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What if Perfect Dark and Conker's Bad Fur Day were GameCube launch titles instead?

daTRUballin

Member
This is an interesting hypothetical scenario I've had in my mind for awhile now, and I've seen this idea mentioned here on GAF by others as well. I think releasing Perfect Dark and Conker's Bad Fur Day on the GameCube as launch titles instead of releasing them as N64 games late in the console's life would've been a better idea, and there are three major reasons why I think this.

1. These games would've gotten more exposure and would've probably sold better, and also would've benefited from GameCube's better hardware. Perfect Dark still sold around 2-3 million on the N64 which still made the game a success, but that's nothing compared to Goldeneye's 8 million sales. CBFD came out even later and was a total bomb. I think if these two games were released as GC launch titles, they would've gotten more attention than they actually got and would've received more appreciation as a result. I'm also willing to bet they would've sold tons more than they actually did on the N64. Also, with the GC's superior hardware, the games themselves could've been significantly improved. The framerate would have been a whole lot better, and the graphics would've been improved, and maybe even the controls.

2. The games would've helped provide the GC with adult-oriented games at launch and also would've given Nintendo a competitor to Halo in PD. At the time, the GC had the perception of being the "kiddy purple lunchbox" in comparison to the PS2 and Xbox. Having PD and CBFD as launch titles could've helped soften some of the criticism. PD could also have been used as the "Halo killer" of the GC. I'm not sure if it would've stood up to Halo's success, but having the long-awaited spiritual sequel to Goldeneye at launch would've have hurt. Especially if Nintendo would've hyped the game up with its marketing muscle.

3. Having two important Rare games at launch could've potentially incentivized Nintendo to hold on to Rare instead of letting Microsoft buy them. There's been so much debating over the years about why Nintendo sold Rare that the topic is pretty much a dead beaten horse at this point. Whatever the reason was, I believe if Rare had released two of these games at launch and if they would've helped the GC in a significant way, Nintendo might've held on to them. In reality, the only game Rare managed to release on the GC was Star Fox Adventures. Imagine if they managed to have two games out at the GC's launch instead of only having SFA a year later. I have a feeling Nintendo would've really appreciated that and would've kept them under their wing. We all know what happened to the studio under Microsoft's management.

So there you have it. Those are three major reasons why I think these games should've been GC launch titles instead. Sorry for the long ass post. I tried my best to make it as short as possible. :p

What do you guys think? Do you agree or disagree with these reasons? What are your thoughts on this hypothetical scenario?
 

Oddduck

Member
I agree with you. Perfect Dark released too late in N64's life for people to care.

The biggest problem with GameCube is it never had it's own Goldeneye, and it didn't have a FPS to go up against Halo. Perfect Dark would have been GameCube's answer to Halo.
 

Sephzilla

Member
I don't think it would have mattered that much because the PS2 was already in full on "eat everyone's lunch" mode. I don't think there was much the GameCube could have done to close the gap with the PS2, even the Xbox with Halo and Halo 2 were still miles behind. And I don't think the sales of Perfect Dark or Conker would have been boosted either.
 
I agree with you.

The biggest problem with GameCube is it never had it's own Goldeneye, and it didn't have a game to go up against Halo. Perfect Dark would have been GameCube's answer to Halo.

It kinda did, actually.

timesplitters-2-56271.430531.jpg


timesplitters3_gcnbox.jpg


I know they were multi-platform (the last two games anyway), but I still maintain that TimeSplitters was basically the proper successor to Perfect Dark, in the same way PD was the successor to Goldeneye. They were developed by a lot of the same people who worked on those games and share many design and gameplay elements. It's a shame they kinda got overlooked.
 

Sheroking

Member
I don't think it would have mattered that much because the PS2 was already in full on "eat everyone's lunch" mode

There's a giant world of success between "equal to PS2" and "GameCube".

Perfect Dark would have been huge. Nintendo hemoraged a lot of their Goldeneye audience to Microsoft. Maybe Halo would have won out anyway, but GameCube's launch would have been less one dimensional and they may have hung onto some core fans.
 

