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Complete Breath of the Wild critique from a Game Dev perspective

TheRed

Member
Only thing I don't agree with is wasted space and fun per inch. I think that type of design is great for the type of games you work on but I think a game like this wants you to get immersed like you fell into a real world sometimes those worlds have empty spaces. Makes finding cool stuff more rewarding if you don't think it's just getting handed to you everywhere you go because the game designer is desperate for you to not have any down time. Then the open world ends up like Skyrim where something pops up every ten steps you take and it feels like a fake amusement park.

Though it's a very subjective opinion which is why it's such a fine line to balance. I may just be weird. Heck I enjoy driving around barren planets in Elite Dangerous just to experience the scale of the world and be immersed but it doesn't offer much in a gamey sense.
 

sanstesy

Member
That's fair. For me, the game was exciting and amazing for 15 hours and by the time I'd done 2 or 3 divine beasts and a lot of shrines it was just.. Utterly boring. I felt obligated to just get on with it by going through the last boring divine beast and the last boring boss and the horribly boring and anticlimactic castle finale.

The reason for the boredom is the game taught me the only incentive to explore is just more of the same shit you've already found. More hearts don't matter after 13. More weapons aren't fun to find because they all play the same and break quickly. Getting new armor is always fun but it's relatively rare and because the game is so easy and there are no new combat challenges to meet it just doesn't feel like it matters. They did a terrible job at presenting the player with more challenges beyond the opening hours and they did a terrible job with populating the world with a variety of things to see and do.

It's a good game, yes. I like the game, and I think it's absolutely the right overall direction for the series... But it feels like, again, they've taken steps in the right direction but they're just not there yet.

Yes, I know your feelings on the game.
 
I think the problem is past zelda games had this much variety if not more and they are no where close to as big. The bigger you get the more things you need to put in.

Absolutely, there should have been more area specific enemies, but I'm just pointing out some of the enemies as the poster was being a little ridiculous with the "3 enemy types" thing
 

Lilo_D

Member
I do want to hear more from dev about their opinions
We already have Game Informer video with several devs from big company and indies
Hope we can make a thread gather all of them
 
I think the problem is past zelda games had this much variety if not more and they are no where close to as big. The bigger you get the more things you need to put in.

Yeah... I feel like most of my criticism have everything to do with the size of the game. Most things about the game are fine, if not great, but it's like Bilbo's line in Fellowship of the Ring, it's like butter scraped over too much bread. This includes enemy variety, shrines, Korok seeds, etc.

Had the world been smaller, it would feel more packed and varied. The enemy variety is solid, but you spend a lot of time running into the same ones. The shrines are cool but where they wanted to fill the world with them there's 120 and they wear out aesthetically. Korok seeds, there's upward of a thousand of them.

I just can't help but feel the need they felt to make such a huge world led to some taxing on creativity and variety in some aspects. Cut that shit down and other things are much less of a problem. This is one of my favorite games ever, I've even spent more than a few moments while playing wondering if it may have dethroned Chrono Trigger as my favorite.

I don't think it has, in the end, because of these quibbles, and how if some of this stuff were handled better and with less repetition that it would've-- perhaps even handily.
 

Skyzard

Banned
Only thing I don't agree with is wasted space and fun per inch. I think that type of design is great for the type of games you work on but I think a game like this wants you to get immersed like you fell into a real world sometimes those worlds have empty spaces. Makes finding cool stuff more rewarding if you don't think it's just getting handed to you everywhere you go because the game designer is desperate for you to not have any down time. Then the open world ends up like Skyrim where something pops up every ten steps you take and it feels like a fake amusement park.

Though it's a very subjective opinion which is why it's such a fine line to balance. I may just be weird. Heck I enjoy driving around barren planets in Elite Dangerous just to experience the scale of the world and be immersed but it doesn't offer much in a gamey sense.

That's valid reasoning and I agree...but also want a little more. Like 20% more variety to make it perfect (along with obvious improvements to common issues).

I hope they do that moving forward, using BotW as a good base but not the pinnacle of what they can achieve and how much to put in a big open world game.
 

Ghandi

Banned
Funny how he links the zelda video of the one and only tablet guy as I just watched it just earlier today.
Nice op anyway

Ok lets go

1. Not being able to dive.
Lets be blunt: What the fuck Zelda team. Smdh.
Numb sound effects and the distored sunlight from above are generally giving me a reason to get out of bed in the morning. Always looking for it in a solidly designed game. Biggest tease in the history of men. Suprising everybody with such a fun designed open world while restricting us from going on a good old useless atmospheric dive just to enjoy the dreamy underwater scenery. Really-really disappointed.

2. Inconsequential quest design.
Look at this world, these graceful sunsettings, these gracefull ghibli deer. It does as a whole not give a shit about you even though you are the savior of time. Gracefullness beyond limits.You can go straight to the endboss after the tutorial. Gracefullness. Skip all the content. Or half of it. They(game devs and overall gameworld populus both) dont give a fuck. Do what you want. Play 120 shrines or only 3. It doesnt matter because no matter what you do, they (game devs) have the balls to assume it probably is something fun, so they set you free to cut corners where you would like to.
This is good.

What is bad is the
hateno inn hookup
quest for example. If someone chooses to engage himself in a quest there should always be a worthy payout in any form whatsoever. Everything else is like designing beautiful water and not allowing you to dive through it. Sadly the latter occours way too often. Questdesign wise they chose quantity over quality and not-being-able to dive over being-able-to dive. Not good.

I see a paralell between the game physics/chemistiry and the quest design.
While the physics and chemistry are of course a simplified version of real world physics and chemistry it still feels natural because of the half realistic half celshading look of the game. It just fits nicely together. They "get away" with non real world physics feeling natural.
I feel like they tried the same with their quest design.
They planned to get away with a lot of shallowness because of its quirky lovely npc design but it doesnt work out as fine as on the physics side. They didnt hit the balance right on this one.
While I still adore it. I adore the lovelyness, the classy mockery, almost everything about the npcs. But short cut and dry fetchquests have really no place there.


