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PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread

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What's wrong with his comment?

He said that he will fix the welfare state of the very poor if needed but will be focusing on the middle class so they themselves don't fall into extreme poverty.

Fix the welfare state?

If by fix you mean gut, then you have some understanding of fiscal conservatism.

Republicans have one philosophy in regards to government social programs: they should be eliminated because they reward dependency and laziness. To do this, they will starve the Federal government of revenue to claim that we cannot afford them. Republicans are in a frenzy to take advantage of the recession, which they have not been able to get the most out of with Obama in the WH. If Romney wins, they will waste no time to 'starve the beast' and go after the social safety net.

Lose your illusions about any Conservative having any interest whatsoever in fixing, promoting or furthering any government social programs that could be referred to as 'entitlements' which protect those below poverty level and the lower middle class.
 
Romney won't be bothered by that statement. A central dogma of his ideology is that the "very poor" are in their position due to choice.
 
Romney being honest and a liar in one sentence again. Last I heard his policy is to cut social programs helping the very poor and wants to reduce the taxes on the very rich.

His sentence isn't taken out of context. It's the very definition of who Romney is.
 
Source? I doubt he has ever said or alluded to that.

The source is a basic belief of his ideology. The American Dream is available to anyone that works for it, regardless of one's circumstances. If you are poor, work yourself out of it. If you remain poor and rely on government social programs, then you are a lazy freeloader. Conservatives view government social programs as rewards for being pathologically dependent and lazy.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
The source is a basic belief of his ideology. The American Dream is available to anyone that works for it, regardless of one's circumstances. If you are poor, work yourself out of it. If you remain poor and rely on government social programs, then you are a lazy freeloader. Conservatives view government social programs as rewards for being pathologically dependent and lazy.

Like I said, source? He believes in the American Dream, yes, but I doubt he believes that all poor people are stupid and/or lazy.

Conservatives, in years past, had pushed for some of the highest gains to social programs since their inceptions. You cannot just say, "Mitt Romney is a multi-millionaire, he is against social programs and thinks that all poor people are lazy" without backing it up.
 
Like I said, source? He believes in the American Dream, yes, but I doubt he believes that all poor people are stupid and/or lazy.

Conservatives, in years past, had pushed for some of the highest gains to social programs since their inceptions. You cannot just say, "Mitt Romney is a multi-millionaire, he is against social programs and thinks that all poor people are lazy" without backing it up.

It's a basic belief of Conservatism. If he doesn't share it, I'm sure he wouldn't get in the way of his party's agenda.

And I didn't attribute his belief to his wealth.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
So the view that conservative ideology sees most instances of poverty as the results of choice is contentious? I just want to make sure of what you're asking me to validate.

Yes. Very few, although outspoken, people believe that poverty is a choice. Most would probably agree that it has to do with single-parent households, drug use, lack of education, crime, and so on. Whether that is actually true is another story, but not necessarily a choice to be poor. That is asinine, and even I am very critical of the thought processes of many/most conservatives.
 
Yes. Very few, although outspoken, people believe that poverty is a choice. Most would probably agree that it has to do with single-parent households, drug use, lack of education, crime, and so on. Whether that is actually true is another story, but not necessarily a choice to be poor. That is asinine, and even I am very critical of the thought processes of many/most conservatives.

An outspoken few? lol, where do you get this stuff
 
Yes. Very few, although outspoken, people believe that poverty is a choice. Most would probably agree that it has to do with single-parent households, drug use, lack of education, crime, and so on.

The hell? You just provided a litany of things one can CHOOSE to engage in. So your'e telling me that the bulk of conservatives think poverty is predominately caused by outside factors?
 
Poor people are on Medicaid, they get UE benefits, they're on welfare, etc. - while middle class folk who play by the rules pay for it all and get nothing in return.

As a Canadian, that tenet pisses me off. I saw a homeless man passed out yesterday in the bus terminal get pulled into a stretcher and whisked away to the hospital.

I'm by no means a rich person (45k income) but I don't get the least bit upset that some of my taxes were paying towards the medical health of a person I may never meet or know personally. I wonder if a far right Republican would actually get upset seeing what I saw (i.e. his tax dollars are paying for his recovery - that vile germ!)
 
One of the more striking things about the primary is how Romney's favorables have tanked; he's almost at Newt levels.

I used to like Romney. Not "run out and vote" like but "if he wins, it wont be so bad".

Now, I really dislike him and dont want him anywhere near the office.
 

