XT Vengeance
Member
This. Life is only so sweet because it has an end.
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How do Atheist societies approach death?
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Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
Indeed. This is a very comforting truth about our limited existence.
Leatherface
Member
Fbh
Member
For me its this wierd thing.
One one side I do find it scary. I've had a few nights where I can't sleep because I just start thinking about death, about not existing and how nothing really matters since in the end we will die.
I do, of course, try to enjoy life. But it's a bit like... Imagine taking the best vacations ever knowing that right after you get home you will forget all about them..Would it really be worth it taking those vacations?
On the other hand, once you die that's it.
There is nothing to be scared about since you won't exists anymore.
So it's wierd...On one side I find it scary, on the other hand it really isn't.
I don't have kids but I think I would just be honest and tell them that it's the end. But that we remain in the memories of our loved ones.
One one side I do find it scary. I've had a few nights where I can't sleep because I just start thinking about death, about not existing and how nothing really matters since in the end we will die.
I do, of course, try to enjoy life. But it's a bit like... Imagine taking the best vacations ever knowing that right after you get home you will forget all about them..Would it really be worth it taking those vacations?
On the other hand, once you die that's it.
There is nothing to be scared about since you won't exists anymore.
So it's wierd...On one side I find it scary, on the other hand it really isn't.
I don't have kids but I think I would just be honest and tell them that it's the end. But that we remain in the memories of our loved ones.
Something living outside or reality isn't impossible when dealing with Gods.
It's all pedantic bullshit anyways when it comes to magic and supernatural bs.
capitalCORN
Member
Look at it this way. No matter how much in love with your partner you may be, they still do not see you the way you see yourself, and vice versa. It's a matter of 'understanding'. Life passes each and every moment. And your decisions are entirely predicated on what your knowledge allows, one that it unique to you, and you alone. The ground is real, grass is real, buildings are real. But this thing we call society? It's based on an implicit social contract.The world wasn't always this way, and each and every step of the way, it depended on the majority to agree with it to survive. The most real thing we have is consensus.
PancakeBurglar
Member
Actually I found it to be enlightening when I let go of my religious beliefs. No longer was I living my life to satisfy some god so they could let me into heaven, I truly started to live for myself after that point, I felt free.
Felix Lighter
Member
There is nothing quite as terrifying as the first moment you take the time to truly consider the idea of your consciousness not existing in any form anymore. I think I was 12 or 13 when it hit me and the dread that filled my mind was far more then I could handle. I could not sleep.
Even today, my way of dealing with it is to not fully consider it when it comes to mind. I know what I believe, death is the end, nothing more after, but even as I type this, I keep the thought on a surface level without thinking about what that truly means.
Even today, my way of dealing with it is to not fully consider it when it comes to mind. I know what I believe, death is the end, nothing more after, but even as I type this, I keep the thought on a surface level without thinking about what that truly means.
ghostofsparta
Member
Celebrate death. I know it's sad to lose someone you love but it's important to celebrate their life and all the memories you had together.
I imagine death is like the gaps in your sleep in between dreaming. It's just nothingness. It's not bad, it's not pain, it's literally nothing
Ghostshark
Member
If I have children, I'd have to tell them that "we don't really know." I'm more on the agnostic side, and my mindset is "nothing after death probably, but maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised." I don't worry about my mortality, but I would never raise my child to fear what happens after death. I'm probably going to say "we don't know what happens, a lot of people think there's heaven, some believe you come back as something else," or something comforting.
I'd want my kid to fear dying in order to survive, but not instill pure fear and nightmares. They can decide what to believe in on their own as they grow.
I'd want my kid to fear dying in order to survive, but not instill pure fear and nightmares. They can decide what to believe in on their own as they grow.
cpp_is_king
Member
Explain about the law of Conservation of Energy, that energy is neither created nor destroyed, and that is true for everything, even things which you don 't normally consider "energy". When you turn the lights off, the energy from the lights doesn't disappear, it's just stored at the power plant and can go to someone else's house instead. When you throw a banana peel on the ground and let it sit for a few weeks, it will look like it disappears, but all the particles get absorbed into the ground and used as fertilization to grow new plants.
