KennyLinder
Member
Thanks for the video, it's really shit that PAL land gets shafted
I hope I get good answers from Nintendo but I doubt they'll be changing anything.
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So, about the Wii U 50hz VC...
- Thread starter Neff
- Start date
Thanks for the video, it's really shit that PAL land gets shafted
I hope I get good answers from Nintendo but I doubt they'll be changing anything.
GlamFM
Banned
What he said
Ein Bear
Member
You've got to be kidding.
Helps to have the original to compare.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JMY2dMnK_E
After watching that, I get it.
Victor Ireland worked with SCEE to fix that. So at least with imports they all can support 60hz.
NTSC games had 480i/480P selector mode, the PAL versions had 50i/60i modes.
Balloon Fight isn't free, it costs money - 30 Cents.
The people interested in retro games are, by definition, "nerds" - and we expect a good experience for our money. I'd rather load up bsnes if Nintendo doesn't provide proper 60Hz ROMs.
I know that. I have a selection of NTSC GC games I play on my Wii.
Yeah Nintendo shafted Pal owners again with the cube. At least Dreamcast had VGA box support even for PAL games.
:/
...think about what you just asked for a second. You should know the answer.
My guess, and it's just a guess because I'm not that technical, is it's because people still need to be able to play their Wii U through 50Hz PAL TVs. And it's easier for Nintendo just to give Europe the PAL version, instead of creating an option. Not a good reason, but maybe the reason.
There are knowledgeable people on Miiverse!
There are knowledgeable people on Miiverse!
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
...yes?
EDIT:
Almost certainly not, as there are 60Hz only VC games for the Wii.
KennyLinder
Member
Yes, just PAL territories. USA and Japan are NTSC territories (60hz).
KennyLinder
Member
It will be down to localisations. Nintendo need to support EFIGS for PAL games and NTSC versions will only have English in them. It would be lots of work to change this. They could offer an "English only 60hz version", but they don't.
EFIGS
English
French
Italian
German
Spanish
..for those that wondered
Seriously, if people want this changed we need to vocal to Nintendo about it.
EFIGS
English
French
Italian
German
Spanish
..for those that wondered
Seriously, if people want this changed we need to vocal to Nintendo about it.
I don't know where OP got his "drastic difference in gameplay speed and music" in "almost every console from the NES to the Dreamcast". I remember such a thing from one game (there were possibly others but they were rare). The game was the first Sonic the Hedgehog for Mega Drive, where the lazy PAL port features slowed down music. Sonic 2 and all later games in the series were fine though.
Anyone with enough knowledge care to clear this up?
Anyone with enough knowledge care to clear this up?
Neon_Icarus
Member
I think there should be a Project Rainfall -style campaign to
let Nintendo know that this is a major issue. I for one didn't
buy a single unoptimized VC game for the Wii, and won't for Wii U
either. (alright, I may have made an exception with PSIV, but still).
Seriously, shitty PAL conversions should have brutally died in a fire
back in the 90s.
Nintendo obviously knows it's an issue. Otherwise they wouldn't
have bothered to (partially, at least) optimise SNES games. We just need
to let them know that it's an issue that could cost them a
significant number of potential sales.
let Nintendo know that this is a major issue. I for one didn't
buy a single unoptimized VC game for the Wii, and won't for Wii U
either. (alright, I may have made an exception with PSIV, but still).
Seriously, shitty PAL conversions should have brutally died in a fire
back in the 90s.
Nintendo obviously knows it's an issue. Otherwise they wouldn't
have bothered to (partially, at least) optimise SNES games. We just need
to let them know that it's an issue that could cost them a
significant number of potential sales.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Every PAL release on native hardware prior to the DC making an effort to address things ran 17.5% slower and had borders.
This isn't a big secret thing.
PAL native resolution is 576 not 480, and at 25fps not 30fps.
EDIT:
This doesn't just affect games btw, a lot of TV shows and movies dropped frames for PAL release, or had different running times.
Movies are affected by NTSC pulldown as well, which produces noticable judder. Neither format is optimal in their case. But retro games are heavily affected by bad PAL porting efforts.
Starwolf_UK
Member
One point of praise. That balloon fight video doesn't have borders. I guess scaling down the image on the GamePad would be ugly.
