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Rogue One is a better Star Wars film than The Force Awakens

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I agree, Rogue One was an infinitely better film, more entertaining in every way.

The big problem with Force Awakens is that's it just a huge rehash and barely moves the story along.

I've seen RO 5 times but FA only twice. FA didn't offer enough to justify being a movie itself.
 

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Dude, if Rogue One came out in 1977, people would've killed George for being a literal witch.

I meant using the technology of the time.
 

Surfinn

Member
Its about 10 seconds. Insignificant would be they walk by in the background. They bump shoulders to show the badassness and if the audience doesn't realize who it his, his partner jumps into frame for a close up. The whole verbal exchange is odd too, like is this supposed to cement the idea that you guys are badasses and when we learn they the death penalty in 12 systems we can say "yeah I can see that" while noding.

If they were set on showing them, I would of rather they either keep them in the background or give them something to do. It just felt really, I don't know, tacky.

Sorry, it is a quick scene but just came off as why?. And since you did it, why like that.

recently saw it so it stuck out in my head. at least they got another rogue one toy figure to sell now.
Look I agree that it was dumb but it's a ten second cameo that has literally no bearing on the story or characters. It's not worth caring too much about, is it? I think they should do a better job with some of their callbacks in the future but..

This comes off as overly sensitive to me.

It's still incredibly insignificant.
 
Aside from maybe the robot, there's not a single interesting or entertaining character in the movie. It's just very bland. Force Awakens has its faults, but I think it's definitely a better movie.
 

McLovin

Member
What parts seemed chopped up?
Well when I watched in the theater I had no idea who these people were or what their motivations are. Like we got a little back story in the biggining but after that it was all generic sci-fi characters trying to get plans for the Death Star. Which they didn't stop btw and they all died in the end. None of the characters had any real chemistry so anything more then just being on the same team seemed completely forced. It felt like all the small scenes that gave more light into their motivations got completely cut out.
 

Gobias

Banned
I don't know how some people can say RO is better because it doesn't rely on nostalgia on much when the scene everyone mentions as a favorite is the pointless Vader scene at the end.
 
This sounds picky but I still wish we got those scenes that were in the trailers but were not in the actually movie. I was waiting for that TIE Fighter.
 

Pineapple

Member
Rogue One is a better Star Wars film than The Force Awakens

I agree.

I just feel the characters were better developed in Rogue One than Force Awakens. You can see Jyn transform from someone apathetic and directionless to passionate and determined. She grows from being a person who didn't "care about the cause" to someone who was willing to die for it. I never saw any such transformation from Rey.

Likewise, Cassian is a much deeper character than someone like, say, Poe Dameron. Cassian starts off as untrusting and respectful of authority, even if he fundamentally disagrees with what's being asked of him. You can watch him change as the film progresses into someone that fully puts his trust behind Jyn, without any evidence she is right, simply because it's something he believes in and he's willing to do it, even in defiance of his orders. I don't see any such development in a character like Poe. What does he even do in TFA? He flies around screaming in his X-Wing for most of the film. He's just an empty character.

This is why I feel Rian had such a mountain to climb with the script of TLJ. So many characters need to be deepened and further explored.
 

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
I don't know how some people can say RO is better because it doesn't rely on nostalgia on much when the scene everyone mentions as a favorite is the pointless Vader scene at the end.

It's weird.
Rogue One leans on the other movies harder than an old person who's ready for a wheelchair leans on their walker.
It's not just the fan service. I mean for just about everything.
Then they made things worse with embarrassing shit like Saw. Especially the last part with him. Holy shit. It's like aliens wrote that after watching a self-sacrifice scene in another movie and not understanding it.
 

Nameless

Member
Clever attempt at a retcon but the protagonists fell especially flat for me. I cared more for Finn, Rey, Poe, and BB8 in the first 15 minutes than Jyn and her compadres throughout Rogue One. Mendelsohn is the film's main saving grace and that has more to with the performance than how his character was written. Mads was completely and utterly wasted, though, and the payoff for
Jyn and Galen's reunion
was down right terrible. Which is big since the lead up is the meat of the first act.