Then you can explain that when a person dies the same thing happens. The person may appear gone but he/she just returns to the Earth and that energy is reused to create new people, plants, and animals. So in a way that person always remains.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
The definition of secular when used in context of someone who is religious means not belonging to a certain sect.
In no way does it mean anti-religion, but yes secular can mean that in different context.
I'll probably just deal with it, I guess. Not to be dark or anything but I'm already depressed and sometimes death actually feels comforting. I will admit that it was way easier to think about death when I was a Christian because I thought I would see all my loved ones in this great magical place and I'd be at peace. Now, I just hope for the latter, and whatever else comes with it is an added bonus. There is nothing I can do about my beliefs. I can't just magically start believing in a god again just so I can accept death.
A person isn't energy. A person is the functions of their brain. Just because your matter/energy stays behind when to die, doesn't mean "you" do.
But there is no "you" and the assertion of such thing is a source of delusion and misery. If I could interject, I believe that's what the other poster was alluding to.
You do not control your thoughts or emotions. There is no thinker to thought, a "surfer" to the "wave" of your organism. We assume that there is, and this is the most common illusion human beings fall into. This is what makes death so spooky: we think when the wave loses shape, the surfer vanishes. Well, there's no surfer, and almost all of our fear and anxiety is in the loss of this mirage. Where is the remorse for dead stars which, by their death, you live? This is no different than the loss of sentient life, for there's no vitalism creating a division between the death of stars and the death of men. We often don't realize this.
The problem here is in language and assertions of dualism as a starting point. Language helps us differentiate -- for example, there is me the writer here and you the reader -- but differentiation is not division, but we quickly, almost unconsciously, assume it as such. There's the "me" that is separate from you because that's "not me" and we create fuzzy boundaries. Free will is a common popup that comes from this, and on similar grounds, is wholly unfounded, even if most think "it's evident and real."
Pardon the Zen riddle, but the following poem is a pointer to what I am getting at.
Consider what "person" is derived of; persona. A mask. An image. In where in an image is there an entity of such a self as a self? We confuse the "map for the territory" in this way, for what we describe in description is not the whole reality, like how talking of love is not the same thing as love. Our images of people do not consider they are all manifestations or prior causes, for we almost always assert a degree of isolation or "freedom from prior causes" to people. All of that is unfounded thoughts.
GameAddict411
Member
Just tell your kids if they remember anything before being born. They will answer no, and tell that's how you will feel when you die. You cease to exist. It's like sleeping but never waking up. Eternal unconsciousness that has nothing to do with being in dark lifeless lonely place after death that might be commonly believed by some people or try to scare people with no faith.
cpp_is_king
Member
We're talking about explaining stuff to kids to allow them to cope with a loss. Kids have good imaginations
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
This is important.
The image we have of the dark vacuum of the after-life, where we imagine it as a scary and lonely place we're stuck forever, is often put into our heads by people who want us to believe in the alternative, which just happens to be their version of spirituality or religion. Don't fall for it, we have our own brains with which to think!
To answer the OP with a degree of seriousness - my parents, one of whom was spiritual in the broad sense, and the other a CofE person, answered my childish questions by saying "no one knows, here are some things people think".
I ended up a pretty certain atheist with a respect for the religion of others, which I reckon is a reasonable outcome.
I ended up a pretty certain atheist with a respect for the religion of others, which I reckon is a reasonable outcome.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
Where did pride come into what the poster talked about?
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
I literally voided your point earlier in this thread. It's remarkably presumptuous for you to assume you know our minds better than we do.
Muppet of a Man
Member
I think acknowleding oneself as an atheist is a political statement, and one that is for good reason: we should not allow the incredibly unlikely religious version of reality dictate the way we live and govern.