The Mega Drive didn't have the same fate. Though at least the pitch didn't increase when you speeded up music (like happens on the NES) but the speedup record was patchy (e.g. Phantasy Star II plays music fullspeed yet Sonic 1 released over a year later plays at 5/6 speed, tragically needing the speedboots to play at the correct speed).
Though for Ninja Gaiden they decided to release the US version (and btw, EU Wii VC lacks both Ninja Gaiden 2 and Shadow Warriors II: The Dark Sword of Chaos)
It requires more knowledge of F-Zero. You see the SNES sound processor was separate to the main CPU so the music played back at the same speed.
The Mega Drive didn't have the same fate. Though at least the pitch didn't increase when you speeded up music (like happens on the NES) but the speedup record was patchy (e.g. Phantasy Star II plays music fullspeed yet Sonic 1 released over a year later plays at 5/6 speed, tragically needing the speedboots to play at the correct speed).
Thats good to hear.
But thing is does the Wii U come with a composite cable? (I thought it was only a HDMI cable in the box) Is it even possible to get a new composite cable outside of buying direct off NOE (though I'd image is costs as much as RGB Scart or component so not work it).
Its also some games being different in Europe. Contra > Probotector. River City Ransom > Street Gangs. Ninja Gaiden > Shadow warriors. Though in both those cases I'd image they run perfect in 60Hz.
Though for Ninja Gaiden they decided to release the US version (and btw, EU Wii VC lacks both Ninja Gaiden 2 and Shadow Warriors II: The Dark Sword of Chaos)
Movies tend to be 24 FPS and generally they are just played at 25 FPS so slightly faster...shortening their runtime.
Take a breath, walk outside from your basements for 10 minutes then come back and realise that nobody is attacking your beloved corporation.
This problem is something PAL gamers have always lamented, from SNES/MegaDrive to PS1/PS2 game and it's a major issue.
KennyLinder
Member
Right, I've emailed Eurogamer to see if they could ask Nintendo directly about why they have chosen not to offer NTSC versions as an option etc. A large website like that certainly has more pull than one of us emailing Nintendo (which I've also done).
Neff
Member
The issue gets no public attention, understanding or sympathy, and didn't even at its '90s peak. The European gamer's voice isn't very loud, and even then it's not exactly a mainstream problem. It's definitely something that anyone who is affected by it and feels dissatisfied by it needs to get behind. While it is a niche concern, it's one that will mostly irritate enthusiasts, and they're the ones Nintendo stands to make the most money from with classic re-releases.
We really shouldn't have to point out to them that they aren't selling us the product we want to buy, despite them having exactly the product we do want.
Spreading the word is definitely the right thing to do.
Were those games never originally release in Europe? If so then it's because Nintendo has no other option in those cases, besides creating a new 50Hz version which takes too much effort.
Box of Bunnies
Banned
Neff
Member
Interestingly in those cases they were games never released in Europe in the first place (yes that's right, we never had official PAL SNES releases of FFVI or Chrono Trigger), they just copied the games from the US store.
I don't see why they can't do that with other NTSC games.
I've just emailed Nintendo too. Will post something if they respond.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Yeah, but if the issue was them not running on 50Hz TVs they would have carried on not selling them.
Me too.
gingerbeardman
Member
I'm hoping that vocal complaints about this first trial game will cause Nintendo to come up with a solution.
They changed Wii VC to add component cable support really early on, so I'm hopeful.
They changed Wii VC to add component cable support really early on, so I'm hopeful.
Bulbagarden
Member
Given that Nintendo talked about these initial games being a "Virtual Console Trial", it would not surprise me if this is exactly the kind of thing which will get fixed before the final proper releases. Kind of like how the initial 3DS Ambassador titles lacked certain features, and have been updated over time as those games have been released for sale to the public. Now I don't know if it was necessarily something they'd planned to change before now, but with the Miiverse clearly showing there's a strong demand for it from the players who are going to be early adopters of the Virtual Console (and effectively the Ambassadors encouraging others to try these games), this should spur them into action. It's one thing for them to ignore feedback being posted on random internet forums (which, no matter how large, aren't read by the majority of gamers who may be purchasing these things), but it's a whole different story when this feedback is coming to them through their own discussion platform.
