned regardless of gender, this picture is evidence.

He isn't hung up on the female form and is equally comfortable drawing absurdly proportioned men, this picture is evidence.

He is also equally comfortable drawing men with sexualised overtones, this picture is evidence.
 
E

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I really do pity people who cannot appreciate Dragon Crown's art. It's so beautifully on point for the erotic fantasy style it's trying to be. But I guess some people do have the opinion that sexuality is reserved for teenagers, and not adults.
 
D

dreamfall

Member
I wouldn't say that was an article per say- that was just his opinion on a trailer. A shitty one, but his to broadcast.

The response though- not sure what he means? I like the dwarves art style too!

Edit: Isn't Schreier on GAF?
 
Burger

Burger

Member
EDarkness said:
Maybe it is, but doesn't mean that we can't have an opinion about it. So many folks are ready to jump on someone who doesn't agree with them on this. In my opinion (as I said), I don't like it and it comes off as exploiting women a bit. You like it? Great.
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Sure you can have an opinion, sure you can be offended but it's sort of tough shit that you are as you don't really have any right to not be.

I'm not jumping on you, just because artwork is slightly sexual or overt does not mean it's exploiting women. Do artists like Boris Vallejo exploit men and woman because they draw highly stylised artwork of mostly naked figures? No.
 
H

Hero

Member
Jason I generally like your articles on Kotaku but the one on Dragon's Crown is fucking terrible. Like classic Kotaku terrible.
 
C

Coxy

Member
those are versions of the dwarf, a similarly exaggerated male design in the actual game
the point is not "you are gay" it's "why are you singling out the female character?"

You're only contributing to the problem and creating more otherness when you complain about female characters being treated the same way as male characters.
 
P

Phonomezer

Banned
Dragon's Crown looks ridiculous, but they could at least make the males as sexually attractive as the females, because the males all look like shit.
 
ULTROS!

ULTROS!

People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
SolidSnakex said:
A well written article about what? How Dragon's Crown exaggerates nearly every character in its game? Google Sorceress. What do you find? A bunch of images of women with large breasts that are either exposed or close to being exposed. DC's version of that is just an even more exaggerated version of that. Just as its version of a dwarf is a highly exaggerated version of a dwarf that you see in movies or comics. The Elf and the Wizard are the only two characters that aren't exagerrated. And that's because there really isn't anything there to exaggerate. They're the most standard character types in this formula.
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The knight is also exaggerated by having an impossible V torso (seen as something sexual I believe). I guess that's an oversexualized man.

The thing is, the Kotaku article purely points out to the female design and how they're "exaggerated and tasteless". George responded by giving him an even more exaggerated male art. He's not saying Schreier is gay or anything.
 
M

markot

Banned
SmokyDave said:
I agree. Assuming that the intended jibe was 'if you don't like tits, you like cock', the response is far more juvenile and offensive than any character design. I'm just sick to the back teeth of all the whinging surrounding this game and the assumption that the art style is somehow 'juvenile' because it features sexualised female characters.
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How isnt it juvenile? The constant barrage of men with necks as thick as 5000 year old trees who are twice the size of female characters, who are always so disproportionate that picasso would think it strange.

Its completely juvenile, its the comic book wank material that infests most games these days.

Whats wrong with pointing it out? And why get offended by it? Its not like its a rare occurance, its 90% of the games released these days.

Women - overtly sexy. Men - moranically muscly. Its getting dull.

Its getting Anime levels of ridiculous.
 
DR2K

DR2K

Banned
Why do people care so much about sex? Violence is aok, but exaggerated bust lines are childish? Please.
 
D

Dead Man

Member
Shinta said:
What does juvenile and cheap mean to you then?
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Juvenile and cheap. It means the design is juvenile and cheap. And it is. There is nothing wrong with that. Juvenile and cheap are fine. It makes no statement about people who are attracted to women in general, only those that are attracted to that one design, for whatever reason, not necessarily sexual.

You are looking way too hard at this.
 
F

Femmeworth

Banned
Metalmurphy said:
Isn't the dwarf already overly sexualized? That's the problem I have with the article, complains about boobs but not about this:
dc-dwarfmmkxu.jpg



They're not exactly playing double standards here, it's just the games art style.
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I totally get the picture in the OP being sexy, but this not so much. Would like to hear Bi/GayGAF's opinion or even straight/bi GirlGAF.
EatChildren said:
I really do pity people who cannot appreciate Dragon Crown's art. It's so beautifully on point for the erotic fantasy style it's trying to be. But I guess some people do have the opinion that sexuality is reserved for teenagers, and not adults.
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It's more accurate to say that exaggerated eroticism is seen as being more juvenile.
 
X

XANDER CAGE

Member
Coxy said:
those are versions of the dwarf, a similarly exaggerated male design in the actual game
the point is not "you are gay" it's "why are you singling out the female character?"
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I'd agree with you if it weren't for this line:

The art of the direction which likes was prepared.
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it's a bit rough in english but what other way to parse it is there?
 
U

Uncle Rupee

Banned
Metalmurphy said:
Isn't the dwarf already overly sexualized? That's the problem I have with the article, complains about boobs but not about this:
dc-dwarfmmkxu.jpg



They're not exactly playing double standards here, it's just the games art style.
Click to expand...

To play the devil's advocate, this character isn't sexualized - but a male "power fantasy" archetype. At least, I'm guessing that is what most feminists would say. It's not really the same thing.
 
M

Metalmurphy

Member
Dead Man said:
Juvenile and cheap. It means the design is juvenile and cheap. And it is. There is nothing wrong with that. Juvenile and cheap are fine. It makes no statement about people who are attracted to women in general, only those that are attracted to that one design, for whatever reason, not necessarily sexual.

You are looking way too hard at this.
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You are so... SO wrong.


Uncle Rupee said:
To play the devil's advocate, this character isn't sexualized - but a male "power fantasy" archetype. At least, I'm guessing that is what most feminists would say. It's not really the same thing.
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How is it not sexualzied? He's barely wearing any armor at all, and in that pose. All that's missing is oiled skin.
 
X

XANDER CAGE

Member
Uncle Rupee said:
To play the devil's advocate, this character isn't sexualized - but a male "power fantasy" archetype. At least, I'm guessing that is what most feminists would say. It's not really the same thing.
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Like I said above, I actually think this is one of the very few games where the "but males are sexualized too" defense actually works. The game is clearly going for a Frazetta-esque erotic fantasy vibe, and it nails it perfectly. The dwarf might not be quite as overt as the sorceress, but the art in the OP certainly is.

People sorta seem to skip over the amazon, too, who is... definitely not your typical hyper-sexualized female.
 
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