3. Meager close quarter combat
When you have enemys with big health pools you need to offer a variety of different possible combos for the player to pull off.
Chemistry based attacks are nice and fun and let you get creative but so does a good combat system. Let them play around with timings and risk reward situations where they choose which combo is the best atm to execute. No way around it. It maybe sounds very off for a Zelda game, but either that, or no big health pool standard enemies. No one likes stunlocking enemies in a simple 3 hit combo with no way to escape for neither of you. Bad game design here.
Also because of this flaw the overworld bosses are only really interesting the first time around you face them.
They want to break conventions, I want to break the water surface, and platinum has to join in for the next Zelda.

4. Teasing you with
being able to ride deer and bears but not to tame them

What the hell. I have nothing to say on this. Truly disgusting.

Also I would like to comment on the repeating content and how player agency influences how people percieve it, but this would only distract from my own rather important obervations :)

Also dsiclaimer if someone just skims my text and only sees the cursewords: botw is my -favourite Zelda and maybe even favourite overall game- just like that, I dare to say this and I dont say this lightly. Masterpiece.

Also a lot of people wouldnt fall so easily for the MC discussion trap, if metacritic would include a more visible tag, with the year of release, right next to the score on their lists, not just the year in simple grey letters,
"It was brilliant for that time- I understood that as soon as the metacritic website design emphasized the year of release a bit more." Done.
 
Absolutely, again, this isn't me trying to bash the game or saying it's anything less than an excellent experience, but it's still a worthwhile exercise to look at where the game stumbled or failed in order to learn from that and build something better. I had an insane amount of fun with BotW, so I hope people won't just cut this down to me ranting or trying to undermine the game.

Won't cut it down to a rant, it's your opinions and you explained them. But i see it different in most points. I don't think they made the world too big or empty and couldn't backpedal, i find it relatively dense and there are so many things to do and explore. The shrines have the same style, what makes sense, as they were built by the Shieka probably at the same time. They are Shieka Shrines. The content of the world is spot on in my impression, you can't make a destroyed world which is overpopulated. Also you have empty spaces in real life too, you need space to ride your horse, to paraglide. The worlds design is pretty good i think, without borders, shrines and even villages hidden well, i know no other game like this, it's open world but feels flawless, no dragons on the borders which hindered your way in Witcher 3 and it's polished to a unbelievable point, i had no bugs or glitches in hundred hours of playing the game . The climbing high places and paraglide feature is really great and even in emptier spaces there is nature, a big amount of wildlife, weathereffects and good sounds, it never feels like the world is dead. in fact i stray from my objective/destination all the time, the world makes it heard to go the straight way and for me it's a really good thing.

A very small overpopulated Hyrule wouldn't have the same impact. You should also consider, that there will be me more story in a downloadcontent (at least one), we are not finished with this Hyrule ;)

The only thing that i wasn't too happy with in the beginning was the way the story is told, but even that changed. It's not perfect, but near enough, for me it's a really great experience that i had with no other game the last years, not even Witcher 3.
 

Nickle

Cool Facts: Game of War has been a hit since July 2013
"finding" dungeons was part of the natural progression of previous Zelda games. They really weren't a product of discovery, they were part of the main story structure and couldn't be avoided.

You mention that stat boosting items are nice but not that rewarding, yet in your previous post you specifically mentioned larger quivers, bomb bags, heart containers and stamina upgrades as these great things that previous Zelda games had over BOTW, lol.


A lot of the upgrades I think you are wrapping your head around from previous Zelda games (specifically dungeon items like the boomerand, hookshot, korok leaf, etc) are items and abilities that are given to you from the get go. Obviously the idea behind BOTW is you have the main tools available to you from the beginning, and the only real limitation is you figuring things out. I understand the idea of getting a new, permanent item from a treasure chest has a sense of accomplishment and progression attached to it, but I think BotW does this in a much more natural way, while still offering a slew of upgrades, outfits, and other secrets.
You had to explore to find the dungeons in Zelda 1. In many other Zelda's, you need to explore in order to find the way to access the dungeon.

My previous response to you covers my feelings about stat boosts.

I know that BotW gives you most of the abilities at the beginning, that's a huge reason why the game doesn't have very good rewards for exploring.
Stamina upgrades are small, but in such a large game they need to be as you've got something to look towards. Compared to how I began, now I have nearly 3 whole rings of stamina I feel like I can go anywhere; before I could barely climb a small hill. There's also the fact that you only get one stamina upgrade in Wind Waker so of course it has to be substantial; stamina upgrades like that for every 4 orbs you get would break the game's climbing system.

As for items, yeah there are fewer overall in the world, but again most items are literally only used once or twice outside of their respective dungeons. They "open up new parts of the world" because it's the game's way of blocking progress, got nothing to do with exploration.

You argue that "there are only a few items in an 80 hour game," when that's hardly the case. There are two major sets of clothing that pretty much open up entire regions to explore, there are many other more minor sets that make a certain part easier/more accessible.

"You don't really find those by exploring."

If you turn off the mini-map and remove the quest markers then yes, you get those by exploring. A lot more than previous games in which each dungeon was practically sign-posted to you by the respective game's helper/map system. If dungeons and dungeon items are obtained through exploring in previous games then they are damn sure obtained by exploring in this one; saying otherwise seems to be a heavy case of double standards.
Stamina upgrades don't necessarily need to be a huge reward, but something does.

Items are often used outside of their respective dungeons, Twilight Princess is the only game that really had issues with this.

I see nothing inherently wrong with items being the key to progress, it feels good to be able access areas that you couldn't before.

Two sets of clothes still isn't much, and that's only assuming that you don't use potions to resist the heat and cold.

Aside from some recent weaker entries which I won't defend, you have to explore the world to figure out ways to access the dungeon.
 

NotLiquid

Member
Honestly, I don't really miss dungeons from previous Zelda games at all.

I will say the Divine Beast dungeons are on the slightly easy side but they made me feel so much more rewarded in solving the puzzles than any 3D Zelda dungeon has allowed me to feel... ever.

But I do agree that they could add more visual pizzazz to the Shrines. Bit of a missed opportunity, but not that much of a dealbreaker.

