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What Mario can learn from Mania

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Like many, I've been swept up in a tidal wave of love for Sonic Mania in recent days.

I've already raced through the campaign as Sonic, and I'm approaching the end of my Knuckles run.

I've been blown away by the art, music, level design and sheer variety of gimmicks on show throughout Mania - it's truly something special.

However, it's also got me thinking - what can Sonic's old rival learn from Mania?

You might be screaming 'NOTHING!' at your screen, but I think there's plenty Nintendo can take and use to reinvigorate Mario's flagging 2D efforts.

Light-ish spoilers for Sonic Mania ahead (I'd recommend finishing it before reading my garbled thoughts below).


Art

Mania is beautiful, a real celebration of gorgeous pixel art. Colours burst off the screen, popping in and out as you high-tail it through each level. It's a real return to the glory days of the sprite work many of us cherished from yesteryear.

But Mario has totally abandoned his retro looks for an incredibly bland art style that just doesn't excite. It looks boring and has, in recent years, become incredibly stale. Inject some life back into the Mushroom Kingdom, look at Super Mario World - when did it become so safe?


Surprise us

Not only has the art become dull, but Mario's games have become all too predictable. Yes, in terms of the course-based, methodical 2D platformer, the podgy Italian remains at the top of his game.

But there's just no pizazz. From 64, to Sunshine, to Galaxy, to Odyssey - Mario has constantly reinvented himself and left jaws on the floor.

However, his more traditional adventures just feel so safe, recycling the same enemies, the same backdrops, etc.

Get rid of the lava world, the ice world, the sand world and just do something, anything, to liven things up.

Don't get me wrong, Sonic isn't immune from falling back on these tropes, but I'd argue his games do a lot more environmentally.

It probably helps that a fair few levels in Mania transition into each other, which brings me to my next point.


Tell a story and make me feel like I'm on a journey

Mania tells an incredibly simple story, but it's jam-packed full of character. Mini in-game cutscenes littered throughout the game just give you a little bit more context. It never gets in the way of gameplay but it gives you something to hold on to in terms of a narrative.

It helps that acts transition into other, sporting variations of the same theme. It just... flows together so nicely. It feels cohesive, it feels like a journey. Mania actually stumbles a little bit here in the back end, but the effort is still appreciated.

Mario has shied away from adding story trimmings into the mix (mostly) but I think Mania, like Sonic 3 before it, shows it can be done and it can add something.


Delve into the past for inspiration

This is the most important one for me.

Mania obviously benefits from being a return to a much-loved formula many thought they'd never see it again, but Christian Whitehead and co deserve enormous credit for harnessing that nostalgia to maximum effect.

There's numerous winks to the past, big and small. But why can't Manrio get in on the fun. Wouldn't it be great if you got to the end of a Mario level, only to have to beat a boss in a mini set of tennis? What about a Dr Mario inspired boss, or a one-on-one race with Bowser? Maybe these are just wacky bonus stages.

For those who have played Sonic's latest, you'll immediately know why I'm suggesting such things, but I think it could work equally well for Mario.

There's DECADES of Mario to pull from, start pulling - and don't stop at just the platformers either.


In short

I want Nintendo to breathe new life into Mario's 2D outings with more imaginative art, unusual worlds and a cool story. I want to see wicked call backs and some irreverence that's sorely missing.

Maybe I'm drunk on Mania at the moment, but I really do think Mario has lost his edge. His gameplay is timeless don't get me wrong, but it feels like he's coasting a bit to me.


Agree? Disagree? Am I just trying to turn Mario into Sonic? Let me know, as I'm really intrigued to see if I'm alone in how I feel. It's just my opinion, so feel free to attack! lol :)
 

RockmanBN

Member
Art is the most important change for me. The "New" style has never done it for me. I want the art to be more expressive where everything pops .
 

Stencil

Member
Regarding the 2D Mario games, I agree. New Super Mario Bros has always been incredibly boring and lacking imagination. Mario should do with Super Mario World what Sonic did with Mania. That would be sweet, that game was weird and I loved it for that reason.
 
There hasn't been a new 2D Mario since 2012?
Well, there's Maker which is pretty cool.
But, sure. If they're going to make a new 2D Mario they need new art assets.