This is why atheism...defacto atheism in particular...is an incredibly powerful way of challenging/defying conventional hegemonic thinking.
There is literally an infinity of things we can't prove, specially if you want to prove the absence of something. Atheism is as much of a hard line as saying ghosts and pink elephants don't exist.
keltickennedy
Member
Family and loved ones continue to live through you. I take comfort in that.
Most atheists that I know of are agnostic atheists, atheism is a response to the question, "Do you believe in a god?" If the answer is no, then you are an atheist. Agnosticism and Atheism are not mutually exclusive terms in that way, you can say you do not know whether there is a god, but you do not believe in one and that is an agnostic atheist so in that sense its not such a hard line. It's a rejection of the god claims made by all religion. Beliefs should be supported by evidence.
Abstruse Moose
Member
Which is why it's important to observe the evidence and go wherever it leads, and to not assert anything that isn't objective.
As an atheist I want something proved. Believe nothing, know things.
sugarhigh4242
Banned
I disagree with this sort of scientific mysticism (sorry if that's an unfair categorization). I maintain a set of memories going back to a young age despite my continually dying cells. What dies is that continuity of consciousness. This is not a continuing process, it's a fundamental break equivalent to being born.
To take it a little further I think a person can effectively die long before their heart stops beating. People with advanced Alzheimers for example, gradually cease to exist as the person they were. It's an incredibly sad process, and one I'd prefer not to extend for myself.
sugarhigh4242
Banned
No atheist struggles with this hair-splitting. Humans have hypothesized several thousand gods throughout history. We can't definitively disprove any of them, but there's no particular reason to believe in any of them either.
This kind of argumentation generally serves to emphasize doubt where none is necessary. It's functionally similar to climate change denial, although I'd argue (reluctantly) that the climate denialists have a much stronger case than the theists.
I never grew up in a religious family. Both my parents are non-observing Catholics who either do not believe in god, or do not like organized region very much. As such, it was rare for me to go to church. Counting weddings, funerals, and everything else, I can count the number of times I went to church on my hands.
I remember the first time I thought of death and what happens after. I must have been 7 or 8 at the time, which to me seems young to have such thoughts, but who knows. I was reading a book on Roman culture, and the topic of gladiators came up. I cannot remember exactly what the book said, but the fact that many gladiators were killed came up. I remember thinking for the first time about what it really means to be killed, about what death is, and about what came after.
Needless to say, it was terrifying. Indeed, I broke into tears very soon afterwards, much to the confusion of my mother. According to her (I don't remember myself), I was too afraid to tell her what I was thinking, so instead I wrote a note saying:
My mom had seemingly no answer for this at first. Again, I was never raised religiously, so the topic of heaven never came up, or if it did, it was not the main topic. What I do remember is her loosely referencing the principle conservation of energy and first law of thermodynamics, which states "Energy and matter can never be created or destroyed, only change form".
Of course, to my 8 year old brain, I believe I took it as some sort of reincarnation. Certainly that made me feel better. It was only when I got older that I realized she was getting at something much more profound. We can only be alive because the energy and matter inside of us has been morphed by nature over millions of years to be able to think. Whether or not there is an afterlife, it is certain that my body will be there. Everything that made me, me will continue to exist, just not in a form that allows it to be able to contemplate on its existence. Likely, part of me will become part of someone else or even a multitude of people long after I'm gone. Of course, mater is indistinguishable on the smallest scale, so it wouldn't matter if it came for me or not, but it is an amazing thought.
The most wonderful thing in the entire world is not to be told what to think, such as when parents raise their kids with their religion, but how to think. It was because my parents raised me to question, learn, and change my opinion that I came to the conclusion of the previous paragraph. Being able to critically analyze the world around us and understand some small part of the laws of our universe is something no religion teaches and yet is more wonderful than any thought that religion has conceived.
