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Rogue One vs. The Force Awakens | LFTS video essay.

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Aside from the fact the two films have two pretty different aims (and structures) it shouldn't be a surprise that The Force Awakens is better written than Rogue One simply by looking at the credited writers.

The surprise would be if Rogue One was widely seen as having the better screenplay.

Where the comparison between the two films gets interesting is in the way those two different stories/styles are executed by their respective creative teams.

Saw the video pop up earlier today. It's good stuff.
 
Rogue One had a lot more freedom to tell its story in the Star wars universe. TFA had baggage and a tight production deadline. RO is the better movie because of that.
 
I can't fault him on this. I really enjoyed both although I like Rogue One more, it did feel like some scenes went nowhere.

I agree the second half is far better.
 

ODDI

Member
It was narratively pointless and James Earl Jones delivered all his lines like he was winded.

I really, really liked Rogue One but that particular scene wasn't the greatest.
Had to ask I never felt the scene was bad or whatever I actually thought it was one of the better highlights of the film.
 

MMarston

Was getting caught part of your plan?
Don't remember who originally speculated this in some SW threads a while back, but I really dig the theory that Rey changes her hair in TLJ (as seen in some promo material so far) as a way of letting go of her family, as she accepts that does not need to be recognized anymore. Regardless, I'd really like to explore that "lie" of her's some more.
 
Dumb? What's so dumb about it?

It hangs a lantern on Rouge One's main problem. The film has an insecurity about it. It constantly tries so hard to cram in Star Wars references and cameos to connect it to the main series.

It feels like one of the old expanded universe book because of it. The middle Vader scene was the second most jarring scene, with the C-3PO cameo being the most craven. The Vader scene also undercuts a lot of the impact of his other appearance. The film is already straining to find screen time to tell it's story. The ensemble feels underdeveloped as it is. The fact that we waste time showing Vader brooding in his fortress of solitude instead of working on meaningful character relationships shows where the film makers' priorities were.
 
It was narratively pointless and James Earl Jones delivered all his lines like he was winded.

I really, really liked Rogue One but that particular scene wasn't the greatest.

I agree. I finally watched the movie yesterday and really enjoyed it. More than TFA actually. But the movie would have been better without that scene. It really did nothing plot wise, Vader's costume looked dumb in that scene, and I believe saving the Vader reveal for that final scene would have made the already strong scene even stronger.
 

Foggy

Member
Always strange to see/read stuff from screenwriters because there's a wealth of insight and perspective from something that is a fraction of the bigger picture. Leaves me wanting more.
 

EGM1966

Member
Good analysis. Personally I think the issues with both films can be summed up pretty neatly from a couple of the key points he makes:


  • Rouge One has the right second half for a "men on a mission" film and really delivers a nicely constructed big mission with mounting complications but it pretty much completely messes up the first half with too much unnecessary action across multiple, confused vignettes and does a pretty weak job with its characters as a result which eats into the end impact.
  • The Force Awakens does a great job setting up the characters and really shines in their interaction and behavior. However it muddles second half with an unnecessary and crazily compressed re-run of A New Hope's super weapon plot thread while trying to spin one too many characters/plot threads. Had they cut StarKiller base and simply set up all the same characters and arcs and stuck to the search for Luke as the core plot driver instead of abruptly cutting it to Death Star 3.0 instead the film could have been really terrific vs good with some great moments
Both though do show a lot of promise (and some good characters and action) but I feel they need to really pin down the scripts better and get a more consistent narrative going.

That said the trailer for Last Jedi looks very cohesive thematically so I'm hoping it delivers in this area in particular.
 

cj_iwakura

Member
Aside from the fact the two films have two pretty different aims (and structures) it shouldn't be a surprise that The Force Awakens is better written than Rogue One simply by looking at the credited writers.

The surprise would be if Rogue One was widely seen as having the better screenplay.
That is how I feel though. The Force Awakens had terrible world building.
 

99Luffy

Banned
It was narratively pointless and James Earl Jones delivered all his lines like he was winded.