I don't agree either about the open world, and this is coming from someone who typically finds sandboxes in games to be tedium and distraction moreso than anything. I might make a more detailed post on that later but... it's almost 4 AM here and I need sleep.

I mean we're in a thread made by a developer who was fairly critical of the game.

Also GTA4 98
MGS4 94

MGS4 won GAF GOTY twice, so....

Speaking as someone who fell out of the series after The Wind Waker and never once really got back into it aside from A Link Between Worlds, I practically went into Breath of the Wild with tempered expectations and still went out of it thinking of it as one of my favorite games ever. The game just keeps staying in my mind, and in a way few games can really compare. Is it literal perfection? I'm not sure I'd say that, but then again, no 10/10 game is - like every other perfect scoring game they're merely products of their time, games that can stand as a golden exemplar in it's genre and the benchmark of what the future titles of it's ilk will have to be judged by. To me, Breath of the Wild fits that mold and I think for more reasons than we might realize, which is going to make retrospective analysis on the game far more interesting than most Zelda games - because I'm really not sold on the "it's just a honeymoon period" argument, at least personally. In the two weeks I've owned it I've only been able to put aside three or four hours every day at most with it, and that's if I'm lucky, so I can't say I've been blindsided by the hype through extensive investment.

Yeah, we have one dev weighing in on how the design measures up from one perspective, but we have another dev in here weighing in with some solid counterpoints, and the other day we had a topic about several big triple A directors on a podcast talking about how great it was in terms of design and conditioning. I don't think it's that binary.
 
Honestly, I don't really miss dungeons from previous Zelda games at all.

I will say the Divine Beast dungeons are on the slightly easy side but they made me feel so much more rewarded in solving the puzzles than any 3D Zelda dungeon has allowed me to feel... ever.

This is true of the Divine Beasts. However, I DO miss the traditional dungeons still BECAUSE these were shorter and I thought the bosses were pretty lame and repetitive. Had the Divine Beasts changed up their visual aesthetics, were a bit lengthier and had actual varied bosses? We'd be talking. There's been a few times where I've thought man these are better than traditional dungeons, but those few things hold them back I think.

So I still miss them because I think despite being conceptually amazing, they didn't fully give me that same satisfaction especially with the bosses. Improve this stuff and I probably wouldn't miss them either.
 

Jobbs

Banned
MGS4 won GAF GOTY twice, so....

You're actually reinforcing my statement.

I said I think BOTW will, in time, have some form of backlash. No one seems to be parsing the "in time" part. And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. It's just a feeling.

In time, opinion turned against GTA4 in a pretty big way (and MGS4)... While I can't say definitively why, I think some of the same things that caused that to happen for those games are in place for it to happen for BOTW.
 
You had to explore to find the dungeons in Zelda 1. In many other Zelda's, you need to explore in order to find the way to access the dungeon.

Lol well absolutely, but damn dude you are going all the way back to Zelda 1. In future Zelda games, the "exploration" to find dungeons was pretty damn linear and again, part of the main quest, as in they can't be avoided.

My previous response to you covers my feelings about stat boosts.

I mean you really haven't. More than half the stuff you mentioned in your initial post about previous Zeldas having better rewards were versions of stat boosts, and then you went off to complain about stat boosts in BotW.

I know that BotW gives you most of the abilities at the beginning, that's a huge reason why the game doesn't have very good rewards for exploring.

Stamina upgrades don't necessarily need to be a huge reward, but something does.

I'll spoil tag these just in case, but some of the rewards for exploring in BotW, independent of the main quest, korok seeds and the shrine heart/stamina upgrades
-Extremely rare, powerful weapons, like the elemental swords. There are 3 variations of melee fire, electric, and ice weapons, in addition to the centaur weapons.
- Rare items (dragon scales, shards, hinnox items, etc) to help upgrade your outfits.
-Sheikah slate upgrades
- You have to locate another observatory center to get sheikah armor and weapons
- there are various rewards for new clothes, don't want to spoil them for you, but they take awhile to get.

Items are often used outside of their respective dungeons, Twilight Princess is the only game that really had issues with this.

It's been awhile since I have played some of the previous Zeldas, but one of the common complaints I do remember was that half or more of your items from dungeons were rarely used, and that argument wasn't exclusive to Twilight Princess


Two sets of clothes still isn't much, and that's only assuming that you don't use potions to resist the heat and cold.

There are more than 2 sets of clothes that offer special abilities. Far more than previous Zeldas in every aspect, in fact.


I feel like you are contradicting yourself with this "rewards" argument. Based on what you said, I think your problem is more that you prefer a more linear progression to your games, and the dungeon items from previous Zeldas provided that. You are confusing that with "exploring" and making some pretty contradictory statements.
 
MGS4 won twice because it's that damn good.

Anyway I love this game and I love discussing its flaws. Zelda is my favorite series and this game is a gem, but it's also far from perfect and I like to see people talk about what they didn't like as Nintendo IS listening. This game feeks like a direct answer to the problems people had with Skyward Sword.

MY problem on a personal level is that I thought Skyward was amazing and that while it has some annoyances it does most things I love about Zelda so damned well. But again those problems people had led to this new one addressing many of them while, for me, not coming close to topping it in other avenues.

That's the thing about Zelda. What things some people love, others don't. I'll defend Skyward to my grave, but I'm glad the critics are outspoken because it did have flaws and Wild addressed some. But the stronger elements of Skyward, I didn't think Wild handled as well. I'm not really under the impression that Nintendo will ever make the "perfect" Zelda because they're always experimenting and trying new things.

This keeps the series alive through all these decades and I wouldn't have it any other way. I love Breath of the Wild, but I have problems with it. Some kinda big. But by this game NOT doing everything perfectly, well, all that means is more than enough reason to anticipate the next.
 
MGS4 won twice because it's that damn good.

Anyway I love this game and I love discussing its flaws. Zelda is my favorite series and this game is a gem, but it's also far from perfect and I like to see people talk about what they didn't like as Nintendo IS listening. This game feeks like a direct answer to the problems people had with Skyward Sword.