Fabthegnome
Member
I put together a quick side by side comparison video [Wii U/3DS] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH3Gqsu_Kb0
it's not pretty. : [
it's not pretty. : [
Almost all PAL games pre-2005 ran 17% slower than their NTSC counterparts? Am I reading this right?
Holy shit. What in the world. How...what...?
I knew the screen resize/border thing was an issue, but I'd never read about widespread speed issues in almost all games. What a hellish situation you've all been putting up with if so. Man. This last gen must have been a revelation to European gamers, lol.
Holy shit. What in the world. How...what...?
I knew the screen resize/border thing was an issue, but I'd never read about widespread speed issues in almost all games. What a hellish situation you've all been putting up with if so. Man. This last gen must have been a revelation to European gamers, lol.
Neff
Member
Most people who knew about the difference imported. Once you've had it pointed out to you, and once you appreciate that you're not playing games the way they were created, you can never go back.
Arren
Member
If you agree that this is a very crippling issue (which it is, for the many reasons already stated) and you happen to wander on Miiverse, please look for user Meggie's latest post in the Balloon Flight group.
He's trying to gather as many 'yeah' and comments as possible, in order to make it noticeable by Nintendo and spread awareness on the matter directly on the Miiverse boards.
He's trying to gather as many 'yeah' and comments as possible, in order to make it noticeable by Nintendo and spread awareness on the matter directly on the Miiverse boards.
Hey look, there's me on the Miiverse image (third from top on the left).
Yeah, the Wii U using 50hz emulation is such a huge letdown.
The Wii itself was something of a mess between some games running at 60hz, and other weird combinations of stretching.
For a 'famicom' celebration and the launch of the service (albeit 'beta') it's really disappointing to see such a slow version of Balloon Fight.
Balloon Fight on the 3DS runs at full speed in Europe, right?
Yeah, the Wii U using 50hz emulation is such a huge letdown.
The Wii itself was something of a mess between some games running at 60hz, and other weird combinations of stretching.
For a 'famicom' celebration and the launch of the service (albeit 'beta') it's really disappointing to see such a slow version of Balloon Fight.
Balloon Fight on the 3DS runs at full speed in Europe, right?
2/10
Arren
Member
Yep, full speed and original pitch for the music! That's what makes it all the more disorienting, we already had an example of things going in the correct direction.
This isn't actually true for all of them. See this post by one of team responsible for localising Alundra.
EDIT: I see this has already been covered.
fixed, since the Dreamcast we have 60hz games
Well, if you don't see them side by side or haven't played the NTSC version you're blissfully ignorant. I only knew about it because Super Play would bring it up. Constantly.
Depends on the games. It's quite possible to produce a perfectly acceptable speed-corrected 50Hz PAL port.
In simple terms, assuming a perfect framerate:
PAL at 50FPS = Each frame represents 20ms of time
NTSC at 60FPS = Each frame represents 16.6ms of time
The problems come about when they don't *account* for that change in the conversion, so the PAL version takes 20ms for 16.6ms of time to elapse.
It's quite possible to instead adjust the code on the assumption that 20ms elapses each frame rather then 16.6ms. That said, though, it's worth adding a mention that that's much easier in polygon-based games (where interpolating to find what it looks like in the interim is trivial) rather than in sprite-based games (where you have to choose one sprite frame or another to display, you can't get the interim one)
Ikaruga on the Gamecube is a good example of a game with heavy sprite usage with a 'good' 50Hz conversion but still notable flaws; that simply skips every sixth frame of each sprite. If you're looking for it it *is* noticeable, so it's not completely perfect, but it is acceptable and plays at a decent rate as a result.
In this day and age, though, offering both choices strikes me as completely acceptable. Nintendo aren't averse to offering NTSC 60Hz content for download as long as they pile in plenty of warnings, but they do seem a little reluctant to do that for PAL-released VC titles. I wonder if they're simply averse to (effectively) giving you two copies of the game?
On the bright side, it's not *too* hard to build a 50/60Hz toggle switch for a Mega Drive; I've done it myself, and I'm terrible with a soldering iron.