I really, really liked Rogue One but that particular scene wasn't the greatest.
I thought it was hilarious. I feel thats what they were going for though in a self aware kind of way. I always thought the force choke scene in the OT was funny and over the years it was parodied to hell.
 

The Pope

Member
Rewatched Rogue One and liked it way better the second time around. Had the opposite reaction with TFA.

I was literally just about to make a thread about this. I even wrote a draft. In isolation TFA is serviceable at best but in the context of the Star Wars Universe it as much a travesty as the Prequels if not greater. Whilst the Prequels lesson the value of characters, TFA actually weakens the entire universe. TFA is one big cash grab and is the definition of manufactured. Rogue One actually contributes to the Universe whilst TFA has crippled it's trilogy by laying such baffling groundwork for the sake of nostalgia.
Edit: Watching Now I agree. TFA has a pretty strong start whilst Rogue One is convoluted but damn does Rogue One make up for it despite thin side characters. I disagree that TFA characters are any better constructed. Fin is reduced to comedic black guy and his motivations irrational and contradictory.
Edit 2: I also only realized how manufactured, unimaginative and uninspired TFA on my second watching in the cinema. Fuck the Resistance, Republic, First Order. The way they set up the whole conflict, the Star Killer base etc. is just awful. Why the fuck did they need a Resistance - nostalgia that is why. Red Letter Media and Mr Plinkett really shat the bed.
Edit 3: Finished Watching after dinner but I disagree with the conclusion. I thought, despite its flaws, that Rogue One was better than TFA.
 
I thought that brain reading scene and having him doubt the information calling it a trap showed off how loony and paranoid he was getting.
 

Pusherman

Member
This essay came right on time. I watched Rogue One for the first time last night and was surprised I actually enjoyed TFA more, a movie I didn't really like in the first place.
 

ultracal31

You don't get to bring friends.
Weird timing as this essay and the RLM commentary coming out around the same time

I have the opinion of I like both while recognizing the issues with them
 

Enduin

No bald cap? Lies!
Watched this earlier, very good analysis.

The flaws and certain story elements of TFA are problematic. The entire Star Killer Base idea was just not good, though watching it was entertaining. But at the end of the day, whatever flaws TFA had they were not big enough to detract from a compelling cast of characters and setup for a larger new trilogy. And that's a leg up RO never had. TFA has the ability to improve and build upon what was done right and fix what was done wrong in the next two movies. There is something to look forward to as the story is not yet fully told. But RO had only one shot.

And it blew it, the entire film was just pointless. The very story itself of the stealing the Death Star plans is a story that did not need to be told, though I am fine with them trying to do so, but it just made it that much harder for them to make it a compelling story. And when it came to the element that matter most, they did fuck all to develop the characters or give anyone agency at all, least of all Jyn. That turn around from the death of Galen to Jyn's speech on Yavin killed the movie for me. Up to that point the film was pretty meh but hopefully building up, but once I heard that speech I realized they had no idea what they were doing, how to write characters or build up an interesting story.

While RO was a great looking movie, with a promising premise of expanding upon the Star Wars universe, it was dull and lifeless. Failing to do anything interesting with a story that didn't need to be told, but still could have proved to be an interesting one had it been made by someone who knew what they were doing. Unlike TFA, RO's flaws ruined the film. The final battle may have been a lot of fun and really exciting, but it lacked any emotional impact and left me thinking "who gives a shit."
 

TheXbox

Member
Aside from the fact the two films have two pretty different aims (and structures) it shouldn't be a surprise that The Force Awakens is better written than Rogue One simply by looking at the credited writers.

The surprise would be if Rogue One was widely seen as having the better screenplay.

Where the comparison between the two films gets interesting is in the way those two different stories/styles are executed by their respective creative teams.

Saw the video pop up earlier today. It's good stuff.
What's the distinction here? Writing = dialogue, screenplay = structure?
 
Watched this earlier, very good analysis.

The flaws and certain story elements of TFA are problematic. The entire Star Killer Base idea was just not good, though watching it was entertaining. But at the end of the day, whatever flaws TFA had they were not big enough to detract from a compelling cast of characters and setup for a larger new trilogy. And that's a leg up RO never had. TFA has the ability to improve and build upon what was done right and fix what was done wrong in the next two movies. There is something to look forward to as the story is not yet fully told. But RO had only one shot.