MY problem on a personal level is that I thought Skyward was amazing and that while it has some annoyances it does most things I love about Zelda so damned well. But again those problems people had led to this new one addressing many of them while, for me, not coming close to topping it in other avenues.

That's the thing about Zelda. What things some people love, others don't. I'll defend Skyward to my grave, but I'm glad the critics are outspoken because it did have flaws and Wild addressed some. But the stronger elements of Skyward, I didn't think Wild handled as well. I'm not really under the impression that Nintendo will ever make the "perfect" Zelda because they're always experimenting and trying new things.

This keeps the series alive through all these decades and I wouldn't have it any other way. I love Breath of the Wild, but I have problems with it. Some kinda big. But by this game NOT doing everything perfectly, well, all that means is more than enough reason to anticipate the next.

This is a fantastic post. It's also why I post so much about what's wrong because I hope Nintendo is some what listening and I have a stupid hope that maybe next time they make my dream zelda game. This one is clearly not it but like all zelda games it's great, it's unique, it will have its lovers and it will have its detractors.
 

Jimrpg

Member
Awesome read, and I'm still waiting for my copy of Zelda to arrive but I did notice many of the things you said in the brief amount of previews I've watched of the game and now I'm excited to try Ori and the Blind Forest as well.
 
You're actually reinforcing my statement.

I said I think BOTW will, in time, have some form of backlash. No one seems to be parsing the "in time" part. And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. It's just a feeling.

In time, opinion turned against GTA4 in a pretty big way (and MGS4)... While I can't say definitively why, I think some of the same things that caused that to happen for those games are in place for it to happen for BOTW.

Okay, man, these two posts about you are starting to feel really spot-on:

to be clear I'm sure there are people who don't/won't like breath of the wild and will be quite vocal about it compared to the critical reception. it is a zelda game, after all.

I just think it's funny how many times I've seen you post something like that, so sure that the people who love the game aren't seeing things as clearly as you. the way you always frame that argument puts your opinion on a pedestal and seeks to invalidate the opinion of others. that's pretty much it. it's not that you don't like the game or think the reception could cool in the future, it's the smugness with which you present your opinion.

Again you are actively living out confirmation bias. There is nothing wrong with your opinion. You didn't enjoy the game as much as others have. As you say, you liked the game yourself. That's fine. But what if, your opinion is a minority opinion and not representative of the majority or the critical consensus of BOTW? Maybe, just maybe most people who play the game like it more than you do. It seems like you can't let that go. You need to be right about how this game isn't as great as other people say it is and you're employing some pretty disingenuous mental gymnastics to maintain the illusion like "when real human beings play this game, they'll agree with me."


...I mean, what are the 'things' that you think have BoTW poised for a similar backlash to those two games? Have you even considered why those two games reviewed the way they did, or why there was backlash against them at all? I'd find it hard to believe you see genuine similarities between these situations if you did. MGS4 and GTA IV both were highly rated because they were seen as bringing in the next generation of gaming. They were far and away the most ambitious titles on any platform, and painted an epic picture for the future of AAA gaming. Those games blew minds on the merit of their presentations and detail, during a time when journalists and gamers alike were trying to validate video gaming as an art form... leading to insane hyperbole that didn't even touch on either game's narrative or design failings. BoTW, on the other hand, releasing during a far harsher review climate, managed to garner high critical acclaim despite technical issues and visual datedness based almost solely on the merits of its gameplay and design. The situations are apples and oranges, man.
 
This is a fantastic post. It's also why I post so much about what's wrong because I hope Nintendo is some what listening and I have a stupid hope that maybe next time they make my dream zelda game. This one is clearly not it but like all zelda games it's great, it's unique, it will have its lovers and it will have its detractors.

They are, and the developers are probably eating up any criticism. They're artists with heavy passion and vision. Aonuma was just like yeah we can do better and that's what makes Nintendo so great, even when they work for years on one game with all they can put in, THEY'RE never satisfied and artists, again, feel like there's room to go up.

They don't go oh our game is a fucking masterpiece, just look at those reviews bitches! At this point the game is out and they're already scheming I'm sure. Breath of the Wild is huge and insane and beautiful and a masterful entry, but not 100% perfect. I'm sure the next game will improve on things while having its own faults. But that's what gives us the means to criticize and suggest improvements.
 

Owensboro

Member
I'm not a developer, but I really appreciate a thread on this game that hasn't devolved into name calling, swearing, and hyperbole (yet) while still discussing critiques. My two cents:

Re: Non-worthwhile rewards (Korok Seeds and Spirit Orbs) in relation to wasted space.

I think I've played around 80 hours of this game so far and those rewards started to get "stale" for me around, oh, probably the 40 hour mark. In the beginning of the game Korok Seeds and Spirit Orbs are infinitely more valuable than almost anything else you can get. Seeds lead directly towards an increased inventory (weapons, shields, bows) thus removing any anxiety I had about breaking good weapons on useless enemies, and Spirit Orbs lead directly to me getting more stamina to not worry about climbing, swimming, or gliding while exploring. That in itself led me to want to adventure and find everything in the world. From almost any high point in the world you can look in any direction and find something that's going to reward you with more inventory or more stamina/hearts. That "wasted space" between towns and stables was a constant adventure of trying to see anything that would help me get stronger. Each strange looking thing was immediately begging to be investigated. Upon discovering what was required to get a certain item, suddenly those spirit orbs became even more precious as I desperately wanted to get it. Each
1/4th of heart
I was getting was suddenly the best reward in the game because it was leading directly towards
The Master Sword
.

The point where these rewards became underwhelming was the point where I had become so powerful I should really just have beaten the game or critical path-ed to the end, but I kept exploring to fill out my map. This began wearing thin because my rewards were effectively nothing. I have my full stamina wheel, my fancy weapons, multiple weapon slots, and enough hearts to survive being one-shot. Now that I'm uber-powerful the world has become much less about exploring and more about me being obsessively completioninst. Had I just accepted that I was super powerful and already gone to fight Gannon I'm sure they wouldn't seem as underwhelming, but I've done this to myself and I accept it. I'm still putzing around the map looking for secrets (I have one more area left to really explore) but I'm still gaining joy from doing them (except Tests of Strength, at this point they are wastes of good weapons, but again that's because I'm much too "powerful" in game to be doing this).