Also, Odyssey is looking super fresh despite being the 3D series
 

Archtreyz

Member
I feel like Mania is the game it had to be in order for it to be in good graces. Mario games can come out like clockwork and they would still be loved because they are the best at what they do. Could they use some more pizzazz? Absolutely. Do they need to? Nah.
 

13ruce

Banned
Art for 2d Mario should be like Shantae Half Genie Hero or Wario Shake It.
But even more higher quality.
 
Nothing really. Nintendo hasn't given it full effort when it comes to 2D Mario. They were playing it safe and cheap with the "New" series.
 

WonderzL

Banned
This is reductionist. Desert and lava levels can be reinvented. See Kirby Robobot and Yoshi's WW. Also Skyward Sword. I totally see what you mean, but the comparison falls flat at the moment you compare modern Mario to a game that, while incredible, is a reimagining of an established formula. That's literally what NSMB has done - admittedly WAY WORSE. I don't see this as a reasonable comparison at all.
 

FelipeMGM

Member
tbh, I'd be ok if the future of 2D Mario's is just Mario Maker based projects (and thats kinda what Mania premise is, a game made with talented fans input, you can have tons of that within Mario Maker)

Keep those fresh and innovative 3D Mario's coming and we will be fine
 

Doosi

Banned
tbh, I'd be ok if the future of 2D Mario's is just Mario Maker based projects (and thats kinda what Mania premise is, a game made with talented fans imput, you can have tons of that within Mario Maker)

Keep those fresh and innovative 3D Mario's coming and we will be fine

THIS
 

seady

Member
3D Mario & Super Mario 3D Land/World = Amazing and creative.

New Super Mario Bros. = Unimaginative and ugly craps.
 

120v

Member
it's kind of like saying what obama needs to learn from trump

kidding, sorta, but 2D mario has never been in the purgatory sonic has. though if they want to go full on revival like SMB3 sprites or something i surely wouldnt complain
 

13ruce

Banned
They should atleast bundle mario maker and nsmb in one game if it's seperate again they can screw themselves and i will skip both.
 
I think this discussion should really be about Mario Maker since that's actually Nintendo looking back to their 8 and 16 bit roots - the closest comparison to what Sonic Mania was aiming to do from a design perspective.

Nintendo has just snuck out one of the best 2D Mario games in years

If NSMB was the only thing Nintendo had done with Mario I'd be inclined to agree, but that's not the case at all - people often forget the amount of work that went in to Mario Maker's audio-visual presentation, and the 3DS version having 18 worlds of really, really unrestrained level design.

John's video for Digital Foundry didn't do this discussion many favours since he cherry-picked a few games to claim that Sega is doing classic Sonic 'right' (which definitely should be derided - New Yoshi's Island is assembly line fodder), while conveniently forgetting stuff like Mario Kart 8, which remade dozens of retro courses with beautiful visuals and modern gameplay mechanics while also including live music. And well, Mario Maker too, which Koji Kondo even composed for. That doesn't happen often these days.
 

BDGAME

Member
I like Sonic Mania and all, but for me

d1c51a6a66bc6b0d61046b6474313265f0d2133876c75ceb882f16631db2b321.jpg
 
Retro Mario has like four or five different art styles. Sonic has one. A new 2D Mario doesn't need to replicate one of those styles in order to be successful.
 

MouldyK

Member
Blame the people who made the NSMB games have a Metacritic of:

- NSMB: 89
- NSMB Wii: 87
- NSMB 2: 78
- NSMB U: 84

Hell, New Super Luigi U got a 77 and that is probably the best one!

I felt NSMB U was a great game with great level design...but the artwork just ain't great.
 

Vibed

Member
This seems like a bog standard critique of NSMB. I think we all know NSMB has both artistically and thematically run dry. (Despite that, the level design is still top notch.) However, I wouldn't call Super Mario World art impressive. It was pretty ordinary pixel art wise, and its not any more bursting with creativity than current Mario games are. Super Mario World was far from Nintendo taking risks, since it was very much built off the foundation of SMB3.

Personally, it seems Mario Odyessy is living up to the art and creativity aspects. Story too, possibly. 3D Marios always have.