And it blew it, the entire film was just pointless. The very story itself of the stealing the Death Star plans is a story that did not need to be told, though I am fine with them trying to do so, but it just made it that much harder for them to make it a compelling story. And when it came to the element that matter most, they did fuck all to develop the characters or give anyone agency at all, least of all Jyn. That turn around from the death of Galen to Jyn's speech on Yavin killed the movie for me. Up to that point the film was pretty meh but hopefully building up, but once I heard that speech I realized they had no idea what they were doing, how to write characters or build up an interesting story.

While RO was a great looking movie, with a promising premise of expanding upon the Star Wars universe, it was dull and lifeless. Failing to do anything interesting with a story that didn't need to be told, but still could have proved to be an interesting one had it been made by someone who knew what they were doing. Unlike TFA, RO's flaws ruined the film. The final battle may have been a lot of fun and really exciting, but it lacked any emotional impact and left me thinking "who gives a shit."

Fantastic post. Couldn't agree more.
 

OmegaFax

Member
Weird timing as this essay and the RLM commentary coming out around the same time

I have the opinion of I like both while recognizing the issues with them

I was thinking the same thing. I liked RLM's commentary. I did start skipping around to different parts of it to hear their take on some scenes.

I don't agree with this video commentary about Rogue One regaining its momentum and purpose during the second half, especially pointing out all the flaws in Jyn's character that ultimately gives them a clear goal.

My big problem with "infiltrating" the Imperial base, which I think RLM touched on, is that they did the entire opposite of being spies. They blow up various parts of the base, created confusion, and ultimately had the base put on lockdown. On top of that, the Rebel Fleet forced the Imperial forces to close the Shield Gate.

The other thing that bugs me about Rogue One is K2-S0's optimal route to the data vault. I genuinely think this is a consequence of putting the communications tower and the data vault in the same location in script rewrites (which looked like two different places in the earliest teaser).

Krennic and his two personal guards use a catwalk to access a utility door to the data vault + there's an express elevator that Krennic uses to get to the top (avoiding that weird door obstacle and Kyn Jyn/Cassian use elevator to get down. It's not like Jyn or Cassian were locked out K2-S0 managed to forge the handprint scanner (and didn't use the dead Imperial Officer's hand that K2-S0 clobbered to get to the access panel?).

tl;dr the vault sequence was stupid and didn't make any sense and it kind of took me out of the movie because it felt like whoever assembled the edit or rewrote the film hit a brick wall and just wanted to get to Vader cutting one up and the Leia CGI thing.

Edit: I never understood why, after they landed on Scarif and subdued the Imperial Officer, the Ninja-ish Tie Pilot, and two Stormtroopers ... why didn't any of the other Rebel troops steal those uniforms in order to help Jyn and Cassian?
 

Bolivar687

Banned
Good analysis. Personally I think the issues with both films can be summed up pretty neatly from a couple of the key points he makes:


  • Rouge One has the right second half for a "men on a mission" film and really delivers a nicely constructed big mission with mounting complications but it pretty much completely messes up the first half with too much unnecessary action across multiple, confused vignettes and does a pretty weak job with its characters as a result which eats into the end impact.
  • The Force Awakens does a great job setting up the characters and really shines in their interaction and behavior. However it muddles second half with an unnecessary and crazily compressed re-run of A New Hope's super weapon plot thread while trying to spin one too many characters/plot threads. Had they cut StarKiller base and simply set up all the same characters and arcs and stuck to the search for Luke as the core plot driver instead of abruptly cutting it to Death Star 3.0 instead the film could have been really terrific vs good with some great moments
Both though do show a lot of promise (and some good characters and action) but I feel they need to really pin down the scripts better and get a more consistent narrative going.

This is what I was thinking while watching this.
 

Pizza

Member
Here are my thoughts:

I liked how Jyn's story was unfolded through character interactions: outside luke, thats how ALL the OT characters were established. Same with Finn in TFA. Yes Rey gets a Luke intro, but thats because she's the protag of the next saga.