I don't really know where i'm going with all this. I think I'm trying to get at: the Korok Seeds and Spirit Orbs did their jobs so effectively that it made them useless towards the end of the game, which then made exploring less rewarding. However, I don't actually think this is a bad thing (strangely enough). For about half the game they're the best things you can find. For the rest of the game, they're for completionist idiots like myself. I like that they give you the option to become super powerful and obsessively explore the world, or just ignore them and see the world as open and useless space.

...I'm mostly likely just talking into the void, but I wanted to type that out for some reason. Thanks for letting me ramble :)
 

Nickle

Cool Facts: Game of War has been a hit since July 2013
Lol well absolutely, but damn dude you are going all the way back to Zelda 1. In future Zelda games, the "exploration" to find dungeons was pretty damn linear and again, part of the main quest, as in they can't be avoided.



I mean you really haven't. More than half the stuff you mentioned in your initial post about previous Zeldas having better rewards were versions of stat boosts, and then you went off to complain about stat boosts in BotW.



I'll spoil tag these just in case, but some of the rewards for exploring in BotW, independent of the main quest, korok seeds and the shrine heart/stamina upgrades
-Extremely rare, powerful weapons, like the elemental swords. There are 3 variations of melee fire, electric, and ice weapons, in addition to the centaur weapons.
- Rare items (dragon scales, shards, hinnox items, etc) to help upgrade your outfits.
-Sheikah slate upgrades
- You have to locate another observatory center to get sheikah armor and weapons
- there are various rewards for new clothes, don't want to spoil them for you, but they take awhile to get.



It's been awhile since I have played some of the previous Zeldas, but one of the common complaints I do remember was that half or more of your items from dungeons were rarely used, and that argument wasn't exclusive to Twilight Princess




There are more than 2 sets of clothes that offer special abilities. Far more than previous Zeldas in every aspect, in fact.


I feel like you are contradicting yourself with this "rewards" argument. Based on what you said, I think your problem is more that you prefer a more linear progression to your games, and the dungeon items from previous Zeldas provided that. You are confusing that with "exploring" and making some pretty contradictory statements.
Exploration has little to do with non-linearity, there may only be one way to progress the main story, but you still need to explore the world to figure out the way to progress the main story. Zelda 1 is the only game where you can stumble upon the entrance to dungeons just by exploring the world, I figured it was worth distinguishing from the way that recent Zeldas handle the dungeons.

Again, I said that each individual stat boost in BotW is less rewarding then the large stat boosts in most other Zelda games, and even then, previous Zelda games had much better rewards then just stat boosting items, whereas BotW really doesn't.

For this things you spoilered:
I'm already swimming in elemental weapons, so it's not really a good reward any more. Even then, they are still just temporary weapons with the same 3 elemental effects that my arrows have.
Monster loot is used to make more stat boosts.
Shiekah Slate upgrades are decent, but you get them all from the Plateau and Hateno lab as part of the main quest.
I haven't gotten any new abilities from clothing sets yet, so I can't comment on what those could be.

I don't think I'm contradicting anything, the rewards you get for exploring the world of BotW generally are not nearly as interesting or substantial as the items you get in other Zeldas. Play an older Zelda game, you'll see what I mean.
 
As a non-dev, was hoping for a bit more of a technical analysis of the game. Apart from maybe 3 posts, this feels like any other argument regarding the merits of the game. Not a big deal as everyone has been reasonable about their positions but, to the extent there are developers who want to take a deeper dive, I, as a newb, would much appreciate reading it:)
 
Exploration has little to do with non-linearity, there may only be one way to progress the main story, but you still need to explore the world to figure out the way to progress the main story. Zelda 1 is the only game where you can stumble upon the entrance to dungeons just by exploring the world, I figured it was worth distinguishing from the way that recent Zeldas handle the dungeons.

Again, I said that each individual stat boost in BotW is less rewarding then the large stat boosts in most other Zelda games, and even then, previous Zelda games had much better rewards then just stat boosting items, whereas BotW really doesn't.

For this things you spoilered:
I'm already swimming in elemental weapons, so it's not really a good reward any more. Even then, they are still just temporary weapons with the same 3 elemental effects that my arrows have.
Monster loot is used to make more stat boosts.
Shiekah Slate upgrades are decent, but you get them all from the Plateau and Hateno lab as part of the main quest.
I haven't gotten any new abilities from clothing sets yet, so I can't comment on what those could be.

I don't think I'm contradicting anything, the rewards you get for exploring the world of BotW generally are not nearly as interesting or substantial as the items you get in other Zeldas. Play an older Zelda game, you'll see what I mean.

Here is another thing, every single bonus you can get from clothes outside the abilities one of Zora can be done with potions. The potions allow you to basically do anything you want in the game at any time temporarily. That's neat but it also makes the rewards feel like it's just a permanent potion, then the potion becomes irrelevant.
 

spock

Member
Hi Developer! Another fellow developer here. I love the thoughtfulness of your feedback, as it's well written. I however feel like you are looking at it from the wrong player perspective, which is limiting how you can perceive the game. Please allow me to give you some rebuttal.



First, as a developer, you need to understand there are a LOT of types of players out there. You played the game to completion, which is something for an average game, is usually around 5% of your audience at best. Most players won't do everything in your game. This doesn't mean you need to make that 100% experience any worse, but it does mean you need to make sure the experience works for all player types. I'll get into that a bit more...



So, normally I would agree with you. I also personally HATE open world games. However, it's very important here to note that Nintendo's primary goal here was to make a game like Zelda 1, a game like Miyamoto's old experiences as a child exploring, a game where you are truly on an adventure. Exploring a large vast world. I don't disagree with your philosophy at Moon, but I do think player experience is being ignored if you have a hard and fast rule. In this case, Nintendo is focusing on pacing and separation, where they want the player to look around, choose a goal, journey towards that goal, then experience that goal. Each element of that player journey should be meaningful. If it was too short or dense, then choice paralysis can kick in, as well that part of the journey is no longer meaningful, and instead becomes a chore.