Beyond that the pacing is many many steps down from TFA's and the set pieces, while decent, fail to reach TFA's highs. And aside from some stunning Jedha landscapes early on, EP7 is far more interesting visually and better shot as whole.

Honestly I'm having trouble thinking of anything Rogue One actually does better than The Force Awakens.
 
Be as snarky as you need to, but I see much more depth in TFA with the ideas of generational violence, failure to live up to the expectations of your parents, and morality vs. duty than in the straight up hero's journey told in ANH.

Is it Citizen Kane? No. I never claimed it was. But compared to ANH, you bet your ass TFA is deeper than that movie ever was.

Ok, but on the other hand, Southland Tales is also a very deep movie compared to A New Hope or Mad Max: Fury Road. A film being shallow is not implicitly a problem, it depends on what the film maker was trying to accomplish and how well they executed their vision. Some of the simplest, purest movies are also some of the best. A New Hope's simplicity is part of why it works as well as it does. It is not a complex movie, but it is a high quality distillation of a scifi adventure film.
 

Moff

Member
I think TFA was way better
mostly because of the characters, I really like Rey and Kylo and I am very excited what they will do with them. but it also had the better jokes, action scenes and emotions.

Rogue One was basically a failed promise.
What I hoped the Spinoff movies would be was that they would be clever little movies with their own interesting stories that just happened to take place in the star wars univere. So basically Rogue one should have been a War Movie, but it wasn't. It was a star wars movie just without the Saga myth, but it failed to replace that with anything interesting. I thought it was entertaining in the movie theater but on rewatch it fell apart completely. I have seen TFA three times by now and still really liked it and I am very excited about The Last Jedi.

no seriously, the best thing we have gotten from Rogue One was Diego Luna mentioning several times in interviews how much he would love to touch Jabba's belly.
 

Cuburt

Member
I agree.

It had a better execution of it's tone and themes. Much better world building (ironically, for a film that actually must be strung to ANH, and even the PT, far more than TFA had to). I think it also executed much better being a side story (which is much better suited to being something different than the mainline films) than TFA did at being a mainline film paying tribute to the past while trying to add something new.

Even the approach of paying tribute to the past felt better in RO than TFA in that many new character like BB-8 is mostly R2 in slightly different form, Maz is a not-Yoda-not-Jedi that owns a Cantina, and Snoke is not-Sheev-not-Sith that still likes creepy holograms. Even if you prefer these character to their obvious influences, we get almost nothing in the way of development in the film that sets them apart, besides the potential for them to be different in the future. On the other hand, Rogue One set out to make a C3PO type character, but everything about the character is different from him; he can fight, he is as resourceful as R2, his personality is very different and manages to be a comic relief without being pandering or goofy (which is the go-to comic tone TFA taps on for every character that is humorous), and his design is so different from previous main characters while also having a clear influence from past character designers which makes the character both memorable and feel like it actually fits in this universe from what we've seen established.

That bring me to how both films handled old characters. Tarkin was a nice addition with a sizable and logical inclusion, despite how some may feel able the CG. Leia was similarly a good character to end the film on to tie it to ANH. Smaller characters felt like they fit in their inclusions and added to the credibility of this story about the rebels. Vader's final scene was great but that leads me to the main "misses", which I think Vader's scene on Mustafar felt poor and mainly unnecessary. Also Ponda Boba and Dr. Evazan felt unnecessary but forgivable for how brief it was. With TFA, I can go on and on about how underutilized to poorly handled Leia and Han were, especially with how involved they were will the plot. Their characterization felt poor, especially in their attempt (or lack their of) to fill in the audience on what had happened to their beloved characters in the last 30 years or even giving good justification for doing what they are doing. Plus, the death of Han, while the story beat itself wasn't so terrible, it didn't feel earned. The interaction between Han and Ben didn't do much to really show anything unique about their (obviously strained) relationship, how it became what it was, why Ben would be willing to go as far as to kill his own father, it was an insulting way to invoke an old character to give more credibility to a new one. They should have paid more attention to Ben's story and his relationship with his parents, if they wanted Ben to be as significant as he is. Even the minor interaction between Leia and Han felt like a missed opportunity and poor knowing that Han would have his send off only minutes after reuniting them. Then even the minor point of handling Chewie hardly made Chewie feel like a character and more like a prop. Just because Chewie doesn't have any lines doesn't mean he has no personality, we just get to see it through Han in the OT. Here, Chewie doesn't really even have that rapport with Han and Leia hugging Rey after Han dies while ignoring Chewie is a really poor oversight.

