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Family of Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch seeks arrest

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M

MightyHealthy

Banned
KodMoS said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ7C6tnIShQ
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Do you have a better quality version of this video?

The seven 911 tapes are easier to hear than this (see what I did there).

I gotta say, it cracks me up you're stuck on one eyewitness's version of the events, ignoring the calls/facts/common sense.

And even if Trayvon did get on top of Zimmerman, isn't that part of his self-defense, having been confronted aggressively by an improper and overzealous neighborhood watchman?
 
E

elrechazado

Banned
Oblivion said:
Okay, let me preface this post by saying that what I think happened was absolutely terrible, and that I hope the Trayvon's family gets justice.

Now let's conduct a little thought experiment, shall we? Imagine if the kid in this situation was white and the guy who shot him was black. Let's also imagine that the shooting was the other way around, the white kid is on the black guy's property trying to rob him and ends up shooting him (the black guy).

Tell me then how the reactions, from the media, the politicians, and the posters here on gaf would be. Would the white kid be given the same amount of compassion? Would anyone be questioning the idea of race being a factor involved in the killing?


Again, let me reiterate, I'm not a racist, but you'd have to be extremely disingenous to not see the hypocrisy and double standards at work here.
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Your analogy makes no sense and is terrible because it isn't close to an opposite approximation of even the most tortured interpretation of what we know about what happened here.
 
M

MightyHealthy

Banned
KodMoS said:
If that's your argument then you're obviously in the state of denial. You're better off not saying anything at all. lol
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Step out of the trolling persona for a sec and help me out here...

You've been posting the same video with shitty audio, isn't there a better link by now?
 
K

KodMoS

Banned
MightyHealthy said:
I gotta say, it cracks me up you're stuck on one eyewitness's version of the events, ignoring the calls/facts/common sense.

And even if Trayvon did get on top of Zimmerman, isn't that part of his self-defense, having been confronted aggressively by an improper and overzealous neighborhood watchman?
Click to expand...

I'm not ignoring anything, all I said was that an eye-witness stated that he saw Zimmerman call for help. Is that too difficult to comprehend? Like I said from the beginning, don't get upset with because I'm reporting was an eye-witness saw. His testimony may be used in court, so you cannot easily just dismiss it. It's possible that he may be wrong, but then again, I'm just reporting what an eye-witness saw.
 
D

Dash27

Member
Big-E said:
I don't understand what you are getting at. Race is a factor in this case because of the 911 tapes and the history of 911 calls Zimmerman made in the past. We also have Zimmerman feeling a super skinny black kid walking in the rain is reason enough to phone the police. His history indicates that this is race related and to dismiss it by saying "well a white person killing a black person doesn't have to be a race issue" is stupid because it is clear in this case race was the dominant factor.
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Dominant factor. This is what I found on his history with calling the cops on young black males:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2...ly_war_against_black_youths_doing_things.html

So 4 times. He called the cops 46 times in the past year, 4 doesnt sound too significant. Perhaps it will come out that he called in more white or latino "suspects" than black, or maybe not. Sounds more like this guy would call the cops on anyone for anything. Maybe you had a higher chance if you were a black teen but that may also be because Zimmerman seems like a paranoid idiot and reads police blotters. In my town many of the suspects in the blotter happen to be young black males too, this is simply reality. Most people are smart enough to realize not every teen, of any color, is a suspect and you cant just stare people down, who didnt do anything wrong, stalk them in your car and ultimately kill them.

Race could have been a factor, how big is not clear but the real issue is his paranoid delusions and psychotic behavior.
 
B

Bay Maximus

Banned
Oblivion said:
Okay, let me preface this post by saying that what I think happened was absolutely terrible, and that I hope the Trayvon's family gets justice.

Now let's conduct a little thought experiment, shall we? Imagine if the kid in this situation was white and the guy who shot him was black. Let's also imagine that the shooting was the other way around, the white kid is on the black guy's property trying to rob him and ends up shooting him (the black guy).

Tell me then how the reactions, from the media, the politicians, and the posters here on gaf would be. Would the white kid be given the same amount of compassion? Would anyone be questioning the idea of race being a factor involved in the killing?


Again, let me reiterate, I'm not a racist, but you'd have to be extremely disingenous to not see the hypocrisy and double standards at work here.
Click to expand...

Oh I do, make no mistake.