As a developer, I'm sure you understand the concept of limited resources, so the question comes is it worth that artists time, or that engineers time, and for what gain? So a small puzzle will feel a little different? That's probably not the best use of resources, that could instead go somewhere else.

In addition, as I mentioned about player experience, not every player is going to do every shrine. If 95% of your audience will only do half the shrines, is it that detrimental if a few repeat (and let's be fair, they don't actually REPEAT, they are just super similar...no different that certain stars in Mario 64 for example.)



So if I sound harsh, I apologize...but this is where you're missing that Nintendo design mentality. Each shrine was designed in a way that it could be your first. (I know, you're thinking Major ones wouldn't fit that bill.) But the point is if you had such a stark difference in difficulty, you risk ruining a players experience because they happened to stumble onto this particular shrine. Each shrine is meant to be about the same, and could be your very first.

The same is true with Korok seeds. They are meant to be a small thing to reward being observant. That's it. Not some series of challenges to overcome with a difficulty curve. It's clear that's why there are 900 of them...and why you hear most players go "Wow I only have like 40-60!" They are meant to cover a wide range of player experiences, so the likeliness of people finding a few is very high.


Same comments as before. I kind of agree with this one, but everything comes at a cost. When I saw my 3rd skull cave with a lantern hanging though, I wondered if it's a bit much as well. This could just be some small level design of making sure similar structure types feel different enough.


There's a lot in this one so let me try to break it down.
If combat didn't pause, it would likely be to difficult for a large audience. Again, Nintendo's goal is accessibility, and while I know it sort of "dampers the experience" for seasoned gamers, trying to imagine a less skilled gamer running from enemies trying to bring out the next weapon seems less than ideal for that audience.

Shield Surfing is indeed complex. I agree with that. As a developer though, pointing out the problem is 10% of the battle. The other 90% is finding a better solution. Thought?

And lastly I watched that UI video. While it starts off well enough, the solution is sort of specialized. The suggested UI that pops up would ONLY WORK for chest instances. If this UI popped up each time you tried to pick up a weapon, that would pause game play even more, which would be really annoying every time you accidentally picked up a stick. It does improve the chest opening part though for sure! So again, its a question of resources and return.


I haven't done enough to get a full grasp here, but overall I'd likely agree. These always seem like super optional stuff, which is why they never seem that meaningful.


You'd of course be right. Again, resources. Nintendo chose to focus on the WORLD, not the dungeons. I'd barely even call the beasts dungeons.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. Knowing how GAF works, I likely put too much time into a response no one will read anyway. If you have any questions, PM me as I don't read GAF that often anymore.


Fully read your post btw and pretty much agree with you. What is interesting to me is some of your observations are the conclusions I've come to as a player trying to understand why botw grabs me and many others so strongly. I made a comment in another thread saying how botw is a hardcore game for a more casual or broad audience. I'm a lapsed gamer in the sense I thought I grew out of games (39yo) till botw. It literally brought back a child like wonder I never expected.

Your thoughts were on point. From a design perspective, never knowing what shrine will be done next or how many aspects of the game the player will CHOOSE to experience or complete I think encapsulates the reasoning behind many of the decisions. They tried to make any user playing have a complete experience during each sit down (experience, meaning, creating the sense of freedom,exploration,discovery, etc) and in how they play and when/how long they play, etc.

I'm a father of two young kids also playing botw, and watching them play in their own unique ways is what helped me come to similar conclusions. For example my younger daughter's first shrine beyond the plateau was one of the much more complicated yet rewarding ones in the game. A shrine, when thinking in a linear sense you expect to be encountered much later in the game. Yet here my 8yo was. She had a blast doing the shrine. Even though it was more involved she was able to do it. Her approach to the game was more stealth. She only engages in combat if she has to.

My other daughter has her own style of play as do I. Yet our differences work great in botw and are still tons of fun. I do think some play styles and personality types fit botw better, but it seems it was built to appeal on a deeper level to a much more varied spectrum of gamers. Which given the type of game it is (adventure,rpg,sandbox,etc.) Is a crazy amazing accomplishment.

I think your spot on that they didn't build the game with traditional completionists in mind. It's why they give so many key pieces of gear to the player so early on. While there are differences between someone who's played the game 10 hours vs someone at 50 hours, the differences seem more superficial than foundational. That seems to fit with complaints more traditional progression oriented gamers have made.

Enjoying all the dev feedback. Appreciate it.
 

Moff

Member
but the shrines were definitely themed after the zone they were placed in weren't they? you dud play with fire in the death mountain zone, and with electricity in the desert zone.
I do agree that some varied visual design would not have hurt.

Also I think they game did a really great job at presenting a believable world, the best of all zeldas at least.
this is a post-apocalyptic world with tons of dangerous monsters around after all, it's not like it's supposed to be highly populated. NPCs have places to sleep etc. and I loved the many encounters on the roads.
 

hawk2025

Member
Hmm, I don't know.

The main thing I could not relate at all with the OP is in describing the world.

The game suceeds precisely where every single other open world game failed: the world DID feel hand-crafted, engaging and yet still sprawling and with a gigantic sense of scale for me.

No other game has come close to achieving this (Witcher 3, Far Cry, even Horizon): they all feel like an open map where content was dropped, where Zelda feels like a proper world with things in it and fun content at every corner.
 

TLZ

Banned
The fact that you just wrote an entire essay specifically addressing BotW's faults and yet you still consider it to be one of the best games Nintendo has ever made just shows how special this game truly is.

Most of your criticisms are totally valid too. The game is great, but there's tons of room for improvement moving forward. Can't wait to see how they improve on this formula for the next entry.

And that is why it's not a 10/10 game. I agree with almost everything he said (though i do appreciate empty spaces because they allow me to explore and think more) and I have a bit more too that would've made this game seamless.
 
Exploration has little to do with non-linearity, there may only be one way to progress the main story, but you still need to explore the world to figure out the way to progress the main story. Zelda 1 is the only game where you can stumble upon the entrance to dungeons just by exploring the world, I figured it was worth distinguishing from the way that recent Zeldas handle the dungeons.