Oddduck

Member
It kinda did, actually.

I owned Timesplitters 2 on GameCube and I loved it.

But GameCube desperately needed an exclusive shooter. Nintendo lost their Goldeneye/Perfect Dark/Turok audience to Halo.

Nintendo tried to achieve that with Geist, but unfortunately it bombed both critically and commercially.
 

Sephzilla

Member
There's a giant world of success between "equal to PS2" and "GameCube".

Perfect Dark would have been huge. Nintendo hemoraged a lot of their Goldeneye audience to Microsoft. Maybe Halo would have won out anyway, but GameCube's launch would have been less one dimensional and they may have hung onto some core fans.

The GameCube still had other issues that weren't related to its library, some fickle while some more important. GameCube lacked DVD playback and backwards compatibility (which couldn't really be avoided) and that hurt it big time. Plus I knew some people who were more fickle and didn't like how the console looked visually plus thought the mini discs were stupid. I kind of think the GameCube overall was kind of destined to sell the way it did, Sony straight up put themselves in a way better position to thrive with the PS2 and take over the market. I don't know if having a couple more games would have helped the GameCube at all
 

dlauv

Member
I doubt we'd see a big difference. At the end of the day it's still split-screen multi and an animal mascot.

BBA cost extra, so LAN party potential wasn't as accessible as Halo. PS2 had early PSN with Everquest, Twisted Metal and Socom.

Nintendo was just behind the curve out of the gate.
 

NateDrake

Member
I don't think it would have mattered that much because the PS2 was already in full on "eat everyone's lunch" mode. I don't think there was much the GameCube could have done to close the gap with the PS2, even the Xbox with Halo and Halo 2 were still miles behind. And I don't think the sales of Perfect Dark or Conker would have been boosted either.

Have to agree.

Conker would have bombed regardless, and Perfect Dark may have found an audience but not enough to change the tides for the GCN.

Perfect Dark sold 3.2m copies on the N64 and was a success. The game was brilliant and may have deserved greater sales but releasing it on the N64 was the smart move.
 
Mini discs and the fact that Sony made the very smart move to bundle a DVD player which was cheaper than any retail DVD player just destroyed all the competition I felt.

I remember at the time owning the GameCube/Dreamcast just eyeing up that latest DVD technology within the PlayStation 2.

Oh how I miss the dreamcast days!!
 

Dre3001

Member
While I think those games would have been more popular had they launched on Gamecube I really dont think they would have saved the system in the long run.

The biggest issue was the "kiddy" image the console portrayed for some reason. Even when the system had Resident Evil series come to it, that barely changed the overall perception of the system.

It also didnt help that Fall 2001 Ps2 lineup was loaded with some of the greatest games of all time. Nintendo just was caught at a bad time.
 

zeexlash

Member
Would have given the Game Cube a very strong launch and weakened the N64's final years a fair bit.

But either way when Microsoft came along with $375m, Rare was getting sold.
 
Gamecube having the MP double-whammy of PD and SSBM at launch would have been absolutely killer.

A stable framerate (maybe even 60fps if Rare didn't boost it graphically too much?) would have been great too, playing the fantastic 360 remaster was like a whole new experience.
 
Would have given the Game Cube a very strong launch and weakened the N64's final years a fair bit.

But either way when Microsoft came along with $375m, Rare was getting sold.

Nintendo were given the option to buy out the stamper brothers share, they chose not to (apparently they offered to increase to be majority owners)
 
Having two important Rare games at launch could've potentially incentivized Nintendo to hold on to Rare instead of letting Microsoft buy them.[/b] There's been so much debating over the years about why Nintendo sold Rare that the topic is pretty much a dead beaten horse at this point. Whatever the reason was, I believe if Rare had released two of these games at launch and if they would've helped the GC in a significant way, Nintendo might've held on to them. In reality, the only game Rare managed to release on the GC was Star Fox Adventures. Imagine if they managed to have two games out at the GC's launch instead of only having SFA a year later. I have a feeling Nintendo would've really appreciated that and would've kept them under their wing. We all know what happened to the studio under Microsoft's management.