Also, this hypothetical is not a reversal of the situation at all and for many reasons. Chiefly that Martin was just walking home, not robbing anyone. He was not a criminal. Does that make sense to you?
 
K

KodMoS

Banned
MightyHealthy said:
Step out of the trolling persona for a sec and help me out here...

You've been posting the same video with shitty audio, isn't there a better link by now?
Click to expand...

I suggest that you turn up your volume or look for the video yourself. Anyone with speakers can understand what the Witness is saying. I'm not here to play your silly games.
 
M

MightyHealthy

Banned
KodMoS said:
I suggest that you turn up your volume or look for the video yourself. Anyone with speakers can understand what the Witness is saying. I'm not here to play your silly games.
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You've posted the same youtube video about 10 times, I figured you were an expert on it.

It's just that the sound is so low and atrocious (because it's a cam of a TV report), just thought you knew where the actual link and video for the news story was.

And I'm sorry if you think my requests are silly games. I thought you'd be the man to ask, considering your omniscience.
 
G

Gattsu25

Banned
Oblivion said:
Okay, let me preface this post by saying that what I think happened was absolutely terrible, and that I hope the Trayvon's family gets justice.

Now let's conduct a little thought experiment, shall we? Imagine if the kid in this situation was white and the guy who shot him was black. Let's also imagine that the shooting was the other way around, the white kid is on the black guy's property trying to rob him and ends up shooting him (the black guy).

Tell me then how the reactions, from the media, the politicians, and the posters here on gaf would be. Would the white kid be given the same amount of compassion? Would anyone be questioning the idea of race being a factor involved in the killing?


Again, let me reiterate, I'm not a racist, but you'd have to be extremely disingenous to not see the hypocrisy and double standards at work here.
Click to expand...
This completely changes everything about the murder this thread is about.
 
K

KodMoS

Banned
MightyHealthy said:
You've posted the same youtube video about 10 times, I figured you were an expert on it.

It's just that the sound is so low and atrocious (because it's a cam of a TV report), just thought you knew where the actual link and video for the news story was.

And I'm sorry if you think my requests are silly games. I thought you'd be the man to ask, considering your omniscience.
Click to expand...

You had no problem stating your opinion yesterday after I showed you the video.

I know what you're exactly, and your childish tactics are not going to work.
 
K

kittens

Unconfirmed Member
Just saw this, thought I'd repost here. Allies in Movements. It's a critique of the ways some white people have wedged their way into the activism of people of color since Trayvon's murder.

Also, I gotta say, most racists don't self-identify as racist. Saying "I'm not racist" doesn't mean you're not racist, dudes. This isn't in response to the Allies in Movements video, but to some of the comments I've seen in this thread.
 
E

elrechazado

Banned
kittens said:
Just saw this, thought I'd repost here. Allies in Movements. It's a critique of the ways some white people have wedged their way into the activism of people of color since Trayvon's murder.

Also, I gotta say, most racists don't self-identify as racist. Saying "I'm not racist" doesn't mean you're not racist, dudes. This isn't in response to the Allies in Movements video, but to some of the comments I've seen in this thread.
Click to expand...

This video is so fucking asinine. I'm sure he'd be pissed at all those damned white people supporting the civil rights movement too. Get out of our marches and boycotts!
 
Dude Abides

Dude Abides

Banned
It's really not simply a question of whether Martin was on top or not. The statute eliminates the traiditional duty to retreat, but it still requires the killer to have been facing the threat of grievous bodily harm. Given the size difference and Martin not having a weapon, it's hard to see Zimmerman's defense really making a plausible case for that. That the police just assume a jury would believe that is ridiculous. It may make some sense if they believe Zimmerman was jumped, but that is so unsupported by the other evidence that it's ridiculous to think they don't have PC.
 
K

kittens

Unconfirmed Member
elrechazao said:
This video is so fucking asinine. I'm sure he'd be pissed at all those damned white people supporting the civil rights movement too. Get out of our marches and boycotts!
Click to expand...
You completely missed the point. It's about white privilege, access to power, and white people overshadowing and invizibilizing people of color through their involvement in activism. I've seen this shit happen over and over and over, and this video is a pretty good critique.
 