In regards to the world building, the First Order troopers barely add anything new. Their design weighs very heavy on the original Storm Trooper design, so much so that at a quick glance, they appear to be the exact same. Even the internet seemed to give more personality to the "Tr8-tor" trooper that fought Finn than J.J. Abram cared to. Why does this random trooper remember Finn? Why does he have a weapon that can combat a lightsaber which is likely an ultra rare Jedi weapon for the last ~50 years?! Rogue One has the Shore Troopers and Death Troopers, both visually unique and with a unique purpose.

I could get into what I liked about both films, but I preferred the positives in Rogue One more for what it was trying to do. In that regard, they are different films, with different goals, so I see why people have very different opinions on that basis.

I see a lot of people criticizing Rogue One's characters but not only was this a ensemble film (which always tend to lean more on archetypes than characterization) but it didn't have the same benefit of leaning on old characters as well as new characters who we already know will be sticking around in sequels, meaning people give them the benefit of the doubt going forward since they can always be developed later. In fact, most of the character development in Star Wars for any character has happened over the course of several films, if it happens at all. If you criticize Rogue One for a lack of characterization, then you need to look at TFA or any other film that introduces a character and the amount of development that character gets in the duration of that single film and make a fair comparison. TFA also leans heavily on the mystery of it's characters in the absence of actual characterization. Maybe J.J. Abrams has a good payoff in mind for several of these characters, but the potential of good characterization =/= characterization. Even the development of characters we already know like Leia and Han felt poor and they not only had a great reason to develop the characters (with the time jump and their integration to the plot and main characters), they had all the OT to use as a jumping off point. I would argue that the point of Rogue One was more about world building and a discrete story than a character probe, but that's my own personal take. Even when you get character building moments of Jyn, Saw, Cassian, or Chirrut and Baze, you get a better look into what that character represents in their place in the universe and their relation to the Rebels or the Empire. Even Bodhi's journey tells us a little more of what it means to be a defector from the Empire than Finn's defection does, he's treated as an enemy by almost everyone who meet him and has to earn their trust, to the point where he is even tortured, while everyone just believes Finn is sick of their shit. Finn is just a prime example of how poorly the characters are developed in TFA when they actually get development; he is raised as a Stormtrooper but has a sudden change of heart on the actual battlefield and barely seems to have combat experience/training (yet he knows how to shoot Tie cannons well) then he works in sanitation but knows enough about the weakness of the entire Starkiller base that his knowledge is able to help bring it down? yeahok.gif At least with Bodhi, his expertise is with his role as a pilot and what a pilot would be exposed to. Even K2SO as a former Imperial droid that has been memory wiped and reprogrammed works as a character who makes for a good spy with his skillset and appearance, even if his memory makes it so he's bumbling around when he has to actually talk to Stormtroopers and play the part. It's even in the subtle way he's walks compared to other Imperial droids. That's great characterization that works.

I think over time, Rogue One will be looked back with even more favor of what it accomplished and TFA just won't. As a quote unquote Star Wars film, it certainly will rank among the top of the mainline trilogy, but taking them on their own merits, Rogue One is bolder, even though neither can quite be removed from the context of the Star Wars franchise to truly view them in a bubble. Dealing with Jedis and the Skywalker saga will always make some people hold TFA in higher esteem, but Rogue One deserves the credit more, imo.
 