Again, I said that each individual stat boost in BotW is less rewarding then the large stat boosts in most other Zelda games, and even then, previous Zelda games had much better rewards then just stat boosting items, whereas BotW really doesn't.

For this things you spoilered:
I'm already swimming in elemental weapons, so it's not really a good reward any more. Even then, they are still just temporary weapons with the same 3 elemental effects that my arrows have.
Monster loot is used to make more stat boosts.
Shiekah Slate upgrades are decent, but you get them all from the Plateau and Hateno lab as part of the main quest.
I haven't gotten any new abilities from clothing sets yet, so I can't comment on what those could be.

I don't think I'm contradicting anything, the rewards you get for exploring the world of BotW generally are not nearly as interesting or substantial as the items you get in other Zeldas. Play an older Zelda game, you'll see what I mean.


Again, you are going to have to mention the substantial rewards you get for exploring the worlds in previous Zelda games that are above and beyond what's in BotW, because so far all you've mentioned are quiver and bomb bag upgrades, and heart containers, all stat upgrades that you previously stated you found not rewarding in BotW, lol.

The only things that are really jump at me are the variety of masks in Majora's Mask (most of which don't do much of anything) and the combat moves in Twilight Princess. Otherwise I'm not getting these vastly superior rewards that you keep saying are in abundance in previous Zelda games. And your argument that the stat boosts "feel" more important in the other Zelda's seems a little like you are grasping at straws.

This brings me back to why I think you prefer a more linear, handcuffed game in terms of progression (which is not even a bad thing, it's a preference). The items feel more important to you in the previous Zelda games because you are more constricted int he previous Zelda games early on.

Here is another thing, every single bonus you can get from clothes outside the abilities one of Zora can be done with potions. The potions allow you to basically do anything you want in the game at any time temporarily. That's neat but it also makes the rewards feel like it's just a permanent potion, then the potion becomes irrelevant.

I think that's a fair point. It's also important to note there are levels to the various abilities potions and clothes get to you (I believe 3 levels), so for example if you only have a portion of the winter clothes you do still need the warming potions.
 

Lilo_D

Member
And that is why it's not a 10/10 game. I agree with almost everything he said (though i do appreciate empty spaces because they allow me to explore and think more) and I have a bit more too that would've made this game seamless.
people need to get away with 10/10 score
 

MoonFrog

Member
Hmmm...appreciate the thread. Already copy/pasted my thoughts on the game once, not going to subject you all to that again, but, yes, I think it is important to talk about what worked and maybe didn't work, because Zelda team has always been one to take criticism in mind and answer it in their own way as they see fit on self-reflection.

Critical conversations that are that, critical, are a good thing.
 

Forkball

Member
people need to get away with 10/10 score
This. So many people are going into the game expecting it to be absolutely perfect i.e. a 10 out of 10. So when people do stumble upon something they don't like, it's magnified and an "Aha!" moment for critics. A perfect score doesn't mean the game is flawless, it means it provides an experience that few games have rivaled. It's not a dog show where they're taking off points for every nitpick. If it were, no game would ever get a 10.
 

Trickster

Member
Huh, reading this, it explain why I felt like I kept seeing the same things over and over in streams and the video reviews i saw
 

Maximus.

Member
The game isn't perfect and you made a lot of good points that I agree with, but I can't believe how much I love this game. I just hope we see more games that are this mind blowing, whether it's a Zelda sequel or whatever.
 

Totakeke

Member
This. So many people are going into the game expecting it to be absolutely perfect i.e. a 10 out of 10. So when people do stumble upon something they don't like, it's magnified and an "Aha!" moment for critics. A perfect score doesn't mean the game is flawless, it means it provides an experience that few games have rivaled. It's not a dog show where they're taking off points for every nitpick. If it were, no game would ever get a 10.

Yeah, and that is why the game getting such high scores is incredible in this day and age. It's totally fine if someone doesn't like the game, but unfortunately it feels like the review scores are often their biggest issue rather than the game itself.
 

neohwa

Junior Member
I think Breath of the Wild is a tremendous game, a huge achievement and easily one of the best games Nintendo ever made.

Reading review of this game is weird.

It's always: this game has so many flaws! But still it's one of the best game ever!!(without any explanation). It's so good!(but exactly what? can't say.) Now read these 100 flaws!(but the game is a 10 anyway!)

If you think this game is overrated, just say it. It's okay.

So let's try to have an objective, level-headed discussion on what else could be improved to make new Zelda AND open-world games better! What are your thoughts?

Make new Zelda not open-world. Give us old Zelda which has tight and excellent level design. Instant improvement.

There is no way to make open-world games better because they are fundamentally flawed. They have no respect to a player's time and they are ridiculously bloated and repetitive. When you have a new mission you shouldn't have to run 5 mins mindlessly just to start it. That's not fun nor immersive.
 

pringles

Member
Hmm, I don't know.

The main thing I could not relate at all with the OP is in describing the world.

The game suceeds precisely where every single other open world game failed: the world DID feel hand-crafted, engaging and yet still sprawling and with a gigantic sense of scale for me.

No other game has come close to achieving this (Witcher 3, Far Cry, even Horizon): they all feel like an open map where content was dropped, where Zelda feels like a proper world with things in it and fun content at every corner.
Agreed. The world is incredibly well made, 100% handcrafted. No matter where you are, look around and you'll see easily recognizable landmarks, points of interest, unique characteristics of the area you're in and so on. The majority of quests give you directions based on landmarks rather than just putting a waypoint on the target. It's actually making me pay attention to the exact words of the NPCs! "At noon, the shadow of the tower will lead you there", "Line up the 3 pines and turn your back to them", etc..
In Skyrim or other open-worlds you just skip the dialogue because a waypoint will lead you exactly where you need to go.

It's also remarkable how perfect the balance of density is. It's never too empty, never too tedious to get around.. yet it feels so insanely massive.
 
Personally, I wouldn't. I like the bite sized puzzles and I think overall it's more approachable for a good portion of people.

I like the bite sized shrines too.