D

Devolution

Member
Dude Abides said:
It's really not simply a question of whether Martin was on top or not. The statute eliminates the traiditional duty to retreat, but it still requires the killer to have been facing the threat of grievous bodily harm. Given the size difference and Martin not having a weapon, it's hard to see Zimmerman's defense really making a plausible case for that. That the police just assume a jury would believe that is ridiculous. It may make some sense if they believe Zimmerman was jumped, but that is so unsupported by the other evidence that it's ridiculous to think they don't have PC.
Click to expand...

Also I have a question what makes the police think they can decide this anyway?
 
F

FStop7

Banned
kittens said:
You completely missed the point. It's about white privilege, access to power, and white people overshadowing and invizibilizing people of color through their involvement in activism. I've seen this shit happen over and over and over, and this video is a pretty good critique.
Click to expand...

Are you the guy in the video?
 
E

elrechazado

Banned
kittens said:
You completely missed the point. It's about white privilege, access to power, and white people overshadowing and invizibilizing people of color through their involvement in activism. I've seen this shit happen over and over and over, and this video is a pretty good critique.
Click to expand...

No, I watched the video, sorry, and it's amusing that you just restated my criticism in support of the video.
 
M

MIMIC

Banned
Haha, my mom and dad were on the news at a Trayvon rally. My mom had a sign that said "Trayvon is my son".

I was just thinking about that the other day. I go to the store and get cans of Arizona Iced Tea ALL THE TIME.
 
S

soundahfekz

Member
Oblivion said:
Okay, let me preface this post by saying that what I think happened was absolutely terrible, and that I hope the Trayvon's family gets justice.

Now let's conduct a little thought experiment, shall we? Imagine if the kid in this situation was white and the guy who shot him was black. Let's also imagine that the shooting was the other way around, the white kid is on the black guy's property trying to rob him and ends up shooting him (the black guy).

Tell me then how the reactions, from the media, the politicians, and the posters here on gaf would be. Would the white kid be given the same amount of compassion? Would anyone be questioning the idea of race being a factor involved in the killing?


Again, let me reiterate, I'm not a racist, but you'd have to be extremely disingenous to not see the hypocrisy and double standards at work here.
Click to expand...


LOL

The alternate universe hypothetical double standard that can't exist because your scenario doesn't? If I spin on my fucking head while smoking crack in a Deion Sanders "must be the money" suit, ehh yeah I can kinda see it then.

What makes it even worse is that you present a hypothetical situation in which you assert you know what the desired outcome would be, showing that your mind was already made up when you entered this thread, and that you're a waste of time to engage beyond an initial shaming.
 
D

Devolution

Member
soundahfekz said:
LOL

The alternate universe hypothetical double standard that can't exist because your scenario doesn't? If I spin on my fucking head while smoking crack in a Deion Sanders "must be the money" suit, ehh yeah I can kinda see it then.

What makes it even worse is that you present a hypothetical situation in which you assert you know what the desired outcome would be, showing that your mind was already made up when you entered this thread, and that you're a waste of time to engage beyond an initial shaming.
Click to expand...

Stealing this.
 
K

kittens

Unconfirmed Member
elrechazao said:
No, I watched the video, sorry, and it's amusing that you just restated my criticism in support of the video.
Click to expand...
Your criticism is entirely missing the point, and is a vastly different characterization of the video's message than the interpretation I presented. I didn't restate shit.

I recommend you read this: So You Want To Be An Ally! I'd like to hear your thoughts.

FStop7 said:
Are you the guy in the video?
Click to expand...
Nope.
 
M

mavs

Member
Devolution said:
Also I have a question what makes the police think they can decide this anyway?
Click to expand...

Florida law says the police have to determine there is probable cause that unlawful force is used before they can arrest him.

Then a judge will review that determination and make a second judgement on whether the force was justified.

Only then can there be a trial by jury.
 
D

Devolution

Member
mavs said:
Florida law says the police have to determine there is probable cause that unlawful force is used before they can arrest him.

Then a judge will review that determination and make a second judgement on whether the force was justified.

Only then can there be a trial by jury.
Click to expand...

Jesus Florida.
 
D

DrMungo

Member
I haven't even read this whole thread, and already I've seen the usual straw-man arguments.

Examples which include the whole "what if the victim was white?!" hypothetical scenario which really doesn't answer any questions.

Some dude brought up OJ. Fucking OJ? This is meant to be serious rational discussion?