Puddles

Banned
His point is not valid and further complicated by his plans to restrict and cut the security net. But I definitely think this is being overblown considering this is basically a tenet of US republican politics today. Poor people are on Medicaid, they get UE benefits, they're on welfare, etc. - while middle class folk who play by the rules pay for it all and get nothing in return.

They get plenty in return!

They don't have to walk through streets abounding with diseased homeless. They generally don't have to worry about getting mugged. Their children will grow up among peers who had a better chance at getting an education because their families weren't completely desperate. Some of these peers might make contributions to society in the future that improve life for everyone.

All these right-wingers who want to gut the safety net and ignore the negative externalities of poverty should visit a country that does that and see just how awesome it is.
 

RDreamer

Member
As a Canadian, that tenet pisses me off. I saw a homeless man passed out yesterday in the bus terminal get pulled into a stretcher and whisked away to the hospital.

I'm by no means a rich person (45k income) but I don't get the least bit upset that some of my taxes were paying towards the medical health of a person I may never meet or know personally. I wonder if a far right Republican would actually get upset seeing what I saw (i.e. his tax dollars are paying for his recovery - that vile germ!)

Most conservatives wouldn't really have a problem with that. The thing that seems to happen with these conservative ideologies is that they think a very large portion of people are gaming the system. When they see people that do genuinely need it or they themselves need it, then that's an exception to the rule in their minds.

Yes. Very few, although outspoken, people believe that poverty is a choice. Most would probably agree that it has to do with single-parent households, drug use, lack of education, crime, and so on. Whether that is actually true is another story, but not necessarily a choice to be poor. That is asinine, and even I am very critical of the thought processes of many/most conservatives.

I'm not going to go ahead and blanket say that conservatives believe all poverty is choice, because that's silly, but I don't think you can say very few... It really is part of the conservative worldview that if you work hard you get higher on the ladder. A large portion thinks that's how it is in black and white. So if you're not higher on the ladder you didn't work hard enough, and if you are high on the ladder you did work hard enough. Maybe they don't believe it's choice per say, but they do believe a lot might be lazy or just haven't worked hard enough.

I mean this is the same party that has people like Santorum, who said flat out that people die in this country from lack of healthcare because of their poor choices.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Romney really has a hard time relating to the 99.9%.
 
Romney's probably not turning around that 28/56 spread in Ohio any time soon.

I think this election is Obama's to lose. Things just need to keep getting better, and hopefully he'll put MO, MT, and ND into play, giving the Senate candidates there some decent coattails. (Maybe NE too, if he picks up a congressional district again, and Bob Kerrey jumps in)
 
I'm not going to go ahead and blanket say that conservatives believe all poverty is choice, because that's silly, but I don't think you can say very few... It really is part of the conservative worldview that if you work hard you get higher on the ladder. A large portion thinks that's how it is in black and white. So if you're not higher on the ladder you didn't work hard enough, and if you are high on the ladder you did work hard enough. Maybe they don't believe it's choice per say, but they do believe a lot might be lazy or just haven't worked hard enough.

I mean this is the same party that has people like Santorum, who said flat out that people die in this country from lack of healthcare because of their poor choices.

It goes deeper than that. It's more than prosperity, it's morality as well. If you are wealthy, that means not only did you work hard but you must have lived a moral life to have that work ethic, that drive to achieve. If you are poor, you didn't work hard enough and/or did not live a moral life to have the work ethic to achieve success. Prosperity = morality.

The wealthy are put on a pedestal- the American Dream achieved through hard work and living a good life. They are the job providers. The poor are looked down upon, living off of the government, which is due to their lack of morals.

Christian values plays an important role. This is the path to having the essential morality in order to achieve the American Dream.

This is all to some varying degree based on the Conservative, but it is central to the Conservative worldview.
 

KtSlime

Member
Romney really has a hard time relating to the 99.9%.

I think you mean the 99.994%. And yeah, he really does. I live off of less in a year than he makes in interest in an 8 hour "work" day, and a little more than a full day would get me pretty close to paying off the rest of my student debts.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
http://www.npr.org/programs/specials/poll/poverty/results.html

Look through this. Everyone wants to demonize conservatives and/or republicans for saying that the poor are that way because they do won't hard enough, but it looks like a pretty damn widespread belief.

Please read through the whole thing before commenting.

I will say that I misstated the fact that only a few say that poor people are lazy, it looks like 50% of people think so. Many more, however stated that things like drugs were a bigger cause of poverty.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
I think you mean the 99.994%. And yeah, he really does. I live off of less in a year than he makes in interest in an 8 hour "work" day, and a little more than a full day would get me pretty close to paying off the rest of my student debts.

WOW. you have like 40k in student debts? Damn, man.
 