Jyn didnt react to the list of prior crimes because she doesnt know why shes even there. She also was surprised when the Alliance had split ties with Saw. I feel like Jyn is a passive protagonist up until she sees her dad. Shes literally forced to go meet up with Saw. Which is fine! Her and Rey arent the same person. Jyn goes from "we need you around" to Jyn leading a suicide mission. Shes also hopeless up until she sees her dad. The rebirth of hope is a huge underlying thread in R1

Jyn figures out her adopted family isnt coming back way faster then Rey.

The second half of R1 is simple because its the climax. The consequences of the squid scene is that the pilot is telling the truth objectively and Saw still feels as if it's a trap.

The death of Jyn's father is the inciting incident for her trying to personally rally the rebellion to her cause, despite Cassian. Also, her and Cassian's body language was totally intentional: they look at each other noticeably differently as the movie progresses. Jyn was abandoned and hopeless up until she had a reason to hope.

Rogue One was a one-off short storywhere I feel like it wouldve been a waste to make it "Jyn the movie." I felt like the characters they met on Jetta could have been fleshed out more. They were just sort of around. But(!) this was a short story, and I didnt NEED much for them. Saw realizes that he couldnt escape, and had brought the destruction of his forces on himself.

TFA had an entirely different goal as a film. It was meant to be the jumping off point of a new arc of star wars. I understand much of the plot is covered in the books, but the movie had a vague premise. The characters are very very strong, and carry the weak plot. Blowing up the 20x death star that we suddenly have the plans to constructed by a new empire we know nothing about LOOKS cool. But we dont know much.

Why did starkiler base choose that day to blow up coruscant? was there a senate meeting? did they just chop off the heads of tons of planetary governments simultaneously?

I know this information is out there, because I know some of these answers. TFA didnt provide those answers to me. Its still a really good star wars movie though, and I found all the characters compelling. Hopefully TFA was an intro to the characters, and TLJ expands on the world some.

Also all the Vader scenes in R1 were great. In the new canon he's often cracking jokes and shit and I liked him chocking a guy as a joke. Also he builds his castle(!) on Volcano Planet and his office is a dangerous walkway over a void. "Are you nervous?" was awesome.
 
Watched this earlier, very good analysis.

The flaws and certain story elements of TFA are problematic. The entire Star Killer Base idea was just not good, though watching it was entertaining. But at the end of the day, whatever flaws TFA had they were not big enough to detract from a compelling cast of characters and setup for a larger new trilogy. And that's a leg up RO never had. TFA has the ability to improve and build upon what was done right and fix what was done wrong in the next two movies. There is something to look forward to as the story is not yet fully told. But RO had only one shot.

And it blew it, the entire film was just pointless. The very story itself of the stealing the Death Star plans is a story that did not need to be told, though I am fine with them trying to do so, but it just made it that much harder for them to make it a compelling story. And when it came to the element that matter most, they did fuck all to develop the characters or give anyone agency at all, least of all Jyn. That turn around from the death of Galen to Jyn's speech on Yavin killed the movie for me. Up to that point the film was pretty meh but hopefully building up, but once I heard that speech I realized they had no idea what they were doing, how to write characters or build up an interesting story.

While RO was a great looking movie, with a promising premise of expanding upon the Star Wars universe, it was dull and lifeless. Failing to do anything interesting with a story that didn't need to be told, but still could have proved to be an interesting one had it been made by someone who knew what they were doing. Unlike TFA, RO's flaws ruined the film. The final battle may have been a lot of fun and really exciting, but it lacked any emotional impact and left me thinking "who gives a shit."

Well said. Mostly agree with that. I felt I got as much out of Rogue One as I did from Blur's Old Republic trailers.
 
Good video and I agree with his analysis at the script level however overall as a film, and mind you I only watched them once; I thought Rogue One was better than The Force Awakens.
 