I see a lot of people criticizing Rogue One's characters but not only was this a ensemble film (which always tend to lean more on archetypes than characterization)

It's not an ensemble film. Ensemble films should have roughly equal importance or screen time. That is not the case for Rogue One. Jyn is the main character in this. The entire emotional story is hers alone and the main plot revolves around her. She is the main drive for the plot with Cassian coming in second. The others not so much. They either do nothing or do very little.

Another trait of an ensemble film is the interaction between characters. Jyn and Cassian interact. Jyn interacts with K2SO and all of the rest. But does K2SO have a sit down with Baze or Chirrut? What about Bodhi? Baze and Chirrut have something going on, but they have a relationship prior to joining the group. Do they develop a meaningful relationship with Bodhi or Cassian or K2SO? Cassian is mostly seen giving orders to the rest of them while his more emotional scenes are with Jyn.

(which always tend to lean more on archetypes than characterization)

Not really. Besides, the characters in R1 aren't archetypal, they're just flat.


Even when you get character building moments of Jyn, Saw, Cassian, or Chirrut and Baze, you get a better look into what that character represents in their place in the universe and their relation to the Rebels or the Empire.

Only Jyn and Cassian get character building moments. The other characters have flat arcs. Even Bodhi. His change happens prior to the movie and we're told about it, not shown.

At least with Bodhi, his expertise is with his role as a pilot and what a pilot would be exposed to.
One thing that irked me is that Bodhi is a pilot and he barely ever flies. I think Cassian and K2SO are the ones who do most of the flying.

I do agree with all of your TFA points, though.
 

Tylercrat

Banned
I didn't like Rogue One at all. I liked the Force Awakens a lot.

Though take my opinions with a grain of salt because I like the prequels significantly more than the originals.
 

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KayMote

Member
Can't say I agree - the first half of Rogue One is unbearably boring and structurally incohesive. Also, the introductions to the flat characters (can't remember one single name apart from Jin) are mostly uneffective. It definitely picks up after that and has some great action setpiceses, but I still think most people just hold it that high because of the 'WOW! LOOK AT THIS BRUTAL DARTH VADER' moment.

I like both movies, but the characters of TFA alone transform it into a much more interesting experience - they are fun and gripping and the whole story has a lot of more mystery at its core.
 

Onemic

Member
Rgoue One is a mess tbh.

The production issues are quite clear when watching the film. Forest Whitakers character serves absolutely no purpose and is clear was originally meant to have a much bigger role. The main character is an empty shell of a character that the writers didnt really know what to do with. Shes supposed to be a person that doesnt give a shit about anything, but they didnt really know how to transition her into a person that eventually begins to care about the world around her. Instead she sticks with her fuck everything schtick until she meets her Dad and somehow now has a purpose just because he told her to do something.

None of the characters are really fleshed out and the story itself is incredibly flimsy. TFA wasnt all that great but it is leagues better than Rogue One could hope to be because at least its story and characters feel much more fleshed out.
 
First half of Rogue One is rather poor. Cutting all over the place to where the characters are barely that. The Vader line about choking was awful. However, a lot of the surrounding stuff was done well.

TFA had good quality generally throughout with far better characters​. The third act falters though, and the raknar or whatever sequence is horrid.

I liked them both.
 
They're both outstanding for different reasons.

The Force Awakens did a wonderful job of fanning away the stench of the prequels, with writing, performances, and effects that were well above par compared to the previous three films. TFA introduced us to likable new heroes and a complex and well characterized villain. More than a desperately needed palate cleanser, it's also a mission statement that assures us the creatives who are now responsible for the franchise are in the right headspace to tell compelling Star Wars stories for years to come. Most importantly, TFA is damn entertaining: a funny and suspenseful and exhilarating pulp adventure. The soaring Millennium Falcon, the X-Wings kicking up spray, Kylo Ren's chaotic lightsaber... The look and sound and feel of the movie is just right. Everything has weight and zing again. TFA reminded the world what Star Wars was all about before Lucas lost sight of the need to collaborate with great artists on the core elements of his movies, beyond the art design and music.