KtSlime

Member
WOW. you have like 40k in student debts? Damn, man.

More, and yeah it sucks. The economy crashed lost my job, but decided to stay in school and get a second degree hoping we would have recovered by the time I was finished. In retrospect probably not my most fiscally responsible choice.
 
http://www.npr.org/programs/specials/poll/poverty/results.html

Look through this. Everyone wants to demonize conservatives and/or republicans for saying that the poor are that way because they do won't hard enough, but it looks like a pretty damn widespread belief.

Please read through the whole thing before commenting.

I will say that I misstated the fact that only a few say that poor people are lazy, it looks like 50% of people think so. Many more, however stated that things like drugs were a bigger cause of poverty.

This is completely pointless because it doesn't measure how people think by ideology. The country is more or less 50% split on being "left" or "right" (like most countries are). For all we know, 90% of that 50% could identify as conservative or right wing.

Let me tell you: it sucks balls.

Yeah I'll end up with a tad bit more. The thing is though it was a result of me directly listening to my Mom and others. I remember I was very wary of taking out a lot of money for my first year and college. When I asked for advice from my family? "Don't worry about it! You'll be able to pay it off fine. You can consolidate your loans. Just concentrate on finishing school first!"

They were so scared of me turning out like my brother (going to school for years but never finishing) that they were willing to push me to go to school in nearly any circumstance. The sad part is that I was always planning to go, just didn't want to spend too much money.

And for note I haven't taken out a single loan since 2 years ago. I have been paying solely by pocket. And even then its going up due to the high interest. It made me realize to never trust anybody but yourself, especially when it comes to finances.
 
http://www.npr.org/programs/specials/poll/poverty/results.html

Look through this. Everyone wants to demonize conservatives and/or republicans for saying that the poor are that way because they do won't hard enough, but it looks like a pretty damn widespread belief.

Please read through the whole thing before commenting.

I will say that I misstated the fact that only a few say that poor people are lazy, it looks like 50% of people think so. Many more, however stated that things like drugs were a bigger cause of poverty.


Around 40% of Americans consider themselves a Conservative. It is a widespread ideology. This would be an interesting poll split up between Liberal and Conservative.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
my wife came out with 110k 7 years ago

WOW... she better not have a liberal arts degree or anything making less than 70 or 80k a year (and even then, that it WAYYYYYY too much)

I have 7k in student debt and thought that was bad. :p

I bootstrapped my way through much college. /badhumor
 
Ohhhhh...so why do you think people are poor, then? Outside of healthcare costs, of course.

I took the choices part out of my post, it wasn't clear what I meant. I meant it is viewed as a black and white morality choice by Conservatives. I don't really see drug use as a choice in the context of poverty, but as a reality. The circumstances of poverty goes beyond personal choices.
 

bananas

Banned
Damn, I'm only 12k in debt.

Don't have to start paying it off until Dec 2013, though. So I'm not too worried about it.
 

Puddles

Banned
Say what you want about the uselessness of my liberal arts degree, but I only went $12k into debt to get it. Down to $9k now.
 
The problem with conservatives is that so many are actually blind to those of lower means.

I frankly, dont understand it.

Every conservative can tell you about the mythical welfare queen, or the drugged out homeless guy.

But everyone making minimum wage? (Aka: Poverty) Its like they dont exist.

Heres an example. There is a proposal here to make a better bus line connecting the poor south side of town, with a main shopping area in the rich area of town.

Most of the comments in the news article were as follows:

"What a waste of money, the poor people from the south cant even afford a single item at that mall, so why spend money to bus them here?"

Besides being hateful, the people giving the comments apparently are completely blind to the fact that the mall probably employs over 1,000 minimum wage employees.

1,000 minimum wage employees which probably live in the poorer part of town.

But it's like they don't exist.

Another similar one is when you discuss transit + overnight hours. Again, people will jump in saying things like "theres no reason to be out after midnight"

Completely ignoring the fact that those 24 hours mcdonalds and taco bells arent staffed by robots, and that office buildings dont clean themselves.

To these people "the help" simply dont exist, unless they've just screwed up.

Thats the problem.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
Say what you want about the uselessness of my liberal arts degree, but I only went $12k into debt to get it. Down to $9k now.

I think liberal arts degrees are fine, as long as the person realizes that most times, they are not going to be making what an engineer is going to make. When someone goes to get a 40-60k/yr liberal arts degree and racks up 100k of debt, I have to scratch my head.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
The Obama administration announced Wednesday that the Medicare Advantage program, which allows seniors to receive health coverage through a private insurer, is enjoying lower costs and more customers as a result of the health care reform law.