I actually feel Mario has relied on reaching into the past too much. Taking inspiration from Mario 3 and Mario World is kinda boring by this point, the days when Koopalings were a cool new addition have long gone. Most of the spinoff franchises are still going to this day as well. There's no need to mash them up into the main series besides the occasional reference or cameo. This is unlike Sonic, who basically only has the mainline platformers and the occasional, never to be returned to spinoff.

Narrative, I'll concede could be developed further. I wouldn't mind them taking some cues from the older Mario RPGs to give the gameplay something more of a driving force, although its not necessary.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
In terms of presentation perhaps, but the level design still way up there.

The level design in NSMBU shits on anything Sonic has ever done. It's actually far superior to games like Super Mario Brothers 3 and World as well. Luigi U then builds on that even further.

Hell I'll take the pretty good levels of NSMB 2 over any classic Sonic game any day.
 

Camjo-Z

Member
I think it's less that Mario needs to learn from Sonic and more that Nintendo needs to take the effort and creativity they put into Mario's 3D outings and apply it to his 2D outings as well.
 
I mean which retro style would you want Nintendo to go back to, there's been like 4 of them before NSMB and they're all different.

I'd rather just have a new Mario maker, in all honesty.
 

Betty

Banned
Mania is just doing what Sonic did in the 90's, it's nothing new, it's just really damn good.

Mario has long outpaced Sonic in every department.
 
tbh, I'd be ok if the future of 2D Mario's is just Mario Maker based projects (and thats kinda what Mania premise is, a game made with talented fans imput, you can have tons of that within Mario Maker)

Keep those fresh and innovative 3D Mario's coming and we will be fine

Seriously, Maker is the only thing I need out of 2D Mario from now on. They've peaked with that concept, I won't go back to a limited selection of levels and no creation of my own.

Just MM sequels with more tools, themes, and items, with bundled in levels from Nintendo devs.

In fact, Sonic Mania maker when?
 

Shifty

Member
OP, you really need to stop worrying and learn to love paragraphs. That was a difficult read.

I agree with your point though- 2D mario has become stagnant through the NSMB era. It's all so samey and wah-wah-ey.
Which is weird given that they in some cases flat refuse to make the same game twice.
 

BGBW

Maturity, bitches.
What's so different about Mania that it teaches "Mario" something that "he" couldn't haven't learnt from Nintendo's other performers?

Wario Land The Shake Dimension did nice graphics and music (though I should note I find nothing really wrong with the style NSMB adopts apart from reusing a lot of compositions) years ago. Didn't have any effect on the NSMB series. Heck, Donkey Kong Country Returns is even more apt example.

Just feels odd that Mania is being put forward as a new idea for Nintendo to take note of when they've been at it already for years.
 

MrBadger

Member
I would appreciate more Nintendo games using 2D art or sprites when appropriate. Nobody wants to look at a dull jaggy polygonal version of Yoshi's Island.

Other than that though, I don't think Nintendo has anything to learn from Mania. Their games are still incredibly well designed even if they look dull as hell sometimes. And the last thing Mario needs is more retro throwbacks.
 

Greenzxy

Junior Member
I'm pretty sure Nintendo purposely restraints themselves from going too ambitious on the NSMB series, so they don't have to constantly reinvent the next installmemts. Nintendo is the type of company that's most definetly capable of producing great art and imaginative worlds, but won't move forward unless it's absolutely nesscarry, sinice they have the mainline 3D series to work with. They want you to appreciate the finer steps for the 2D games rather than go all out, because once you do, the consumer will ask for more.
 

-shadow-

Member
Nothing? Well outside of being able to disappoint for over two decades and people will still love him for some odd reason. I like Mania as much as the next guy, but Mario games are terrific. Sure the New line is a bit meh, but honestly I think that both 3D Land and World are the true successors to the old 2D games and they're pretty much perfect.
 

Polygonal_Sprite

Gold Member
With the current 80's revival going on in pop culture Nintendo definitely need to return to the pixel art style of the original games merged with what was great about Super Mario World for their next 2D Mario instalment.

Saying that it wouldn't shock me to find out that Nintendo saw mobile as the future platform for their 2D Mario games with a different monetisation approach than Mario Run (F2P with 99c per 5 lives once your 5 free lives per hour run out).
 
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