Rogue One is a successful attempt to enrich the Original Trilogy with an adjacent story. Its deviation from the typical Star Wars template in terms of structure, cinematography, score, and tone was rather bold, and I think it paid off. Now the Death Star's flaw has a fitting and believable explanation, and its destruction takes on a new triumphant note as Galen Erso's legacy and the rebels' sacrifices are vindicated. Plus, Vader got two absolutely iconic scenes that aren't just gratuitously awesome, but actually contribute to the character by revealing a new key location with strong ties to his past, his ability to survive outside his armor, and a glimpse of why he's considered such a fearsome figure throughout the Empire. Rogue One finds interesting vantage points to show new sides of a universe that many of us know very well. So much of it is familiar but fresh. And there are so many other fascinating periods of Star Wars history that could be approached in a similar way. Ben Kenobi's exile, Vader's Jedi hunts, even OT events from a purely Imperial perspective.

I love both movies. It's stupid to draw direct comparisons between films that have two very different roles in the series.

I despaired a little reading the responses even on page one, and then came across this, great post my man. Glad to see there are others that appreciate the exhilarating parts of TFA, JJ Abrahams nails breakneck pacing in films and I do feel that TFA benefits greatly from this and modernises the series for a whole new generation. The MF fight was great to watch.

What you wrotePerfectly encapsulates my feelings on two Star Wars films.
 

Kin5290

Member
I agree. TFA is meant to be family friendly whereas R1 is more "adult". Being an adult, I prefer the more mature take.
Rogue One is a mature Star Wars Movie in the sense that 90s comics are "Mature" because of all of the gratuitous sex and violence.

Characters dying isn't "dark" if you can't give a shit about any of the characters.

Really, Han's futile sacrifice makes TFA the more "mature" movie by far.
 

Figboy79

Aftershock LA
I love Rogue One, but where are the actual characters? Who are these people? Why should I care about their sacrifice to the rebellion? Jyn probably has the most development, but the rest of the crew is forgettable. The Force Awakens focuses on a small cast of characters, but the core trio of Rey, Finn, and Kylo Ren feel more developed to me than the entire 7 character crew of Rogue One.

Of course that doesn't make Rogue One a bad movie, and I very much loved it, but the fact that TFA is pushing the Star Wars lore forward, instead of filling in the blanks makes me enjoy it a little more. Visually, both movies are gorgeous. The narratives of both are strong, and I think their very different goals were executed wonderfully, but I think TFA has the stronger overall reaction from me.

I'm invested in the stories of Finn, Rey, Poe, and Kylo. I want to know what's next for them. Their story is genuinely interesting, and the setup from Force Awakens being as solid as it was is why. Rogue One is a complete story, but it was very weak in the character department. It was strong in delivering moments, and I won't list them here because I don't want to spoil them for people that may pop in that haven't seen the movie, but there are fantastic moments in the film. Moments pieced together between weak characterization. Overall, it's a fun movie, but it's personally not a better film than TFA to me.

With all of that shit said, I was just glad to get two years of really good Star Wars movies to enjoy. I'm stoked for Episode 8, not so much for Han Solo, but as a Star Wars fan, it's just really nice to see the franchise delivering some genuinely fun, entertaining movies.
 

JB1981

Member
Cuburt's post is a great post, and I hope people read it.

I mean, ultimately I disagree with his ranking, but that's a really well-reasoned/argued explanation.



What

It was a pretty good post. I think he's misremembering how much Finn knows about the inner workings of SK base though. I recall him not really knowing much once they get on the planet and Han scolds him for it. This is the the scene where the "We'll use the force line came in."