I'm not even going to get into the phone recordings because I haven't heard them and I don't know how the parties sound like anyway.

Furthermore, if Zimmerman's defense is that he acted in self-defense, then why would he purposely follow and confront someone? He was obviously looking to start something, making him the instigator of all this. Then have the gall of claiming self defense?

Then the guy who just shot an unarmed minor can just go home without further questioning? No evaluation of the murder scene? What kind of bush-league policework is this? If they get paid from taxes those cops should be jailed for theivery. (That sentence was sarcasm.)

I don't understand how someone is not aghast at the notion that an unarmed kid, with nothing but candy and iced tea in hand, was gunned down by a bigger older guy for no reason other than pure suspicion. This is taking race out of the equation. That is tragic, and that there are people who can imply any blame on the kid because he was wearing a hoodie and walking on the street is just shameful.
 
N

Narpas Sword0

Member
Oblivion said:
Okay, let me preface this post by saying that what I think happened was absolutely terrible, and that I hope the Trayvon's family gets justice.

Now let's conduct a little thought experiment, shall we? Imagine if the kid in this situation was white and the guy who shot him was black. Let's also imagine that the shooting was the other way around, the white kid is on the black guy's property trying to rob him and ends up shooting him (the black guy).

Tell me then how the reactions, from the media, the politicians, and the posters here on gaf would be. Would the white kid be given the same amount of compassion? Would anyone be questioning the idea of race being a factor involved in the killing?


Again, let me reiterate, I'm not a racist, but you'd have to be extremely disingenous to not see the hypocrisy and double standards at work here.
Click to expand...

In early 2009 two black kids beat up a white kid on a school bus and fox news ran the headline OBAMAS AMERICA?!
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
It's a shame seeing people on both sides attempting to politicize this, although I think it's fair to say some on the right have taken things beyond politics into pure race whistle nonsense. Gingrich's comments especially strike me as beyond the pale. Drudge is still heavily beating the "racial extremism" factor, attempting to somehow tie Obama to some racism or prejudice against whites.

And on the other side, the ambulance chasers have arrived in full force: Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton make just about any incident they enter a circus.

It goes back to the point that unfortunately there is a segment of the country completely invested in denying any adult or non-partisan discussion of race. For years many on the right have essentially argued that by acknowledging racism exists - be it institutional or otherwise - liberals and blacks expose themselves as being the true racists. It's one of the many false equivalencies at work here. Reading comments on various sites I've seen multiple insinuating Obama and the media are somehow racist for not covering black-on-white crime, specifically the recent case of black teenagers setting a white teen on fire. As if both cases are direct 1:1 comparisons outside of being race motivated crimes.
 
D

Dead Man

Member
Oblivion said:
Okay, let me preface this post by saying that what I think happened was absolutely terrible, and that I hope the Trayvon's family gets justice.

Now let's conduct a little thought experiment, shall we? Imagine if the kid in this situation was white and the guy who shot him was black. Let's also imagine that the shooting was the other way around, the white kid is on the black guy's property trying to rob him and ends up shooting him (the black guy).

Tell me then how the reactions, from the media, the politicians, and the posters here on gaf would be. Would the white kid be given the same amount of compassion? Would anyone be questioning the idea of race being a factor involved in the killing?


Again, let me reiterate, I'm not a racist, but you'd have to be extremely disingenous to not see the hypocrisy and double standards at work here.
Click to expand...

So if the situation was totally different, the reaction would be different? A white kid shooting a black person on the black persons property is analogous in what way?
 
P

Puddles

Banned
Fuck politicizing this shit.

Anyway, Zimmerman's defense is asinine. You can't go pick a fight, start to lose, then shoot the other guy and claim self-defense.
 
Blackace

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Oblivion said:
Okay, let me preface this post by saying that what I think happened was absolutely terrible, and that I hope the Trayvon's family gets justice.

Now let's conduct a little thought experiment, shall we? Imagine if the kid in this situation was white and the guy who shot him was black. Let's also imagine that the shooting was the other way around, the white kid is on the black guy's property trying to rob him and ends up shooting him (the black guy).

Tell me then how the reactions, from the media, the politicians, and the posters here on gaf would be. Would the white kid be given the same amount of compassion? Would anyone be questioning the idea of race being a factor involved in the killing?