My 7 year old nephew who doesn't really play games like Zelda loves just exploring the world and running of on an adventure. He needs some help with the enemies as he just runs straight for the divine beasts but for the shrines, he just does them on his own. He feels accomplished after he solves one shrine. Their simplicity makes it easier for people to solve them and just go around the world exploring and taking their own specialized journey across Hyrule.
 

Lilo_D

Member
Reading review of this game is weird.

It's always: this game has so many flaws! But still it's one of the best game ever!!(without any explanation). It's so good!(but exactly what? can't say.) Now read these 100 flaws!(but the game is a 10 anyway!)

nono most reviews state very clear why this game is good
 

Nickle

Cool Facts: Game of War has been a hit since July 2013
You're actually reinforcing my statement.

I said I think BOTW will, in time, have some form of backlash. No one seems to be parsing the "in time" part. And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. It's just a feeling.

In time, opinion turned against GTA4 in a pretty big way (and MGS4)... While I can't say definitively why, I think some of the same things that caused that to happen for those games are in place for it to happen for BOTW.
The Zelda fanbase will probably be much more critical of the game once the honeymoon period wears off, but I don't think the wider gaming community is going to give it much backlash. The average gamer's 3 favorite single player games are Minecraft, GTA V, and Skyrim. They aren't going to care about the lack of dungeons, item progression, unique content, or melodies like the Zelda fanbase will. They want to run around in a big world, craft things, and beat monsters up in silly ways, and BotW is a brilliant game for doing that.
Again, you are going to have to mention the substantial rewards you get for exploring the worlds in previous Zelda games that are above and beyond what's in BotW, because so far all you've mentioned are quiver and bomb bag upgrades, and heart containers, all stat upgrades that you previously stated you found not rewarding in BotW, lol.

The only things that are really jump at me are the variety of masks in Majora's Mask (most of which don't do much of anything) and the combat moves in Twilight Princess. Otherwise I'm not getting these vastly superior rewards that you keep saying are in abundance in previous Zelda games. And your argument that the stat boosts "feel" more important in the other Zelda's seems a little like you are grasping at straws.

This brings me back to why I think you prefer a more linear, handcuffed game in terms of progression (which is not even a bad thing, it's a preference). The items feel more important to you in the previous Zelda games because you are more constricted int he previous Zelda games early on.
...dungeons and items are the substantial award, I've said that quite a few times. Exploring the world has just been a bigger part of the main quest in previous Zelda's, whereas it is mostly optional in BotW.
 

Jobbs

Banned
Ok...I mean, what are the 'things' that you think have BoTW poised for a similar backlash to those two games?

The novelty of Zelda being completely different than ever before and the insane, astronomical, unbelievable hype and hyperbole around the game.

No one seems to be describing the game as it is. As it is, it's a decent sandbox. But in the current hyperverse, peoples minds are being absolutely blown because a dog can do a trick or you can feed an apple to a horse or because physicsy stuff or because enemies can track objects and pick them up to throw or swing.

The hyperbole around the game had me believing, going in, that it was a game where you could basically do anything, and all of its systems ran deep and if I thought I could do something I could probably do it. But none of that is the case.

The horse system is a good example.

I didn't know how to tame horses initially, but I expected a deep system because of hype. I found a black horse that I thought was pretty and I was trying to tame it. If I snuck up and mounted it, it would attempt to buck me off. Initially I was trying to time my button presses to stay on, and kept getting bucked off. I assumed that since the systems run deep and everything is complex and realistic that I could tame him by repeatedly trying to mount him and that eventually he'd get used to me. No, that's not the case at all. All you need to do is spam the button faster and/or have more stamina.

Next: Bond level. I assumed you grew a bond over time by cooperating with the horse and getting used to eachother. Nah. I mean, that might work, but you can just force apples into its mouth for a minute until its bond level is maxed out. Because, you know, if you think something should work, it works.

Everything is skin deep and pointless in this game, but because it's a bold new direction for Zelda (and I agree, it is) and because of all of the hype people are enraptured. This effect is amplified because the first 15-20 hours hold an incredible amount of promise and intrigue (and promise that the game never follows through on).

Anything isn't possible, and anything doesn't work just because it seems like it should.
 
...dungeons and items are the substantial award, I've said that quite a few times. Exploring the world has just been a bigger part of the main quest in previous Zelda's, whereas it is mostly optional in BotW.

It seems like you either refuse or cannot mention specific items.

You are still speaking to the linear progression of the previous 3d Zelda's main story as your definition of "exploring". Myself and I imagine most other here are referring to the non linear aspect of traversing the land, looking for new locations and interesting areas not related to the main quest when we are referring to the merits of "exploring" and the rewards for that type of non linear game play.

BotW, substantially more than previous modern Zelda games, encourages you to make your own path from beginning to end in the game, so yes, a vast majority of the game is optional. That being said, BotW does a lot of very good things to push the player towards curiosity and non linear play, moreso than any previous 3d Zelda before it. This reaffirms what I was telling you before. You seem to be more interested in structured, linear Zelda games that have constrictions until you progress. Nothing wrong with that, but don't misrepresent that as other weird arguments such as exploration "rewards".
 
to be clear I'm sure there are people who don't/won't like breath of the wild and will be quite vocal about it compared to the critical reception. it is a zelda game, after all.

I just think it's funny how many times I've seen you post something like that, so sure that the people who love the game aren't seeing things as clearly as you. the way you always frame that argument puts your opinion on a pedestal and seeks to invalidate the opinion of others. that's pretty much it. it's not that you don't like the game or think the reception could cool in the future, it's the smugness with which you present your opinion.

You should have seem him in Uncharted 4 threads.

Weird how that one took GAF's GotY award though.

Just like with UC4, BotW has some issues, but that doesn't mean the community is going to turn on the game all of a sudden in a few months.
 

Jobbs

Banned
You should have seem him in Uncharted 4 threads.

Weird how that one took GAF's GotY award though.

Just like with UC4, BotW has some issues, but that doesn't mean the community is going to turn on the game all of a sudden in a few months.

I never predicted UC4 backlash. I think the game is boring, but I don't anticipate any backlash for it -- A lot of why I find it boring is I don't care about the story and characters, and clearly other people do. That's fine.
 
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