I've shared this video a bunch of times whenever this topic comes up, and I feel as though I need to make use of it again:
Raising Kids Who Can Think
I am of the opinion that you should not isolate your children from religion. In fact, you should take your children to all sorts of different religions, ask them questions, and try to make them critical of their ideas and others. There is nothing inherently wrong with religion or being religious, what is wrong is when religion keeps you from thinking, as it does to so many.
If your children decide to follow a particular religion, that's fantastic! What I will try to keep from happening to my children is becoming blinded by said religion. There is no light of god that can outshine the universe. As long as they keep their eyes open to the beauties of this world, and know to question everything, it does not matter whether or not they follow any sort of religion.
I remember the first time I thought of death and what happens after. I must have been 7 or 8 at the time, which to me seems young to have such thoughts, but who knows. I was reading a book on Roman culture, and the topic of gladiators came up. I cannot remember exactly what the book said, but the fact that many gladiators were killed came up. I remember thinking for the first time about what it really means to be killed, about what death is, and about what came after.
Needless to say, it was terrifying. Indeed, I broke into tears very soon afterwards, much to the confusion of my mother. According to her (I don't remember myself), I was too afraid to tell her what I was thinking, so instead I wrote a note saying:
My mom had seemingly no answer for this at first. Again, I was never raised religiously, so the topic of heaven never came up, or if it did, it was not the main topic. What I do remember is her loosely referencing the principle conservation of energy and first law of thermodynamics, which states "Energy and matter can never be created or destroyed, only change form".
Of course, to my 8 year old brain, I believe I took it as some sort of reincarnation. Certainly that made me feel better. It was only when I got older that I realized she was getting at something much more profound. We can only be alive because the energy and matter inside of us has been morphed by nature over millions of years to be able to think. Whether or not there is an afterlife, it is certain that my body will be there. Everything that made me, me will continue to exist, just not in a form that allows it to be able to contemplate on its existence. Likely, part of me will become part of someone else or even a multitude of people long after I'm gone. Of course, mater is indistinguishable on the smallest scale, so it wouldn't matter if it came for me or not, but it is an amazing thought.
The most wonderful thing in the entire world is not to be told what to think, such as when parents raise their kids with their religion, but how to think. It was because my parents raised me to question, learn, and change my opinion that I came to the conclusion of the previous paragraph. Being able to critically analyze the world around us and understand some small part of the laws of our universe is something no religion teaches and yet is more wonderful than any thought that religion has conceived.
I've shared this video a bunch of times whenever this topic comes up, and I feel as though I need to make use of it again:
Raising Kids Who Can Think
I am of the opinion that you should not isolate your children from religion. In fact, you should take your children to all sorts of different religions, ask them questions, and try to make them critical of their ideas and others. There is nothing inherently wrong with religion or being religious, what is wrong is when religion keeps you from thinking, as it does to so many.
If your children decide to follow a particular religion, that's fantastic! What I will try to keep from happening to my children is becoming blinded by said religion. There is no light of god that can outshine the universe. As long as they keep their eyes open to the beauties of this world, and know to question everything, it does not matter whether or not they follow any sort of religion.
But memory is not "you." Thats appearances and impressions in awareness.
See, this is the mistake. You are not the contents of consciousness. Assuming you are is what creates a self, and if we need someone who is less on the domains of "mysticism" here, I'd strongly suggest listening to Sam Harris on this issue. One is more of the screen in which the contents appears, and again, that is not a self; that's not a thinker of thoughts, a fixed, carried entity of mind. That doesn't even feel like a self at all. The continuity you speak of is continuity of thought. Again, being blunt: that's not "you" at all. How are you a coming and going stream of reference points, which when we assert self, is asserted as permanent and only unleaving at death? This stream can be broken rather easily with enough discipline, even if only for moments at a time. For many, this is enough to see how notself is more one's reality.