Nintendo never owned Rare.
 
The 6th generation marked the point where multiplatform development became the norm, not the exception. At least for non-Japanese developers. You'd already seen games getting ported to the PS1 as a cash grab in the 5th generation, but by the 6th generation this became ubiquitous.

For example, people often overlook that the excellent, excellent Nightfire by Eurocom was on Gamecube. Ran at 60fps, too, I believe.

mOGZgOZ.jpg


Why? Because it wasn't "exclusive". But that betrays a very backward thinking. Why on earth would you make a new James Bond game exclusive to one platform? Do you hate money? Even Eurocom's GoldenEye came to PS3/360 a year later, and would have released on PC, too, if they hadn't gone bankrupt.

Exclusivity benefits nobody except the platform holder, and publishers like EA and Activision weren't stupid.

All that said, yes, Perfect Dark would have helped the Gamecube. Yes, Conker would have sold better as a GC launch title. Just as Crysis 3 would have sold much better as a PS4/XBO launch title.
 

requiem02

Banned
The N64 really needed strong titles in 2000-2001 due to the intense completion at the time (seriously, it was up against PSX, PS2, and DC with Xbox looming!), so I think Rare and Nintendo made the right choice.
 

daTRUballin

Member
Nintendo never owned Rare.

Yes, I'm aware of that, but Nintendo still owned about 49% of the studio. They were an exclusive second party partner, so saying they "sold" them isn't really controversial. They were almost like a first party studio without actually being a first party studio.
 
Yes, I'm aware of that, but Nintendo still owned about 49% of the studio. They were an exclusive second party partner, so saying they sold them isn't really controversial.

Yeh but saying things like "might have held on to them if.." doesn't really work when they didn't really have any say in the matter.
 

VDenter

Banned
Eternal Darkness and Adventures both started out as N64 titles and it did not help them whatsoever once they got moved to the GameCube. Sure the games quality might of been improved but from a sales perspective not really. Besides Nintendo fans everybody was mostly interested in the PS2. Nintendo could of had bought Rare themselves but Nintendo always had this mentality that it is no use buying a studio if the talent behind it can just get up and leave. Retros situation was a bit different.
 

daTRUballin

Member
Yeh but saying things like "might have held on to them if.." doesn't really work when they didn't really have any say in the matter.

As far as I know, the Stampers originally wanted Nintendo to buy the other 51% of Rare so that they would be wholly owned, but Nintendo refused. So in that sense, Nintendo not wanting to buy the rest of Rare meant that Nintendo "let them go" since it gave Microsoft a window of opportunity to swoop in and buy them instead.
 
As far as I know, the Stampers originally wanted Nintendo to buy the other 51% of Rare so that they would be wholly owned, but Nintendo refused. So in that sense, Nintendo not wanting to buy the rest of Rare meant that Nintendo "let them go" since it gave Microsoft a window of opportunity to swoop in and buy them instead.

Being perfectly happy to remain as a 49% stakeholder instead of buying all shares outright doesn't qualify as "letting them go". It just shows that they didn't have a say in what happened to Rare. The Stampers did.
 

daTRUballin

Member
Being perfectly happy to remain as a 49% stakeholder instead of buying all shares outright doesn't qualify as "letting them go". It just shows that they didn't have a say in what happened to Rare. The Stampers did.

That's true, I guess. Good point.

I guess my whole point was that it's possible that if these two games were present at the GC's launch, Nintendo could've been less reluctant about buying the other half of Rare which wouldn't have made the Stampers look for other buyers.
 

LCGeek

formerly sane
I agree with you. Perfect Dark released too late in N64's life for people to care.

The biggest problem with GameCube is it never had it's own Goldeneye, and it didn't have a FPS to go up against Halo. Perfect Dark would have been GameCube's answer to Halo.