And Finn knows how to fire a weapon he just got shell shocked when he saw innocents die at the hands of his fellow soldiers (and his friends die in front of him). I'm petty sure the writers were well aware of the psychological contradictions with Finn and made a conscious choice to avoid it because it's Star Wars and they wanted to keep it light and give people a good time.
 

Davide

Member
The idea that Force Awakens has more developed characters than Rogue One is kind of ridiculous to me.

TFA's characters are more likeable than R1's. Finn, Rey, and Poe, definitely likeable and well acted. But:
  • Finn doesn't make much sense. He's been raised by the First Order as a soldier his entire life yet he seems completely normal society and not at all inclined to violence. There's nothing about him that says trained and brainwashed by the First Order for 20 years.
  • You can't say that Jyn's motivations are less clear than Rey's. Rey's motivation to become a Jedi is unclear. Jyn wants to continue with what her father wanted to take down the Death Star.
  • Poe is barely a character.
Kylo Ren is the best new character of the film, the others are simply brought to life by their actors. Rogue One's characters feel morel like real people to me. Chirrut was a great addition. There were plenty of emotional moments such as when Galen dies.

Also K2SO > all other droids.

For me it's:

1. The Empire Strikes Back
2. Star Wars
3. Rogue One
4. The Force Awakens
5. Return of the Jedi

6. The Phantom Menace
7. Attack of the Clones
8. Revenge of the Sith

IV/R1/TFA are pretty interchangeable but definitely above ROTJ.
 

Cuburt

Member
It's not an ensemble film. Ensemble films should have roughly equal importance or screen time. That is not the case for Rogue One. Jyn is the main character in this. The entire emotional story is hers alone and the main plot revolves around her. She is the main drive for the plot with Cassian coming in second. The others not so much. They either do nothing or do very little.

Another trait of an ensemble film is the interaction between characters. Jyn and Cassian interact. Jyn interacts with K2SO and all of the rest. But does K2SO have a sit down with Baze or Chirrut? What about Bodhi? Baze and Chirrut have something going on, but they have a relationship prior to joining the group. Do they develop a meaningful relationship with Bodhi or Cassian or K2SO? Cassian is mostly seen giving orders to the rest of them while his more emotional scenes are with Jyn.



Not really. Besides, the characters in R1 aren't archetypal, they're just flat.




Only Jyn and Cassian get character building moments. The other characters have flat arcs. Even Bodhi. His change happens prior to the movie and we're told about it, not shown.

One thing that irked me is that Bodhi is a pilot and he barely ever flies. I think Cassian and K2SO are the ones who do most of the flying.

I do agree with all of your TFA points, though.

I disagree that all ensemble films should have equal importance to screen time since that rarely seems to be the case, in my experience. Rogue One has far more emphasis on being an ensemble than simply being Jyn's story, in the very least because we see how all the main members join the team, how they all end, and their journey in the interim of the time we get to spend with them. That's not to say they all have a character arc, but I'd argue it's not necessary to tell a great story and not necessary to be an ensemble film.

In general, I think most of the modern day nitpicks about how every character must have character arcs, a developed backstory, complex character motivations to be exactly that, nitpicking. Sure you can attempt to cram even more of that stuff into a 2 hour blockbuster, but the main reason people seem so hypersensitive to certain things like that lacking, is because they typically have always been lacking for blockbuster type films. If a side character in an arthouse drama didn't have much in the way of a unqiue character arc or lacked a fleshed out back story on why they decided to betray the main character, most people wouldn't be raging online about the exclusion, they'd just take the story for what it is and maybe a few film critics might make note of it if they felt it detracted from the character, but it doesn't become the main thesis for why someone doesn't like a film. If Darth Vader was a character that was introduced in this millennium, he'd be criticized as being "flat", as you put it, and nowhere near as well regarded as a villain and a character as he's come to be.