In fact, if you meditate, Sam has a meditation actually emphasizing this inquiry into self. No idea if it'll help you, but I'd like to challenge some of the underlying points you're making of continuity, as I feel they assert a self as "real." It's the self that makes death spooky, and I believe my analogy of surfers to waves alluded to this a bit better, but that's a different post.
LookAtMeGo
Member
Death does
Kingpin Rogers
Member
With a terrible and crippling fear I imagine. I refuse to think about the fact that both myself and everybody I know will die otherwise it just keeps me up at night.
DeadlyParasite
Member
What's there to approach? You die, it ends. I can either get an ulcer from worrying about something I can't control or I can just live out my life and try to make the best of it.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
"by the time you're that old, you'll be ready to go."
my dad said something like that to me when i was 10, and it was actually pretty comforting.
additionally, your kid has a good shot at living until we figure out immortality. death isn't a forgone conclusion for anyone born today.
my dad said something like that to me when i was 10, and it was actually pretty comforting.
additionally, your kid has a good shot at living until we figure out immortality. death isn't a forgone conclusion for anyone born today.
BlazingDarkness
Member
Non religious societies use death and memorialisation as a means of affirming life. Generally funerals are now a means of celebrating a person's unique life rather than it being a means of sending them off to another place to be judged (by God, or their karma etc.)
Ancestor veneration even in places such as Japan is seeing some challenge by this revivalist sentiment which basically disarms the finality of death with this idea of immortalising a person by celebrating them in death as in life.
Ancestor veneration even in places such as Japan is seeing some challenge by this revivalist sentiment which basically disarms the finality of death with this idea of immortalising a person by celebrating them in death as in life.
///PATRIOT
Banned
Does anybody here find death intimidating as fascinating as well?
Is the ultimate experience, no matter how boring your life is, you are not prepared for this.
What does it feel like the last moment of consciousness or the void?
If you think about it, the one thing in universe that resemble death are black holes, once you cross it there is no turning back, the only way to see what is inside, is getting in.
Is the ultimate experience, no matter how boring your life is, you are not prepared for this.
What does it feel like the last moment of consciousness or the void?
If you think about it, the one thing in universe that resemble death are black holes, once you cross it there is no turning back, the only way to see what is inside, is getting in.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Do you remember what it was like the billions you years you didn't exist before you were born? No? That's exactly what it will be like after your die. A painless non-existence, just like before you were born.
Sure, it's still impossible to imagine not existing anymore, but if you think rationally about it there is no reason to be afraid.
But yes, also all the stuff about doing the best of the life you have.
Sure, it's still impossible to imagine not existing anymore, but if you think rationally about it there is no reason to be afraid.
But yes, also all the stuff about doing the best of the life you have.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
it's probably kind of like going to sleep. one minute your there and then you're not.
highrider
Banned
Yeah, I don't disagree, but I think objectivity alone is boring. For me it's not about faith or afterlife, but more viewing it as a potential adventure, however unlikely it is.
Doubt for me is preferable to pretending I know.
M0nochromatic
Member
I imagine atheists try to come to terms with it through various perspectives and philosophical musings, just like anyone else.
Personally, I respect the whole "ashes to ashes, star stuff to star stuff" approach, but it doesn't work in my experience. When something that I love dies, it no longer brings joy to my life that it once did. The tree that thrives on a dead friends corpse does not make it my friend, nor is it imbued with the value that his existence once held.
Personally, I respect the whole "ashes to ashes, star stuff to star stuff" approach, but it doesn't work in my experience. When something that I love dies, it no longer brings joy to my life that it once did. The tree that thrives on a dead friends corpse does not make it my friend, nor is it imbued with the value that his existence once held.
highrider
Banned
So you're saying they don't?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence was a great line from Hitchens, and I completely agree. My point is that we are dealing with different human interpretations of higher power in religion. Higher power by definition isn't something we are even capable of perceiving, and God isn't a singular entity but rather an abstract idea to me.
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