It had Timesplitters, it just didn't catch on and some of the people on those teams were involved with goldeneye or perfect dark.

Catching goldeneye's lightning at time when Halo and Counter strike were unlikely due to fact most fps types were in one of these two games.
 

SmokedMeat

Gamer™
GameCube already had the best launch lineup that gen, so this would've cemented it further. But I think there would've been too much at launch, and these games would cannibalize each other.

If PD and Conker were launch games, then it would probably have been wise to delay Luigi's Mansion and Star Wars.
 

DonMigs85

Member
They didn't have a lot of time and the games would've looked primitive on the Cube.
Star Fox Adventures had some low geometry environments but they had enough time to spruce up the textures and add some nice effects.
 
They didn't have a lot of time and the games would've looked primitive on the Cube.
Star Fox Adventures had some low geometry environments but they had enough time to spruce up the textures and add some nice effects.

PD came out in summer of 2000, right? Even if they only decided to move it to the Gamecube six months before then, that still would have been almost two years of development time.
 

daTRUballin

Member
PD came out in summer of 2000, right? Even if they only decided to move it to the Gamecube six months before then, that still would have been almost two years of development time.

PD came out in May 2000, so that would've been exactly 2 years of development time to get it on the GC and like 4 years of development time overall. It probably would've been an even better game! Imagine that.
 

th4tguy

Member
PD would have competed directly with Halo and would have really shown it's aged concepts, especially with controls. You have to remember that the c stick on the GameCube was not a full thumb padded stick. It was not good for duel stick control setups which, arguably, halo perfected.
 

Brofield

Member
Eternal Darkness and Adventures both started out as N64 titles and it did not help them whatsoever once they got moved to the GameCube. Sure the games quality might of been improved but from a sales perspective not really. Besides Nintendo fans everybody was mostly interested in the PS2. Nintendo could of had bought Rare themselves but Nintendo always had this mentality that it is no use buying a studio if the talent behind it can just get up and leave. Retros situation was a bit different.

Out of curiosity, could you elaborate on the bolded? I'm interested on the story behind it if it would otherwise go against a Nintendo traditional philosophy.
 
PD would have competed directly with Halo and would have really shown it's aged concepts, especially with controls. You have to remember that the c stick on the GameCube was not a full thumb padded stick. It was not good for duel stick control setups which, arguably, halo perfected.
This is ignoring the existence of...

mOGZgOZ.jpg


The GC stick is not ideal, structurally, but it works perfectly fine for dual analogue shooters that coincidentally feature optional decoupled aiming modes. The Gamecube had heaps of FPS and TPS games alike.
 
Being perfectly happy to remain as a 49% stakeholder instead of buying all shares outright doesn't qualify as "letting them go". It just shows that they didn't have a say in what happened to Rare. The Stampers did.

Nintendo offered to buy more, just not the whole thing at that time, i suspect the stamper brothers wanted to cash out as they likely could see things were at least not going to be as rosey as they had been
 

BigTnaples

Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
I would've bought a GameCube at launch.



Never played Conker but Perfect Dark is the GOAT.
 

Matt

Member
PD Zero was at one point a title Nintendo wanted for launch or near launch for the GameCube.

Rare being unable to deliver it (and all those other games planed outside of SFA) contributed to Nintendo's attitude of "why would we do that?" when the Stampers offered them the buyout.

At least, that's what I've been told.
 
Halo made Perfect Dark look antiquated, putting the two up side by side wouldn't have done the GameCube any favours.
They are very different if you look beyond their superficial similarities. The tendency to lump FPS subgenres together really does discourse no favors. It's like saying Call of Duty: Modern Warfare made Swat 4 look antiquated. That might be true in a certain sense, but they were trying to do very different things. Comparing Perfect Dark to Halo is like comparing Hitman to Uncharted. The qualities that make Hitman/Perfect Dark special are absent from Uncharted. But it's not as simple as Perfect Dark/Hitman being "better" than Halo/Uncharted because "different" is not "worse".
 
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