Rogue One is something that really reminded me a lot of Seven Samurai, and in that sense, if Rogue One is not ensemble film, I don't see how Seven Samurai is an ensemble film. Many of the main characters are archetypes and don't have much in the way of an "arc" or characterization. The story in Seven Samurai could be said to be more about the villagers in general and their relationship to the samurai and bandits, similar to how Rogue One could be said to be more about the Rebellion and people's relationship to the Empire across the galaxy. On a somewhat related note, Rogue One also has most of the films protagonists die for a cause greater than themselves making it even more like Seven Samurai. Even Chirrut and Baze have been said to been influenced by characters in The Hidden Fortress, another Kurosawa film. You could argue making Rogue One heavily influenced by Kurosawa, who also heavily influenced George Lucas himself while he made the original Star Wars, makes the tone more in line with what Star Wars embodies than strictly the pulpy sci-fi that J. J. Abrams was more enamored with, but maybe that is my own personal bias shining through.

Also Bodhi is a cargo pilot, not a Tie Fighter pilot. His skill in combat flight scenarios would be limited, which makes his use more realistic than Finn, for instance.

Why is it a contest?
I think it comes down to a debate on the creative direction of the franchise more than anything. Most of the same people are going to be behind the scenes making the films like ILM and the Lucasfilm Story Group. They'll be giving the majority of creative input/advice/consulting, to my understanding, outside of, of course, the directors and Kathleen Kennedy making the final calls. The main difference, therefore are the actual script writers and directors.
 

Magwik

Banned
In general, I think most of the modern day nitpicks about how every character must have character arcs, a developed backstory, complex character motivations to be exactly that, nitpicking
DRSovrk.gif


Those aren't nitpicks, they are the fundamental building blocks of every movie, TV show, and fictional story ever. Even Bay's Transformers have character arcs, motivations, etc.
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
I agree.

It had a better execution of it's tone and themes. Much better world building (ironically, for a film that actually must be strung to ANH, and even the PT, far more than TFA had to). I think it also executed much better being a side story (which is much better suited to being something different than the mainline films) than TFA did at being a mainline film paying tribute to the past while trying to add something new.

Even the approach of paying tribute to the past felt better in RO than TFA in that many new character like BB-8 is mostly R2 in slightly different form, Maz is a not-Yoda-not-Jedi that owns a Cantina, and Snoke is not-Sheev-not-Sith that still likes creepy holograms. Even if you prefer these character to their obvious influences, we get almost nothing in the way of development in the film that sets them apart, besides the potential for them to be different in the future. On the other hand, Rogue One set out to make a C3PO type character, but everything about the character is different from him; he can fight, he is as resourceful as R2, his personality is very different and manages to be a comic relief without being pandering or goofy (which is the go-to comic tone TFA taps on for every character that is humorous), and his design is so different from previous main characters while also having a clear influence from past character designers which makes the character both memorable and feel like it actually fits in this universe from what we've seen established.

That bring me to how both films handled old characters. Tarkin was a nice addition with a sizable and logical inclusion, despite how some may feel able the CG. Leia was similarly a good character to end the film on to tie it to ANH. Smaller characters felt like they fit in their inclusions and added to the credibility of this story about the rebels. Vader's final scene was great but that leads me to the main "misses", which I think Vader's scene on Mustafar felt poor and mainly unnecessary. Also Ponda Boba and Dr. Evazan felt unnecessary but forgivable for how brief it was. With TFA, I can go on and on about how underutilized to poorly handled Leia and Han were, especially with how involved they were will the plot. Their characterization felt poor, especially in their attempt (or lack their of) to fill in the audience on what had happened to their beloved characters in the last 30 years or even giving good justification for doing what they are doing. Plus, the death of Han, while the story beat itself wasn't so terrible, it didn't feel earned. The interaction between Han and Ben didn't do much to really show anything unique about their (obviously strained) relationship, how it became what it was, why Ben would be willing to go as far as to kill his own father, it was an insulting way to invoke an old character to give more credibility to a new one. They should have paid more attention to Ben's story and his relationship with his parents, if they wanted Ben to be as significant as he is. Even the minor interaction between Leia and Han felt like a missed opportunity and poor knowing that Han would have his send off only minutes after reuniting them. Then even the minor point of handling Chewie hardly made Chewie feel like a character and more like a prop. Just because Chewie doesn't have any lines doesn't mean he has no personality, we just get to see it through Han in the OT. Here, Chewie doesn't really even have that rapport with Han and Leia hugging Rey after Han dies while ignoring Chewie is a really poor oversight.