Medicare Advantage enrollment has risen 10 percent over the last year while average premiums have fallen by 7 percent, said Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius. She also pointed out that similar improvements were seen the previous year.

The figures bolster President Obama’s defense of his signature achievement, and for Democrats it has the added bonus of refuting earlier Republican warnings that “Obamacare” would gravely undermine the choice provisions in Medicare.
And yet another GOP talking point about the health care bill bites the dust. Or not, they'll keep repeating it anyways.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...medicare-advantage-apparently-not.php?ref=fpa
 
Erick Erikson pointed out that Romney is not only the type of republican Obama's administration would create in a lab to run against, he revels in it; there's nothing wrong with being proud of success, but Romney acts like some rapper complaining about other rappers "hating" on his riches. The economy just might be shitty enough for Romney to win, but if things continue to get better it's hard to see him competing. And once he secures the nomination we'll see more interviews and off the cuff errors like this, the $10k bet, corporations are people, etc.

I definitely believe Obama doesn't resonate with many blue collar workers, but there's a general feeling that he's a good guy and trustworthy.

This would have been the perfect year for Christie to run and win...
 

KtSlime

Member
I think liberal arts degrees are fine, as long as the person realizes that most times, they are not going to be making what an engineer is going to make. When someone goes to get a 40-60k/yr liberal arts degree and racks up 100k of debt, I have to scratch my head.

Some people simply do not care which degree will make them the most money, or get them the largest return. If people enjoy reading Suetonius* over some engineers field manual, shouldn't they be able to do so?

*I have a minor in Classics which is probably of less use than a McDonalds Hamburger University certification.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
Some people simply do not care which degree will make them the most money, or get them the largest return. If people enjoy reading Suetonius* over some engineers field manual, shouldn't the be able to do so?

*I have a minor in Classics which is probably of less use than a McDonalds Hamburger University certification.

They should be able to do so, but they should be able to pay back those student loans, too. Occupiers screaming about student loans that they willingly took to obtain degrees in Spanish Lit don't make sense to me.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
And yet another GOP talking point about the health care bill bites the dust. Or not, they'll keep repeating it anyways.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...medicare-advantage-apparently-not.php?ref=fpa

Awesome news.

Health care costs needs to be fixed, ASAP. It's not just the insurance companies--it's the hospitals, too. Just got the bills for our recent baby and made sure to get a detailed list of charges. Saw several charges that were either misrepresented or flat out lies (Over $1000 for using a "sterile operating room" for the circumcision--the performing doctor confirmed she just did it in the nursery where other parents and guests are able to come in and stand next to the babies, etc). It's crazy.
 

KtSlime

Member
They should be able to do so, but they should be able to pay back those student loans, too. Occupiers screaming about student loans that they willingly took to obtain degrees in Spanish Lit don't make sense to me.

First of all, student loans are a joke. They should not exist, education should be provided by the state, and there are countries that do it very well and we should follow their lead. Loans that are out should be able to be paid back, they should be able to be paid back even with the lowest jobs. Not everyone can make it in their feild, and to doom the people that can't to a lifetime of debt is stupid. Perhaps if schools really want to be businesses they should have a money back return policy - guarantee people work in their feild or absolve the debt. Schools and lenders hold no responsibility currently. They convince everyone to pay money, and then once the well is dried up the school prints a piece of paper and says "fuck off", that is unless you make it big, then they will send you letters asking for donations.

What's wrong with Spanish Lit? Would you rather everyone get a degree in engineering and we simply become robots? Forget about the humanities, humans don't need them.

Sorry, I'm not really trying to take it out on you, just all the idiots that tell me I should have gotten a nursing degree or something I don't care about simply because I may be able to get that elusive 11$/h job.
 

Puddles

Banned
Awesome news.

Health care costs needs to be fixed, ASAP. It's not just the insurance companies--it's the hospitals, too. Just got the bills for our recent baby and made sure to get a detailed list of charges. Saw several charges that were either misrepresented or flat out lies (Over $1000 for using a "sterile operating room" for the circumcision--the performing doctor confirmed she just did it in the nursery where other parents and guests are able to come in and stand next to the babies, etc). It's crazy.

The distinction between care and coverage is lost on many people. Sure, a public health system would save on administrative costs vs dozens of individual insurers, but the cost of care is out of control.

There needs to be a whole lot more transparency in medical billing. Overcharges run rampant and shouldn't be allowed. More transparency would make it easier to find the most egregious moneysinks and work to make them more cost-effective.

We also need to start paying less for prescription drugs and get skinnier as a nation.
 
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