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
It hangs a lantern on Rouge One's main problem. The film has an insecurity about it. It constantly tries so hard to cram in Star Wars references and cameos to connect it to the main series.
You're not wrong, but TFA was so much worse when it comes to being crammed full of blatant 'hey guys, remember star wars?' callouts and pandering.
 

MMarston

Was getting caught part of your plan?
You're not wrong, but TFA was so much worse when it comes to being crammed full of blatant 'hey guys, remember star wars?' callouts and pandering.

How so?


Rogue One was way more egregious in this regard, especially given its timeline -- I mean, they cut-away just for the sake of R2/3PO for pete's sake. TFA had nothing but split second callbacks, some of which were blink and miss. The only nostalgia joke that actually got time to stew was the trash compactor.
 

Tookay

Member
How so?


Rogue One was way more egregious in this regard, especially given its timeline -- I mean, they cut-away just for the sake of R2/3PO for pete's sake. TFA had nothing but split second callbacks, some of which were blink and miss. The only nostalgia joke that actually got time to stew was the trash compactor.

It isn't just the callbacks. TFA has its entire premise based around nostalgia pandering, reducing the good guys to being rebels again, relying upon the same starfighter designs after thirty years, turning the Jedi to ashes, replacing the emperor with a new Palpatine-esque figure, introducing another Death Star that must be stopped. It squanders whatever promise a ROTJ sequel could have had by resetting the state of the universe back to ANH's status quo.

It was cowardly and way more egregious than any three second cameo of Threepio and Artoo.
 

WillyFive

Member
I used to think TFA had the better characters and Rogue One had the better story; but this video shows that TFA had the better story too. Turns out what I was feeling was that TFA simply had an old story and Rogue One had a new one.
 

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
How so?


Rogue One was way more egregious in this regard, especially given its timeline -- I mean, they cut-away just for the sake of R2/3PO for pete's sake. TFA had nothing but split second callbacks, some of which were blink and miss. The only nostalgia joke that actually got time to stew was the trash compactor.
Sheer number of times. Hell they even brought back Landos co-pilot from the second death star run just for a few seconds of 'heeeeeeeey remember this star wars guy?'

Rogue one was far from perfect in this regard, but atleast it could go twenty minutes without a wink and a nudge.
 
It hangs a lantern on Rouge One's main problem. The film has an insecurity about it. It constantly tries so hard to cram in Star Wars references and cameos to connect it to the main series.

It feels like one of the old expanded universe book because of it. The middle Vader scene was the second most jarring scene, with the C-3PO cameo being the most craven. The Vader scene also undercuts a lot of the impact of his other appearance. The film is already straining to find screen time to tell it's story. The ensemble feels underdeveloped as it is. The fact that we waste time showing Vader brooding in his fortress of solitude instead of working on meaningful character relationships shows where the film makers' priorities were.

What? Lol they showed a lot of restraint from using Star Wars characters unless they were necessary to the plot at that point in the timeline. They could have had Vader in way more scenes and the Emperor too but they showed just enough of him to satisfy the audience without being overdone.

Also I don't think you read many eu novels. Some of them were about the continuing adventures of the main cast but many of them like the X-wing novels and Crimson empire didnt have any major Star Wars characters at all.
 
That is how I feel though. The Force Awakens had terrible world building.

Can't imagine being George Lucas and watching it and thinking, "What the hell have they done to you", and it turns out to be one of the most successful films ever. I'm with you George, let's see if Johnson can't try and dig us out of this hole
 
Sheer number of times. Hell they even brought back Landos co-pilot from the second death star run just for a few seconds of 'heeeeeeeey remember this star wars guy?'

Rogue one was far from perfect in this regard, but atleast it could go twenty minutes without a wink and a nudge.

I'm just trying to work out how it's a problem. TFA is a continuation of ROTJ. Do callbacks/references seriously bother some people this much? Like okay it shows Lando's pilot. And? It shows his pilot. How this is a negative is beyond me. As you said it's for a few seconds and all it tells me is that he's still a part of the former Rebellion now the Resistance.

Some things you guys complain about being "fanservice" I call basic continuity. Admiral Ackbar was also in TFA. It has returning characters; it's an extension of the same story.
 
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