Again, let me reiterate, I'm not a racist, but you'd have to be extremely disingenous to not see the hypocrisy and double standards at work here.
Click to expand...
First of all if it were a black man who shot a kid he would be detained immediately, and the kid WAS not on the guys property trying to rob him.. If he were this wouldn't even have been a story. If the roles were equally reversed in your magically world the media would be all over this... And the black Zimmerman would have been arrested so fast it wouldn't be funny. For blacks this strikes too close to the times where a white man (not that Zimmerman is white per se) could kill a black man and pretty much get away with it with little to no hassle. So of course the black population and people who understand the entirety of the struggles are going to be very vocal about this turn of events... After that the media sees it as a story worth running... Because the story didn't get much steam until citizens became more vocal..

As for the question of race and would the white kid be given as much compassion... Maybe you don't remember the case where the woman blindly claimed that her kids were kidnapped by some random black guys.. The nation was VERY supportive of the woman until it came out that she killed her own children..

Race would be questioned but yes there is a double standard because A: white people werent slaves, lesser citizens until 40 years ago and B racial profiling tends to benefit white teenagers more so than harm them..

Because the playing field isn't equal a reverse situation cannot be equal as well... But I promise if the white teenager was minding his own business and got blasted for it the media would have been ALL over the story from day one
 
R

remnant

Banned
kittens said:
You completely missed the point. It's about white privilege, access to power, and white people overshadowing and invizibilizing people of color through their involvement in activism. I've seen this shit happen over and over and over, and this video is a pretty good critique.
Click to expand...

No It's really not. I don't even see this kids point. So a white person co-opts the movement by virtue of simply being white. You know there was a time when black and white social issues were seen as different and not to be intermingled. Shit didn't work well.

The issue became so big because it transcended race so quickly. There is no need to drag it down into the mud of racial infighting and other nonsense.
 
Blackace

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
TacticalFox88 said:
Haven't read the whole thread, but I assume some people are defending this piece of shit?
Click to expand...

GAF has always had a PoS defense force and a reverse racism squad... Par for the course. But I love them all the same!
 
M

marathonfool

Member
Oblivion said:
Okay, let me preface this post by saying that what I think happened was absolutely terrible, and that I hope the Trayvon's family gets justice.

Now let's conduct a little thought experiment, shall we? Imagine if the kid in this situation was white and the guy who shot him was black. Let's also imagine that the shooting was the other way around, the white kid is on the black guy's property trying to rob him and ends up shooting him (the black guy).

Tell me then how the reactions, from the media, the politicians, and the posters here on gaf would be. Would the white kid be given the same amount of compassion? Would anyone be questioning the idea of race being a factor involved in the killing?
Click to expand...
Is this the same hypothetical world where black people have majority power, colonized, enslaved, jim crow'd, denied rights, overlooked legacy context, and ignorantly tried to draw the most inane and shallow comparison of race relations?

Oblivion said:
Again, let me reiterate, I'm not a racist, but you'd have to be extremely disingenous to not see the hypocrisy and double standards at work here.
Click to expand...
At least self-proclaimed racists can be identified. Comments like this is profoundly damaging to race relations and improving dialogue. Instead, it flagrantly flaunts one's insufficient knowledge and comprehension.
 
M

masud

Banned
I don't even understand the points that some of the people in this thread are trying to make. Its almost like they're just compelled to be on the other side of the 'aguement'...
 
R

remnant

Banned
PhoenixDark said:
It goes back to the point that unfortunately there is a segment of the country completely invested in denying any adult or non-partisan discussion of race. For years many on the right have essentially argued that by acknowledging racism exists - be it institutional or otherwise - liberals and blacks expose themselves as being the true racists. It's one of the many false equivalencies at work here. Reading comments on various sites I've seen multiple insinuating Obama and the media are somehow racist for not covering black-on-white crime, specifically the recent case of black teenagers setting a white teen on fire. As if both cases are direct 1:1 comparisons outside of being race motivated crimes.
Click to expand...

How is a conversation about race centered around a dead black boy killed by a hispanic man going to be non-partisan? The reason why this story is such a big deal is because this police dept and suspect are abusing a self-defense law to escape punishment. That should be the focus.
 
M

mik83kuu

Banned
Sorry to be an asshole, but this thread is getting quite long and I would like to know where we at right now with this?

So is the family in any chance of getting justice?
 
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