In regards to the world building, the First Order troopers barely add anything new. Their design weighs very heavy on the original Storm Trooper design, so much so that at a quick glance, they appear to be the exact same. Even the internet seemed to give more personality to the "Tr8-tor" trooper that fought Finn than J.J. Abram cared to. Why does this random trooper remember Finn? Why does he have a weapon that can combat a lightsaber which is likely an ultra rare Jedi weapon for the last ~50 years?! Rogue One has the Shore Troopers and Death Troopers, both visually unique and with a unique purpose.

I could get into what I liked about both films, but I preferred the positives in Rogue One more for what it was trying to do. In that regard, they are different films, with different goals, so I see why people have very different opinions on that basis.

I see a lot of people criticizing Rogue One's characters but not only was this a ensemble film (which always tend to lean more on archetypes than characterization) but it didn't have the same benefit of leaning on old characters as well as new characters who we already know will be sticking around in sequels, meaning people give them the benefit of the doubt going forward since they can always be developed later. In fact, most of the character development in Star Wars for any character has happened over the course of several films, if it happens at all. If you criticize Rogue One for a lack of characterization, then you need to look at TFA or any other film that introduces a character and the amount of development that character gets in the duration of that single film and make a fair comparison. TFA also leans heavily on the mystery of it's characters in the absence of actual characterization. Maybe J.J. Abrams has a good payoff in mind for several of these characters, but the potential of good characterization =/= characterization. Even the development of characters we already know like Leia and Han felt poor and they not only had a great reason to develop the characters (with the time jump and their integration to the plot and main characters), they had all the OT to use as a jumping off point. I would argue that the point of Rogue One was more about world building and a discrete story than a character probe, but that's my own personal take. Even when you get character building moments of Jyn, Saw, Cassian, or Chirrut and Baze, you get a better look into what that character represents in their place in the universe and their relation to the Rebels or the Empire. Even Bodhi's journey tells us a little more of what it means to be a defector from the Empire than Finn's defection does, he's treated as an enemy by almost everyone who meet him and has to earn their trust, to the point where he is even tortured, while everyone just believes Finn is sick of their shit. Finn is just a prime example of how poorly the characters are developed in TFA when they actually get development; he is raised as a Stormtrooper but has a sudden change of heart on the actual battlefield and barely seems to have combat experience/training (yet he knows how to shoot Tie cannons well) then he works in sanitation but knows enough about the weakness of the entire Starkiller base that his knowledge is able to help bring it down? yeahok.gif At least with Bodhi, his expertise is with his role as a pilot and what a pilot would be exposed to. Even K2SO as a former Imperial droid that has been memory wiped and reprogrammed works as a character who makes for a good spy with his skillset and appearance, even if his memory makes it so he's bumbling around when he has to actually talk to Stormtroopers and play the part. It's even in the subtle way he's walks compared to other Imperial droids. That's great characterization that works.

I think over time, Rogue One will be looked back with even more favor of what it accomplished and TFA just won't. As a quote unquote Star Wars film, it certainly will rank among the top of the mainline trilogy, but taking them on their own merits, Rogue One is bolder, even though neither can quite be removed from the context of the Star Wars franchise to truly view them in a bubble. Dealing with Jedis and the Skywalker saga will always make some people hold TFA in higher esteem, but Rogue One deserves the credit more, imo.
Fantastic post.
 
Being fair Rogue One is one of the better Star Wars films and captures the magic perfectly. TFA may be a decente flick but sucks as a Star Wars movie. The prequels are better Star Wars films than TFA...even the new Star Trek movies are better star wars films.
 
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